Cognitive Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

06 Feb 2020


janina, stevelee, JF, Jennie, MichaelC, kirkwood


<LisaSeemanKest> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y_HOyuMKltOQoZr0Gk7hMQXi3Jd8Mc5fyr-XkH7kZQY/edit#heading=h.8h5xei6fw2my


<scribe> scribe: Jennie


<Rachael_> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage

Rachael: We are continuing to work on the design patterns and we will discuss them later in the meeting.
... Steve, you have the first item.

Steve: I thought I completed it last week.
... We added 1 new pattern which came up: triggers.
... I also added one from EA into the missing patterns.
... The rest are at the end of the patterns document.

Rachael: The next one is the issue paper, and were there extra patterns there.

Steve: The trigger 1 actually came from the mental health paper.
... I did not add any others.

<kirkwood> didn’t find anything on trigger either

Consider adding noises and visuals that may result in phantom visuals/audio or promote hallucinations to "Help people avoid content that might trigger sensitivities"

Also, make it clear when content has already been viewed – to help avoid perseveration on particular media, and help those who's memory challenges add to cognitive fatigue (not disable it, just a visual format similar to visited link)

<Rachael_> Jennie: Listed thoughts above. Not sure if these should be new or added to new patterns.

Lisa: do you want us to discuss these now or later?

Rachael: yes, let's capture them and come back to them
... John K do you have any others?

John K: I do not

Rachael: OK great
... 2nd action is to request a mental health professional to review. Lisa, that is assigned to you.

Lisa: I asked people that sounded interested, but they did not get back to me.
... I will follow up, or find other people.
... If anyone else knows anybody...

John K: I have reached out to neuropsych people at Mount Sinai, however, I have not yet had a formal response.

Rachael: Anyone else that can help with this?

John K: I'm wondering if there is any way I can get a 2 sentence email about the importance of this for the W3C? This will help highlight the importance of the task

Lisa: Do you want an email from me or Rachael?

<Rachael_> ACTION: Lisa and Rachael to write email for John to forward to mental health professional

John K: Yes, that would be fine. State your role, and then 2 short sentences. That would really help.

<trackbot> Created ACTION-322 - And rachael to write email for john to forward to mental health professional [on Lisa Seeman-Kestenbaum - due 2020-02-13].

Rachael: Anything else in regards to the mental health paper?

Lisa: I did a quick review of the pattern that was written from triggers, and tried to look for research to back it up.
... I saw very conflicting papers on whether or not it was helpful. We really need to be careful with this.
... If it is not helpful, we don't want to recommend it.
... Before we move forward to publishing, we need more eyes on it.
... We need to make sure we get more review.
... I have put in the missing design pattern about trigger patterns the research I found.

Steve: yes, we want to be clear that there is research.
... Are they all based on research?

Lisa: Yes, and the new ones have research.
... and it is a consensus system, so we have people with cognitive disabilities reviewing as well.
... That is what we are missing with the mental health.
... We can write based on other people's research.
... There will always be people who feel it is not necessary.
... but they don't need it.

Rachael: Lisa, do you think we need to write the missing design patterns, or do we wait for research?

Lisa: the editorial aspects we can do, but bear in mind that we haven't had the same validation process that we have with the other ones.

Steve: maybe we should hold them pending a bit longer.

Lisa: or state that they are at risk.

Rachael: That seems like a good idea.

Lisa: The other things were less likely to hurt anyone.
... For example long lists for those that don't know how to spell something.

Rachael: the next item is the section on policy, and we will review that next week. If you have not reviewed, please do so this week

Steve: was that the fragment of section 6?

Rachael: Yes
... The next action is for John K, and it is the quotes for personas

<Rachael_> https://docs.google.com/document/d/17win0Z-d_wVdMHCZqHG2N4ExdhknaU6DpJmABR-F-58/edit#heading=h.2tf5eysmtnv5

John K: The quotes from personas: I don't see my comment on this

Rachael: Did you put your comment directly into the document?

John K: are you seeing any comments?

Rachael: I am not

John K: I need to work on this, then, because I'm not sure why there are not any comments on it

Rachael: I do see an example quote under "Tom, TBI survivor"
... let me know if you have trouble with this document. We don't want you to have to do any rework

John K: I would like to have a quick working call with someone on this

Steve: I think we can have a quick call

EA: My hand is up, because I agree that doing this verbally would be helpful.
... I'm happy to scribe to ensure it gets written down.

Rachael: Would the editor's call work?

EA: yes

John K: Yes

EA: I looked it the other day, and they were ones we had in the MOOC

Rachael: OK
... next is the WCAG 2.2 update

<Rachael_> Jennie: Steve and I worked on revisions on language.I worked with a communications professional in the office to resolve concerns about the mechanism for satisfying the proposed SC in the language. I put the alternate language in the document to show them what it would look like.

<Rachael_> ...They didn't feel that would work. I asked for an exception for what they were citing. They said it was unneeded. They left it open for consideration and there are a few edits but there was no objections.

<Rachael_> Steve: I got the impression that its inthe same track as Accessible Authentication

Rachael: I walked out with that impression as well
... An update on mine is that it is no where near as far a long as John R's and Jennie's. I need to make some revisions.
... I will send the revisions to the COGA list
... There are a lot of alternative ways to mark it as important vs making it visible.

I should be able to send that out this weekend.

Steve: The one I am working on with John k, there are comments in the document. John K - if you could review the comments in the document.
... There are no comments in the survey. will it be on the agenda?

Rachael: Yes, it should be on the agenda.

<Rachael_> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Upcoming_agendas

Steve: It would be great if we could get that one in as a 3rd.

Rachael: Remind me the current name of it?

Steve: I'm not sure if what is on the agenda is the same as on the document
... Multistep review before submission

Rachael: It looks like February 11: Confirmation Before Submission is on the discussion

Steve: Does this mean the survey will have results on it?

Rachael: They usually send it out today, which will mean people will comment on it starting this weekend.

Steve: ok

Lisa: can you forward the link to the survey to the COGA list?

Rachael: Yes, happy to do so

Steve: I will go through the comments that are in it for now. John K, then if you want to wait and check the survey

John K: I think it may be easier before the survey

Steve: OK

Rachael: Does anyone have an update for David's or John R?
... oh, the authentication one has gone forward

Steve: I think John's is going forward in the next draft

Rachael: I believe that is all our actions. Any others?

Discuss any missing patterns from the reviews

Rachael: We have the trigger patterns and the 2 Jennie suggested

<Rachael_> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k0QpMa2XKB4UIEJKjL98y7Dw7vcbtC41skRmrexGs6M/edit#heading=h.qqgz8tvr0tyj

Steve: I popped them into the missing patterns

<stevelee> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k0QpMa2XKB4UIEJKjL98y7Dw7vcbtC41skRmrexGs6M/edit#heading=h.atl9j0yw9l5v

Rachael: Did you put them at the bottom?

Steve: My link should take you directly to them.

Rachael: Lisa, do you want to lead this?

Lisa: As I understand it, the only real missing pattern, we will look if we can edit the missing one in.
... We had the trigger one, which was not anywhere.
... The rest we plan to edit in.
... Then there are Jennie's 2 new points.
...1: consider adding noise and visuals that have phantom things
... we will need research on that

Janina: Can you say more about that?

Lisa: We have a draft issue paper on mental health. From that has come suggestions for new patterns.
... One was help people avoid things that may trigger sensitivities.
... I made some changes.
... Jennie suggested add noise and visuals that might result in phantom visuals/audio or promote halluncinations

<Rachael_> Jennie: There are two pieces from my clinical experience. Sometimes audio that happens frequently like a repeated visuals or a cell phone ringing can keep repeating for people with TBI. I think there are additional needs to be vetted

Lisa: That is exactly why we need more people that can review
... We need visuals and sounds that trigger them

Janina: I would encourage you to stick to problem statements until it is clearly defined.

Lisa: yes

Janina: I don't want to jump too quickly to solving it, until you are sure that the problem is clearly identified.
... media is jumping up again in W3C and is something that APA will be working on

Rachael: We had some conversations in this group that even though the mental health paper wasn't ready to be published
... we were going to put the patterns into the design pattern. I'm wondering if we delay some of these until we have more informaiton.

Steve: I think that is fine

Lisa: I think there are 2 things being confused: adding the patterns, and editing things into the patterns.
... editing things into the patterns, we might be ok with, because it might just be looking at the same thing we were discussing, with a broader view.
... If we are saying keep the user information safe, it helps
... We already had it, we just want to word it keeping in mind people with mental health issues.
... They are not substantive changes, just more sensitively written.
... I think this is really important, the phantom visuals and audio. Let's try and find out more about that.
... And back up what we are saying. So we can either not include that pattern on triggers, mark it at risk, or have it added to the list of things.

Rachael: Putting it in but marking it at risk?

Lisa: yes

Steve: I had not heard of that before, is there anything that deals with flashing lights.
... I wonder if the two might be dealt with in a similar way?

<LisaSeemanKest> do we want to keep this as a pattern with atan at risk

<Rachael_> Jennie: I was also going to say that flashing is in WCAG unless Steve is talking about it in a different way. A flashing light in a GIF or Movie scene which is different. The current SC addresses seizures and there is a very specific timing. Even if it passes that test are you asking if it still causes some individuals issues?

<Rachael_> Jennie: I was wondering, if videos marked as already viewed, those may get compiled into one. I agree with Janina about waiting until the problem statement and research is there. This is potentially one solution. Not remembering you've already seen it could be in several issues. It is not just to trigger a memory or repetition but some people don't remember due to mental health condition and repeatedly watch it. I think its hard to define those out but I agree

<Rachael_> ...that it is some work to tease out some issue and use some of the research language to make it more concrete before we write the patterns.

Janina: That is extremely helpful, Jennie. I want to point you towards where some of the problems might be.
... The composer, the Beatles, whoever has made a lot of money in music, tunes that go over in your head
... for the things you see on
... the things you see on screen

Steve: You did mean specifically media, correct?

<Rachael_> Jennie: The one that sticks in my mind is 9/11 in US. The difficulty for some individuals with cognitive disabilities. Each time they saw the video, it felt new to them. Felt under attack.

<Rachael_> ...didn't understand it was something that happened only once.

<Rachael_> ...I think there is a way to qualify some controls around it. I agree its a goal but what if the content in the ad is what sets you off. Example: Movies about 9/11 would then play those clips. Its a risk. Its present. I'm not saying we can solve it but I Think the goal of hte design patterns is to present issues.

Lisa: I think the truth is somewhere in between. The issue paper discusses the issue. The patterns is a potential solution
... It could be telling someone something as simple as avoid doing this.
... On a very basic level, we have had Jennie and Steve review the papers, is that correct?

Steve: yes

Lisa: My second question is we were going to do a review of all the personas and verify that there were patterns. Steve you did that.

Steve: The list at the bottom of the patterns is everything I came up with.

Lisa: did anyone else review it?

EA: I think several of us went through the personas.
... I'm not sure about the patterns.

Lisa: yes, we went one way, but did we go in reverse?

Rachael: Yes, I think we did that.

EA: I think the other issue we could have is having too many.
... The ISO has so many, it is unbelievable

Rachael: This can go to the editor's call

possibility of a subtitle track to videos to support people with cognitive and learning disabilities

Rachael: Something that came up as Lisa and I were reviewing the patterns, we have things that explains issues for those with autism and cognitive disabilities to interpret emotions
... we have nothing which covers the same problem for multimedia.
... The non-concrete aspects of multimedia.
... Would it be worth recommending a track that could support this.
... Janina has brought this up for APA

John F: The track attribute in HTML 5 can do this

Janina: Can I do this more systematically?

JF: Yes

janina: If we find something new, different, the APA is open to this
... it could be as soon as next week in the APA call.
... I would like to clarify we are talking about media, audio/visual, and we want to say something about this that the individual needs additional information.

Lisa: yes, and the example is for people on the spectrum who don't understand body language, for instance.

Janina: so you are saying yes.

Lisa: yes

Steve: and we want to say programmatically determined

Janina: I am trying to distinguish it between static content

<janina> http://www.w3.org/TR/media-accessibility-reqs/

Janina: Here is what happened - this document, I think what you need is already there.

<janina> http://www.w3.org/TR/media-accessibility-reqs/#cognitive-disabilities

Janina: Section 1 talks about different disability groups.
... This section is specific to people with cognitive disabilities.
... And what you are discussing is in the problem statement

<janina> http://www.w3.org/TR/media-accessibility-reqs/#text-video-description

Janina: I think what you are asking for is not subtitles (they have a technical meaning)
... They are about not understanding the language in the video
... That is different from captions, because they are different. They are closely related.
... What you are asking for, is what the blind community has used for a long time - audio description.
... Or called video description: describes the video
... there are 2 ways to deliver the description
...1: in pauses, you have a narrator describe in those spaces
...2: put the descriptions into a text track
... They are all in HTML 5, and they are fully extensible
... And there can be multiple tracks. Including another language
... I may need my video description in French, my captions in French
... it is fully extensible to support all those tracks.

John F: Janina, I think the point you missed is the track element is the way we add these supporting materials.

scribe: There is also "types" - which is constrained.
... The 1 thing you would need to do is ensure you have a type value
... There is captions, there is audio description, but if there is something for a specific user community, could we get a type added

Lisa: That was 1 thing I wanted to say - we need a programmatic way to access the track we need.
... We need the use case. The section in the document is not the use case really given.
... It is not explicit as this use case.
... It says customizable, which is nice, but it doesn't give the use case that there is content visual they are not going to understand
... We have the same problem with the text video description. Good video description is going to have it in.
... If we mix the two up, we may overwhelm those with autism since they would get all of it. Should the text video description be divided into 2
... that might be a slightly different structure. We don't want it created twice, but we want people to choose one, the other, or both

Rachael: Janina and John F: if we come to the meeting on Wednesday, if the technical support is there, we need a way to give people instructions for how to write this
... Is that what can be discussed?

Janina: I think we can support adding another type - that's the first thing to do
... Authoring guidance: yes, I think we can do that, but we need to do some of this here, not at APA
... Maybe we need some disambiguation
... We can file an issue, we have some against HTML now, we are always working on improving.
... Improving the guidance is also something we can do

Rachael: Sounds like we need to continue the conversation here. Are you available next week?

Janina: I can

John F: I can too

John F: In terms of how to author this kind of thing. The DCMP - the folks behind the captioning key, and audio description, is a 3rd party resource to help - we could explore that. I can help with that

Rachael: In that case we will wrap up.

<kirkwood> presewnt+

Rachael: We will also review Justine's work

<Rachael_> rssa make log world

trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Lisa and Rachael to write email for John to forward to mental health professional

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

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Default Present: janina, stevelee, JF, Jennie, MichaelC, kirkwood
Present: janina stevelee JF Jennie MichaelC kirkwood
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Found Date: 06 Feb 2020
People with action items: lisa rachael

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