<scribe> Scribe: Sharron

WCAG Report Tool Update

Brent: Last week we discussed the filtering mechanism, we have had addiitonal discussion since the meeting.

<shawn-backup> proposal "New in WCAG 2.1" -> "Added in WCAG 2.1"

Shawn: When we made the decision, we forgot to look at similar things throughout the site and Eric pointed out how we have addressed WCAG2.1 in other parts of the site

<Brent> +1

<eoncins> +1

<Laura> +1

<shawn-backup> +1

<Helen> +1

<yatil> +1

<Lewis> +1

<hidde> +1

<markpalmer> +1

Change is acepted by the group

WAI Curricula

Daniel: Most people agreed with the Developer module for the second set of curricula materials. Thanks all, we can do a comparison of course offering.

Shadi: For clarification there is also a series of steps related to intro, internmediate and advanced, Not set in stone but we may want to consider how much we want to modularize the topic into these kind of sections.

Daniel: Thanks Shadi, good to remember it is still under consideration and will have some early drafts to comment on.
... there has been the understanding that yes we need extra materials, examples of coourse syllabi, outlines, course offerings, etc. Trying to address the audience of people who are comparing courses to see what might meet their needs.
... I have proposed to offer addiitonal materials to help people select what they actually need, possible certifications, and the learning outcomes and teacher abilities relevant to their own goals. Most in the group seem to be in favor of this.
... we should make some decisions about what is useful. Should we add this? How to balance? Define the scope of additional materials needed.

<shawn-backup> Comparing Course Offerings https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WAI_Curricula/Supporting_Materials/#Comparing_Course_Offerings

Daniel: in the Requirements Analysis we propse to add material for people who are trying to procure accessibility training. Who need to buy a course or hire someone to teach. So we would develop these materials with that in mind and provide guidance to help people choose among various courses.

<yatil> Results of the survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/spra/results#xq3

Shadi: As well, it would help people who are writing RFPs or contracts. So first set of materials is for the people who are creating the courses for training or certification or whatever. Second set is for people who are purchasing training, to help them compare among offerings. Could also use materials to say "I need someone to teach module A, B, etc"
... an issue is that we did not have the audience as a primary one so now that we are cnsidering it, it is how to address the needs of that audience and to what extent.

Estella: I agree it is a great idea and wonder at which point will you make it findable? How will people find the support materials?

Daniel: Maybe including the pointers in the overview page. May decide to include it in a separate section. We can decide how to do this.
... not everyone agrees that we need to cover this purchasing scenario so we would need to make decisions about what to do and how to present it?

Estella: Is the intent to point to exisiting courses everywhere or only in WAI?

Daniel: No, only to generic examples not to existing courses to avoid conflicts.

<shawn-backup> Course Types and Formats https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WAI_Curricula/Supporting_Materials/#Course_Types_and_Formats

Shadi: Maybe the term scenarios would help. We could provide example scenarios such as "here is how the curricula can be used in a university setting, here in an online course, etc"

Estella: To me what you are providing is a Trainer's Guide.

Brent: I would like to hear the persepctive of those who oppose adding this purchasing guidance.

Daniel: People who say not to do is that this is a very broad audience and by developing such a purchasing support, we will lose focus on the main goals to provide instruction to practitioners.

Helen: I am in favor of addiing examples but not for specific examples. If you point to a course that helen made, Estella may be annoyed that her course was not featured. Less about examples of courses and more about materials that can fill the gaps for trainers who are building them.

Daniel: Yes in the spirit of staying vendor neutral, I agree with that approach.

Laura: I am not a trainer and this is not my field. But knowing how long it takes to develop and get these materials online. I feel like if we focua on the backgroound or support materials it will delay the production of the primary goal. So I am leaning toward, not abandoning the support materials, but making sure the priority is to develop the actual curricula first.

Daniel: Yes we need to develop the intermendate curriculm by June and the supports would be written at the same time.

Eric: I was more negative of this particular extension of the resource. My concerns are not addressed by the discussion so far. I have the feeling that the breadth of the audience creates a scope creep and it can be very difficult to get to a satisfactory outcome without a clearly defined focus. I would prefer to focus on the curricula and see what questions people have as it is published and

used.

Daniel: Can we do the excercise now, if you were to decide which specific use cases could we define for the second proposal to meet your objection?

Eric: I don't know enough to pick an audience. I am OK if you choose otherwise, but I would prefer to focus on one thing before expanding.
... someone who wants to choose and selct among training that is aleady a huge and quite varied audience. It is a massive thing to develop properly.

Daniel: Yes that is why we could try to narrow this down.

<shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/teach-advocate/accessibility-training/

Shadi: Absolutely agree with the idea that we need to keep clear focus on the scope. Can we turn this around to say that because it is such a broad audience the need is great to make sure that people know how to use it most effectively.
... what if you wanted to make a presentation to management or something similar. A short guide to how to use the materials might promote wider adoption.

Daniel: I was saying that defintely we need clarification and could include the guidance within the curricula itself.

<yatil> [ If it is only a minor change, I’m ok. I’m OK anyway. ]

Estella: I agree with what Shadi just said, it is important that the trainers know how and why materials are organized the way they are.

<shawn-backup> Sharron: Agree with Estalla that trainers know how the materials are organized. Agree that people in purchasing often don't know what students actually need. So providing that support is importnt.

<shawn-backup> ... Though to Eric's point, maybe good to development more curricula first, then go back to supporting material

<shawn-backup> Keeping focus on curricula. Then go back and do the support.

<Howard> +1 to Sharron's comment

<Howard> i.e. wait until later

<Laura> +1 to wait

Helen: Maybe the support resources are best to be done after the curricula are developed. I think it is important to help people identify what the traineees actually need.
... make it as a new project to be done once this is completed.

Shawn: I think it would be good to have *some* information about how to use it. I hesitate about waiting, we have already started promoting it and we need support material to effectively promote it.
... we should focus on what people actually need. If we had time we could do a focus group, a survey, etc to be sure we are developing materials people actually need.

Shadi: IN addiiton to promotion, we need to address questions that we are already receiving about the first unit we have developed - and it was th hardest one.
... now that we have decided to do the Developer Intermediate, the curricula will be an ongoing project. They will be done in parallel at some point, the question is when.

Estella: We are involved in several skills development projects, define the skills, and the learning objective to build modules. Are we building these for various job roles?

Daniel: This one is focused on developers.
... In summary: Yes we consider this support is worthy and useful. As a groups we also think it is important to prioritize the curriculum development itself. Postpose the development of the support materials until we have a stable draft of the curriculm itself.

Brent: 2 questions: Should we create these materials? Then if we agree, the next ? is when to do it.

<shawn-backup> -1 for postponing (although if rest of group and editors feel strongly, OK with me)

Daniel: I think we all agree that the support should be developed (Eric objection was not a strong one) the main question then is when.

Brent: Can we get in the minutes that we agree to do the support materials?

<shawn-backup> Sharron: Think we won't be able to build a guide until we have the curriculum.

<Zakim> shawn-backup, you wanted to say we have https://www.w3.org/WAI/curricula/ already public

Shawn: We already have curricula and people are already trying to use it and have questions.

<shawn-backup> Sharron: Details for purchasing wording for Developer trainihng would be different. Want spec ific and not too vague. Would be interested in the questions people are asking.

<shadi> +1 to scaffolding

Daniel: Examples could be provided that will help people know how to get started.

<Zakim> shawn-backup, you wanted to note some questions I know of are: equal coverage of each module. each topic covered distinctly... and to note questions form EOWG ( e.g., from Estalla

Eric: I have no problem with doing support at the same time that answers questions from the public. The way it was worded in the survey led me to beleive it was a full resource on its own. If it is just a sentence or two, yes by all means let's just include that. If there are interdependent resources, there becomes an issue of keeping them in sync. Could use FAQs as questions come in. I do not

object to something like that at all.

Shawn: People who looked at the curriculum assumed each topic should be covered distinctly, each module is equal, and other questions that have come up by Howard, Estella etc.

Eric: If the questions are related to what is a Topic and how to approach, it seems that those explanations are clear within the intro pages etc to avoid a separate resource.

Daniel: Some of this may just be an addiitonal sentence or paragraph. I see the second proposal as the more complex requiring more effort.

Shadi: To add to Eric I see this as part of an effective curricula. Requires a context setting part about how it is designed and meant to be used.

Sharron: Yes that makes sense

<yatil> [ +100 to extending the curricula introduction! ]

<eoncins> +1 to Shadi

KrisAnne: I agree with Eric not to create a separate resource but perhaps we do need to enhance the resource that we have. May need a survey resource project. Have you used the curricula, answer this survey? Helping institutions to be sure they end up with targeted training that they really benefit from.

<Laura> +1 to survey

<shawn-backup> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/spra/results includes related ideas :-)

Shadi: During the creation we asked for feedback from instructors that was useful. We may be able to do that again.

Brent: Thanks for walking us through this Daniel

2019 review/2020 upcoming

Brent: We have produced so much in the last year, thanks to everyone for your work, especially to the editors. We are grateful for your time in review and thoughtful comments. Big thansk from the team and co-chairs.
... next is about our 2020 charter. We were last chartered in 2017 and some folks are new since then. We wanted to let you know a bit more about the process...

Shawn: EOWG operates under charter from W3C. We had commitments during this charter and we have been reorg-ing the production priorities. we want to deliver on our 2017 commitments and determine what to include in the next one.
... our charter will go through W3C managment and to the AC for approval. Any questions?

2020 face to face meeting

Brent: We posted a proposed set of meetings - 3 of them in the next year. One at CSUN, one in Barcelona in June and finally in Vancouver for TPAC.

Eval Videos

Shadi: Let's once again consider the AT icons. These are publicly logged when they are finalized and are likely to be re-used once they are public.
... sharing my screen, reminder that these will be used in V4 at about 0.46 the icons. Last week's discussion was useful and the designer came back with these refinements
... just these four for now, quick reactions and thoughts are helpful to guide the further refinement.

<Helen> +q

<Howard> The aA is standard icon for upper/lower case

<Howard> +1

<markpalmer> +1 to Helen's point

<eoncins> +1 to Helen

<Lewis> +1

<Brent> +1 to Helen

<Laura> +1

<yatil> +1

<shawn-backup> +1 to cap As (2 or 3 )

Helen: The lower/upper case designates transformation from one to the other. Normally it is a set of three capital letters of varying size

<Howard> +1 to Helen

Howard: Yes I agree they need to be capital letters of different sizes.

<shawn-backup> +1 for space between the letters

<yatil> [ no preference to spacing, touching is OK]

<Vicki> +1 for space between the letters

<Vicki> yes

<Lewis> +1 for space between letters

<eoncins> +1 for space between the letters

<Vicki> +1 shadi

<hidde> +1 to all of that

<Lewis> +1

<Laura> +1

<Brent> +1

<Helen> +1

<yatil> +1

<Howard> +1

<markpalmer> +1

<krisannekinney> +1

<eoncins> +1

Shadi: The braille icon?

<Vicki> +1 to braille icon

<Helen> +1 to the new icon

<Howard> +1

<Laura> +1

<Lewis> +1

<krisannekinney> better than the last, so +1

<eoncins> +1

<hidde> great! +1

<yatil> +0.867

<shawn-backup> minor -- don't need extra space at bottom

<eoncins> +1 to Brent

<Howard> -1 to Brent

Brent: Can we be sure they are actually letters in braille?

<krisannekinney> +1 to Brent - they should be true letters.

Shawn: I think it should say WAI, there is extra space at the bottom, probbly don't need it, and more than one finger.

<yatil> DuckDuckGo has braille translation: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=WAI+in+braille&t=osx&ia=answer

<yatil> EOWG: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=EOWG+in+braille&t=osx&ia=answer

Sharron: I agree more than one finger

Shadi: We had decided that in iconic mode, one finger may be OK

<yatil> Shawn: I'd be interested to hear about the opinion of braille users.

<yatil> Shadi: Also the fingers are shaped differently.

<shawn-backup> shawn will send real videos of dynamic braille users

<yatil> … Some are bend a little bit.

<Zakim> shawn-backup, you wanted to say WAI and extra space

<Zakim> yatil, you wanted to explain 0.133

<Brent> +1 to spacing at the bottom being tightened up

<shawn-backup> [ Shawn thinks need to have incorrect ratio - bigger braille ]

<Zakim> shawn-backup, you wanted to comment on #4

<Helen> +1 to Shawn

<markpalmer> +1 to shawn

<eoncins> +1 to Shawn

<Lewis> +1 to Shawn

<yatil> Shadi: Last two icons – TTY and Megaphone. The first one seems to be ok, the megaphone is probably not the right one.

<yatil> Shadi: Yes, that does not work.

@@@

Work for this Year

<yatil> Brent: Survey until January 7th, Shadi…

<yatil> Shadi: The survey will have comments on the videos we talked about last week, so you can agree or don’t. Please focus on Video Number 5. Please provide more ideas. This is the last draft.

<yatil> … Otherwise it is mostly confirming that the issues are addressed.

<shawn-backup> HAPPY rest of 2019 at all !

<yatil> Brent: We’ll send out when the survey is ready and reminders to fill it out.

<Vicki> Happy new year everyone and to all those wonderful and patient chairs.

<yatil> Shadi: I have important information: Thanks for working with us this year.

<hidde> +100!

<yatil> Shawn: Thanks to Brent for chairing and Sharron for chairing and scribing!

<yatil> Brent: Thanks to Shawn for being a great team contact.

<yatil> … We’ll not be meeting next week and on January 3rd. **Next meeting is January 10!**

<Helen> Thanks to everyone and enjoy a festive break (even if celebrating time off from work)

<eoncins> Happy New Year and thanks for the great work!!

<yatil> THANKS EVERYONE! HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

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WARNING: Replacing previous Present list. (Old list: Shawn, Brent, Daniel, Helen, Kevin, Laura, Lewis, Mark, Shadi, Sharron, Sylvie, Estella, Kris, Anne)
Use 'Present+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list,
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Present: Shawn Brent Daniel Estella Laura Lewis Mark Sharron Shadi hidde EricE Helen Howard Vicki KrisAnne
Regrets: Howard Kevin Sylvie Jen
Found Scribe: Sharron
Inferring ScribeNick: Sharron
Found Date: 20 Dec 2019
People with action items: 

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