Accessibility Statement Generator Tool

Brent: Discussion within the last few meetings have informed the work and we are ready to look at current version. Want to acknowledge Shadi and the team for this great effort and outstanding result.

<shadi> https://w3c.github.io/wai-statements/planning/statements/

ShadI: Eric V's team has been doing amazing work, really really good stuff. Appreciate as well the support from EricE. The link is in the agenda, please take a look.
... we have a bit more to do but there has been many hours of hard work. We have a few questions and then we will ask for a detailed review and input on wording, styling, function, all the examples, etc. That will go on a survey of the complete version.

EricV: We worked so much on the latest version and as we were trying to collect questions, we tried to answer them. At this time we would ask, does this work for you, headings, info boxes, would that help you generate the statement you need? Have made many changes and would suggest you all walk through and ask any questions you may have.
... provided redundant controls,link in the summary as well as the buttons. If you collapse all sections, you will see the four blocks that form the generator. Block 1 is Basic info, Block 2 is Your Efforts to provide information specific to your own organizational provision of accessibility; Block 3 is technical information and the last is Approval and Complaints process.
... formerly the title was Organization, renamed it to be more specific to actual content/function.
... walks EO through the generator step by step

Shadi: Want to add that there are different opinions on the placeholder text in the form fields and we will discuss that later on.

Shawn: Clarification, EricV. I thought you said there is a way for people to expand all of the info boxes - how does that work?

EricV: No, that is not part of the design. Now it is designed so that each of the blocks can be expanded, not the info boxes. That option would be up for discussion.

Shawn: With -EM Tool, people can get all the info in -EM itself. With this, there is no other way to get all of the information, other than to expand all [i]s on this page. - seems like there should be an "open all" option.

Shadi: This is up for discussion and decision, maybe up for discussion and the survey.

Shawn: And what about the title of the two pages?

Shadi: Yes right now there is an issue of teh same name but the plan is to have page 1 be the Overview displayed by default and then one subpage - Accessibility Statements: Generator
... I suggest we start with a simple question about the info boxes. The icons are not considered sections but are instead a help option. Can change to expand all if people think it is important.

Shawn: Need to be consistent with other WAI resources and provide a way to 'expand all' info icons. Most people will not want to expand all of them all the time, but maybe the first few times through.

<shawn> Maybe show all information, Close all information

Laura: I feel that we should leave it the way it is now. It is cleaner, giving people the option to get more information. It is a standard approach on the web and people will know what to do with it.

Shawn: A use case is 'I know nothing about this. what I want to do here is find out, gather information, bring it back to the team and inform others.'

Laura: Yes, I get that but it is overkill to provide expanded all for things like name organization, etc. I need to know more about specific things but not all of the things. Most people will not want the clutter.

Shadi: So I would ask you to consider who would use expand all icons? If I am the new user who wants to take a long read first. Is there someone who would use expand all blocks and not use expand all info boxes.

Brent: The standard use for info boxes is they are closed and there for extra info in context. I have never seen a place where you would expand all of this sort? If the use case is that some people may not have all the information they need to start the process, is this really the best solution for that situation when it is not a standard?

<Sharron> +1 to brent

<EricV> +1 to brent

<shawn> <shawn> Use case: I've recently been given responsbility for our organization's acccessibility program, and I don't know anything about accessibility statements. First step is research -- learn everything I can about it. Second step: What information do I need to gather for what we might want to put in our accessibility statement? Want to see all of the information.

Eric: The icon designates contextual help, expanding all is not something I would expect or that I would easily understand. Are we trying to do more with the info boxes than they are meant to do?

Shawn:Maybe not expand-collapse. Maybe something different - Show All Help that provides another way to see it?

Shadi: You are bringing up a point that has been made before. And Laura's point is taken that the first ones are not especially relevant or useful. But the later ones have much value.

Shawn: I agree with some of these points, especially the fact that it is not a standard way. As a user advocate, I do not want to abandon this as a legitimate use case.
... recognizing that there may be another way to present this. Maybe another page "Tell me what I need to know"

Shadi: So an option is a separate page, another was to consider them as sestions and have the + to expand the section.

<shawn> -1 for expand all that also expands all the [i]s -- that would be wayyy too much info

EricE: That will expand all sections and the subsections and may not be what the user needs.

EricV: It takes only 11 seconds to open all info boxes?

Shadi: But will it be the case that people will want to xpand all headings but *not* all i's?

Shawn: Yes absolutely

EricV: I like to expand all the first time or so or to print

<shawn> Shawn print, too. sorry.

<shawn> +1 to Robert -- yes, see other people print, too

Robert: One of the primary audience will ask for their assistants to print this out for them to read on the train or at the airport so I think there is merit in terms of expanding all the information. There is consideration and maybe a little tension around keeping it simple.
... I am not married to the icon, maybe a question mark, a hand-holding icon, can we take a concise mode or a verbose mode? I don't want us to get bogged down by trying to meet all things for all people. So we might consider getting to ship by offering just one choice - concise or verbose - two options only.

Shadi: So is it expand all, collapse all to be concise vs verbose?

<yatil> [Expand all Sections] [Collapse all Sections] ---space--- [Show all help information]

Robert: Illustrated with 'hold my hand' and Hootie and the Blowfish, I am a bit ambivalent about exactly what the choice is but strongly urge us to create just one choice, two modes. Do we have to have a lot of "show me" options and expand collapse or just make two roads through the resource, the simple or the help me and not try to give everyone the answer to every scenario.

Sharron: What if we leave it as is and add a help page that reiterates he information in the help i boxes? Would that be an extreme effort? The home page gives the overview, the help icons provide in-context support. If more is needed or a summary of all, it could be the info box content arranged on another page. No addiitonal content. These exact things just listed on another (Help) page.

Shadi: OK that is one proposal. Another is the one that EricE proposed as a switch. I hesitate to create a help page becasue it grows legs and gets more complex.

EricV: To be honest, we have the help page, it is the first page, the Overview. Another possibility would be with the preview button, we could have the button for make a print version with all the info.

Shadi: But then what about when people want to expand only certain sections?

Shawn: I understand your hesitation around things growing legs and growing longer. I think you could essentially take the expanded view and boom! that is your help page. It does not need to be a huge growing thing.
... I also like EricV's idea that that is available from the home page

EricE: My concern is that people will use the form itself to learn about Accessiiblity Statements.Not sure we need help icons for some fields. Could start be removing or reducing those/

Shadi: Tried to address possible confusion between name of org and name of website.
... hearing two thing crystallizing. One is to just have a switch to "show all help" or another is to have a help page/static version saying what you need to have, what you need to know.

Laura: I like Eric's idea "show all help" with a reduction in the number of help icons there.

<Brent> +1 to Laura

Shadi: OK we can take another pass at that reduction. EricV, do we want to take this on?

EricV: can this be a question in the survey.

<yatil> [I trust that the Editors make good decisions.]

<yatil> [Based on the discussions here.]

Shadi: My understanding is that this is a wide concern. The question is how to solve. Let's make the decision now.
... I think the switch is easy to implement, the page maybe more so.

EricV: It should not be difficult to have a button that would generate a separate page with everything in it, ready to print.

Shawn: My preference is to keep just the two pages and the second page has a toggle to "show all help" and can still minimize and collapse some of them. On overview page "generate statement" or "show options" that goes to the expaneded version.

<yatil> [-0.2 to creating a second page, having everything expanded is effectively the static all expanded version]

Sharron: now that you understand the problem, it seems the team could determine the best solution.

EricV: Placeholders, who is in favor, who is opposed?

<lkee> +1 for placeholder

<rjolly> I am generally against placeholder text

<Lewis> -1 for placeholder

<EricV> -1 for placeholder

<krisannekinney> against

<krisannekinney> -1

<Brent> 0

<shawn> [ Shawn thinks Sarah Pullis is -1 for placeholder ]

<yatil> -1

<howard> +1 from Howard

Sharron: what is the purpose of the placeholder text?

Shadi: It helps explain what needs to be filled in, gives them an idea of how to format the answer.

<Brent> Placeholder text helps me not to have to open the "i" in some cases

EricV: It is included in text in different places, letting people know how it will land in the final version.

<yatil> [Happy to defer to the Editors on this.]

Laura: I agree with Brent. It simplifies and don't need to open the help icon if you read the placeholder. Not sure why people are against it.

Lewis: It goes away as soon as you start writing, need to delete in order to remember what is there. Screen reader users don't like it since once they begin to write, it goes away.

Shadi: The same examples are in the help

KrisAnne: In something like this, I am afraid they will just leave the placeholder text rather than come up with something on their own. Then we have 50 companies with identical statements.

Shadi: Once you start typing, it disappears, you will not have the same text.

Howard: I think it provides guidance, I don't think the commonality is an issues and I like examples, they give us something useful to start with.
... don't feel strongly but I like the placeholder text.

<lkee> put it in the survey - I'm still for

Brent: I am neutral or for, EricE what are your feelings against?

EricE: Placeholder text can't be translated

Shadi: If they don't exist, they can't be translated either.

<yatil> +1 for placeholders

EricE: If you think it is useful for your use case, you should have the placeholder

Brent: Does the screen reader announce that it is placeholder text?
... just read what is in there? does anyone know?

<rjolly> i don't think it announces as a particular type of text

<rjolly> but worth testing it out

<rjolly> as EricV is saying

<Brent> agree with robert

EricV: For the survey, we can leave it in. Can do some user testing in the meantime, what happens when they arrive there, does it help?
... provide that feedback to the group.

Brent: Can you ask a specific question about it in the survey?

EricE: As there seems to be no group consensus, are we willing to allow the editors to make the decision? Then we can move on.

Brent: I don't think we will get to consensus on this, could talk for hours and not reach agreement.

Lewis: In NVDA default, it ignored the text entirely.
... it will make no difference to users of NVDA in default mode.

<krisannekinney> I would like the opportunity to walk through it.

Shadi: It seems the opposition is stronger, so editors do not want to overrule the group. tend to want to remove it at this time.

Sharron: Seems we might want to add it as a question to the survey to give people time to think about it.

Brent: Yes good idea and as Eric said, make it an advisory question
... will reinforce the need to use the help icons

Laura: I agree with everything that Brent said. It reinforces the use of the icon but creates the need for an extra click That seems a reason to keep the placeholder text.

Shadi: We managed two really big questions that were holding us up. Thanks everyone for the discussion.
... next steps, we will post the survey. Anyone who really wants to do this over the weekend?

EricV: There are a few things that will not be ready until next week.

Shadi: We will post the survey on Monday and it will be open over the following weekend.

Brent: Tech question: The form label when you get down to different Environments.

EricV: noticed it as well, will address it.

Brent: Excellent work in short order, thank you so very much. Hoping for good feedback on the survey.
... F2F agenda

<EricV> Thank you all. Great comments. Have to leave. Have a good weekend!

<Brent> F2F Agenda: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_F2F_October_2018#Agenda

F2F agenda

Brent: We want to give a bit of background and ask questions of you. There was a list of topics. Sharron and I took the agenda drafting on our own with the idea of tweaking as needed. Generally have an agenda but it is flexible. We put the outline out and got some reaction from the planning team. Want Shawn's help to adjust the agenda as we talk through these things.
... start with Shadi, we had a lot of things related to the WAI-Guide project. Shadi asked to have time to walk through the major pieces and start collecting ideas about planning it. Wanted to give the whole day pretty much to the WAI-Guide on Monday. Then Tuesday was dedicated to all the other things.
... so let's start with how you want to adjust the timing.

Shadi: Three hours for the first discussion of curriculum is too long, would prefer two and use the other hour for the Authoring Tools discussion.
... spend this final hour on specific information for 1. accessibility in online learning and 2. digital publication

Sharron: is it part of WAI-Guide?

Shadi: Only in the sense that online learning and digital pub are related to authoring tools

Brent: Anything related to Authoring Tools and WAI-Guide outreach on Day 1. Outreach for other resources on Tuesday. Seems like we had good outcomes when we focused on outreach previously.
... one other point that we put Tutorials at the top of the day, we want to find out if there are things that will support Tutorial development as it may relate to the WAI-Guide curricula? We wanted a refresh for the group about tutorial status to inform that discussion. Does that make sense for you Eric?

Eric: Yes it keeps the mind open to the possibility of looping tutorial content into curriculm development.

Brent: Moving on to Tuesday, we looked at all the other resources that peole thought were important and put those in what we hope is a logical order.
... wanted to think about whether some of the resources we added were ready to be moved forward.
... Accessibility Statements start the day on Tuesday if it is not yet wrapped up. If not, we would work on Understand Docs. We are trying to finish out the first five, and we could look t compelted drafts to be sure they are ready to ship to AGWG. -OR- we could look at GitHUb issues logged for the other 12 SCs
... this is high level review, not word-smithing

<krisannekinney> sounds good to me.

Brent: Silver TF has asked for time with us but it has not been finalized. How does the morning plan land with everyone?
... The afternoon we talked about revisiting the Components and Easy Checks.

Shawn: Do we want to focus the F2F work on things that we have people to follow up with rather than the UI components and easy checks we do not have resources to follow-up

EricE: For the UI Components, we could use synergy on that with WAI-Guide.
... finishing policies, website, open issues, not sure what we want to prioritize. Happy to do what the chairs want.
... if we want to prioritize the EasyChecks for translation, it is quite an involved project. Would need resources to move them both forward at the same time.

<Lewis> thanks

Sharron: Where better than at a face to face to work out the synergy with new resources coming into EO with complex resources we want to develop?

Wrap-Up

Brent: Will put out another reminder of the survey and update the work for this week. Thanks everyone.