trackbot, prepare teleconference

<scribe> ScribeNick: addison

Agenda

https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open

action-631?

<trackbot> action-631 -- Addison Phillips to Invite chaals to teleconference in two weeks to discuss microdata -- due 2017-07-13 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/631

close action-631

<trackbot> Closed action-631.

action-632?

<trackbot> action-632 -- Addison Phillips to Update unicode-xml to include change in status banner -- due 2017-07-13 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/632

close action-632

<trackbot> Closed action-632.

action-633?

<trackbot> action-633 -- Richard Ishida to Create github repo for new document (call it string-metadata) -- due 2017-07-13 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/633

close action-633

<trackbot> Closed action-633.

action-634?

<trackbot> action-634 -- Richard Ishida to Check john's comment on floating times article -- due 2017-07-13 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/634

close action-634

<trackbot> Closed action-634.

jck: talked to calendaring folks
... haven't heard back from resulting references

richard: needs a little more work, not sure what to do by end of it

http://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-floating-times.en

<scribe> ACTION: addison: update floating times q+a to address confusing section at end [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-636 - Update floating times q+a to address confusing section at end [on Addison Phillips - due 2017-07-20].

action-635?

<trackbot> action-635 -- Addison Phillips to Remind all to think about ways and venues for reaching out to larger audience for reviews -- due 2017-07-13 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/635

close action-635

<trackbot> Closed action-635.

Microdata

chaals: microdata is like microformats to put data into a document
... microdata doesn't do i18n
... all attributes around i18n get thrown away

richard: reason why?

chaals: they felt it would be easier
... quick hack version of
... trying to spec it out and how does it fit into space where
... multiple approaches exist
... have proposed that instead of resolving "lacking thing"
... then use RDFa
... better at handling i18n
... need to get schema.org et al to rebuild parsers to support
... instead of making microdata a competitor to rdfa
... suggest that for uses needing e.g. internationalisation then it is easy to convert your markup to RDFa which can handle proper i18n

addison: what would you like us to do?

chaals: okay for microdata to move forward? even though weak in i18n

richard: where does it say that now?

chaals: point out rough parallels but don't spell out

addison: are there partizans for microdata somewhere?

chaals: schema founders proposed it first, but found it was bad for things
... lots of microdata out there
... webcommons micro crawl
... billions of triples, 2/3 of which are in microdata
... which is why a rec is being produced

richard: schema.org balked at using microdata...

chaals: no, still accept
... so we started out suggesting use microdata
... as we looked at it more carefully
... it's pretty simplistic and badly designed
... trying to map data into an RDF graph
... microdata can be used for that, but no fun
... RDFa or JSON-LD more fit for purpose
... RDFa close match

<r12a> https://w3c.github.io/microdata/#i18n-considerations

addison: this is buried, are you planning for a big "sticker" on the whole?
... saying we don't need to review?

chaals: if you review it, you'll find it's highly inadequate
... would like to move forward, because useful for simple cases
... and when you "grow up" then here are better alternatives

richard: would prefer if people used world-ready from the start

addison: so do brief review, propose text for i18n section and status?

chaals: happy, but want to do CR transition by end of month

jan: I think it's wonderful, having hard time finding people to work on microdata

richard: do in issue list so others can see

chaals: use issues

addison: if tagged with i18n tags then lists will mirror

HTML5 and Email input

chaals: split into two issues
... left hand side and right hand side
... right side, we expect addresses to normalize to punycode, i.e. ascii
... we expect browsers to provide ability to input actual characters
... actually easier to see in real Unicode string
... say mixed russian and english
... also easier to type
... we didn't make any change to left hand side

jck: on right hand side
... while principal you describe is correct, example terrible

<chaals> the left-hand-side issue

jck: if string with cyrillic is displayed in punycode
... it's a warning
... in general case exactly right
... left side is more problematic
... standard says "don't convert"
... use native character form in UTF-8
... don't allow non-ascii means don't use those addresses

chaals: no browser currently accepts anything on left hand side anything but ascii
... won't put in CR if no implementation
... could put in FPWD of 5.3
... but getting 5.2 CR out

jck: your recommendation is why browsers don't, e.g. a chicken and egg problem

chaals: reason to change right hand side, to push browsers
... going back to russian example
... punycode as helpful warning is only useful if assume ascii email address
... not as powerful outside

jck: conclusion is correct, and correct for another reason mentioned on thread
... because a couple of vendors have decided to implement local domains/domain names
... that are not ACE but are in native encoding

<chaals> the email issue for the right-hand-side

jck: advantages to browsers to keep in that form until late binding

chaals: recognize the problem
... like HTML to push browsers to be helpful
... lot of pushback on parent security issue
... not well argued case?
... getting some support to move in this direction is surprisingly hard

jck: would a letter from chinese government help?

chaals: yes, especially in github

jck: will try to get generated

chaals: better if they proded someone to implement support

addison: need to find a browser to do it?

chaals: yes

jck: arguably, what html should be doing is accepting what it gets and passing
... keep in utf-* until it interfaces with i.e. smtp
... html is trying to secondguess

addison: utility is to page authors, not necessarily about sending

chaals: don't think html got syntax right
... they were inventing stuff at that time
... comment for real serious use case and really want
... at least in a draft, possibly marked "at risk" when goes in
... saying we want is good, but need impleentation

jck: concern about ascii-only problem that goes back to at least html2

<scribe> ACTION: jck: stimulate non-ascii email advocates to provide feedback on EAI support in HTML [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-637 - Stimulate non-ascii email advocates to provide feedback on eai support in html [on John Klensin - due 2017-07-20].

chaals: expect call for consensus on 5.2 next week
... also plan to start 5.3
... from the 5.2 doc so can ship next year
... do you anticpate an objection?

addison: don't expect to object

chaals: a formal statement would be helpful to me

<scribe> ACTION: addison: provide a formal statement on i18n position on eai in html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-638 - Provide a formal statement on i18n position on eai in html [on Addison Phillips - due 2017-07-20].

chaals: easiest place to comment is on the issue
... can post a pointer there

Radar

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/projects/1

action-622?

<trackbot> action-622 -- Bert Bos to Forward poe/ordl comments on behalf of bert -- due 2017-06-08 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/622

AOB?

Info Share

richard: unicode in xml was published today
... about an hour ago as a retired note
... so at bottom of our list of our TRs
... have a new github repo called string-metadata
... a hefty PR in there

addison: will take up

<chaals> [Note that HTML 5.2 includes input type="datetime-local" which is a floating time zone. I'll see if it makes sense to comment on the question]

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.152  of Date: 2017/02/06 11:04:15  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/RFDa/RDFa/
Succeeded: s/deprecate microdata/suggest that for uses needing e.g. internationalisation then it is easy to convert your markup to RDFa which can handle proper i18n/
Succeeded: s/better fit/more fit for purpose/
Succeeded: s/left side/right side/
Succeeded: s/do on list/do in issue list/
Present: Bert addison David JcK Steven chaals-o Jan
Found ScribeNick: addison
Inferring Scribes: addison
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2017Jul/0011.html
Found Date: 13 Jul 2017
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html
People with action items: addison advocates email jck non-ascii stimulate