Digital Publishing Interest Group, F2F First day

19 Sep 2016


See also: IRC log


Heather Flanagan,  Brady Duga, Charles LaPierre, George Kerscher, Boris Anthony, Avneesh Singh, Bill Kasdorf, Leonard Rosenthol, Garth Conboy, Rick Johnson, Peter Kreutzberger, Liam Quin, Takeshi Kanai, Bobby Tung, Paul Belfanti, Laurent  Le  Meur, Daniel Glazman, David Wood, Leslie Hulse, Marcos Caceres (on the phone), Dave Kramer (dauwhe), Karen Myers, Ivan Herman, Heather Flanagan
From other groups:
hober, Kathy, mhakkinen, Rossen, surma
HeatherF, Karen, lrosenth, TabAtkins, fantasai, duga


  1. Introductions around the table
  2. Introduction for the day
  3. UCR Issues' discussions
  4. Joint Meeting with WCAG
  5. Joint Meeting with CSS WG
    1. Hanging punctuation
    2. Regions proposal from Jen.
  6. Meetings' recap
  7. UCR discussion followup

Introductions around the table

(Not minuted)

Introduction for the day

tzviya: LEt's talk about that word: Package. publication is not just books; it could be journal articles, encyclopedias, church notes
... anything we read that isn't just a blog (though maybe a its a blog, too)
... Don't want to discuss "portable" right now. Will discuss in next session. EPUB has a pretty clear description.
... we might want to use other words than portability, packaging. We need to be flexible as our use of certain terminology is confusing to certain people.
... there will have to be compromise and consensus on final words and outcome.
... so while there seems to be tension on the github issues list between publishers and web people, it is a really good conversation to have
... Some of the other issues to cover this week will be less controversial.

<tzviya> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Sep_2016_F2F_Logistics_and_Details#Agenda

tzviya: we will have meetings with other groups this week. Instead of talking about our other documentation, we're going to discuss issues against the pwp-ucr.
... Service Workers has been a hot topic. Jake will join via WebEx if possible when we discuss SWs.

<bob> would you mind using the microphones as I am finding it impossible to hear

tzviya: other meetings include CSS (pagination, math). At the same time, APA (extended descriptions). Data recap, and action items will come out from there.
... Permissions, Obligations, and Expressions WG (which is not DRM). Use cases doc FTW!

<tzviya> say hi

yay! Hello @marcosc

UCR Issues' discussions

<tzviya> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Detailed_TPAC_2016_Agenda#PWP-UCR_Fundamental_Issues

<Karen> Scribenick: Karen

Tzviya: we had a detailed agenda

…Garth, can you start with a summary

Tzviya: we have a fundamental issues agenda

…I need to tell people when this meeting is starting

Tzviya: as hopefully you are aware, we have more than 100 issues in a given repository

…Ivan and I tried to sort them into categories and we will try to work them to the best of our abilities

…The goal is not solve them, but to sort through them

…Heather is going to take notes in GitHub

…or by branching the repository

…hoping to have a new draft

…First issue is 99

<tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-pwp-ucr/issues/99

Ivan: before getting into the deep end of the individual issues

…whether we can agree with Marcos being around

…what are the 3-4 very fundamental questions that are on the table, regardless of which issue they appear in

…Some problems that spread over 2-3 issues in some sense

…We may decide to go one lever higher up

…and how that translates into individual issues

Leonard: Looking at the fundamentals issue page
... every one of the items on that page

…refers to the "P" term we are not talking about yet

…I am not sure how we handle we address until we handle the "P" problem; meaning package or portable

Ivan: That is one of them

…not sure which word to use

Ivan: Regardless …how do we handle the online/offline

…one area where we want to be

…we started going in this direction in a general way

…it may be covered by service workers; special things; this is one big area

…There is an area of what kind of information do I have to make available

…for that type of action to work properly

scribe: whether there is any need at all or not

…issues about table of contents, info about available resources

…where the terminology gets messy

…the EPUB standard refers to those as a package

…which in the Web world is usually referred to as manifest

…that is one area

…Then there is the "P" word

…whether we want to provide a package

Garth: that thing we are fighting about is the container

Ivan: yes, the container as a facility or not

…these are the main areas that are the source of disagreement

…It think that is the main sticking point

…I would like to hear from Marcos

Bill: Let me walk through the logic

…first, it can be as simple as single document or as complex as a collection

<glazou> +1 to what Bill_Kasdorf just said

…whatever level of complexity comprises a publication must be distributed as a single unit; to be addressed by a single URI or identifier

…here is this thing

…and whether I fetch a zip file and unpack offline or simply access all components as service works, manifest

…it is not essential that it be packaged, but it is essential that it be identified

Tzviya: Marcos go ahead

Marcos: catching up what was just written

…i don't have any disagreement that was said

…Conceptually we are in agreement

…about what we are trying to achieve with use cases; it's how we get there

…maybe be premature to start writing solutions at this point

Tzviya: the mics are in the middle of the room

Glazou: I agree with your point

…another goal is to point to every resource inside documents

Bill: point that that thing gives you everything you need

Glazou: Web has to have URL from top to bottom

…if we don't do that we will have problems with scripts, with security, breaking

…we have to load whatever is in the publication

Rebecca: Key problem from academic and scientific publishers is that the content must be completely refereable

…one way to get referable is to make a @ systems

…and to cite specific paragraph, in a specific page, in a specific edition of the book

[cites Don Quixote example]

…I don't care if it's an EPUB or PWP

…that's important for the publishers

…since ten years ago

…we should pay close attention to this approach

Tzviya: It's not just a matter of referencing; there needs to be a pattern to referencing the scientific record

…there needs to be the scientific record that says this is "the" thing

…if article is edited or annotated or recalled, still needs to be a record of this

Boris: I am brand new to this group

…what is lacking I think

…we have overlapping, differing concepts and of how those are implemented

…if we are to get anywhere, we need to get harmonized

…but we are diving into details, but we have to agree on terminologies

…maybe a formal exercise

Tzviya: you are right; may be good way to get us back to the issues

Marcos: another clause to Web in general. Would be great to know what other best practices or standards are

… Would be great to have some idea of how we are getting that in general

…how the scientific community deals with digital publishing and citations

Tzviya: Getting back to what Boris said, we need to be careful not to get into the weeds

…in Ivan's characterization, look at the higher issues

…in the document Ivan divided the issues into large categories

…The concept of publishing; relationships to service workers; the definition of online/offline, and offweb

…manifest and requirement and security issues

…and maybe talk about filtering

…cannot do that in the next 54 minutes

…Let's start with the concept of publication

…affects whole of PWP

<garth> Detailed agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Detailed_TPAC_2016_Agenda

…we need to discuss this

…As Leonard pointed out

…we had a lot of discussion

Ivan: I have the impression on the issue of this discussion that we are converging

…that when we talk of a publication

…and I'm talking about publication on the Web for now

…the fact that we need a concept that refers to a collection of documents

…I would make it a little bit larger and call it resources

…data sources are just as essential as an HTML file

…so a collection of resources

…we used term publication as the term for a collection of things

…it is the URL of the collection not the individual items

…we have to answer if I de-reference that URL

…there were discussions as to whether this was

…this concept is something of value

scribe: and it's a concept in this form does not exist on the Web right now

…is this a first point where we can have some sort of a consensus

<Zakim> david_wood, you wanted to ask whether anyone is here from VIVO? "VIVO is member-supported, open source software and an ontology for representing scholarship."

Leonard: I think you are right; it's where we started, it's a good definition

David: It seems to me that a lot of these problems have been addressed on the Web

…the library community has used consistent URLs to solve problems for 23 years

…we have W3C recommendations around annotations from SemWeb; ways to represent and describe a group of document, annotating these things

…are we leveraging those?

…and I wanted to say about the vivo community

…it's a community in academe addressing some similar problems in similar ways

…if you are not familiar

Leonard: We want to leverage existing standards wherever we can; looked a lot of these things

…David we would welcome more pointers to help us solve these problems

<HeatherF> )

HeatherF: I want to clarify that I heard the definition correctly

…Publication is a collection of resources, each of whom has its own URI?

Leonard: He said it better before

HeatherF: I'll go back and look in irc

<lrosenth> Publication is a collection of resources, where there exists a single URL for the entire publication as well as a URL for each resources.

<HeatherF> ack, thanks

Marcos: not unique to publications

…same problem in Web Applications

…a game

…there is a finite collection of resources

…that go into what we humans perceive as being a work

…that problem is not unique to publishing

…unique to any application on the Web; we can debate that later on

…more pragmatically

…I think it was David

…was mentioning the longevity of HTML

…and how we can string together the documents and the link relationships

…and in a more modern way

…the concept can define themselves what the relationships area

…the application, the book

…go to Ivan's point to resources and data

…these cannot be broken

<david_wood> For example, a Dublin Core has a formal description of a "Bibliographic Resource", and a wealth of terms related to it: http://dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-terms/#terms-BibliographicResource

…having a declarative model around that

<Bill_Kasdorf> Suggestion: A publication is a resource or collection of resources with a persistent identity that enables interchange and reference.

…HTML support to do that

…that is all I have to say on that

Glazou: I heard something about all the specs we have in HTML, SemWeb

<david_wood> Dublin Core specifically addresses multiple formats, publications, etc. It was developed by the library community.

…that's great to hear, but it's almost useless

…only 10 percent is implemented by browser vendors or the rendering engines

…service workers do a lot of new stuff

<lrosenth> @david_wood - that’s much too limited a definition

…some are completely useless; they don't exist from a market point of view

…reviewing the potential standards available in the world is one thing, but it is a waste of time

…we should focus on the rendering engines of browsers and reading systems that we have

…and focus on that

…otherwise we will end up in dead @

<boris_anthony> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/#h-abstract

Boris: In the PWP UCR use cases requirements doc we had put a definition of sort

…take out PWP

[Boris reads definition]

…fundamentally this is what we are talking about

…I can imagine a way to build this that can be loaded into a browser

…we need HTML, and be loaded in

…very few things to be figured out

<lrosenth> A Portable Web Publication (PWP) is

<lrosenth> portable

<lrosenth> bounded package of media

<lrosenth> in web-standard formats

<lrosenth> accessible by standard Web protocols

<lrosenth> and consumable by standard Web tools.

Tzviya: Dave and Jake built this a year ago; we have done the proof of concept

Ivan: Two different things

…one answer to Marcos

…to be precise about what I said

…I did not say that what we are talking about is unique to publications

…if there are other areas that have similar concerns, that is great

…this issue is not properly solved

…Back to what David said

…what I know from my distant past

…there are certain issues that the SEmWeb community looked at

…and they are more sensitive on certain questions

…what is meaning of the URL

…and my question of what exactly you get when you de-reference the URL

…SemWeb community has been asking these questions for a long time

…if we are talking about web docs these are valid questions

…these are things we have to take into account

…they are more on the conceptual level than what is implemented in a browser

…it's a different question; a kind of answer to Glazou

…I am not talking about RDF rules that are out there

…there are long-standing discussions that are out there

…To be honest, David, I'm not sure if there are any standards that we can use right away in this world

Bill_Kasdorf: To get back to consensus on fundamental terms and concepts

…we need to understand what we mean by publication

…and if PWP is that definition

…a publication is collection of resources...

[5:14 in minutes

…pointing out that a PWP is a particular type of publication, it's a web publication and it's portable

<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to say that this are publishing specific use cases that can be applied to other things, like apps and games

Tzviya: thank you, Bill

…this is not specific to publishing; if we can work on something that is usable for publishing and games and apps

<Zakim> marcosc, you wanted to address the SemWeb stuff should be built with userland primitives

…and a second doc that is specific to publishing then we will be in a good place

Marcosc: I wanted to say

<Bill_Kasdorf> Suggestion: A publication is a resource or collection of resources with a persistent identity that enables interchange and reference. A PWP is a web publication, and it's portable.

…it's all great and fine to explore deeper meanings of de-referencing URIs

<JakeA> of ffff

…and this can be done in @ land

…but do we have enough stuff in the web platform to do that

…to fetch API and so on

…is it in the DOM

…you can do

…is there enough in the browser; we'll need to experiment with these things

…had a hard time hearing the definition of publications

…i did like hearing about a resource


<lrosenth> @jakeA - we’re not talking about apps here, though…so not sure what you are thinking.

Tzviya: The definition that Bill proposed is a few lines up

<JakeA> lrosenth: I was thinking "ooops wrong window"

…others can review that also

[Tzviya rereads]

…We can come back to what portable means later

Garth: I think it was Boris who pasted in

…the abstract definition

…we are dancing a bit

…that definition is fine

…the exciting discussion

…on the issues

…I am going to repaste

…PWP definition

…I look at this

…we understand much of things; draw a line between top two and bottom three

<tzviya> Garth points to http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/#h-abstract

…after listening to Marcos' comments on the issues

…I think there is a contingent that wants to drop the first two of those

…i think Ivan or Tzviya raised that we are all in agreement in the bottom three

…that we expect browsers to do

…render this thing in its full print fidelity and it will be awesome

…and there is a community, probably coming from EPUB

…looking at market

…as it is today

…looking at a snapshot, selling to a vendor

…may or not be rendered

…so I could make an argument

…that maybe those top two are clearly within the scope and are important

…invite publishers in room to chime in

…maybe the bounded and packaged media part is not meant to be implemented by brosers

…maybe its P,WP

<lrosenth> +1 to @garth and his comments

…the support piece that we define

…it's a mission

…and then the WP and we define that as well

…maybe if we an define that

Tzviya: I will jump the queue

…had a conversation with Dave last week

…perhaps this is the better perspective

…a lot of us working in publishing for a long time

…is where do we draw line between author and reading system requirements

…what is the magic that the user agent does and what we are writing that comes down to publisher requirements

…so are we talking about something that the publisher has to build into it, or is it the reading side

…that is fundamentally what we are arguing about

Marcos: you eventually end up why current formats are @

…do all these things

<Zakim> david_wood, you wanted to say that I was not proposing the adoption of SemWeb standards per se; instead, I was suggesting that a PWP is a form of cache which could/should have a

Glazou: I have two important concerns to express

…the first one is related to the proposal that Bill posted


…I am particularly surprised

…we don't even mention publishing

…a publication has to be edited and published

…making a resource and making it able to publish technically speaking

Bill: that is what I mean by interchange and reference

Glazou: we are still discussing the main word of the charter of this group

…it's important enough to be noted

…it seems that that work should be done before

…immediately before the publication itself

…we are still at the point of the WG and IG are not well defined

…we are not at that point

Ivan: just to answer Daniel

…we have to be precise

…this work was not chartered two years ago

…it was charted when we recharted a year ago

Glazou: the date on the charter is 31 August 2015

Ivan: The other point is to make very clear

…we did have a long discussion about the terminology

…we ended up with documents

…for good or for worse

…this is the first time

…when the non-publisher community got interest in what we are doing

…and we began to have feedbacks and thank you Marcos

…we were having our internal discussions

…and now we are discussing because we have feedbacks

…I don't see that as a problem for an IG

David_Wood: To clarify

…I put some notes in irc about the relation in my mind as a Web developer

…for a PWP

…hope you will look up those things up and speak with me and tell me where you think I'm wrong

Bill: Back to what Garth was pointing out

…which I very much appreciate

…one way to get closer to consensus

…is between the first two items and the last three

…if PWP must be able to be bounded and to be portable, distinct from it is bounded and it is portable

<garth> The five attributes of a PWP: http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/#h-abstract

…the publication in the sense it's not a thing

<garth> Perhaps the first two are the "P" and the latter three are a "WP"

…that it's able to bounded and interchanged as a thing but cannot exist as a thing

<lrosenth> @garth - I suggested that same thing in the github threads… (so +1)

…decades of history in publishing

…what we are struggling with here

…what is intellectual publication distinction

…what we are saying is that that intellectual publication, we want a PWP to identify that thing

Tzviya: We are not talking about what is a book and we are not branching into HTTP-14

Bill: Reacting to able to be

Boris: Some reps come in saying these are musts vs coulds or shoulds

…My question back to Garth's statement

…we need to be clear what are the things we actually want

…to come back to separation of portable bounded

…I want to understand what we need browsers to do to be portable and bounded

…URI, the constituent parts, and navigation of that content

…when I open URI, what does the browser do for me

…is it a feature they killed 15 years ago; index next and back

…what is it we need to be portable and bounded; clarify that

<david_wood> HTTP Range-14 for those interested: https://www.w3.org/wiki/HttpRange14Webography ; short course at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTPRange-14

Ivan: I want to get back to question of Marcos

…that you asked on one of issues as well

…If you are talking about package

…why do we touch EPUB at all?

…which is a fair question

…what we do with Web publications

…I think the main issue is that what we want to ensure is a smooth connection between the two

…a smooth transition

…if we unpackage; may be outdated in its structure

…maybe publishers will kill me

…but what I want to see is whatever the structure is, it makes it an easy interchange between what browsers can do on the web regardless of packaging

…that is where there is a disconnect

…EPUB has been looked at from

…Looked at browser manifestation

…too many things would require change

…the issues that are there with EPUB

…if we define a structure for publication about what browsers can do and they can do 90 percent of it

…and then we look at EPUB and deconstruct it and reconstruct it and make it compatible

…When I turned script into EPUB

…I had to do a long Python script to do that, to publish in EPUB because I had to adapt to what EPUB was requiring

…this should have been a smooth thing of two to three lines

Tzviya: We are supposed to break soon

…we have four people on the queue; you each have half a minute

Leonard; Part of my reason to join this group is to expand the definition beyond a curated definition

…no formal curation process

…that is one of limitations of EPUB today

…it is focused on the needs of professional publishers, which it was designed for

…but we should address the needs of any publisher on the web today

Rebecca; That's fine

Garth: I cannot help myself that you can do EPUB and Google docs

…thank Ivan for what he said

…that gets to the heart of the issue

…I thought I was on the precipice of what Marcos said

…EPUB is not solution for that and invent something new

…as we iterate on the bottom three and what a publication is

…may run to @…doubt it would be .mobi

…maybe related to PDF

…round tripping

<Zakim> marcosc, you wanted to the challenge is that things break when you change from one security model to another

…love if Marcos would say this makes sense

Marcos: challenge with going from one to the other

…from on web to packaged

…and need to change security model there

…those in HTTPS world it does affect how the APIs in web browsers work because they are tied to the same origin policy

<Bill_Kasdorf> I suggest a layered definition: What is a publication? What is a web publication? What is a portable web publication?

…down to origin that these things may break

…there is going to have to be some kind of tradeoff

…how dynamic to be

…I hope we can treat all of the web as publications and not have monolithic descriptions

…there will continue to be issues; some outlined in GitHub

Tzviya: Marcos, thank you very much for joining us

…we will address this again tomorrow

…we will take a break now

<boris_anthony> Must/Can - web users/browsers have always been ok with “breakage”… publishers and epub world … ready to accept that?

…and hope to dive into the actual issues tomorrow

…this has been a productive conversation

…as Boris reminds us, important not to get too far into the weeds as we are focused on use cases now

…we will continue the discussion tomorrow

…we'll meet back here in 10 minutes to speak with WCAG WG

…they will come here

<lrosenth> tviaya: joint meeting of WCAG and DPUB…need to get to lunch so starting...

Joint Meeting with WCAG

<lrosenth> skipping introductions - so we can get work done

<lrosenth> Andrew and Josh co-chair WCAG

<lrosenth> no one on the phone

<tzviya> agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Detailed_TPAC_2016_Agenda#Meeting_with_WCAG

<lrosenth> publishing has great interest in WCAG and @avneesh is leading the effort to on accessibility and DPUB

<rdeltour> DPUB accessibility note:

<lrosenth> acc checker discussions

<rdeltour> https://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/

<bob> apologies but without the microphone I cant hear what is going on

<David_MacDonald> David MacDonald here from WCAG

<clapierre> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/index.html

<lrosenth> avneesh: George, Charles & Avnessh will lead the discussions

George: our people with one foot in PWP and one foot in EPUB

from the beginning WCAG is fundemantal

to EPUB and publications to date

<bob> thanks

here’s Charles about the note on DPUB and WCAG, overlaps and deficiencies concerning publications

Charles: A11y TF charges with review of WCAG and what is missing...

…published note in May on what they found

…navigation of an ordered collection is a key item

…page markers and pagination is another area (aka locators?)

…but this may not equate to a printed version (but if there is, they should connected in some way, esp for students)

…phonetic spelling of proper names is important (as defined by author/publisher)

…discoverability of whether a given publication meets their A11y needs. (this info should be searchable and discoverable before any possible purchase)

…skippability and escapability. DAISY addresses these but not WCAG.

…for example, how to exit an equation and move to next item in reading order

…there may also be issues with Math and Annots - but early days there.

Avneesh: coming from EPUB, it uses OWP incl HTML and therefore leveraging WCAG.

…but it also has the same drawbacks of standard web pages

…so we need (in EPUB) a way to make A11y a first class citizen (requirement)

…but how to leverage WCAG and not create a new specification particular to EPUB?

<rdeltour> for the record, the EPUB A11y spec

<rdeltour> http://www.idpf.org/epub/a11y/accessibility.html

<tzviya> EPUB 3 A11y Docshttp://www.idpf.org/epub/a11y/accessibility.html

…So EPUB spec starts with WCAG and then adds stuff specific to EPUB

<clapierre> http://www.idpf.org/epub/a11y/techniques/techniques.html

…this is already in place and now look to move from EPUB to PWP, how can we move thse things to WCAG

…and what about certification?

<David_MacDonald> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/

DAISY is taken on certification as well as an A11y checker, that will be used for certification

…spec->best practices->A11y checker

…two great items: (1) collection of documents, currently in EPUB3, (2) discovery (metadata)

…discovery is collaboration with schema.org

<David_MacDonald> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#keyterms_set-of-documents

scribe: other items: page markers and skipping that should be incorporated into WCAG

…and let’s not forget media overlays and how they can be accessible

scribe: but the two items are the big ones we want to focus on

George: it has been difficult for professors to pick an A11y compliance title. having the metadata will enable this use case

…with info about what standards it complies to and perhaps a description

<Zakim> Joshue108_, you wanted to ask about certificication.

Josh: thanks!

…questions about certifications esp about WCAG.

…what features, by whom and for what purpose

George: “conforms to”

<tzviya> see http://pending.schema.org/

…would also include “who” is making the claim, and if there is any confirmation of claim

…publishers will build their own tooling

…but the process is important, since A11y involves both machine and human validation.

…for example, humans to check images

Josh: so do you require anything form WCAG for that?

<Zakim> AWK, you wanted to talk about where WCAG is and has been, and where it is heading

<Joshue108_> Thanks George and Avneesh

AWK: might be helpful to talk about WCAG is at, where its been and where it is going…

…but it looked like from the note that the gap analysis was more about the techniques

…but we know there are many things for which there are not technique (and this may always be the case)

…but if there missing success criteria for DPUB, that they get addressed

…WCAG since 2008 and large adoption

…it is a minimum bar, not a “serve everyone”

…there is AA and AAA, but there are still gaps. (for example, mobile)

…touch, DPUB, cognitive, low vision etc.

…WCAG chartered to work on extensions

…but there is a potential problem there with disconnnects between them

…what happens if you want to use a combination that are in conflict with each other

…one single standard for apps, pubs, etc.

…proposing to recharter towards WCAG 2.1 with all these various aspects included

…doing a dot release in the meantime

…but what do we do with larger issues

…WCAG is currently focused on content, but things like escapability is more about the UA.

…so not sure what would make 2.1 or would come after that?

…trying to increase speed of work, esp. with techniques (now eery 6 months)

…but moving to continual

…so if that is all you needed, that could be easy

David: Are you aware of the WCAG2ICT document? (links above)

…there is some material there about how WCAG applies to documents, so please look at it

<tzviya> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/

…also a link to “set of documents” above, so please review that

…glad to hear that human intervention is a key aspect of conformance

…in the web world, everybody says they comply with WCAG - but it’s not always true.

…most publishers will just “check the box”, so be aware

…what are you “success criteria” for this project?

…WCAG 2.1 is focused on such criteria and it would be good to align yours with ours

AWK: time for next version is mid-2018 (but not yet chartered)

…looking for those criteria by December to work from

…in terms of conformance claims, there is disc. in WCAG (but they are optional)

…we haven’t discussed if we want to change that for 2.1

…might be just as effective in a different context (eg. contract)

avneesh: such things currently being driven by DAISY, in concert with IDPF

<Zakim> rdeltour, you wanted to talk about a11y checker tool

…DAISY OK stamp

rdeltour: A11y checker is for EPUB, but how relevant for this group?

…it’s not!

…it’s just an assistant to the process but could be done entirely by humans

…but what is important, is to join the ACT TF and contribute to the rules that go beyond “the web” towards DPUB/PWP

<Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to respond to David that clients are already hiring accessibility consultancies to certify

Jeanne: work for A11y consulting firm and getting requests to certify ebooks.

Rick: clarification please.

…in conversations with laywers, “prove you can do this”.

…fortunately WCAG is becoming a standard around the world, esp. the US

…but there is still some fuzzyness about “what has to be in/with the document” and what does the UA/RS do?

…but it is clear in the marketplace that talking about the file is more well defined, but the UA/RS not so much

AWK: the initial idea was that each of these things (as well as authoring tools) would be separate guidelines

…but that the others (such as UA/RS) haven't moved forward

…as part of the claim, you have to include all the tools up the chain

…most folks don’t test against every platform, tool, reading system, etc.

…not going to change for 2.1 but for “next major version”, this could well be something important to incorporate

…as we look at the larger set of guidelines

…users just want to be able to “I did this, so I am OK"

…but that does indeed mean we need UA guidelines too...

Rick: interesting convergence of EPUB PWP etc. coming together

…and we also want folks that want/need to test and verify these things

…customers want to be able to point to claims and understand how to validate

tviya: cutting off the queue in favor of next steps

avneesh: we would really like our things in the main doc and not extensions

…will have to come up with those success criteria.

…is there a new TF to be formed is there is another way?

AWK: WCAG is not able to support another TF, even though we hve interest

avneesh: techniques first? would that be a place to start?

Josh: sure, that would be a good place to start

…people need to know how to do the work in their environments

…and fit into existing workflows

AWK: if you've got suggestions - post it and send us the link for review

<tzviya> techniques: http://www.idpf.org/epub/a11y/accessibility.html#refA11YTech

…this is a lightweight and straightforward process

<tzviya> correct link to techniques: http://www.idpf.org/epub/latest/accessibility/techniques

tzviya: let’s have a joint call since we have a document already

…will send this to the WCAG list

…this is specific to EPUB, not to DPUB or PWP

<David_MacDonald> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Success_Criteria

<David_MacDonald> the link above is to what a Success Criteria is and what is required to propose a new Success Critera

lrosenth & tzviya: will work out whether it is EPUB or DPUB group that will be collaborating here

<Joshue108_> Theres also an SC template https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/1

will be meeting with CSS after lunch - 1 hour(!)

<ivan> trackbot, start telcon

<trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 19 September 2016

<TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins

Joint Meeting with CSS WG

(Note: these notes were taken by the TabAtkins at the CSS WG, and were copied here for an easier reference; the original are at the usual URI.)

dauwhe: We wanted to discuss a few issues with CSS, mostly to get input as to what are good areas to continue working in, so we don't conflict with design/impl of CSS.

fantasai: Work on hyphenation!

dauwhe: The first thing is MQs. We have some interesting use-cases.
... Daniel created one of the them.

glazou: The epub world has an issue with MathML. Legacy systems don't know about it.
... In particular, the image fallback for MathML.
... The publishers are not really willing to invest in MathML inside of ebooks, because they're pretty sure legacy systems won't show anything.
... MathML won't render, nor will the fallback.
... One possible solution is to have a feature MQ for MathML (like the script one)
... So you can display:block/none for the (separate) image fallback.
... Not the *only* options for epub, but one of them.

TabAtkins: And this implies that the fallback si done outside of the MathML, so it'll render normally?

glazou: Yes.

Rossen: You mean native support for MathML, not mathjax?

glazou: Yes. Generally just doesn't support MathML. Sometimes they'll render the text, sometimes not; they usually don't render the fallback.

Florian: And if you do have support for script, you load MathJax?

dauwhe: These usually don't have scripting

Bill_Kasdorf: And righ tnow, because of no MathML support, the epubs don't have accessible math at all.

dino: So let's say you're not in a legacy system. You'll say display:block on the mathml and display:none on the fallback?
... So it's just testing for native; script support will be something else?

TabAtkins: In script, if it runs, you can handle that yourself.

<Zakim> liam, you wanted to note I think "gap" in CSS is not exactly the same as "gutter" in typography, as the latter would include padding and margin

tzviya: We're not just talking about MathML here. We want to talk about the future of MQs in general.

<Rossen> liam, you should speak up when you q yourself :)

tzviya: Some work with ARIA has talked about using MQs for some solutions there, so we wanted some more general ideas about MQs.
... Maybe something about affecting the chrome?

Florian: One topic is that we used to have media types; these worked poorly. We're deprecating as much as we can, and instead finding the more granular level of things that distinguish the types. Pages vs not, interactive vs static, etc.
... Granular rather than bundled. That's a big theme we've been running towards.
... Another is to expose various user prefs. User wants high-contrast, etc.
... Not working on that yet, sometimes tricky. Some OSes forcibably invert the screen or contrast; others just epxress the preference to the app.
... We need to reflect both; whether you've been inverted (and you should maybe respond to that), and whether the user requests inverting (that you're expected to do)

duga: About native support, a lot of reading systems provide polyfills.
... I don't necessarily care that the browser renders native MathML; I care whehter it'll look good on a device.
... So they need to be able to respond to that.

glazou: So we might to have the MQ respond to script backfilling support. Some DOM API.

TabAtkins: I'm okay with adding a MathML query, with the added clarification that having a switch to claim support would be useful.

dino: That forces a style reflow?

TabAtkins: Yes.

<zcorpan> hasFeature("MathML")

RESOLUTION: Add a MQ that reports MathML support, with some way for scripts to claim support.

ACTION glazou to report to Epub about the MathML MQ being approved.

<trackbot> Created ACTION-789 - Report to epub about the mathml mq being approved. [on Daniel Glazman - due 2016-09-26].

ACTION Florian to write the MathML MQ.

<trackbot> Created ACTION-790 - Write the mathml mq. [on Florian Rivoal - due 2016-09-26].


Rossen: We have a new CSS-AAM joint task force with APA.
... Intent is to define a11y APIs for all CSS modules/features that are deemed inaccessible - like the 'order' property of Flexbox.
... Just an FYI, I'll drop a link.
... Please reach out to us with a11y/CSS-related problems or requests.

dauwhe: Next: tables.
... Aligning on characters in table cells.
... Old feature in specs; it's a high-prio for publishing community. There's some Text 4 language for it.
... dbaron did a quick reading from an impl POV and raised 10 or 15 issues.

<dbaron> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-4/#character-alignment

dauwhe: We get to a point in these things where the issues need more input from the impls than on the design.
... Wondering what the next steps are on that.

<Rossen> CSS Accessibility Task Force - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-admin/2016Aug/0018.html

dauwhe: And how we get more interest when we need browser details; it gets over our heads, as people who don't write rendering engines.

Florian: I get the impression both groups are waiting on each other.
... CSS is wiating on epub to come up with examples, so dbaron's examples can be solved.

<Rossen> Here's the initial set of features interested to the CSS/APA task force https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/CSS-AAM-Potential-Features

Florian: But I think this isni't happening, because those cases don't happen in "normal" content, they're weird corner cases.
... Like, mostly aligning numbers with a period or comma.
... So not really questions about nested markup, or different font sizes, etc.

dbaron: One question is a really substantive one - about intrinsic width.
... If you're in a constrained-width situation, is this flexible? Do you break the char alignment - does your min-content width include the char alignment? Or something else?

<astearns> (summarizes issue 17)

dbaron: In general, if your table has char alignment but is too small to fit.
... Different font size is mostly not much to care, but people will use bold, and that's a different width. Maybe can punt, maybe people will notice.

dauwhe: I can try to translate your questions into actual examples to get feedback on.

dbaron: Another is what happens when you break a line in something that specifies char alignment.

dauwhe: Interesting, don't have an answer.

David_Wood: Speaking as a rep of an editor company, all of these are familiar use-cases. We run into all of them, trying to make WYSIWYG of content, especially with tiny mobile interfaces.
... Bold fonts in a RTL in a list in a table.

[violent agreement]

david_wood: I can take an action to construct examples

Florian: And preferably pair with preferred answers.

dauwhe: I can try to collect this info and bring it directly to Text 4 editors.

<dauwhe> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-4/#character-alignment

astearns: I support this, but it's makework until browsers sign onto it. Any chance browsers are going to do this?

dino: If your customers/publishing houses came to Apple asking for it, you'd get results.

Tzviya: Chemical journals ahve a huge need for it.

Bill Kasdorf: And lining up numbers in financial contexts.

dino: I'd appreciate - you can send emails to me - an email saying you're a publishing house, you ahve these customers, they need X.

r12a: Dave, when you're doing these examples, can you put up some rtl ones?

Florian: Hiroshi provided some japanese examples, don't think they're much different.

r12a: But the bidi ones I'd quite like to see.

<ivan> s/Tzivia, Wiley/Tzviya, Wiley/

dino: Send emails asap. Now is a great time to get into Apple's planning cycle. ^_^

<dino> Send email to dino@apple.com

dauwhe: High-level future task thing.
... Relationship between CSS and FO.
... Seems to be a general trend of using CSS for a lot of document creation tasks, rather than XSL-FO.
... Might be useful to have a more formal summary of what we can do right now in CSS, and what we can't.

liam: I've worked on that somewhat, but not made a document.
... Been writing a program the last few weeks to autoconvert from FO to CSS, to try and find the easy vs hard things.
... Previously I approached it architecturally, but the specs are so different that's hard.

ACTION liam to identify the things in XSL-FO that are hard to do in CSS, and write up some results.

<trackbot> Created ACTION-791 - Identify the things in xsl-fo that are hard to do in css, and write up some results. [on Liam Quin - due 2016-09-26].

dauwhe: Status of Page Floats?

Florian: Johannes did a lot of work; at Vivliostyle we want to work on it, but haven't prioritized it recently.
... The basics of level 1 are in place, needs more error-handling.

<glazou> clapierre: there is no "next version of CSS"

<astearns> me clapierre continuously

<fantasai> clapierre: http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/weblog/2011/inside-csswg/modules

[discussing whether further topics are best done here, or in the Houdini day]

<glazou> gsnedders: C(n,p)

Hanging punctuation

myles: In Text 3 we have a hanging-punct property.

<astearns> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text/#propdef-hanging-punctuation

myles: The keywords in this prop describe character sets *and* situations to apply hanging punct, and the amount to hang that punctuation.
... A single keyword does all of these.
... These keywords are not very compatible with western-style punct. They're designed for Japanese.
... Because this isn't very useful for western-style, and keywords pull together all three pieces, it's impossible to extend syntax in the future to separate these out.
... It's common for different authors to want to specify different sets of characters to hang.
... It should be postponed to level 4.

fantasai: We had a long ML discussion on this.
... Both western and eastern hanging-punc wants to say "put parens/quotes on outside"; hanging-punc does that.
... In CJK you want to hang certain characters fully outside the box, but in Western punc you want optical alignment along that edge.
... Not specific chars, based on the shape of the glyphs instead.
... Different typesetting engines have different fetaures to try and get this effect.
... Some hang hyphens, some period, some both, some more...
... In each case you're not maintaining a grid, you're just looking for a sharper edge.
... It seems to me that classing chars and saying how much they hang isn't the ideal way to control this.
... You don't want that level of details, you want to say "do optical alignment".
... So better solved by having a "pairs kerning" value that pairs a character with the edge of the paragraph.
... So just a single switch in CSS that turns that on.
... Don't know much about font data, but there is a kerning-pairs table. Is there an entry for char+end of line?

lrosenth No.

fantasai: Ah, would be useful. Powerful and simple for the author.
... I would rather provide that as a switch, rather than the author listing all the unicode tables that should hang, how much they hang, and they're basically writing a kerning table.
... Different fonts have different glyph shapes, different amount of hang is appropriate.
... Swash vs non-swash.
... So then not even character-based, it's glyph-based. Based on the font. Then CSS becomes simpler.
... Just too much complexity for author and CSS otherwise.

dauwhe: I'm gonna action myself to see what InDesign does, to see if they're that fancy.

<Zakim> liam, you wanted to note that a solution that involves editing every font might not be simple in practice

liam: Saying the solution is simpler if it just requires all the fonts in the world to be editted, slight problem there.
... There have been system in the past with "margin kerning" , a kern pair against a margin.
... Could see something like that added, with CSS being able to augment/override the kerning.
... But not sure if that's ismpler in practice than what we've seen.

fantasai: We can also just have an automatic thing where the UA just makes up values.

astearns: That's what InDesign does.

fantasai: So happy to have UA synthesize values when they don't exist.
... But adding character-based kerning in CSS is a lot of complexity for everyone, and doesn't really belong at this level.

SimonSapin: We already have codepoint sets in CSS with unicode-range.
... But not maps.

ChrisL: Two way sof doing kerning - kern-pair table, and a new way with gpos, based on contextual information.
... No way to kern at end of line, because end-of-line isn't given to the text renderer.

myles: People who know more about OPenType than me says the spec allows kerning against margins.

lrosen: But nothing in the gpos or other font tables that define that. You can synth something external, is all.

fantasai: So I'd say rather than doing this character-based (which is wrong anyway), we can add a switch that turns on automatic end-of-line kerning, and that'd be as good as what InDesign does. Then we can work with the fonts to bake this into the data tables.

lrosenth: If the goal is to do something with fonts, and we're okay with it only working with future fonts, the OT group is in the midst of doing OT advancements. Just completed SVG fonts, now doing the variable fonts.
... So good opportunity for change right now.

<ChrisL> I wonder how end of line and start of line contextual swash forms are handled though

dauwhe: I think we do want to decide on which chars hang and which don't - only hang period and quotes, but not hyphens (more subtle), or be really aggressive and hang em-dashes and question marks.
... Doing this off the spec list makes this an all-or-nothing proposal, which I'm wary of.

fantasai: We also have requests from CJK that they want specific punc chars as linebreak.
... And we're like, that's great, but we'll start with generic sets, and in the future add specific controls.
... Much more complicated than doing presets.

<lrosenth> @chrisL - a good question. I’ll see if I can find out

dauwhe: The set hereis inadequate right now, as it has no quotation marks. Definitely want that, possibly a hyphen.

fantasai: Other than quotes, what common things do you want to control? Chars that are common in books/etc.

dauwhe: open/close single/double quote, period, comma, hyphen

myles: In Latin it's uncommon to hang brackets/parens/etc, but the spec hangs them.

Bill_Kasdorf: Even on a char basis, French quotes aren't the same as English - French quotes might not want hanging when you do want English ones.

fantasai: Could see wanting hanging on first/last, but not internal lines.
... Spec currently does that. Only periods/commas/??? hang internally.

David_wood: People want to quote English in French, this is common.

fantasai: You can use whatever quotes you want.

koji: I disagree with fantasai about fonts.
... Some fonts want 49% hang vs 51% hang, we dont' wnat to go there.
... The idea of pair kerning on beginning/end of line isn't great for browsers.
... We shape logical runs, *then* make linebreaks.
... When we pair-kern, we need to reshape on every linebreak, and that's very expensive.
... s/disagree/agree/

myles: My proposal was to push this out to Text 4. Judging by disagreement, sounds like a good idea.
... It also seems very clear that some people want to hang different punc. Maybe font is one input, but not *only* input.
... I think having web author list codepoints would be extremely easy to create typographically bad-looking hanging paragraphs.
... People forget the codepoints all the time, or put in the wrong codepoints.

Florian: I'm convinced there's no easy answer for western punc. Not convinced the property as designed can't be extended to this later. For CJK, it might need extension, but it *works* and is clear.

<SimonSapin> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/category/Pd/list.htm

Florian: So I'd rather not push it, unless it currently prevents us from extending in the future.

myles: I opened with the idea that the current values conflate char sets and ways to hang them, and a reasonable future will separate those out.

fantasai: I think they'll default; there would be an auto value.

<eae> astearns: there's "only" about 30 of them... ;p

fantasai: So we can add anothe rproperty, or make this a shorthand; as long as there's a good initial value matching our current, I don't think we're blocked.
... So I also want to keep the current, as it does work for CJK, and for pullquotes it works for Latin. Refinements I think we can extend into later.

dauwhe: I would first like to get together and design it for Latin, amke sure there's no conflict.

Rossen: Objections to pushing to level 4?

fantasai: Implemented in WebKit?

Rossen: But they're the ones trying to push it. ^_^

r12a: What about CJK users that want it now rather than in a few years?

Florian: The JP gov *will* care about referring to soemthing that's not CR.

fantasai: I think we shouldn't push it unless we find that it's not going to work.

koji: epub referred to the spec before it was CR...

myles: The keywords are "first", "end", "force-start", "force-last". And these specify char sets.

fantasai: Right. If we want to customize, we can add a different property, or extend this prop to specify.

<bobbytung> Hanging Punctuation not happens to Trad. Chinese. Simp. Chinese ebooks recently follow japanese rules in several Reading System.

fantasai: Like "first brackets"

<fantasai> e.g. hanging-punctuation: first quotes last quotes;

koji: correction: this property was not referred to by epub.

<fantasai> Can split into longhands, or add a parallel property

skk: epub already renders with hanging-punctuation, even if not explicitly referencing the spec.

fantasai: I think we should leave it at level 3, unless someone shows me a problem.

dauwhe: I'll work on the syntax.

r12a: Worried we're on a closed community; leaving it off of epub list might have just been an oversight.

Florian: I'd say you can't nicely typeset a book in Japanese without this, and as it is works for most books.

<gregwhitworth> https://speakerdeck.com/jensimmons/proposal-to-csswg-sept-2016

RESOLUTION: Keep hanging-punctuation in level 3, marked as at-risk, study whether it needs to be punted.

Regions proposal from Jen.

jensimmons [introduces self]

[ longtime designer]

jensimmons: Wanted to talk about Regions spec and alternative, and how it ties to Grid
... Grid is totally awesome
... Can do repsonsive layout in one line of code. Thank you everybody
... [shows cool examples]
... writing-modes, transform / rotate, etc.
... You can make Mondiran responsive
... Auto-flows, let Grid handle math
... Grid is fantastic if you have items and you want to place the items
... Can do that traditional way, or do that by adding wehite space
... But when it comes to long passages of text, still stuck with one giant column
... You can center it or right-align it
... Or break it up with some images
... But stuck with one long column
... multicol is awesome... except [scroll up and down problem with 3 cols of text]

<ChrisL> If only we had some way to calibrate output devices and maybe express that in some sort of color profile

<ChrisL> then we could see the presentation

jensimmons: We need some way to place items like this [arrows showing compex flow with short block, wide block, three cols, another spannign block, two col bolock
... Or do rows of multicols

[muil cols in rows, each shorter than viewport]

jensimmons: Could scroll-snap, but don't have to
... Got regions spec
... Regions spe cworks like this

[shows pile of empty divs, plus a few lines of CSS]

jensimmons: Need a bunch of elmeents to use
... You flow your actual content into a variablish thing (named flow), then later you pull out into empty divs
... Not in agreement about this, 'cuz have to useempty divs, add/subtract divs in JS
... Been wondering can we do this in CSS alone?
... Obsessed with this question
... I like this part (flow-into: foobar)
... Then see Grid, I see grid
... We have layout we want in grid, but need to be able to flow things into / out of boxes
... I think ths solution to this is also solution to another problem
... Other problem -
... Let's say ou have a layout
... Title, figure, article, bio
... Can lay these things out on to grid
... What if you want to put a line down the column
... What if you wnated a border down the full length?
... Could put a border on each item, but not on the edge of a grid, or edge of cells
... Or here, got items with background colors... bu what if I want to put a background on the cell?
... Want color blocking on the page, change it on responsive breakpoints?
... Grid doesn't have a way to style empty cells
... Rache Andrew says at every workshop, people aks how to style empty cells
... Design like this [ block borders between random things] can't do it
... or this [circle in the background; retangle in the corner]
... I know how to lay this out, but don't have anything ot style
... How do solve this righ tnow?
... Add empty divs!


jensimmons: I know how to do this... spacer gifs as <div>s
... Solution is to solve the problem you haven't realized we have yet

<rachelandrew> I get asked the backgrounds and borders question re grid, pretty much every time (unprompted).

jensimmons: Trick of the thing is this
... If I want to style an item on the grid, no problem: place the item, then style it with a color
... What I want to do is to take the thing inside the curly braces and put it outside the braces
... grid: 3/1/4/2 { background: blue; }
... What else in CSS does this kind of thing?
... Animations does that, with @keyframes
... How about we do something like this?

@region foobar { grid: 3 /1/4/2 }

foobar { background:blue }

jensimmons: Name the rgion, target it, and style it
... Let's say we have multiple grid, maybe @region #grid-container foo bar { ... }
... or @grid-container:region(foobar) { ... }
... So in this example, place first three things
... Next, ceate a color block
... Whenever you use grid to explicitly place items
... OK
... But when using auto-placement, just get lots of rows of things
... Not a lot of ways to do creative things in that space
... What if I wanted the item in the 2nd to last column tilt a bit
... I always want that one tilted, however it auto-flows?
... Can do it with this design
... Ability to style a place in the grid, not just an item in the grid
... Another item on my running list of questions...
... I want to skip cells
... I want a bunch of holes in my gri: auto-flow, but skip these cells
... Maybe reuse this syntax for that
... How do you flow content through regions?
... So far can define a place on the grid, give it a name
... Also saying to name a region chain
... Looks like @region-chain .... { 1 { grid ... } 2 { ... } ... }
... Target a named area, tareget a region
... This make sit possible to easily switch from one region chain to another at any break point
... Named grid areas and named regions gets complicated
... Have to rename grid areas every time you want to chang eyour region flow
... This complicates things na dmake sit harder
... Name areas for styling the areas... but have the rgion chain be separate
... Here are some examples
... Here's a bunch of paragraphs
... Grid on my main element
... Region chain, I want these particular areas on the grid to be in the region chain
... In ths way as well,I could say text is bigger in this region
... text is less in this other region
... Here's all the code in one slide [10 line sof code]
... Antoher thing about it
... YOu have mobile version, responsive biger
... Right now reordering wrt ads, etc is done by screwing up a11y
... want to place ads in particular way
... Here have content in <main>, but mix it with ads that are not in <main>

j Here I have two region chains. One is maincontent flow

Another one is the adcontent flow

jensimmons: Great to have ability to pull content from another part of the DOM for this case
... Would be great to pull content from one place and pull it into grid in another part of the docuemnt
... Also helsp to solve CSS shapes
... Can create multiple regions, and then pull content from one to another
... Solves a lot of use cases of exclusions
... A lot of things we want, thought of way off in the dstance, could cover partially by this stuff
... I do think there's a need to fgure out how to do a repeat syntax
... e.g. want an unknown amount of regions
... But maybe a way to do this
... So requires grid, using grid to do heavy lifting for layout sizing targeting, etc.
... Three things: ability to define a region
... property for "skip me during auto flow"
... And then region chain

Rossen: Thank you for presentation

TabAtkins: I saw four things in here
... First is decorative pseudos for grid
... Sounds fine

<Rossen> aah, sorry glazou

TabAtkins: Specify chunk of grid, specify whitelisted properties

<Rossen> glazou, I'll give you an extra q spot

TabAtkins: Second is saying whether those take up auto-flow cases
... Might even be able to dos oemthing automatic there
... Example of tilting something
... Was that selecting a normal item in the grid based on the postion in the grid?

jensimmons: My though twas that the pseudo is like a container for the item in that area

TabAtkins: spanning items ignore it then?

jensimmons: I guess
... Would need to limit CSS that applies

TabAtkins: Reparenting under the pseudo.
... Not sure how difficult it is

plinss: We insert anonymous boxes

<rachelandrew> for some other background stuff, I did a bit of playing around with Grid + Regions as it keeps coming up as a possible answer to certain use cases https://rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2016/03/25/css-grid-and-css-regions/

TabAtkins: Never insert a pseudo-element as parent of another box

plinss: Anonymous boxes were a long time ago intended to be styleable

<rachelandrew> https://rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2016/06/17/thinking-about-page-floats-figures-regions-and-grids/ demos in those posts.

glazou: You have summarized what used to be in a lot of our drafts -- @slots
... I think Apple has some earlier version of @slot

dino: Not in WebKit impl

jensimmons: Yes, read that stuff
... Simlar, but not

<ChrisL> twitter points me to https://blogs.igalia.com/mrego/2014/12/10/web-engines-hackfest-2014/

glazou: We had something approachingyour wishes
... Alan and I discusseddiscussed region chains

<ChrisL> "On the other hand, I’ve been talking with Mihnea Ovidenie about CSS Regions and how CSS Grid Layout could help to avoid the criticism regarding empty HTML elements required to create regions."

glazou: Much of this considered, and rejected

jensimmons: Yeah, read up on all that. Was concerend of getting sam ersponse
... But we're also in a different place now than we were then

glazou: THe proposals were made to solve these issues
... Now we have a use case. At that time feedback was internal, not pulled in from external world
... There was almost no progress on regions side... only one implmenter of regions, only one for shapes
... Basically no interoperable progress in the browser world

Florian: Quick point, I mostly agree with you
... A subtle but important difference from before

<Rossen> q Florian

TabAtkins: Fourth point is that region chain is identical to region chains from before, has same problems as regions with later bits of dom and layout effects
... Possible with heuristics or iterative layout, both bad ideas.
... I think anything like region chains will be problematic

astearns: I think Tab is corret that ordered chain in your proposal has all the problems Tab described
... But grid-order pseudos don't have those problems

TabAtkins: Clarification, if we're just handlign overflow-style regions, where something has to be a set size and remainder after overflow is somewhere else, theoretically more handeable
... Cannot reasonably do balancing across regions.
... Might not be enough power to do what you want

jensimmons: I think putting stuff in a region in a differe tpart of the DOM is optional
... My instinct is that something is different here
... A lot of the questions, the naswers are handled by grid
... This is about putting things into a layout, not calculating the layout
... I read some of the earlier conversation... that allowed regions to do any layout, abspos whatever
... Let's do xyz regions because grid takes longer...
... I think we should simplify regions to only work within context of grid.
... Later, talk later

TabAtkins: I think the grid layout algo still has those exact problems
... Very scary circularity issues around size of tracks

<Zakim> david_wood, you wanted to ask DPub folks whether Jen Simmon's proposal would offer a solution for pagination.

david_wood: Wanted to quckly ask dpubig
... How does this affect pagination?

Rossen: Orthogonal

[nodding agreement from ? and dauwhe]

lrosenth: Flow is different

tzviya: lots of problems....

Florian: I agree with Tab's concerna bout this not solving everything
... I think I have a propopsal for solving things
... Havne't studied your styling empty grid slots proposal
... ... then maybe works
... Wrt fragmentation, don't see how it's orthogonal
... If you're using Grid to make your tmeplate, you want different templates on different pages
... So this does interact with pagination to have a set of templates, to ick one in each page

Rossen: We have a module for this -- page templates

Florian: Rehahs of that module is my idea for making this work

Rossen: One thing I wanted to bring as part of conversation, I love the fact that everyone is passionate about solving layout problem here
... Other side of equation is attaching event listeners and interaction, so this needs to be solved as well
... We can have all of the event model into CSS... we can reimplement HTML into CSS...
... But that point stands

jensimmons: Thought about that a lot

Rossen: This is a major sticking point, for when we were implementing regions ths was one of the first requirements
... app developer wnated specific event handlers per region

jensimmons: Style the region

<Zakim> Bert, you wanted to ask about region chains and pagination

Bert: My conern is related to Florian's comments
... In template module, wanted to attach grid to a page, e.g. left and right pages different
... If I have content goes into a slot, but second template doesn't have a correspondign slot, where does the content go?

glazou: I think that the rendering in iBooks solved that issue, not sure

jensimmons: This idea definitely depends on grid
... Up to the author to create layout that they need with grid
... This justgives author a way to flow into grid

Bert: page size is smaller.. content doesn't fit

SteveZ: Just wanted to see if I understood what Tab said
... If layotu cna be done indpeendnetly of content, no problem with region chains
... E.g. all fixed-size boxes

TabAtkins: Not no prolbems, just less problems
... Have to lay out into varying-widht containers

fantasai: That exists in paged media, handled by css-break spec

SteveZ: If you estrict self to grids whose layouts were defined before ocntent added
... No particular problem to regions that didn't exist with fragmentation today

dauwhe: I'm hearing that this might be hard, but it's absolutely worth doing
... What I see on this scren is beautiful, cuts right to the heart of what we want to do in design
... Even first paragraph on first page being different size... such a fundamental thing in our world
... These are the problems we are here to solve.

<TabAtkins> fantasai: One Q: agree that we need to style pieces of the grid, straightforward.

<TabAtkins> fantasai: How much of the regions stuff that you want to do here can we do with overflow:fragments?

<TabAtkins> fantasai: Has less problems than arbitrary regions.

<TabAtkins> jensimmons: Shoudl code up some examples and see what it's like.

<TabAtkins> jensimmons: Should choose something that'll seem elegant to authors.

<ChrisL> Would like to see more worked examples and get author feedback

<TabAtkins> tzviya: When you tell people about overflow:fragment, they don't want to do it.

<astearns> need a way to ensure that the overflow fragments can't be assigned grid slots that are not in grid order

<TabAtkins> fantasai: I mean, it's new. People have a way of doing grids right now that will be abandoned when they use Grid, it's revolutionary.

<TabAtkins> fantasai: I think this goes in line with what we want to do in CSS future.

Meetings' recap

garth: agenda is recap and overflow. Overflow could take an hour.
... wcag and regions discussion - any recap or questions?
... Recap from css: media queries, we got action and decision

ivan: Media query for presence of mathml is accepted, but it is not clear when it will really appear in UAs

garth: Interesting thing was API for JS to tell UA that support really does exist (polyfill support)

ivan: Florian has an action to make a specific proposal for the spec

george: What does this mean for a publisher?

ivan: Publisher can put in an image element and mathml, then add css that say "if mathml is present, show the mathml, if it is not present then show the image"

<everyone> : mathml is still in the dom, just not displayed (no css boxes). Would default to image.

tzviya: document is forthcoming, we will see the specifics when florian is done

george: In a11y spec, don't really know what to do with math now. We could just use this as the receommendation?

ivan: Depends. It still has a long path to implementation.

george: But the default is image, so we are fine, right?

ivan: But it will drop the mathml for a current reading system, since it won't know about the media queries

george: summary from APA Meeting

<tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/561

george: Want to make sure ARIA details are available for everyone
... Came up with media query to determine if nothing was shown, whether there was some indication of the ARIA details, and whether the details would be shown or not shown depending on the query
... the semantics with aria-details is that there is an associated extended description

david_wood: What about implicit aria semantics?

<tzviya> https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/WD-wai-aria-1.1-20160317/#aria-details

george: if the role == presentation then it is not even in the a11y dom

tzviya: aria-details is not a role, it is a property that is always explicit
... can add an extended description to any element
... 2 questions - did Michael provide the requirements grid?

george: Yes

tzviya: This started with an issue on the css issue tracker, was there discussion about moving this out of css?

george: some time was spent on that, but they didn't get to a place where a browser could display anything

Bill_Kasdorf_: Is the description external?

george: only on the existing document

avneesh: could be external

george: Yes can internally point to an external thing

garth: How does it work?

george: aria-details="#abc"
... somewhere there is an abc
... abc could be a link.

tzviya: But may not be supported (external links)
... need to work with html or css folks and making this work

ivan: Too close to long-desc, so we really have to get it working
... from a political standpoint

david_wood: PWP could get difficult if not live on the web

garth: Back to external resources and packaging, general problem

Bill_Kasdorf_: could imagine pointing to external audio file

george: yes
... made clear that publishing community does not see aria as only for disabilities. Anyone could see this if they want
... example: webgl rotating heart, with a description for a 3d printer model for it
... made very clear that everyone could find it. One complaint about long-desc
... the other thing was in the diagrammar model there are many alt descriptions
... [tactile, etc]
... depending on settings, one or more of these might be selected
... ETS example: low vision needed a description and needed simplified language
... pick from the list and present it
... there was vehement advocacy for the MQ to provide personalization in the type of resource that was available to provide

romain: Can just use a css selector to display the correct item

ivan: until the aria comes to agreement with css and html wgs, we can not really rely on it

<clapierre> http://diagramcenter.org/standards-and-practices/content-model.html

ivan: hope there is an action item on resolving with those groups
... otherwise this feels unfinished

romain: talking about what "we need to do

ivan: Who is "we"? Very important question

romain: What to do with the description is not clear
... Polyfill could look for the attribute, then display the icon and display the description when it is clicked/selected
... maybe we could create the polyfill and see if ti solves the issues

lrosenth: Need to understand what the correct UX is for various groups and documents
... exploring is a good thing to do

george: Rich was saying MQs were at the OS level

garth: Not sure that is right

ivan: Not sure if what Rich was saying was facts or wishful thinking? We are getting contradicting reactions

george: Also heard about the MQ for mathml

ivan: The mathml was easy, this sounds harder

tzviya: Needs fleshing out
... need to get response of css wg first to understand what will happen here

romain: need customizable MQ

lrosenth: heard at css wg that worried about privacy

avneesh: 2 uses of MQ - toggle and user customizability

garth: Is that all?
... other 2 topics at css
... hanging-punctuation discussion. Are used in Japan, but not by epub
... may get deferred to level 4, leaving at-risk for now
... long presentation of grid layout and regions

<HeatherF> Publishers in the room started salivating over the idea of grid layout and regions.

garth: Nice flow stuff, there was a proposal, but with some pushback from vendors

<tzviya> https://speakerdeck.com/jensimmons/proposal-to-csswg-sept-2016

garth: long term, but of interest to people in this room

david_wood: coordination with html wg: if we think we are waiting on them, do they know?

ivan: There are open issues, but don't know what the priority is

tzviya: I am working on the behind the scenes side
... they are really busy, so hard to talk to them

lrosenth: Do you want a quick report about the image stuff in css?

garth: yes

lrosenth: Topic was HDR high dynamic range images as it relates to color
... What are the problems?
... css 4 color spec has everything you need, but going forward have to move from ICC4 to ICC max

<lrosenth> iccMAX - http://www.color.org/iccmax-status.xalter

UCR discussion followup

garth: Spoke to Mike Smith (sideshowbarker)
... explained the 5 layers in pwp
... some might be browser native, others not

garth: did not get any pushback

Invited him to tomorrows discussion

scribe: We got somewhere this morning, do we want to reformulate

ivan: Reformulation brought forward some issues we can't avoid
... need a section on the concept of multiple documents/resources
... and need to address online/offline
... which gets to manifest, etc
... What exactly is the model for handling a PWP?
... My model was as much as possible by the browser
... but there might be some things (eg TOC) which is not of interest to the web as a whole
... therefore, in my naive thinking there is something you can add to a browser to handle those things
... I got some sort of pushback from Marcos, extensions are hacky and old

<everyone> : talking, words words words

lrosenth: wanted to separate browser from browser engine

ivan: You are right and something we will have to do
... Using my browser, I hit a PWP in my browser and read it (offline even) and not do anything (maybe via extension)
... other approach is use the engine, but still need an app that is special
... then there is a second part of the ucr document, we know how it works with the browser
... for whatever reasons we want a packaged version of the doc, like epub
... That thing is separate with it's own use cases.
... That part is independent of the browser
... Have impression that there is a pushback to get to packaged version from the browser
... the UCR has to be cut in two along those lines
... These two areas are subject of separate standards
... That also gets to a number of technical issues we can put on the table
... Views Marcos and Mike as canaries. They represent the web community
... very happy about this feedback

lrosenth: In browser and want to see a PWP. Difference between seeing it with an extension or not
... for example, Readium is an extension

ivan: No, it is an app, not an extension

billm: don't need to install anything

ivan: App takes over UI, etc

<HeatherF> Next time, we really really need to stick with a queue, or do without notes!

ivan: And other extension don't work with it

lrosenth: Gave Readium too much credit
... if you have to install anything it is no longer the browser, it is the browser engine

ivan: Not what he thinks Marcos was saying

garth: Ivan, you were heading to a place of pro-active tunes to pwp

ivan: Let's not start editing the UCR doc yet
... work in UCR is separated in two, we need to keep that in mind

garth: is dividing the stack ok as p,wp?

lrosenth: Yes, that is fine

boris_anthony: Presenting
... Need to understand the organization and terms
... maybe we can discuss on Wednesday?
... What do we think of as a minimum viable pwp?
... Like minimum viable product from software side
... we need to outline what these things mean

garth: Need to be careful about cutting back to uninteresting
... don't want to ship a bad product

ivan: Don't want to reinvent basic web concepts

boris_anthony: Just want to understand how we, in the group, think about this

ivan: For me, an example we need is an article in a scholarly journal
... multiple files, is a publication, needs to be archived
... might be a single html file, simple css, few images
... not necessarily complex

boris_anthony: A lot of this comes close to progressive web applications
... how is pwp different from pwa

ivan: What exactly is pwa

tzviya: we can invite someone at some points

garth: tomorrow we reconvene at 9 with POE meeting
... See if we can get Mike to join around 10 or 10:30
... Chairs will figure it out
... start with Ivan's hand waving
... then maybe we can start slicing the UCR
... then maybe some discussion of some tracker issues

david_wood: Asked if our goal was to produce a format or something beyond it?
... seems like this is where we were years ago
... Can't figure out the difference between a web archive and a pwp
... very confused about what the group is trying to do

garth: our current definition is very close to a web archive

david_wood: Still in the situation of not understanding what the group is doing
... maybe just myself, but worried that the group doesn't know

tzviya: Interesting perspective, and have called us out on an important point
... you are hearing differing opinions in the group

david_wood: Was expecting to have consensus by now

tzviya: I have an opinion, but don't want to discuss it now

ivan: Need more time

david_wood: Is it a format or more than a format?

garth: Is epub a format?

david_wood: Yes
... ecosystem evolved to use the format
... is a pwp a format in the hope it will adopted by industry or some is it broader than that?

ivan: I think it is a format
... just a format bringing EPUB to general web browsing

david_wood: So it a collection of webby stuff
... how is it different than a web archive?

garth: may well be web stuff packaged in an epub
... other people might want a different sort of package
... could be multiple package formats

tzviya: Document is really vague, so it is hard to understand

ivan: difference between pwp and web archive: the use is different
... archive is an archive. Publication needs the information the make it readable as a publication
... things like a TOC for end user, etc
... may well be the same as web archive spec (if such exists)
... the user community is different

lrosenth: Other difference, web archive is fully self contained, there is no external comms
... for pwp there are use cases to reach out for live things

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

  1. Add a MQ that reports MathML support, with some way for scripts to claim support.
  2. Keep hanging-punctuation in level 3, marked as at-risk, study whether it needs to be punted.
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.143 (CVS log)
$Date: 2016/09/20 08:09:39 $