<scribe> scribe: Detlev

<patrick_h_lauke> (notes that we have a high percentage of german speakers taking over today ;) )

Kathy: Shadi has taken over as staff contact, replacing Jeanne

<patrick_h_lauke> i have a hard stop just before the hour btw

Kathy: Jeanne still around though

Shadi: ...introducing himself - Vienna , focus on EOWG, picking up work in MATF

Alan: just changed jobs, works in England / Canada

<patrick_h_lauke> (now remembering first time i met shadi in madrid in 2004 https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2004/02/exchange.html)

Chris: native mobile SW expert, automated tools and accessibility

<Alan_Smith> Alan: I sorry, I work in the USA but had assisted clients in UK and Canada as well

Detlev: testing devices and apps fro a11y

Jatin: also working in a11y (sorry did not fully understand)

Marc: long involvenment in WCAG WG

Patrick; working at paciello group, focus on (mobile) web, focussing on pointer events group

Kathy: people still adding comments to survey
... survey closing today

<Kim> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Discussion:_Touch_and_Force_Touch

Kathy: resuming a discussion about touch / force touch - capabilities, a11y challenges

Patrick: starting point pressure info (touch, force touch), widened discussion to tilt (pencil) - wondered if we need a differentiation in device manipulation incl. shacing, step sensores etc. - coming to the conclusion that all this falls under the categroy of additional input capabilities
... could be technically sensors or switches or other means of activation - maybe we dont differentiate these (as it keeps growing) but treat them as one
... switches may be mapped to the generalised concept of keyboard access, which might include sequential access via swiping on touch screens
... core is making sure things are accessible sequentially

everything else may come under "additional input capabilities" (including touch) with a focus that all these should also be available via another mechanism to get to same result

scribe: so there aren't functions that are exclusively available via specific input mechanisms

Kathy: need to look hoe all this can go into different SCs

Alan: likes what patrick suggested

Marc: still trying to sdigest what patrick suggested - likes to keep things simple - separating out can lea dto endless splitting

Kathy: Not clear what all this should be called / labeled - good aspect is that new things come up all the time

Patrick: additional input capabilities implies a baseline

Marc: Could it be non-keyboard input? It needs to be understandable to the public

Chris: Likes idea to define things by calling it "not-this"

Patrick: Cautions that 'keyboard' is already a difficult term since some input types such as tocu swipes may be mapped to keyboard
... non-pointer input might work
... in pointer events spec pointer inputs are defined - note that keyboard and keyboard like input is not covered

Kim: comment on non-pointer input - stylus and tilt may sit uneasily with pointer

<patrick_h_lauke> agree with kim, there's a...lack of actual accepted terms

Kim: tocu and extended touch (force, tilting etc. - not easy to handle

Patrick: we are lacking good vocab in this emerging area
... get away form vendor-specific terms
... basic pointer just the basic x,y coords

<patrick_h_lauke> ACTION: patrick to try and come up with some non-pointer/pointer/fancy touch definition [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-53 - Try and come up with some non-pointer/pointer/fancy touch definition [on Patrick Lauke - due 2016-06-23].

<patrick_h_lauke> (sorry stole your thunder detlev)

<patrick_h_lauke> related: mentioned the note about keyboard in pointer events - see https://w3c.github.io/pointerevents/#intro

Kathy: Go back to device manipulation draft and ajust it

<patrick_h_lauke> (which is already in the level 1 spec https://www.w3.org/TR/pointerevents/#intro

<Kim> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.

Kathy: Take a couple of mins to read

<Kathy> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.

<patrick_h_lauke> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.#Proposed_Guideline_2.6

Patrick: 3 categories: (1) keyboard / sequential access, (2) basic pointer stylus mouse, (3) additional capabilities ("fancy" mouse)

<patrick_h_lauke> there may be a need to define a "cascade" - use 3), but make sure it works with 2), but for 2), also make sure it works for 1)

Patrick: so there needs to be a fallback cascade where 3 is available in 2, and 2 is available via 1
... the essence is there but we need to find clear expressions

Kathy: we need to make sure not to miss important points / use cases

<patrick_h_lauke> ACTION: patrick to take first stab at generalising https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.#Proposed_Guideline_2.6 in light of his proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-54 - Take first stab at generalising https://www.w3.org/wai/gl/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/guideline_2.6:_make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.#proposed_guideline_2.6 in light of his proposal [on Patrick Lauke - due 2016-06-23].

Kathy: Patrick will incorporate comments, revise

<Kathy> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/2016-0509/results

Kathy: Members of WCA GWG have given feedback to touch & pointer (in survey)
... some editorial
... Question was if focus on touch workable with AT should be extended
... will put together survey to get feedback from those not on the call
... Lets talk about 2.5.4

<Kathy> https://patrickhlauke.github.io/getting-touchy-presentation/#134

<patrick_h_lauke> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2016Jun/0021.html

Patrick: question re. 2.5.4 with two separate sizes for activation area, one for touch one for (mouse) pointer

--Alastair questioned whether this can be told apart by UA

scribe: there are mechanisms to detect whetehr user is using touch or fine pointer as input - this might come late until input happens - wouldnot want to change the interface on the fly
... but there are w<ay for users to select what interface they want - default may be touch-friendly with switch to optimise for fine pointer
... including automatic detection and prompt
... other situations are a known scenario (POS systems) or situations where its known that no touch input is feasible

Kathy: For questions in survey we need to formulate responses

<jeanne> +1 to 2 sizes.

Kathy: anyone disagrees with having these two toch sizes?

Alan: generally agrees - observations reg. lower case x for closing dialogs - big enough?

Patrick: authors can ensure active area is large enough or site is appropriate, ar wrap checkboxes in labels that are large enough or build fake ones
... many browsers do better these days but we need to call upon UA makers to get their act together

Kathy: Next week's call will look at update of device manipulation, check holiday absences

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.144  of Date: 2015/11/17 08:39:34  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Found Scribe: Detlev
Inferring ScribeNick: Detlev

WARNING: No "Topic:" lines found.

Present: chriscm Kathy patrick_h_lauke shadi Kiim Kim marcjohlic Detlev Jatin Jeanne
Regrets: Henny David Aistair Alistair

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 16 Jun 2016
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-mobile-a11y-minutes.html
People with action items: patrick

WARNING: No "Topic: ..." lines found!  
Resulting HTML may have an empty (invalid) <ol>...</ol>.

Explanation: "Topic: ..." lines are used to indicate the start of 
new discussion topics or agenda items, such as:
<dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report