IRC log of mobile-a11y on 2016-06-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:59:55 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-mobile-a11y-irc
14:59:57 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:59:57 [Zakim]
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14:59:59 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
15:00:00 [trackbot]
Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:00:00 [trackbot]
Date: 16 June 2016
15:00:00 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
15:00:28 [laura]
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15:00:38 [Kim]
Agenda+ Continue with discussion: Discussion page for force touch, requiring touch: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Discussion:_Touch_and_Force_Touch
15:00:40 [Kim]
Agenda+ Comments from WCAG
15:00:41 [Kim]
Agenda+ Next Steps – next meeting June 16
15:01:29 [Kim]
regrets+ Henny, David, Aistair
15:02:17 [Kathy]
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15:02:19 [Kim]
regrets+ Alistair
15:02:40 [chriscm]
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15:02:52 [chriscm]
present+ chriscm
15:03:01 [Kathy]
present+ Kathy
15:03:20 [patrick_h_lauke]
present+ patrick_h_lauke
15:03:29 [Alan_Smith]
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15:03:39 [Jatin]
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15:04:12 [shadi]
present+ shadi
15:04:37 [Detlev]
scribe: Detlev
15:05:11 [patrick_h_lauke]
(notes that we have a high percentage of german speakers taking over today ;) )
15:05:11 [Kim]
present+ Kiim
15:05:43 [Kim]
present+ Kim
15:06:43 [Detlev]
Kathy: Shadi has taken over as staff contact, replacing Jeanne
15:06:47 [patrick_h_lauke]
i have a hard stop just before the hour btw
15:06:58 [Detlev]
..Jeanne still around though
15:07:58 [Detlev]
Shadi: ...introducing himself - Vienna , focus on EOWG, picking up work in MATF
15:08:18 [marcjohlic]
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15:09:02 [Detlev]
Alan: just changed jobs, works in England / Canada
15:09:05 [patrick_h_lauke]
(now remembering first time i met shadi in madrid in 2004 https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2004/02/exchange.html)
15:09:38 [Detlev]
Chris: native mobile SW expert, automated tools and accessibility
15:09:52 [Alan_Smith]
Alan: I sorry, I work in the USA but had assisted clients in UK and Canada as well
15:10:50 [marcjohlic]
present+ marcjohlic
15:10:53 [Detlev]
Detlev: testing devices and apps fro a11y
15:11:53 [Detlev]
Jatin: also working in a11y (sorry did not fully understand)
15:12:14 [Detlev]
Marc: long involvenment in WCAG WG
15:12:54 [Detlev]
Patrick; working at paciello group, focus on (mobile) web, focussing on pointer events group
15:13:29 [Detlev]
Kathy: people still adding comments to survey
15:13:40 [Detlev]
... survey closing today
15:14:15 [Kim]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Discussion:_Touch_and_Force_Touch
15:15:24 [Detlev]
Kathy: resuming a discussion about touch / force touch - capabilities, a11y challenges
15:18:08 [Detlev]
Patrick: starting point pressure info (touch, force touch), widened discussion to tilt (pencil) - wondered if we need a differentiation in device manipulation incl. shacing, step sensores etc. - coming to the conclusion that all this falls under the categroy of additional input capabilities
15:19:18 [Detlev]
..could be technically sensors or switches or other means of activation - maybe we dont differentiate these (as it keeps growing) but treat them as one
15:20:10 [Detlev]
...switches may be mapped to the generalised concept of keyboard access, which might include sequential access via swiping on touch screens
15:20:38 [Detlev]
..core is making sure things are accessible sequentially
15:21:38 [Detlev]
everything else may come under "additional input capabilities" (including touch) with a focus that all these should also be available via another mechanism to get to same result
15:22:18 [Detlev]
...so there aren't functions that are exclusively available via specific input mechanisms
15:23:04 [Kathy]
q?
15:23:05 [Detlev]
Kathy: need to look hoe all this can go into different SCs
15:23:33 [Detlev]
Alan: likes what patrick suggested
15:24:38 [Detlev]
Marc: still trying to sdigest what patrick suggested - likes to keep things simple - separating out can lea dto endless splitting
15:25:30 [Detlev]
Kathy: Not clear what all this should be called / labeled - good aspect is that new things come up all the time
15:25:58 [Detlev]
Patrick: additional input capabilities implies a baseline
15:26:33 [Detlev]
Marc: Could it be non-keyboard input? It needs to be understandable to the public
15:26:54 [patrick_h_lauke]
q+
15:27:17 [Detlev]
Chris: Likes idea to define things by calling it "not-this"
15:28:29 [Detlev]
Patrick: Cautions that 'keyboard' is already a difficult term since some input types such as tocu swipes may be mapped to keyboard
15:28:51 [Detlev]
...non-pointer input might work
15:29:21 [Kim]
q+
15:29:51 [Detlev]
Patrick: in pointer events spec pointer inputs are defined - note that keyboard and keyboard like input is not covered
15:29:56 [patrick_h_lauke]
q-
15:30:37 [Detlev]
Kim: comment on non-pointer input - stylus and tilt may sit uneasily with pointer
15:30:55 [patrick_h_lauke]
agree with kim, there's a...lack of actual accepted terms
15:31:42 [Detlev]
Kim: tocu and extended touch (force, tilting etc. - not easy to handle
15:32:24 [Detlev]
Patrick: we are lacking good vocab in this emerging area
15:32:57 [Detlev]
...get away form vendor-specific terms
15:33:16 [Detlev]
..basic pointer just the basic x,y coords
15:33:31 [Kathy]
q?
15:33:36 [Kathy]
q- Kim
15:33:39 [patrick_h_lauke]
ACTION: patrick to try and come up with some non-pointer/pointer/fancy touch definition
15:33:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-53 - Try and come up with some non-pointer/pointer/fancy touch definition [on Patrick Lauke - due 2016-06-23].
15:33:55 [patrick_h_lauke]
(sorry stole your thunder detlev)
15:34:22 [patrick_h_lauke]
related: mentioned the note about keyboard in pointer events - see https://w3c.github.io/pointerevents/#intro
15:34:39 [Detlev]
Kathy: Go back to device manipulation draft and ajust it
15:34:47 [patrick_h_lauke]
(which is already in the level 1 spec https://www.w3.org/TR/pointerevents/#intro
15:35:11 [Kim]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.
15:35:44 [Detlev]
Kathy: Take a couple of mins to read
15:37:47 [Kathy]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.
15:37:59 [patrick_h_lauke]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.#Proposed_Guideline_2.6
15:42:58 [Detlev]
Patrick: 3 categories: (1) keyboard / sequential access, (2) basic pointer stylus mouse, (3) additional capabilities ("fancy" mouse)
15:43:35 [patrick_h_lauke]
there may be a need to define a "cascade" - use 3), but make sure it works with 2), but for 2), also make sure it works for 1)
15:44:00 [Detlev]
... so there needs to be a fallback cascade where 3 is available in 2, and 2 is available via 1
15:44:42 [Detlev]
... the essence is there but we need to find clear expressions
15:45:08 [Detlev]
Kathy: we need to make sure not to miss important points / use cases
15:45:27 [patrick_h_lauke]
ACTION: patrick to take first stab at generalising https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.#Proposed_Guideline_2.6 in light of his proposal
15:45:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-54 - Take first stab at generalising https://www.w3.org/wai/gl/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/guideline_2.6:_make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.#proposed_guideline_2.6 in light of his proposal [on Patrick Lauke - due 2016-06-23].
15:45:46 [Detlev]
Kathy: Patrick will incorporate comments, revise
15:45:57 [Kathy]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/2016-0509/results
15:46:26 [Detlev]
Kathy: Members of WCA GWG have given feedback to touch & pointer (in survey)
15:46:39 [Detlev]
..some editorial
15:47:52 [Detlev]
Kathy: Question was if focus on touch workable with AT should be extended
15:48:27 [Detlev]
Kathy: will put together survey to get feedback from those not on the call
15:48:57 [Detlev]
Kathy: Lets talk about 2.5.4
15:49:11 [Kathy]
https://patrickhlauke.github.io/getting-touchy-presentation/#134
15:49:12 [patrick_h_lauke]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2016Jun/0021.html
15:50:36 [Detlev]
Patrick: question re. 2.5.4 with two separate sizes for activation area, one for touch one for (mouse) pointer
15:51:03 [Detlev]
--Alastair questioned whether this can be told apart by UA
15:51:59 [Detlev]
...there are mechanisms to detect whetehr user is using touch or fine pointer as input - this might come late until input happens - wouldnot want to change the interface on the fly
15:52:56 [Detlev]
... but there are w<ay for users to select what interface they want - default may be touch-friendly with switch to optimise for fine pointer
15:53:09 [Detlev]
... including automatic detection and prompt
15:54:25 [Detlev]
...other situations are a known scenario (POS systems) or situations where its known that no touch input is feasible
15:55:01 [Detlev]
Kathy: For questions in survey we need to formulate responses
15:55:15 [jeanne]
+1 to 2 sizes.
15:55:23 [Detlev]
Kathy: anyone disagrees with having these two toch sizes?
15:56:04 [Detlev]
Alan: generally agrees - observations reg. lower case x for closing dialogs - big enough?
15:57:05 [Detlev]
Patrick: authors can ensure active area is large enough or site is appropriate, ar wrap checkboxes in labels that are large enough or build fake ones
15:57:43 [Detlev]
... many browsers do better these days but we need to call upon UA makers to get their act together
15:58:44 [Detlev]
Kathy: Next week's call will look at update of device manipulation, check holiday absences
16:03:52 [Kim]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
16:04:42 [patrick_h_lauke]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
16:04:50 [patrick_h_lauke]
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16:27:27 [Kim]
Present+ Detlev
16:28:29 [Kim]
Present+ Jatin, Jeanne
16:28:47 [Kim]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:28:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
16:30:07 [Kim]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:30:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
16:36:32 [Kim]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:36:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
16:46:58 [Kim]
rrsagent, bye
16:46:58 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-mobile-a11y-actions.rdf :
16:46:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: patrick to try and come up with some non-pointer/pointer/fancy touch definition [1]
16:46:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-mobile-a11y-irc#T15-33-39
16:46:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: patrick to take first stab at generalising https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.#Proposed_Guideline_2.6 in light of his proposal [2]
16:46:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-mobile-a11y-irc#T15-45-27
16:47:07 [Kim]
zakim, bye
16:47:07 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been chriscm, Kathy, patrick_h_lauke, shadi, Kiim, Kim, marcjohlic, Detlev, Jatin, Jeanne
16:47:07 [Zakim]
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