See also: IRC log
<scribe> agenda: this
<joanie> scribe: joanie
JS: These are the two quick reminders.
<clown> action-1409
<trackbot> action-1409 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Monitor progress of bug against atk in gnome's bugzilla requesting new position, level, and other api be added (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453) -- due 2016-04-07 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1409
JD: Given that we are already exposing these properties and that this action item is not blocking any of our work, let's postpone it a couple of weeks so I can focus on the webdriver work.
<clown> action-1533?
<trackbot> action-1533 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Implement Webdriver automated accessibilty testing framework for testing ARIA in ATK/AT-SPI -- due 2016-05-24 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1533
JS: This is your other periodic check-in.
JD: I hope to start on this tomorrow. For real.
<clown> action-1697
<trackbot> action-1697 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose MSAA+IA2 mapping of aria-kbdshortcuts -- due 2016-06-07 -- CLOSED
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1697
JS: This is the change for the
MSAA/IA2 mapping for aria-keyshortcuts.
... We discussed this last week.
... I made the changes.
<clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaKeyshortcuts
JS: I filled out the first
ell.
... And I've already closed the action.
... But just to be sure, any objections?
... This is consistent with the other MSAA property names in
the Core AAM.
... Hearing no objections, I'll keep this closed.
<clown> action-1696
<trackbot> action-1696 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose ATK/AT-SPI mapping of aria-kbdshortcuts -- due 2016-06-07 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1696
JS: This is to update the progress on aria-keyshortcuts for ATK/AT-SPI2.
JD: I sent a couple of emails to
Alex Surkov.
... And CCed Joseph.
<clown> scribenick: clown
JD: Reason I sent to Alex and
Joseph, the IA2 mappings are coming from MSAA.
... There is not parallelism in this case with ATK
... There just in no good ATK mapping.
... We don't have the 'accXXX' property like MSAA does.
... Other place to map in through the Action Interface.
... But, that has the problem that, in this case, there is no
action
... Orca should not be able to invoke the Action in this
case.
... The other possibility is to put in an object
attribute.
... But, I don't care, so I thought I would ask Alex, and
whatever he approves of.
... He thought is was ok to use ATK Action.
... And, that AT shouldn't worry since the action is up to the
author.
... I replied, but that is the problem: Orca can't tell which
Actions are invokable, and which are not.
... If I invoke an aria-keyshortcuts action, then the user
agent needs to simulate a keystroke action for that case.
... It's already exposed as an object attribute. The worst case
scenario is that it is already done.
... Now, that I'm reading the spec close, I'm not sure what it
really means.
<joanie> scribe: joanie
JD: It's correct that ATs should not be able to invoke the Action even by synthesizing keyboard events.
<scribe> scribenick: clown
CS: We are changing all these to a click, since that bubbles.
JD: It's not clear to me that
it's always a click.
... I also don't see that there can only be one. There might be
multiple keystrokes.
... I don't see that it's limited to "activate". It might also
be "focus".
... Use case: I am light sensitive. If the page is bright, it
really bothers me.
... What if there is a keyboard shortcut that inverses the
brightness.
... Invoking the action would be bad.
CS: I'm looking more closesly,
and we actually do not map aria-keyshortcuts to a click.
... I was thinking of something else.
JD: Okay, I think the only thing the AT should do is pass the information to the user.
CS: I think the idea is that this
describes stuff defined in script, and the user agent does not
handle it.
... So, aria-keyshorts is only valid if the author has written
the script.
JD: In that case, then the user agent should not simulate the key strokes.
CS: I have always thought that it's not awful if the user agent handled it, but, right now, that's not how aria-keyshortcuts work.
JD: I need something in the Action inteface that clearly indicates that the AT cannot invoke these kinds of actions.
<joanie> scribe: joanie
JS: For my part, I followed the
discussion you had with Alex.
... I tend to agree with you, Joanie.
... Ideally, I think you need a property like MSAA/IA2
has.
... Everything else feels hacky to me.
... Failing that, a means to identify that the AtkAction is not
invokable makes sense.
... Reading your discussion with Alex, it occurred to me that
if they are just descriptive, could they be exposed as a
description.
CS: There is no string like in UIA and MSAA/IA2?
JS: There's not in ATK/AT-SPI2.
CS: Does Orca read descriptions by default, or does the user have to do something?
JD: Orca presents descriptions automatically.
CS: We don't automatically present it on the assumption that it's long.
JD: The problem is that ATs
should be able to provide the shortcut as the shortcut when
asked for by the user and/or in accordance to user
preferences.
... In order for ATs to be able to do that, ATs need to know
definitively that something is a shortcut.
... For this reason, placing it in a description won't
work.
JS: If we make it a desktop app and Orca sees the action and invokes it, who does the actual work?
JD: The app or toolkit. Usually the toolkit (e.g. Gtk+)
JS: If we use AtkAction with a no-op value, is there a chance that down the line ATK will have an accKeyShortcuts property?
JD: Anything is possible.
JD + JS: (Discussion as to why this may or may not be doable)
JS: What's the next step?
JD: Alex needs to reply to Joanie and then we'll proceed.
JS: Change the due date?
JD: One week please.
... And it's already exposed via object attribute.
JD: Not done yet
<clown> action-1698
<trackbot> action-1698 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose AXAPI mapping of aria-kbdshortcuts -- due 2016-06-07 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1698
JD: I am going to deal with that
when I implement it in WebKitGtk.
... As a result, I need to know what the mappings are.
... Give me another week please.
<clown> action-1706?
<trackbot> action-1706 -- Michael Cooper to Compose a statement regarding the "deprecation" of uia express mappings in the core-aam, referencing the aria 1.0 mapping spec. -- due 2016-06-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1706
JS: I noticed, Cynthia, that you
did something with the deprecation of UIA express and then
assigned it to Michael.
... Did you mean to?
CS: I set it to PENDINGREVIEW but wasn't sure what to do to cause it to be reviewed.
JS: I'll assign it to me.
CS: I doubt this will be controversial.
<clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/Action-1706/core-aam/core-aam.html#intro_aapi
JS: The URL is above.
... (Reads the sentence)
<clown> The WAI-ARIA 1.0 User Agent Implementation Guide included mappings for UIA Express, also known as IAccessibleEx, which was implemented in Microsoft Internet Explorer 8.0 - 11. New implementations are strongly encouraged to use User Interface Automation instead.
JS: I'm okay with that.
... Is there anything else?
CS: Just that.
JS: Thoughts?
BG: Not really.
CS: I didn't expect it to be
controversial.
... I've not heard back from Alex Surkov.
JS: I'll find time to pull it in
or merge it in.
... It currently says you can merge it.
action-1739
<trackbot> action-1739 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Provide all the missing atk/at-spi2 interfaces for joseph -- due 2015-11-17 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1739
JD: I've added a list in the comment of the action.
JS: I'll assign this to myself
and ask you, Joanie, any questions that come up.
... I don't know what will happen since none of this was in the
spec up to this point.
... In other words, in terms of testing.
JD: For what it's worth, I'm
pretty sure what I wrote is what Gecko already does.
... So I don't think I'm in danger of making any user agent
non-compliant.
... Though it might(?) require testing.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.144 of Date: 2015/11/17 08:39:34 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/(link above)// Succeeded: s/parallilsm/parallelism/ Found embedded ScribeOptions: -final *** RESTARTING DUE TO EMBEDDED OPTIONS *** Found Scribe: joanie Inferring ScribeNick: joanie Found ScribeNick: clown Found Scribe: joanie Found ScribeNick: clown Found Scribe: joanie Inferring ScribeNick: joanie ScribeNicks: clown, joanie Default Present: Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa Present: Joanmarie_Diggs Joseph_Scheuhammer Bryan_Garaventa Cynthia_Shelly Regrets: Richard_Schwerdtfeger Found Date: 07 Jun 2016 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2016/06/07-aapi-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]