IRC log of aapi on 2016-06-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:42:40 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/06/07-aapi-irc

18:42:42 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

18:42:42 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #aapi

18:42:44 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be

18:42:44 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

18:42:45 [trackbot]

Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference

18:42:45 [trackbot]

Date: 07 June 2016

18:43:06 [clown]

chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer

18:43:25 [clown]

agenda: this

18:43:31 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-1409 (Joanie) Periodic checkin: Add group position interface to ATK/AT-SPI.

18:43:39 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-1533 (Joanie) Periodic checkin: Webdriver automated accessibilty testing framework for testing ARIA in ATK/AT-SPI.

18:43:47 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-1697 (Joseph/Joanie) MSAA/IA2 mapping of aria-keyshortcuts (final review).

18:43:54 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-1696 (Joanie) ATK/AT-SPI and IA2 mappings of aria-keyshortcuts.

18:44:00 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-1698 (Joanie) AXAPI mapping of aria-keyshortcuts.

18:44:06 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-1706 (Michael/Cynthia) Statement regarding deprecation of UIA Express.

18:44:12 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-2065 (Joseph/Cynthia) Validation of aria-activedescendant.

18:44:20 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-1739 (Joanie) Provide all the missing atk/at-spi2 interfaces.

18:44:26 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-2022 (Joseph/Rich) Followup with Alex about IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK (obsolete?)

18:44:33 [clown]

agenda+ Triage actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23 (start with ACTION-1707)

18:46:45 [clown]

agenda 10 = Triage actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23 start with ACTION-980)

18:46:55 [clown]

agenda+ Triage core-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Core%20AAM&product=ARIA

18:47:03 [clown]

agenda+ Triage accname-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=AccName%20AAM&product=ARIA

18:47:09 [clown]

agenda+ Triage accname actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/26

18:47:17 [clown]

agenda+ be done.

18:52:20 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/07-aapi-minutes.html clown

19:00:16 [joanie]

present+ Joanmarie_Diggs

19:04:29 [clown]

present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer

19:05:31 [bgaraventa1979]

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19:05:49 [bgaraventa1979]

present+ Bryan_Garaventa

19:07:11 [joanie]

scribe: joanie

19:10:29 [joanie]

Zakim, take up item 1

19:10:29 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "ACTION-1409 (Joanie) Periodic checkin: Add group position interface to ATK/AT-SPI." taken up [from clown]

19:10:36 [joanie]

JS: These are the two quick reminders.

19:10:36 [clown]

action-1409

19:10:36 [trackbot]

action-1409 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Monitor progress of bug against atk in gnome's bugzilla requesting new position, level, and other api be added (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453) -- due 2016-04-07 -- OPEN

19:10:36 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1409

19:11:02 [cyns]

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19:12:17 [joanie]

JD: Given that we are already exposing these properties and that this action item is not blocking any of our work, let's postpone it a couple of weeks so I can focus on the webdriver work.

19:12:22 [joanie]

Zakim, next item

19:12:22 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "ACTION-1533 (Joanie) Periodic checkin: Webdriver automated accessibilty testing framework for testing ARIA in ATK/AT-SPI." taken up [from clown]

19:12:29 [clown]

action-1533?

19:12:29 [trackbot]

action-1533 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Implement Webdriver automated accessibilty testing framework for testing ARIA in ATK/AT-SPI -- due 2016-05-24 -- OPEN

19:12:29 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1533

19:12:36 [joanie]

JS: This is your other periodic check-in.

19:13:04 [joanie]

JD: I hope to start on this tomorrow. For real.

19:13:12 [joanie]

Zakim, close this item

19:13:12 [Zakim]

agendum 2 closed

19:13:13 [Zakim]

I see 12 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

19:13:13 [Zakim]

3. ACTION-1697 (Joseph/Joanie) MSAA/IA2 mapping of aria-keyshortcuts (final review). [from clown]

19:13:15 [joanie]

Zakim, next item

19:13:15 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "ACTION-1697 (Joseph/Joanie) MSAA/IA2 mapping of aria-keyshortcuts (final review)." taken up [from clown]

19:13:33 [clown]

action-1697

19:13:33 [trackbot]

action-1697 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose MSAA+IA2 mapping of aria-kbdshortcuts -- due 2016-06-07 -- CLOSED

19:13:34 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1697

19:13:47 [joanie]

JS: This is the change (link above) for the MSAA/IA2 mapping for aria-keyshortcuts.

19:13:57 [joanie]

JS: We discussed this last week.

19:14:02 [joanie]

JS: I made the changes.

19:14:32 [clown]

https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaKeyshortcuts

19:14:38 [joanie]

s/(link above)//

19:15:06 [joanie]

JS: I filled out the first ell.

19:15:11 [joanie]

JS: And I've already closed the action.

19:15:18 [joanie]

JS: But just to be sure, any objections?

19:16:05 [joanie]

JS: This is consistent with the other MSAA property names in the Core AAM.

19:16:23 [joanie]

JS: Hearing no objections, I'll keep this closed.

19:16:28 [joanie]

Zakim, next item

19:16:28 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "ACTION-1696 (Joanie) ATK/AT-SPI and IA2 mappings of aria-keyshortcuts." taken up [from clown]

19:16:38 [clown]

action-1696

19:16:38 [trackbot]

action-1696 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose ATK/AT-SPI mapping of aria-kbdshortcuts -- due 2016-06-07 -- OPEN

19:16:38 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1696

19:17:12 [joanie]

JS: This is to update the progress on aria-keyshortcuts for ATK/AT-SPI2.

19:17:25 [joanie]

JD: I sent a couple of emails to Alex Surkov.

19:17:31 [joanie]

JD: And CCed Joseph.

19:18:01 [clown]

scribenick: clown

19:18:27 [clown]

JD: Reason I sent to Alex and Joseph, the IA2 mappings are coming from MSAA.

19:18:41 [clown]

JD: There is not parallilsm in this case with ATK

19:18:57 [clown]

s/parallilsm/parallelism/

19:19:09 [clown]

JD: There just in no good ATK mapping.

19:19:28 [clown]

JD: We don't have the 'accXXX' property like MSAA does.

19:19:45 [clown]

JD: Other place to map in through the Action Interface.

19:20:01 [clown]

JD: But, that has the problem that, in this case, there is no action

19:20:18 [clown]

JD: Orca should not be able to invoke the Action in this case.

19:20:44 [clown]

JD: The other possibility is to put in an object attribute.

19:21:04 [clown]

JD: But, I don't care, so I thought I would ask Alex, and whatever he approves of.

19:21:19 [clown]

JD: He thought is was ok to use ATK Action.

19:21:34 [clown]

JD: And, that AT shouldn't worry since the action is up to the author.

19:21:58 [clown]

JD: I replied, but that is the problem: Orca can't tell which Actions are invokable, and which are not.

19:22:56 [clown]

JD: If I invoke an aria-keyshortcuts action, then the user agent needs to simulate a keystroke action for that case.

19:24:09 [clown]

JD: It's already exposed as an object attribute. The worst case scenario is that it is already done.

19:24:14 [clown]

JD: Now, that I'm reading the spec close, I'm not sure what it really means.

19:24:45 [joanie]

scribe: joanie

19:24:49 [clown]

JD: It's correct that ATs should not be able to invoke the Action even by synthesizing keyboard events.

19:25:22 [clown]

scribenick: clown

19:25:32 [clown]

CS: We are changing all these to a click, since that bubbles.

19:25:43 [clown]

JD: It's not clear to me that it's always a click.

19:26:22 [clown]

JD: I also don't see that there can only be one. There might be multiple keystrokes.

19:26:41 [clown]

JD: I don't see that it's limited to "activate". It might also be "focus".

19:27:08 [clown]

JD: Use case: I am light sensitive. If the page is bright, it really bothers me.

19:27:43 [clown]

JD: What if there is a keyboard shortcut that inverses the brightness.

19:27:51 [clown]

JD: Invoking the action would be bad.

19:28:11 [clown]

CS: I'm looking more closesly, and we actually do not map aria-keyshortcuts to a click.

19:28:21 [clown]

CS: I was thinking of something else.

19:28:43 [clown]

JD: Okay, I think the only thing the AT should do is pass the information to the user.

19:29:28 [clown]

CS: I think the idea is that this describes stuff defined in script, and the user agent does not handle it.

19:29:49 [clown]

CS: So, aria-keyshorts is only valid if the author has written the script.

19:30:11 [clown]

JD: In that case, then the user agent should not simulate the key strokes.

19:30:53 [clown]

CS: I have always thought that it's not awful if the user agent handled it, but, right now, that's not how aria-keyshortcuts work.

19:32:20 [clown]

JD: I need something in the Action inteface that clearly indicates that the AT cannot invoke these kinds of actions.

19:32:24 [joanie]

scribe: joanie

19:32:38 [joanie]

JS: For my part, I followed the discussion you had with Alex.

19:32:47 [joanie]

JS: I tend to agree with you, Joanie.

19:33:03 [joanie]

JS: Ideally, I think you need a property like MSAA/IA2 has.

19:33:10 [joanie]

JS: Everything else feels hacky to me.

19:33:33 [joanie]

JS: Failing that, a means to identify that the AtkAction is not invokable makes sense.

19:34:20 [joanie]

JS: Reading your discussion with Alex, it occurred to me that if they are just descriptive, could they be exposed as a description.

19:35:00 [joanie]

CS: There is no string like in UIA and MSAA/IA2?

19:35:10 [joanie]

JS: There's not in ATK/AT-SPI2.

19:35:37 [joanie]

CS: Does Orca read descriptions by default, or does the user have to do something?

19:36:09 [joanie]

JD: Orca presents descriptions automatically.

19:36:43 [joanie]

CS: We don't automatically present it on the assumption that it's long.

19:38:15 [joanie]

JD: The problem is that ATs should be able to provide the shortcut as the shortcut when asked for by the user and/or in accordance to user preferences.

19:38:33 [joanie]

JD: In order for ATs to be able to do that, ATs need to know definitively that something is a shortcut.

19:38:44 [joanie]

JD: For this reason, placing it in a description won't work.

19:40:38 [joanie]

JS: If we make it a desktop app and Orca sees the action and invokes it, who does the actual work?

19:40:50 [joanie]

JD: The app or toolkit. Usually the toolkit (e.g. Gtk+)

19:41:13 [joanie]

JS: If we use AtkAction with a no-op value, is there a chance that down the line ATK will have an accKeyShortcuts property?

19:41:25 [joanie]

JD: Anything is possible.

19:44:57 [joanie]

JD + JS: (Discussion as to why this may or may not be doable)

19:51:53 [joanie]

JS: What's the next step?

19:52:29 [joanie]

JD: Alex needs to reply to Joanie and then we'll proceed.

19:52:38 [joanie]

JS: Change the due date?

19:52:42 [joanie]

JD: One week please.

19:53:11 [joanie]

JD: And it's already exposed via object attribute.

19:53:16 [joanie]

Zakim, next item

19:53:16 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "ACTION-1698 (Joanie) AXAPI mapping of aria-keyshortcuts." taken up [from clown]

19:53:25 [joanie]

JD: Not done yet

19:53:35 [clown]

action-1698

19:53:35 [trackbot]

action-1698 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose AXAPI mapping of aria-kbdshortcuts -- due 2016-06-07 -- OPEN

19:53:35 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1698

19:53:39 [joanie]

JD: I am going to deal with that when I implement it in WebKitGtk.

19:53:54 [joanie]

JD: As a result, I need to know what the mappings are.

19:54:00 [joanie]

JD: Give me another week please.

19:54:18 [joanie]

Zakim, next item

19:54:18 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "ACTION-1706 (Michael/Cynthia) Statement regarding deprecation of UIA Express." taken up [from clown]

19:54:29 [clown]

action-1706?

19:54:29 [trackbot]

action-1706 -- Michael Cooper to Compose a statement regarding the "deprecation" of uia express mappings in the core-aam, referencing the aria 1.0 mapping spec. -- due 2016-06-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW

19:54:29 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1706

19:54:43 [joanie]

JS: I noticed, Cynthia, that you did something with the deprecation of UIA express and then assigned it to Michael.

19:54:49 [joanie]

JS: Did you mean to?

19:55:10 [joanie]

CS: I set it to PENDINGREVIEW but wasn't sure what to do to cause it to be reviewed.

19:55:26 [joanie]

JS: I'll assign it to me.

19:55:35 [joanie]

CS: I doubt this will be controversial.

19:56:01 [clown]

https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/Action-1706/core-aam/core-aam.html#intro_aapi

19:56:06 [joanie]

JS: The URL is above.

19:56:22 [joanie]

JS: (Reads the sentence)

19:56:44 [clown]

The WAI-ARIA 1.0 User Agent Implementation Guide included mappings for UIA Express, also known as IAccessibleEx, which was implemented in Microsoft Internet Explorer 8.0 - 11. New implementations are strongly encouraged to use User Interface Automation instead.

19:57:13 [joanie]

JS: I'm okay with that.

19:57:20 [joanie]

JS: Is there anything else?

19:57:23 [joanie]

CS: Just that.

19:57:26 [joanie]

JS: Thoughts?

19:57:30 [joanie]

BG: Not really.

19:57:40 [joanie]

CS: I didn't expect it to be controversial.

19:57:47 [joanie]

CS: I've not heard back from Alex Surkov.

19:57:57 [joanie]

JS: I'll find time to pull it in or merge it in.

19:58:42 [joanie]

JS: It currently says you can merge it.

19:59:00 [joanie]

Zakim, next item

19:59:00 [Zakim]

agendum 7. "ACTION-2065 (Joseph/Cynthia) Validation of aria-activedescendant." taken up [from clown]

19:59:10 [joanie]

agenda?

19:59:21 [joanie]

Zakim, take up item 8

19:59:21 [Zakim]

agendum 8. "ACTION-1739 (Joanie) Provide all the missing atk/at-spi2 interfaces." taken up [from clown]

19:59:27 [joanie]

action-1739

19:59:27 [trackbot]

action-1739 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Provide all the missing atk/at-spi2 interfaces for joseph -- due 2015-11-17 -- OPEN

19:59:27 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1739

20:03:53 [joanie]

JD: I've added a list in the comment of the action.

20:05:46 [joanie]

JS: I'll assign this to myself and ask you, Joanie, any questions that come up.

20:07:21 [joanie]

JS: I don't know what will happen since none of this was in the spec up to this point.

20:07:27 [joanie]

JS: In other words, in terms of testing.

20:07:56 [joanie]

JD: For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure what I wrote is what Gecko already does.

20:08:18 [joanie]

JD: So I don't think I'm in danger of making any user agent non-compliant.

20:08:31 [joanie]

JD: Though it might(?) require testing.

20:13:03 [joanie]

Zakim, part

20:13:03 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa

20:13:03 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #aapi

20:13:11 [joanie]

RRSAgent, make minutes

20:13:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/07-aapi-minutes.html joanie

20:13:37 [joanie]

present+ Cynthia_Shelly

20:13:53 [joanie]

regrets+ Richard_Schwerdtfeger

20:13:58 [joanie]

RRSAgent, make minutes

20:13:58 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/07-aapi-minutes.html joanie

20:15:20 [joanie]

scribeOptions: -final

20:15:27 [joanie]

RRSAgent, stop