<fesch> regrets Leonie

<scribe> scribe: Brian

<fesch> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016May/0011.html

round the table, news, additions for the agenda

<AmeliaBR> https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/svg-aam

AmeliaBR: Gotten to edits on SVG-AAM - not quite finished up
... should have it finished up for discussion next week
... This should clear off a lot of outstanding issues on unclear text

fesch: Hi Rich, anything for news or the agenda?

Rich: W3C allignment with IDPF

Doug: IDPF stands for International Digital Publishing Forum
... IDPF did ePUB. There have been high level talks about a merger partnership, something
... I think it was leaked to the press

AmeliaBR: Tim Burners-Lee made an announcement
... this was announced day before last

Doug: Honestly, don't know the nature of it. From what I understand W3C and IDPF are partnering for the next generation of digital books in the W3C. This has been in a works for the while
... Not sure what this means. No guarantee any format will reach reccomendation
... There's some disagreement amogn staff and browsers about if this is the right path to have one document format
... Browsers say we need to do service workers and on the fly publishing. You don't send a book by email, you send a URL, and they visit the URL and ask a service worker to save a copy offline
... To me, there is a strong use case - Gov't forms, other things - for replacing PDFs. That's my goal
... On the other side, people say PDF is part of the web. Browsers have PDF viewers etc, we don't need something that replaces PDF.
... I want to see a replacement for PDF because PDF documents have a wide range of quality in the markup - for how accessible it is
... as CSS improves we may approach a PDF replacement

Rich: PDF on mobile devices sucks. Pinching. It's better to have a web based, HTML based structure to adjust to screen size

Doug: PDF has its own ecosystem of tools and experts, Infrastructure chains. US government is a huge user of PDF

fesch: how does the DAISY consortium play into this?

richardschwerdtfeger: they cofounded IDPF
... the ARIA structural semantics that's used came form ePUB. Based of constructs in DAISY

fesch: any other comments?

<richardschwerdtfeger> https://etext.illinois.edu

richardschwerdtfeger: I'm going to post a link here to a video of what they're doing with EPUB and education
... it's nice ot have a packaged document so you can port it around. If a browser wanted to, they could. I know they use the Lucifox plugin to read documents
... To your point Doug, I think there's some things we can do that would be easier to work with. It's based on XML whcih browser vendors hate.
... I presented on this at AccessU this week

Amelia's changes for the Graphic Module

<fesch> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/365

Doug: Before we switch topics - I had one more thing.
... The thing I wanted to say is, the implications of this to accessibility are pretty large. I think Rich and I both assumed that you all know this.

Becasue we're working on all this infrastructure for accessible data visualization. All of this work would acrue to a PDF replacement

Doug: If we can get this shift, were people are using "WEBPUB" or whatever the upcoming format would be. That would be a huge shift

fesch: that could be a huge user base for SVG?

Doug: it would. IT would be a whole game changer - many challenges today would be moot. We would not longer have to concentrate on making PDFs accessible. It would take that out of the equation
... Rich, think that's a fair assessment?

richardschwerdtfeger: we talk about html and SVG, but you have MathML in there. It's like night and day
... the reality is, the center of all the accessibility expertiese, the best in the world, is at W3C. It's a big deal.
... not to levrage all the phenomial work these people have done
... If you look at apple, if you look at their ecosystem, they take epub. Android exports epUB, google docs export epub. We can leveraeg the W3C and can pull that into books. It'd be crazy not to

Doug: to your point Fred, there'd be a big user base for SVG. If we get data visualization work in the next year or two. If PDF is replaced by this thing, it adds accsssibility to a wide range of use cases
... this would include government resrouces. Not just things produced by them, but also for them
... Image accessibility, if we do this right we could sweep in a huge changes for civic documents.

<fesch> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/365

<AmeliaBR> Branch as a compiled document: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/graphics-roles/aria/graphics.html

fesch: did people have a chance ot rad amelia's changes?

AmeliaBR: I can go over it quickly. A lot of this is clean up
... little things like, the title was different in the title vs what we referenced in the spec

fesch: I read it. I had but one minor word change. Does that work for folks?

<shepazu_> +1

fesch: Let her go over it, and see if we have all thinks it's good

AmeliaBR: I have a few semantic changes. At the end of the introduction I added some more sentences about what's different between this level one spec
... and the roles we want to have

<AmeliaBR> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/graphics-roles/aria/graphics.html#introduction

AmeliaBR: I specifically mentioned that we need these as default roles
... and that they will be useful with other WAI-ARIA. We will in the future expand to support charts and maps
... the next section that has meaningful new text is the section of User Agent support
... it had a cryptic sentence referring to main WAI-ARIA spec. I added a little bit of explanation
... User Agents don't have to do anything special for ARIA semantics, but they may. Some things they may wish to do
... next section, coevoltion of WAI-ARIA uses
... a lot of stuff that's not relevant ot this spec, widgets. Eventually the host language will adopt that widget natively. It's not relavent to this spec
... section on assistive technologies. This started with a default reference to the other spec. I added some specifics for graphics
... talking about what tpyes of changes assistive technologies may need to make for graphics
... breaking it down to assistive tech either modifying a graphic or breaking a graphic down entirely into text
... declaring a graphics-document may not be relveant if breaking a document down itno text, but may be for others
... take a look if you need any wording changes. Any questions or concerns?

<shepazu> +1

AmeliaBR: anyways, little diversion. As i mentioned at the start, I've got work to clean up the AAM spec
... one thing on that - if it's not too much of a change in topic

fesch: well, before AAM
... anyone have an issue with Amelia merging the banch?

AmeliaBR: want to resolve these changeS?

shepazu: I have a lot of confidence in Amelia. I don't think it's a problem

richardschwerdtfeger: it's fine

RESOLUTION: Let Amelia merge her branch into the graphics module

fesch: you had something about AAM you want to talk about AmeliaBR ?

AmeliaBR: one of the changes to AAM was changing the mappings to the new roles. Need to make corresponding changes to SVG2 for that
... I was looking at the SVG2 section for that. I was wondering if changing the mapping table from SVG2 to something that's a little more author focused

<AmeliaBR> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#implicit-aria-semantics

AmeliaBR: right now it's a long table - a lot of which is repetitive
... 2 things, either change it so it's a direct copy of the SVG-AAM, other option is replcae it with a more readable prose version that's easier for authors to understand.

richardschwerdtfeger: I don't understand what's not readable for authors

AmeliaBR: it's hard to look at it at a glance a figure out the significance of all this

richardschwerdtfeger: I'm not following. What do you want to put in here?

AmeliaBR: group things by categories. Say, "Shapes", shapes have a default role of presentation. except in these case when they have a role of graphics-symbol
... break it down that way. Explain why they have a default and explain when and why users can change

richardschwerdtfeger: this is designed after HTMls - this would make something that looks different

AmeliaBR: I'll write up an example of what I'm thinking. Maybe also update this to match AAM. The other one, rewriting it the way I'm picturing it

richardschwerdtfeger: I got what you want to do. All I'm saying is it's inconsistent with what HTML is doing

fesch: HMTL has a mapping table not in the AAM?

richardschwerdtfeger: they have all the elements in a list with their natvie host semantics. Uou want to basically
... take a whole bunch of these that are ignored and put them in one group?

AmeliaBR: exactly. So you can find the content and not get lost in element names

richardschwerdtfeger: I can see the value in both, but they're not done that way in HTML. Not saying no, just asking what people think

fesch: what AmeliaBR is proposing sounds like how roles are mapped. I see the value of staying with HTML, but I see the value of finding your guy in the section that tells you what you can or can't do

AmeliaBR: I'll try to come up with two branches, one to match the AAM and one sort of rewritten

fesch: are the concepts known within SVG the way you want to break it out? Filters meshparts, say? Concepts already in SVG to make groups?

AmeliaBR: for the most part they are.
... I've added a definition of Never Rendered Elements for things that are never mapped to anything. Or, areas wehre we need new definitions

richardschwerdtfeger: what'll make it a little harder. the SVG group has added or removed elements
... it's helpful for a 1:1 comparison. It'll make it harder to keep track of that
... I'd love to see this thing filtered or sorted

AmeliaBR: one benefit of grouping by categories is that it's clearer is a new SVG spec adds something to a category
... If a new spec adds a new star element, the same rules for shapes apply. So long as it's clear we have extensbile rules for how it should be treated with ARIA
... I'll try and get something concrete for next week. Hopefully something out today or tomorrow

fesch: any other comments on this topic?

Author Guidance

<fesch> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016May/0014.html

<shepazu> http://w3c.github.io/svgwg/specs/svg-authoring/

fesch: it came out kind of htis morning. IF people hadn't had a chance to look at let's go over the scope of the document

shepazu: I tried to make time to do this well in advance so that you would have something to review. No expectations you had time to review this in detail.
... Structurally, I think you'll see this is definitely an SVG uathoring guidlines. Not specific to Accessibility. Where there is a topic that is important to accessibility
... first off, I lay out all the reasons auhtors should do something they should do not including accessibility, but also use
... for search engines, mobile, etc. Animation is another. You want to naimate things in the correct way.
... there are lots of topics that don't have anything to do with accessibility, that's on purpose.
... you will not I have this structure - and accessibility tip - where I call out a specific reason to do somethign for accessibility reasons
... especially in text and title sections. Also, navigation, I talk a lot about accessibility
... not sure what's going on with ToC and headers, styling seems to be weird
... there's several topics. I've mostly been working on general things you should do for all types. Next this is specific types, Icons, visualizations
... I'm using respec to write the spec. I'm using the native features in respec. Will have good and bad examples of things
... I'm trying to tackle the major accessibility issues, for a variety of uses

<fesch> ?

shepazu: any comments?
... questions?

fesch: I started reading this. I sort of understand where you're going with this. I had one question on the first sentence
... it mentions it's an abastract language, what makes it abstract?

shepazu: there are lots of graphics specs that are area specific. Flowcharts is a specific language. Something for schmeatics or building layouts are specific languages
... SVG is semeantics neutral, it doesn't have specific features like htat

AmeliaBR: I think "general" sounds better than abstract

shepazu: form my description of the approach, does this align with expectations?
... hearing nothing I assume
... I did a perfect job.

AmeliaBR: I like your tone and your approach - building examples with not good, slightly better, best examples.

shepazu: I don't anticipate going into that particular detail in all examples
... if there's a bad way I plan on showing the bad way, and going into more details. And labelling the examples as good and bad and labeling them that way

AmeliaBR: we may want a class to specifically adress this is a BAD example

fesch: it looks like a quick start guide. You get a little bit of everything and see how you do everything

shepazu: it's designed to be a recipe book. For people who create tools for people who author SVG
... Adobe, for their SVG exports.
... I know fesch this isn't what you were expecting. You forwarded me something along the ARIA lines

fesch: I like how you weave accessibility into the normal stuff. So, they don't have to read something separate. It comes with everything else

shepazu: That's the appraoch richardschwerdtfeger and I, and AmeliaBR and chaals have all talked about. This is how we'll get them

fesch: how will we bring up data visualizations without being very verbose?

shepazu: I expect visualizations will be a large section of this
... we don't know all the details yet. I'll introduce the principles of visualization, much like ARIA. Mention principles but don't go into everything
... include the individual datum so that it can be logically consumed. Not just for screen readers, but for anything
... as we're moving to voice enabled systems, Siri, search tools. Lots of tools want to consume data and then present it to the use
... we need data in a way to present to users. Voice systems, that's the angle I'm going to come at it there. Here's why, here's how you do it, we're going to do another document
... I'll already have explained ARIA. So that you can label things "this is the legend", "this is the x axis", so they know you can expose this to a machine. Makes sense?
... I don't think there's much more to say until you read it
... by then, I may have added a bunch more stuff
... I'm not available next week, I'll be in Berlin. I'll be in the week after
... can we talk about it two weeks in?

AmeliaBR: we will have our questions for you on the 25th

shepazu: Pull requests are welcome! Send emails, whatever. Though I am interested in discussing over voice

fesch: anyone have anything else?

richardschwerdtfeger: I will not be available next week

shepazu: why don't we not have a meeting next week?

fesch: I think we can do that
... Anything else?

richardschwerdtfeger: AmeliaBR I've been tied up at work, but I've started those changes. Presentational aspects of elements. I am working on that

AmeliaBR: I'll be on the lookout for that and will update crosslinks on AAM

<richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Fred

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Found Scribe: Brian
Inferring ScribeNick: Brian
Present: AmeliaBR fesch Brian shepazu
Regrets: Leonie_Watson
Found Date: 11 May 2016
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2016/05/11-svg-a11y-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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