18:01:48 RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y 18:01:48 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/05/11-svg-a11y-irc 18:01:50 RRSAgent, make logs ab 18:01:50 Zakim has joined #svg-a11y 18:01:52 Zakim, this will be 18:01:52 I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 18:01:53 Meeting: SVG Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 18:01:53 Date: 11 May 2016 18:02:28 Brian has joined #svg-a11y 18:02:55 present+ AmeliaBR, fesch, Brian, shepazu 18:02:59 regrets Leonie 18:03:10 chair: fesch 18:04:32 scribe: Brian 18:04:35 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016May/0011.html 18:04:55 Topic: round the table, news, additions for the agenda 18:05:18 https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/svg-aam 18:05:19 AmeliaBR: Gotten to edits on SVG-AAM - not quite finished up 18:05:31 AmeliaBR: should have it finished up for discussion next week 18:05:41 AmeliaBR: This should clear off a lot of outstanding issues on unclear text 18:06:00 fesch: Hi Rich, anything for news or the agenda? 18:06:26 Rich: W3C allignment with IDPF 18:06:48 Doug: IDPF stands for International Digital Publishing Forum 18:07:10 Doug: IDPF did ePUB. There have been high level talks about a merger partnership, something 18:07:18 Doug: I think it was leaked to the press 18:07:26 AmeliaBR: Tim Burners-Lee made an announcement 18:07:38 AmeliaBR: this was announced day before last 18:08:24 Doug: Honestly, don't know the nature of it. From what I understand W3C and IDPF are partnering for the next generation of digital books in the W3C. This has been in a works for the while 18:08:50 Doug: Not sure what this means. No guarantee any format will reach reccomendation 18:10:44 Doug: There's some disagreement amogn staff and browsers about if this is the right path to have one document format 18:11:22 Doug: Browsers say we nee to do service workers and on the fly publishing. You don't send a book by email, you send a URL, and they visit the URL and ask a service worker to save a copy offline 18:11:52 Doug: To me, there is a strong use case - Gov't forms, other things - for replacing PDFs. That's my goal 18:12:16 Doug: On the other side, people say PDF is part of the web. Browsers have PDF viewers etc, we don't need something that replaces PDF. 18:12:38 s/nee to/need to/ 18:12:41 Doug: I want to see a replacement for PDF because PDF documents have a wide range of quality in the markup - for how accessible it is 18:12:50 Doug: as CSS improves we may approach a PDF replacement 18:13:17 Rich: PDF on mobile devices sucks. Pinching. It's better ot have a web based, HTML based structure to adjsut to screen size 18:14:06 s/ot have/to have/ 18:14:19 Doug: PDF has its own ecosystem of tools and experts, Infrastructure chains. US government is a huge user of PDF 18:14:28 s/adjsut/adjust/ 18:14:36 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg-a11y 18:14:40 fesch: how does the DAISY consortium play into this? 18:14:57 richardschwerdtfeger: they cofounded IDPF 18:15:18 richardschwerdtfeger: the ARIA structural semantics that's used came form ePUB. Based of constructs in DAISY 18:15:23 fesch: any other comments? 18:15:25 https://etext.illinois.edu 18:15:41 richardschwerdtfeger: I'm going to post a link here to a video of what they're doing with EPUB and education 18:16:18 richardschwerdtfeger: it's nice ot have a packaged document so you can port it around. If a browser wanted to, they could. I know they use the Lucifox plugin to read documents 18:16:45 richardschwerdtfeger: To your point Doug, I think there's some things we can do that would be easier to work with. It's based on XML whcih browser vendors hate. 18:16:53 richardschwerdtfeger: I presented on this at AccessU this week 18:16:57 Topic: Amelia's changes for the Graphic Module 18:17:02 q+ 18:17:20 https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/365 18:17:42 Doug: Before we switch topics - I had one more thing. 18:18:00 ack shep 18:18:08 Doug: The thing I wanted to say is, the implications of this to accessibility are pretty large. I think Rich and I both assumed that you all know this. 18:18:27 Becasue we're working on all this infrastructure for accessible data visualization. All of this work would acrue to a PDF replacement 18:18:50 Doug: If we can get this shift, were people are using "WEBPUB" or whatever the upcoming format would be. That would be a huge shift 18:18:58 fesch: that could be a huge user base for SVG? 18:19:36 Doug: it would. IT would be a whole game changer - many challenges today would be moot. We would not longer have to concentrate on making PDFs accessible. It would take that out of the equation 18:19:48 Doug: Rich, think that's a fair assessment? 18:20:02 richardschwerdtfeger: we talk about html and SVG, but you have MathML in there. It's like night and day 18:20:22 richardschwerdtfeger: the reality is, the center of all the accessibility expertiese, the best in the world, is at W3C. It's a big deal. 18:20:43 richardschwerdtfeger: not to levrage all the phenomial work these people have done 18:21:15 richardschwerdtfeger: If you look at apple, if you look at their ecosystem, they take epub. Android exports epUB, google docs export epub. We can leveraeg the W3C and can pull that into books. It'd be crazy not to 18:21:54 Doug: to your point Fred, there'd be a big user base for SVG. If we get data visualization work in the next year or two. If PDF is replaced by this thing, it adds accsssibility to a wide range of use cases 18:22:09 Doug: this would include government resrouces. Not just things produced by them, but also for them 18:22:30 Doug: Image accessibility, if we do this right we could sweep in a huge changes for civic documents. 18:22:41 Topic: Amelia's changes for the Graphic Module 18:22:51 https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/365 18:22:56 Branch as a compiled document: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/graphics-roles/aria/graphics.html 18:23:08 fesch: did people have a chance ot rad amelia's changes? 18:23:18 AmeliaBR: I can go over it quickly. A lot of this is clean up 18:23:32 AmeliaBR: little things like, the title was different in the title vs what we referenced in the spec 18:23:45 fesch: I read it. I had but one minor word change. Does that work for folks? 18:23:52 +1 18:24:07 fesch: Let her go over it, and see if we have all thinks it's good 18:24:35 AmeliaBR: I have a few semantic changes. At the end of the introduction I added some more sentences about what's different between this level one spec 18:24:46 AmeliaBR: and the roles we want to have 18:25:01 http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/graphics-roles/aria/graphics.html#introduction 18:25:12 AmeliaBR: I specifically mentioned that we need these as default roles 18:25:32 AmeliaBR: and that they will be useful with other WAI-ARIA. We will in the future expand to support charts and maps 18:25:49 AmeliaBR: the next section that has meaningful new text is the section of User Agent support 18:26:04 AmeliaBR: it had a cryptic sentence referring to main WAI-ARIA spec. I added a little bit of explanation 18:26:26 AmeliaBR: User Agents don't have to do anything special for ARIA semantics, but they may. Some things they may wish to do 18:26:39 AmeliaBR: next section, coevoltion of WAI-ARIA uses 18:27:15 AmeliaBR: a lot of stuff that's not relevant ot this spec, widgets. Eventually the host language will adopt that widget natively. It's not relavent to this spec 18:27:33 AmeliaBR: section on assistive technologies. This started with a default reference to the other spec. I added some specifics for graphics 18:27:49 AmeliaBR: talking about what tpyes of changes assistive technologies may need to make for graphics 18:28:15 AmeliaBR: breaking it down to assistive tech either modifying a graphic or breaking a graphic down entirely into text 18:28:50 AmeliaBR: declaring a graphics-document may not be relveant if breaking a document down itno text, but may be for others 18:29:06 AmeliaBR: take a look if you need any wording changes. Any questions or concerns? 18:29:09 q? 18:29:18 +1 18:29:58 AmeliaBR: anyways, little diversion. As i mentioned at the start, I've got work to clean up the AAM spec 18:30:09 AmeliaBR: one thing on that - if it's not too much of a change in topic 18:30:16 fesch: well, before AAM 18:30:28 fesch: anyone have an issue with Amelia merging the banch? 18:30:35 AmeliaBR: want to resolve these changeS? 18:30:49 shepazu: I have a lot of confidence. I don't think it's a problem 18:30:52 richardschwerdtfeger: it's fine 18:31:06 s/confidence/confidence in Amelia/ 18:31:11 RESOLUTION: Let Amelia merge her branch into the graphics module 18:31:37 fesch: you had something about AAM you want to talk about AmeliaBR ? 18:31:54 AmeliaBR: one of the changes to AAM was changing the mappings to the new roles. Need to make corresponding changes to SVG2 for that 18:32:16 AmeliaBR: I was looking at the SVG2 section for that. I was wondering if changing the mapping table from SVG2 to something that's a little more author focused 18:32:26 https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#implicit-aria-semantics 18:32:41 AmeliaBR: right now it's a long table - a lot of which is repetitive 18:33:13 AmeliaBR: 2 things, either change it so it's a direct copy of the SVG-AAM, other option is replcae it with a more readable prose version that's easier for authors to understand. 18:33:22 richardschwerdtfeger: I don't understand what's not readable for authors 18:33:37 AmeliaBR: it's hard to look at it at a glance a figure out the significance of all this 18:33:46 richardschwerdtfeger: I'm not following. What do you want to put in here? 18:34:20 AmeliaBR: group things by categories. Say, "Shapes", shapes have a default role of presentation. except in these case when they have a role of graphics-symbol 18:34:38 AmeliaBR: break it down that way. Explain why they have a default and explain when and why users can change 18:34:52 richardschwerdtfeger: this is designed after HTMls - this would make something that looks different 18:35:15 AmeliaBR: I'll write up an example of what I'm thinking. Maybe also update this to match AAM. The other one, rewriting it the way I'm picturing it 18:35:32 richardschwerdtfeger: I got what you want to do. All I'm saying is it's inconsistent with what HTML is doing 18:35:41 fesch: HMTL has a mapping table not in the AAM? 18:36:03 richardschwerdtfeger: they have all the elements in a list with their natvie host semantics. Uou want to basically 18:36:18 richardschwerdtfeger: take a whole bunch of these that are ignored and put them in one group? 18:36:30 AmeliaBR: exactly. So you can find the content and not get lost in element names 18:36:55 richardschwerdtfeger: I can see the value in both, but they're not done that way in HTML. Not saying no, just asking what people think 18:37:32 fesch: what AmeliaBR is proposing sounds like how roles are mapped. I see the value of staying with HTML, but I see the value of finding your guy in the section that tells you what you can or can't do 18:37:48 AmeliaBR: I'll try to come up with two branches, one to match the AAM and one sort of rewritten 18:38:15 fesch: are the concepts known within SVG the way you want to break it out? Filters meshparts, say? Concepts already in SVG to make groups? 18:38:19 AmeliaBR: for the most part they are. 18:38:44 AmeliaBR: I've added a definition of Never Rendered Elements for things that are never mapped to anything. Or, areas wehre we need new definitions 18:38:56 richardschwerdtfeger: what'll make it a little harder. the SVG group has added or removed elements 18:39:06 richardschwerdtfeger: it's helpful for a 1:1 comparison. It'll make it harder to keep track of that 18:39:17 richardschwerdtfeger: I'd love to see this thing filtered or sorted 18:39:34 AmeliaBR: one benefit of grouping by categories is that it's clearer is a new SVG spec adds something to a category 18:40:01 AmeliaBR: If a new spec adds a new star element, the same rules for shapes apply. So long as it's clear we have extensbile rules for how it should be treated with ARIA 18:40:09 q? 18:40:20 AmeliaBR: I'll try and get something concrete for next week. Hopefully something out today or tomorrow 18:40:27 fesch: any other comments on this topic? 18:40:37 TOPIC: Author Guidance 18:40:55 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016May/0014.html 18:41:03 http://w3c.github.io/svgwg/specs/svg-authoring/ 18:41:27 fesch: it came out kind of htis morning. IF people hadn't had a chance to look at let's go over the scope of the document 18:41:57 shepazu: I tried to make time to do this well in advance so that you would have something to review. No expectations you had time to review this in detail. 18:42:28 shepazu: Structurally, I think you'll see this is definitely an SVG uathoring guidlines. Not specific to Accessibility. Where there is a topic that is important to accessibility 18:43:07 shepazu: first off, I lay out all the reasons auhtors should do something they should do not including accessibility, but also use 18:43:30 shepazu: for search engines, mobile, etc. Animation is another. You want to naimate things in the correct way. 18:43:42 shepazu: there are lots of topics that don't have anything to do with accessibility, that's on purpose. 18:44:01 shepazu: you will not I have this structure - and accessibility tip - where I call out a specific reason to do somethign for accessibility reasons 18:44:15 shepazu: especially in text and title sections. Also, navigation, I talk a lot about accessibility 18:44:28 shepazu: not sure what's going on with ToC and headers, styling seems to be weird 18:44:58 shepazu: there's several topics. I've mostly been working on general things you should do for all types. Next this is specific types, Icons, visualizations 18:45:50 shepazu: I'm using respec to write the spec. I'm using the native features in respec. Will have good and bad examples of things 18:46:01 shepazu: I'm trying to tackle the major accessibility issues, for a variety of uses 18:46:06 ? 18:46:10 q? 18:46:15 shepazu: any comments? 18:46:23 shepazu: questions? 18:46:47 fesch: I started reading this. I sort of understand where you're going with this. I had one question on the first sentence 18:47:01 fesch: it mentions it's an abastract language, what makes it abstract? 18:47:31 shepazu: there are lots of graphics specs that are area specific. Flowcharts is a specific language. Something for schmeatics or building layouts are specific languages 18:47:44 shepazu: SVG is semeantics neutral, it doesn't have specific features like htat 18:48:01 AmeliaBR: I think "general" sounds better than abstract 18:48:26 shepazu: form my description of the approach, does this align with expectations? 18:48:38 shepazu: hearing nothing I assume 18:48:46 shepazu: I did a perfect job. 18:49:04 AmeliaBR: I like your tone and your approach - building examples with not good, slightly better, best examples. 18:49:18 shepazu: I don't anticipate going into that particular detail in all examples 18:49:41 shepazu: if there's a bad way I plan on showing the bad way, and going into more details. And labelling the examples as good and bad and labeling them that way 18:49:56 AmeliaBR: we may want a class to specifically adress this is a BAD example 18:50:15 fesch: it looks like a quick start guide. You get a little bit of everything and see how you do everything 18:50:31 shepazu: it's designed to be a recipe book. For people who create tools for people who author SVG 18:50:42 shepazu: Adobe, for their SVG exports. 18:50:58 shepazu: I know fesch this isn't what you were expecting. You forwarded me something along the ARIA lines 18:51:16 fesch: I like how you weave accessibility into the normal stuff. So, they don't have to read something separate. It comes with everything else 18:51:40 shepazu: That's the appraoch richardschwerdtfeger and I, and AmeliaBR and chaals have all talked about. This is how we'll get them 18:51:54 fesch: how will we bring up data visualizations without being very verbose? 18:52:04 shepazu: I expect visualizations will be a large section of this 18:52:35 shepazu: we don't know all the details yet. I'll introduce the principles of visualization, much like ARIA. Mention principles but don't go into everything 18:52:56 shepazu: include the individual datum so that it can be logically consumed. Not just for screen readers, but for anything 18:53:18 shepazu: as we're moving to voice enabled systems, Siri, search tools. Lots of tools want to consume data and then present it to the use 18:54:02 shepazu: we need data in a way to present to users. Voice systems, that's the angle I'm going to come at it there. Here's why, here's how you do it, we're going to do another document 18:54:37 shepazu: I'll already have explained ARIA. So that you can label things "this is the legend", "this is the x axis", so they know you can expose this to a machine. Makes sense? 18:54:46 shepazu: I don't think there's much more to say until you read it 18:54:55 shepazu: by then, I may have added a bunch more stuff 18:55:11 shepazu: I'm not available next week, I'll be in Berlin. I'll be in the week after 18:55:18 shepazu: can we talk about it two weeks in? 18:55:30 AmeliaBR: we will have our questions for you on the 25th 18:55:46 shepazu: Pull requests are welcome! Send emails, whatever. Though I am interested in discussing over voice 18:55:53 fesch: anyone have anything else? 18:56:02 richardschwerdtfeger: I will not be available next week 18:56:10 shepazu: why don't we not have a meeting next week? 18:56:18 fesch: I think we can do that 18:56:21 fesch: Anything else? 18:56:42 richardschwerdtfeger: AmeliaBR I've been tied up at work, but I've started those changes. Presentational aspects of elements. I am working on that 18:57:06 AmeliaBR: I'll be on the lookout for that and will update crosslinks on AAM 18:57:28 RRSAgent, make logs public 18:57:36 RRSAgent, make log public 18:57:38 chair: Fred 18:57:54 RRSAgent, make minutes 18:57:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/11-svg-a11y-minutes.html AmeliaBR 18:58:43 regrets+ Leonie_Watson 18:58:47 RRSAgent, make minutes 18:58:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/11-svg-a11y-minutes.html AmeliaBR 19:00:52 fesch has left #svg-a11y 19:00:53 That look seems functional, can you send an email to the list, Brian? 19:01:05 Yup, no problem Amelia 19:01:55 Thanks again! 19:59:15 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg-a11y 21:02:29 Zakim has left #svg-a11y 22:54:37 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg-a11y