Introductions

Caleb: Work with James at Visa in Austin TX. I lead UX Engineering teams, building web UX across the enterprise. Client side technologies, mostly JS, CSS, HTML but increasingly exploring and integrating new technologies.
... deep background in accessibility implementation and so do accessibility consulting for product teams.
... passion for building high quality software with good UI and accessible to all.

All: round of intros from EO participants and staff

Web Accessibility Perspectives

Shadi: Thanks to all who commented in GitHub and the survey. Lots of useful comments, coming close to breaking the record - nearly 200 since the start of this resource. Today we will look more closely at the the videos themselves.

Video length (timing)

... previous comments were on the surrounding text. Now will focus in on the videos themselves. For each video, we have shot much more footage and while we can't reshoot, we can re-edit.
... many comments said more time was needed saying that it was not clear, needed more time to develop idea, and/or conflicts between narrative and visuals. This is becoming even more clear with the audio described versions.
... there are more comfortable durations and more time to understand the point of the video. What we said was to go fast paced, engaging, 30 to 40 seconds. After consideration, said could expand to about a minute. But now we have seen that we may need even more time.

<shadi> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B92B0V8XvplMS3FlM1hmaUFDelk/view

Shadi: please look at audio described version. Pauses will be shorter when complete, but this will give an idea of what a slightly expanded veiwing would be like.

Howard: Was this an extended version?

Shadi: Yes, there were additional spaces added to accomodate the AD.

Susan: I am all for adding these few seconds to clarify the message.

<yatil> [+1 for doing what is needed. I think around 1m is fine, probably not longer than 1:30 - For Editor's Discretion]

Howard: I preferred the pace of the original but this one seems fine.

Joy: I agree, it is not enough of a time investment difference to make people turn away. The clarity is worth it.

Brent: Having the advantage of looking at more of the AD versions as part of the Task Force, I can also say that the additional footage sometimes added to the audio described versions also help show people's reactions to the wrong/right status of what they are looking at. A good example is the customized font video.

<Susan> +1

<Laura> +1

<Susan> +1 to yatil

<Howard> +1 to not > 1.30

<Caleb> +1

Shadi: So I am hearing that people are happy to go to a bit longer for the sake of clarity.
... any other perspectives from everyone?

RESOLUTION: EOWG approves the need to extend video length as needed for clarity and meaning.

<shawn> +lots https://github.com/w3c/wai-showcase-examples/issues/141

Joy: I commend you for making this more clear. It is common for people who work in accessibility to think these things are self apparent when actually it is harder to understand than we often think.

Video presentation order

<shadi> https://github.com/w3c/wai-showcase-examples/issues/160

Shadi: The current order in which the videos are presented is somewhat arbitrary. We wanted to start with one that mapped directly to WCAG and was easy to understand the issue. Then we mixed in ones that did not map so directly and tried to blend them in together in the presentation order for variation.
... question for group is that there needs to be a more defined order?
... map to the 4 principles for example?

Adina: If I was looking at a group of videos unless there is a flow such as a lesson plan or a necessary order for meaning, I would just jump between them in any case. The presentation order would not mean anything to me.

Susan: I generally agree with Adina but I do wonder if the current order will confuse people who may think "This doesn't make sense." If our audience is people who don't know much about this, they may think it is organized by importance. If so it will seem odd, but not a strong objection.

Sharron: I don't think anyone will watch them in order, more likely to be linked to a particular one and bounce around from there.

<Susan> agree with Sharron. It was a Q on the survey so I inject my nitpickiness. LIkely wouldn't have raised it otherwise. :)

<Laura> +1 to Sharron's comments

<Adina> Can we create a YouTube video group too? That will spur continuing viewing.

<Caleb> I like the YouTube idea

<Susan> +100 to Caleb

Shadi: So if someone sends me a link to the one video, at the end it says go to WAI persepctives where you have the full list - would that be confusing?

<Susan> YouTube is a huge platform for sharing content these days. We absolutely shouldn't shun it if we want to share our message

Eric: If we think the order doesn't matter, could go alphabetically.

<shawn> -1 for alphabetically

<Adina> (Do a youtube video group for regular and another group for D))

Shadi: To the side conversation about YouTube, we are looking at that , it is part of the plan for promotion.

<shawn> +1 for starting with an easy-to-consume video

Brent: I agree that the order is trivial but at least starting with one of the more simple concepts, easy to understand and clearly mapped to WCAG.

<Sharron> +1 to starting with simple one

<yatil> +1 feature a video

<Laura> +1

Caleb: If you thinking of deep linking, you could put each on its own page.

<Susan> hmm...not really agreeing with you there Caleb

Shadi: There will still be a master page, a place where each video sends folks for more information.

Caleb: But may be good to add the additional subpages as well.

Shadi: OK that is another issue, let's talk about order on the landing page, the master page. any other thoughts about that

Eric: I think we could have one "featured video" at the top and the rest in alpha order. Or thumbnails of all of them at the top ... for discoverability it is easy with alpha order. But no strong feelings about the order.

Shadi: Question might come up - what is the point of the order? However, I am not sure that alpha order will be clear. It will not be apparent at the start. The best we can do is to put the videos that have a very clear message near the top so that people understand, get engaged, feel confident, want to see more.

Eric: The TOC could be alpha order regardless of how it is ordered on the page.

Shadi: So you are saying the TOC would be in a different order than the order on the page?

Eric: Yes thinking of the TOC as separate from page order might be confusing.

Shadi: Could add numbers?

Eric: Seems arbitrary.

Shadi: Is this a big enugh issue - we know someone will ask that - is it a show stopper?

Sharron: Not at all a showstopper

<shawn> happy to leave for TF/editor discretion!

<Sharron> +1 to editor's discretion

<Brent> Can you just add a comment in the overview that says "Videos are in no particular order."

<Sharron> Yes, very good idea, +1 to Brent

<Howard> +1 to editor's discretion

<yatil> +1

<Brent> +1 to editor discretion

<Caleb> +1

<Laura> +1

RESOLUTION: EOWG has considered the presentation order of the videos and will leave final decision about that to TF's discretion.

Video Titles

<shadi> https://github.com/w3c/wai-showcase-examples/issues/149

Shadi: Title changes to some of the videos. Large select areas had some opposition. We spent a lot of time on this already.

<Howard> what about "Large buttons, links & controls"?

<shawn> Large Click Targets ?

<yatil> Large Interfaces?

<Laura> What about "hit"

Sharron: Is this the kind of wordsmithing back and forth we said we would not do in meetings as part of our new process?

<Susan> +1 to Sharron

<Adina> My suggestion is to leave the title as is.

<shawn> +1 for Large Click Targets

<Caleb> +1 Large Click Target

Howard: I guess something more clear - large buttons and controls, large links and buttons. The more clear the better. "Targets" still seems jargony.

<Adina> I like that

<Brent> +1

<Adina> "large links, buttons, and controls"

<Caleb> Hit/Touch Target

Shadi: Any objection to Large links, buttons and controls?

<Sharron> nope

<Susan> no objection

<yatil> +1 to use links, buttons, controls - it is broad enough and nicely goes from specific to general

<Adina> +1

<Caleb> +1

<shawn> SLH: will that cover it? If so, I'm OK with letting TF go with that if they think it will work

<Laura> +1

RESOLUTION: EOWG agrees to change title to Large buttons, links, and controls (order at Editor's discretion)

<Susan> so much +1 to Sharron's reminder about process we agreed to, could we move this to the survey?.

Shadi: Understood in general but we are out of time for another cycle of surveys - need to get decisions to the production company this week.

Brent: Notifications and feedback - the issue was to change to instructions and feedback? Does the group agree or oppose that idea?

<Sharron> +1 to instructions, seems OK to me, not strong but indifferent.

<Susan> +1 to instructions

<Brent> fine with instructions

<Howard> I prefer notifications but will go with consensus

Joy: Instructions is more inclusive, it sounds better

Brent: any objections to that change?

Shadi: Might blow the entire metaphor of the cuckoo clock, however.

Sharron: Good point, had not considered that.

Shawn: Notifications is somthing different than instruction -- like a pop-up. They are not interchangable. terms

<Adina> "Notifications" makes more sense in that context...

Brent: Since we have two strong objections to the change, I recommend leaving it, noting that we considered Denis' comment.

Shadi: What about instructions and notifications?

<Adina> I like "feedback" rather than instructions

<Howard> Would stick with what we have

<yatil> +1 to keep it like it is

<Adina> Instructions are what you read before you do anything

<shawn> +1 to keep it Notifications and Feedback

Brent: I agree with Adina, instructions are there on the page, but what we are talking about is info that pops up, that tells you about something that just happened.

Adina: Agree with brent, should leave title as is.

<Susan> I was going to ask if we could move this to survey let us discuss concerns in github

Shadi: Want to wrap up videos before next week, would like to get the videos done by AccessU.

Proposed resolution: After consideration of comment to change title, the orginal "Notifications and Feedback" was agreed to more accurately reflect content of video and explanation of issue.

<Brent> +1

<yatil> +1

<shawn> +1

<Howard> +1

<Laura> +1

<Caleb> +1

<Adina> +1

<Susan> +1

RESOLUTION: After consideration of comment to change title, the orginal "Notifications and Feedback" was agreed to more accurately reflect content of video and explanation of issue.

Humorous baking episode

<shadi> https://github.com/w3c/wai-showcase-examples/issues/183

Shadi: Issue 183 was the fact that one is a tongue-in-cheek baking episode. Will edit for clarity, but does anyone still object to the approach?

<Sharron> +1 to keeping the video with editing for clarity

<shawn> I think keep it (and leave it lower down on the page :-)

Adina: I had a bit of a problem with it, but it was my 17 year old son's very favorite video and he really got it and talked about it later.

<Adina> +1 keep with possible editing with clarity

<Howard> +1 for keeping

<Brent> +1 for keeping

<yatil> +1 for keeping

<Judy> +1 for keeping

Accent of narration

Shadi: Speakers have discernable UK accent. Initially we had aspired to a more standard, less accented voice. There was at least one observation that the UK-centric accent will make people think it was only applicable in the UK.

<shadi> https://github.com/w3c/wai-showcase-examples/issues/165

Sharron: I think the accents are just fine, no need to change. Seems a minor concern and with considerations of schedule and budget, better to accept what we have. I strongly disagree with an investment of time and budget on this, especially because the actors display such diversity.

<yatil> +1 to keep the speaker, I didn't notice it too much. Probably we're more used to hear different accents outside of the US.

<Howard> agree strongly with Sharron

<shawn> I also agree strongly with Sharron

<Laura> +1 to Sharron's comments

<Susan> agree with Sharron

<Brent> I feel the accent is not an issue

Adina: While we originally tried for universal accent, it seems like it does not matter here from most people's reactions.

<Caleb> +1 agree with Sharron

<shawn> +1 to sharron that especially 'cause actors have good diversity

RESOLUTION: EOWG is happy with the accents in the current videos, sees no need to change.

<Adina> +1 -- the accents are fine

<Laura> +1

<Caleb> +1

<Howard> +1

<Susan> +1

<Judy> -1

<yatil> +1

Brent: Judy, let us get through the rest of the agenda. You could return to discuss the accents at 9:30 am after we get through the rest of the agenda.

Judy: I can't stay for that but just wanted quickly to clarify. Different audiences react variously. To many ears, the female voice sounds more regionally distinctive and may affect a bit of how the info is heard.
... if possible to change even for a few of them.
... I know that it is not an issue for anyone else but it is for me and I would like to have a follow up conversation.

Sharron: I think you accurately espressed it when you said it could affect perception "a bit." Given the more urgent issues of time, budget, and arranging for booking a new voiceover talent. I think those considerations significantly outweigh the other.

Background music

Shadi: Background music, not more than 20 decibels, need a way to stop music, etc

<Adina> Could mute if there were closed captions

<shawn> [ note that changing the music *is* a fairly easy thing to change (whereas some things are harder to change) ]

Shadi: So we will ask for improvements to the music presentaion.

Section text, timing of announcement/promotion

Shadi: Will also be working on section text, people seem to want links to more specific follow-up resources rather than just the general ones at the end.
... And a note about the announcement - we would like to announce this by GAAD the 19th of May so that they could be promoted. In the meantime do not circulate them would like the impact for GAAD and once the announcement comes from WAI/W3C then you are strongly encouraged to do so.

Improving Websites

Shadi: We determined that a title change was appropriate, collected a couple of suggestions in the survey. The proposed title is "Tips for Interim Accessibility Repairs." The whole document has been substantially rewritten based on comments from Susan and Shawn - thank you. New version more closely matches the Planning and Managing Guide, is much improved, and will be on the survey.

<shawn> [ fyi, the working name for this resource ages ago was "retrofitting" so this new proposed title fits with that :-]

Shadi: Reactions to the title?

<Howard> I like the title

Sharron: seems fine, interim is a bit of a mouthful but I have no alternative to suggest.

<shawn> quick reaction: good, not perfect, probably fine. will comment more in GitHub

Updates

Brent: Accessible Components List Survey will close on Monday, need UI feedback, functionality,complete the survey please.
... listed on the W4TW

Brent: WAI pages It is the one with the RM list for all 75 resources. Are currently working on a new management page where we can do searching and sorting and able to input useful info and overviews for assigned resources.

Brent: Resource Development Life CycleJames has been working on the resource to update the types of review done by EOWG. At the F2F, we determined that it was a kind of a product life cycle and James is in the process of formalizing it. Is working on the iterative version based on comments and hopes it is complete to infomr our work for the next F2F.

<yatil> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/RDLC

Brent: goal is to ensure that all RMs can follow the process. James request is for everyone to review the current version, and make small changes here or there and put your name by it.
... and if you do not want to put comments directly in the wiki, let me or Sharron know and we will help you.
... will have survey question about it.

Brent: Work for this week Have the Accessibility, Usability, and Inclusion for further consideration
... have gotten useful comments, Shawn and Shadi are fine tuning the text and will be back in touch with that update.

Brent: Availability survey We are looking to make a decision about May 13th the Friday after AccessU F2f, please update your availability.

<yatil> Availability Survey

<Susan> I would actually prefer to not attend Friday meeting as I'll have to make up my billable client work over the weekend in order to attend our F2F mtg

Brent: Status of your RM resources Have asked for that to be done by May 1, want to use the data at the F2F, will keep it open, use it as a tool to go through the resources assigned to you.

Brent: Surveys This week, will have the weekly one, the individual resource management and ask for everyone to keep an eye on the survey pages. We will of course send notices if we post new surveys.
... Also, Sharron will be sending a checklist for thinking about the web site redesign, probably posted to the wiki. Thanks Shadi for all your input in the meeting today and leading on the resources that you are pushing through to publication. Thanks everyone!