See also: IRC log
<janina> 7 agenda next and future meetingsu http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#s_273 8 agenda+ be done
<janina> Ah, let's clear and try that again!
<scribe> ScribeNick: ShaneM
ShaneM - we are working on a draft extension spec around note / noteref. Some report at next A11Y task force meeting.
Cyns: Are there any plans for meetings at CSun?
janina: There was some talk of WCAG meeting but didn't get put together. So I don't think so.
Cyns: I thought john mentioned meeting at CSun a few weeks ago.
Leonie: Web Platform considered doing some A11Y stuff, but it was cost prohibitive.
janina: That is frequently the problem with meeting at CSun
JF: That is also when the AC reps are meeting in Boston. So that will impact many people who might have participated.
Cyns: The sunday after CSun is Easter this year, so that will impact a lot of people too.
Gottfried: I wasn't on the
mailing list but now I am (and in the group).
... there is a new working group in Active and Healthing
Ageing. I am leading the effort. We are trying to promote
personalized user interfaces. Make the case that different
people need different user interfaces. This has a lot to do
with a11y.
... we wills start with a number of user profiles to show how
different types of people need to interact with different
environments.
janina: is there a URI?
Gottfried: not yet. If anyone wants to be involved let me know.
Ryladog_: I am interested.
<janina> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/products/8
<Gottfried> Related to the last topic: URL for the EIP-AHA Action C2 in which the new work on Personal User Experience is starting: https://webgate.ec.europa.eu/eipaha/actiongroup/index/c2
JF: Fred delivered on ACTION-2009
ACTION-2009
<trackbot> ACTION-2009 -- Fred Esch to Review media capture depth stream extensions https://www.w3.org/tr/mediacapture-depth/ -- due 2016-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/2009
fesch: no A11Y concerns with this
document at this time.
... the tech has a lot of potential for a11y. I put a note in
the action.
ACTION-2009: close
<trackbot> Sorry, but I think you meant to close ACTION-2009.
<jf> ACTION-2007
<trackbot> ACTION-2007 -- Fred Esch to Review shacl use cases and requirements https://www.w3.org/tr/shacl-ucr/ -- due 2016-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/2007
close ACTION-2009
<trackbot> Closed ACTION-2009.
fesch: no concerns - really low level stuff.
close ACTION-2007
<trackbot> Closed ACTION-2007.
ACTION-2006
<trackbot> ACTION-2006 -- John Foliot to Draft comment to ensure authoring guidance is provide on eme https://www.w3.org/tr/encrypted-media/ -- due 2016-02-10 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/2006
JF: need another couple of days.
ACTION-2005
<trackbot> ACTION-2005 -- Fred Esch to Review media queries level 4 https://www.w3.org/tr/mediaqueries-4/ -- due 2016-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/2005
fesch: we definitely have an
interest in this. Particularly a high contrast MQ.
... It is also of interest to DPub.
... MS has proposed a high contrast MQ but it is not noted in
the document.
... pointer may have several MQs for features like hover,
light-level. We might want setters for them so that we could
override for some users.
... there are syntax diagrams in there - the SVG a11y task
force will provide feedback on the SVG in the document. That
will be done asynchronously.
Cyns: Wasn't there an email about high contrast a few weeks ago? If there was, we (MS) are interested in doing that.
fesch: Actually there is an action from 2012 about a high contrast MQ.
janina: in the indie-ui working
group there were requirements for user personalization. We
thought that might be MQs but there is some pushback from
that.
... Dpub has some dialog about that.
... ShaneM it looked like you had a great suggestion for
generalizing the opportunity and asking CSS for a specific
suggestion and we could deal with the general case later.
... personalization is part of the ARIA activity. Rich is
interested in pushing it once 1.1 is shipped.
... From APA perspective, we need to continue to push to get
this done. We should let them know that we have a lot of
interest in the development and note there is a lot of need for
generalized P10N opportunities.
fesch: Florian did note that there is some interest in P10N in an email.
<fesch> There are some areas where preference media queries may have a role to play, and the CSSWG is interested in looking into these even though they have not been prioritized so far. This would be focused on accessibility, tying into the OS level controls that already exist. Examples put forward by apple have included: preferring reduced animation, preferring using shapes rather than colors to...
<fesch> ...draw distinctions between things, or preferring reduced transparency.
<fesch> The difficulty is that these things need to be fairly abstract (if they were not, user style sheets would be more appropriate), yet actionable, and at the same time be a sufficiently short list that implementors and authors can be expected to care. The most likely path forward here is to work from the list of settings that pre-exist in operating systems and standardize that.
fesch: he is suggesting that they
work on what the native platforms have in common at a low
level.
... what we really need is someone to put forward all of the
ideas we want - not just what is already supported
universally.
Cyns: It would be good if someone from Apple would participate. Their colors stuff is really different.
janina: James Craig is active in this area.
fesch: we need to note on the wiki that we have a huge interest in this spec.
<scribe> ACTION: MichaelC to update the wiki to add note about our interest in MQ4 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/02/10-apa-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2010 - Update the wiki to add note about our interest in mq4 [on Michael Cooper - due 2016-02-17].
janina: florian pushed back on using a MQ for deciding if a user wants to see details or not. There was some comment from James Craig this morning (on the dpub mailing list).
jf: there is a definitely tie in
to the cognitive task force.
... is anyone from that task force aware of these
discussions.
janina: I don't know if they need
to be in CSS right now - they are pretty loaded already.
... not sure who on the team outside of Lisa is a technology
person and could assist with spec development.
ShaneM: why can't they pick one thing and do it (via MQs)? We do all sorts of things that are one off.
close ACTION-2002
<trackbot> Closed ACTION-2002.
ACTION-2001
<trackbot> ACTION-2001 -- Léonie Watson to Review gamepad https://www.w3.org/tr/gamepad/ -- due 2016-02-10 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/2001
<scribe> continues...
ACTION-1762
<trackbot> ACTION-1762 -- Katie Haritos-Shea to Review http://www.w3.org/tr/csp-cookies/ content security policy: cookie controls to see if a11y issues or not -- due 2016-02-10 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/1762
<scribe> continues...
ACTION-1762 add one week
ACTION-1751
<trackbot> ACTION-1751 -- Léonie Watson to Review push api http://www.w3.org/tr/push-api/ -- due 2016-02-10 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/1751
in the middle of it. Continues.
ACTION-1750
<trackbot> ACTION-1750 -- Cynthia Shelly to Review ui events -- due 2016-02-06 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/1750
<scribe> In progress - one more week.
ACTION-1669
<trackbot> ACTION-1669 -- Katie Haritos-Shea to Look at data on the web best practices http://www.w3.org/tr/dwbp/ -- due 2016-01-20 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/1669
<scribe> continues
ACTION-1722
<trackbot> ACTION-1722 -- Janina Sajka to Look at emma 2.0 http://www.w3.org/tr/2015/wd-emma20-20150908/ -- due 2015-12-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/1722
janina: actually been on that - it is a huge huge spec. Still looking at it. It was a FPWD so we have time.
ACTION-1685
<trackbot> ACTION-1685 -- Janina Sajka to Manage review of http://www.w3.org/tr/2015/wd-tracking-compliance-20150714/ tracking compliance and scope (note explicit review request needs response) -- due 2015-12-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/1685
janina: read it through - it is
fine.
... dont see any A11Y problems. When we get P10N going, we can
add controls about tracking me, that i use a screen reader,
etc.
... there are implicit UI effects - but no specific UI
requirements.
close ACTION-1685
<trackbot> Closed ACTION-1685.
ACTION-1597
<trackbot> ACTION-1597 -- Janina Sajka to Review web midi api http://www.w3.org/tr/webmidi/ -- due 2015-12-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/1597
<scribe> continues...
ACTION-1566
<trackbot> ACTION-1566 -- Janina Sajka to Follow up with web notifications folk on cyn's response -- due 2015-12-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/1566
janina: I will take a look at it.
ACTION-1648
<trackbot> ACTION-1648 -- James Nurthen to Review entry point regulation http://www.w3.org/tr/epr/ -- due 2015-12-16 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/1648
close ACTION-1648
<trackbot> Closed ACTION-1648.
janina: that was done we just forgot to close it
CSS Fragmentation Model level 3
Looks like we are up to date.
janina: Matt, can you bring us up
to speed after Sapporo? We will do a detailed dive on the
24th.
... fantasai will provide some input by the 24th as well
(hopefully)
mck: most of the people on the
call were in Japan.
... most of the discussion there was about whether the Firefox
behavior that changes keyboard focus according to flexbox
instead of the DOM.
... there was a bug filed on FIrefox. CSS seemed to agree it
was a bug. APA/ARIA seemed to be divided on whether it as
bug.
... at the conclusion I thought APA agreed to not take a
position (therefore leave it interpreted as a bug).
... there were lines drawn in Japan with poeple having
different viewpoints. We did a little mockup in Japan. I was
unable to dig that code up again.
... it was a test to see whether the AX tree and the reading
order was also being adjusted, or whether the visual order was
out of sync with the reading order.
... at least one case it was out of sync.
janina: that sounds like a good review.
<LJWatson> 6My 2p on the subject of flexbox http://tink.uk/flexbox-the-keyboard-navigation-disconnect/
janina: I know that Rich had a
lot of concerns with the flexbox spec when it moved to CR.
There was a concern from IBM.
... the APA group should still say something. CSS said that
they would put forward a position. I don't think that we need
to block CR. We would need to block PR if there is no
conclusion about this issue.
... we are still expecting that writeup from fantasai and
hopefully that will resolve the position about reading order
etc.
... Perhaps there will be bugs against browsers, but hopeful
that it will get to a meaningful resolution.
mck: I think that it is important
that we characterize the behavior of Firefox. We found one case
where the behavior was not as horrible as it could have
been.
... I think that the majority of people felt firefox shoudl
revert the code and not convert the reading order / visual
order based upon flexbox properties.
Cyns: I disagree. The visual and reading order need to match. There is an impass that needs to get resolved.
mck: based upon the CSS spec it definitely is a bug.
Cyns: then the CSS spec needs to get fixed, because firefox is doing something useful.
mck: janina, we need to decide if
APA should take a position on this. I get concerned that we
might burn political capital for something where there is an
engineering solution.
... can anyone show where there is an engineering solution for
this. The burden of proof should be people bringing forward
engineering problems that cannot be resolved without the orders
matching.
janina: We might be diving into things that should be discussed on the 24th.
Cyns: I agree that using concrete
examples is a way to move forward.
... it may be that firefox solution is not the best one. But I
want a solution that does not limit innovation. This issue has
been a problem for as long as I have been doing this.
... and flexbox is a useful thing and we probnably don't want
to block it.
janina: yes - we don't wnat to block it.
LJWatson: +1 to Cyns comments. We have had this problem for as long as layout has been separated from content. The DOM does not get rewritten all the time. We need to fix this at the browser level.
mck: IBM is considering a formal object if it puts the reading order and the DOM out of sync.
Cyns: you mean if the browser is allowed to repair or not?
fesch: If your code fails a test because of the spec, then that is unacceptable to us.
Cyns: what if the spec allowed innovation?
janina: I don't think fesch is
ready to talk to that. It is on the table. We need to come up
with an approach that preserves the ability to innovate and
also preserves good readong order that is reasonable.
... we need to see the language, have the conversation, and see
the tests.
fesch: Do they need two implementations?
Cyns: If it is a SHOULD, then no.
LJWatson: If it is not done in the DOM then there are a lot of techniques available that cannot do the job.
Cyns: Blocking flexbox will not
stop the other things in CSS that already have this
problem.
... we already have the issue that the tab order, the screen
reader order, and the visual order don't match in various
situations.
<LJWatson> +1 to cyns again.
mck: The nice thing about flexbox
is that you can reorder visuals without effecting the desired
reading order / keyboard order.
... flexbox gives us a lot of flexibility in solving our
reading order problems.
... LJWatson you mentioned drag and drop. I have talked about
that problem to engineers and none of them have thought that
CSS is the right way to solve it instead of reordering the DOM
to get the visual order correct.
LJWatson: But most engineers dont want to do that because it is not performant. Rewriting the DOM is expensive.
Cyns: That's one of the goals of flexbox - that we can avoid those costs.
mck: I am not sure that is really the motivation.
LJWatson: How much evidence do we need that separation does not work?
<jf> bye all
janina: top of the hour.
... this is the discussion we need to have on the 24th and
reach a conclusion.
<someone> : we need to outline what our goals our with this debate. How far are we willing to go?
janina: we are interested in a
reliable solution. We don't need to set rules about the debate
at this point.
... CSS has a committment to us for best practices. If that
provides enough guidance that we dont need to go to MUSTs then
we can move forward.
... there are specs moving torward Recommendation, and we need
a good solution. But I don't want to be too proscriptive in
setting the rules.
... This discussion helped us level set.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.144 of Date: 2015/11/17 08:39:34 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/mck/fesch/ Succeeded: s/fesch/mck/ Found ScribeNick: ShaneM Inferring Scribes: ShaneM Present: Janina Joanmarie_Diggs ShaneM LJWatson JF Katie Haritos-Shea Regrets: Rich MichielBijl Found Date: 10 Feb 2016 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2016/02/10-apa-minutes.html People with action items: michaelc[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]