Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference

10 Feb 2016

See also: IRC log


Janina, Joanmarie_Diggs, ShaneM, LJWatson, JF, Katie, Haritos-Shea
Rich, MichielBijl


<janina> 7 agenda next and future meetingsu http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#s_273 8 agenda+ be done

<janina> Ah, let's clear and try that again!

preview agenda with items from two minutes

<scribe> ScribeNick: ShaneM

ShaneM - we are working on a draft extension spec around note / noteref. Some report at next A11Y task force meeting.

Cyns: Are there any plans for meetings at CSun?

janina: There was some talk of WCAG meeting but didn't get put together. So I don't think so.

Cyns: I thought john mentioned meeting at CSun a few weeks ago.

Leonie: Web Platform considered doing some A11Y stuff, but it was cost prohibitive.

janina: That is frequently the problem with meeting at CSun

JF: That is also when the AC reps are meeting in Boston. So that will impact many people who might have participated.

Cyns: The sunday after CSun is Easter this year, so that will impact a lot of people too.

Gottfried: I wasn't on the mailing list but now I am (and in the group).
... there is a new working group in Active and Healthing Ageing. I am leading the effort. We are trying to promote personalized user interfaces. Make the case that different people need different user interfaces. This has a lot to do with a11y.
... we wills start with a number of user profiles to show how different types of people need to interact with different environments.

janina: is there a URI?

Gottfried: not yet. If anyone wants to be involved let me know.

Ryladog_: I am interested.

Actions Review (Specs) https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/products/8

<janina> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/products/8

<Gottfried> Related to the last topic: URL for the EIP-AHA Action C2 in which the new work on Personal User Experience is starting: https://webgate.ec.europa.eu/eipaha/actiongroup/index/c2

JF: Fred delivered on ACTION-2009


<trackbot> ACTION-2009 -- Fred Esch to Review media capture depth stream extensions https://www.w3.org/tr/mediacapture-depth/ -- due 2016-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/2009

fesch: no A11Y concerns with this document at this time.
... the tech has a lot of potential for a11y. I put a note in the action.

ACTION-2009: close

<trackbot> Sorry, but I think you meant to close ACTION-2009.

<jf> ACTION-2007

<trackbot> ACTION-2007 -- Fred Esch to Review shacl use cases and requirements https://www.w3.org/tr/shacl-ucr/ -- due 2016-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/2007

close ACTION-2009

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-2009.

fesch: no concerns - really low level stuff.

close ACTION-2007

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-2007.


<trackbot> ACTION-2006 -- John Foliot to Draft comment to ensure authoring guidance is provide on eme https://www.w3.org/tr/encrypted-media/ -- due 2016-02-10 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/2006

JF: need another couple of days.


<trackbot> ACTION-2005 -- Fred Esch to Review media queries level 4 https://www.w3.org/tr/mediaqueries-4/ -- due 2016-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/2005

fesch: we definitely have an interest in this. Particularly a high contrast MQ.
... It is also of interest to DPub.
... MS has proposed a high contrast MQ but it is not noted in the document.
... pointer may have several MQs for features like hover, light-level. We might want setters for them so that we could override for some users.
... there are syntax diagrams in there - the SVG a11y task force will provide feedback on the SVG in the document. That will be done asynchronously.

Cyns: Wasn't there an email about high contrast a few weeks ago? If there was, we (MS) are interested in doing that.

fesch: Actually there is an action from 2012 about a high contrast MQ.

janina: in the indie-ui working group there were requirements for user personalization. We thought that might be MQs but there is some pushback from that.
... Dpub has some dialog about that.
... ShaneM it looked like you had a great suggestion for generalizing the opportunity and asking CSS for a specific suggestion and we could deal with the general case later.
... personalization is part of the ARIA activity. Rich is interested in pushing it once 1.1 is shipped.
... From APA perspective, we need to continue to push to get this done. We should let them know that we have a lot of interest in the development and note there is a lot of need for generalized P10N opportunities.

fesch: Florian did note that there is some interest in P10N in an email.

<fesch> There are some areas where preference media queries may have a role to play, and the CSSWG is interested in looking into these even though they have not been prioritized so far. This would be focused on accessibility, tying into the OS level controls that already exist. Examples put forward by apple have included: preferring reduced animation, preferring using shapes rather than colors to...

<fesch> ...draw distinctions between things, or preferring reduced transparency.

<fesch> The difficulty is that these things need to be fairly abstract (if they were not, user style sheets would be more appropriate), yet actionable, and at the same time be a sufficiently short list that implementors and authors can be expected to care. The most likely path forward here is to work from the list of settings that pre-exist in operating systems and standardize that.

fesch: he is suggesting that they work on what the native platforms have in common at a low level.
... what we really need is someone to put forward all of the ideas we want - not just what is already supported universally.

Cyns: It would be good if someone from Apple would participate. Their colors stuff is really different.

janina: James Craig is active in this area.

fesch: we need to note on the wiki that we have a huge interest in this spec.

<scribe> ACTION: MichaelC to update the wiki to add note about our interest in MQ4 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/02/10-apa-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-2010 - Update the wiki to add note about our interest in mq4 [on Michael Cooper - due 2016-02-17].

janina: florian pushed back on using a MQ for deciding if a user wants to see details or not. There was some comment from James Craig this morning (on the dpub mailing list).

jf: there is a definitely tie in to the cognitive task force.
... is anyone from that task force aware of these discussions.

janina: I don't know if they need to be in CSS right now - they are pretty loaded already.
... not sure who on the team outside of Lisa is a technology person and could assist with spec development.

ShaneM: why can't they pick one thing and do it (via MQs)? We do all sorts of things that are one off.

close ACTION-2002

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-2002.


<trackbot> ACTION-2001 -- Léonie Watson to Review gamepad https://www.w3.org/tr/gamepad/ -- due 2016-02-10 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/2001

<scribe> continues...


<trackbot> ACTION-1762 -- Katie Haritos-Shea to Review http://www.w3.org/tr/csp-cookies/ content security policy: cookie controls to see if a11y issues or not -- due 2016-02-10 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/1762

<scribe> continues...

ACTION-1762 add one week


<trackbot> ACTION-1751 -- Léonie Watson to Review push api http://www.w3.org/tr/push-api/ -- due 2016-02-10 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/1751

in the middle of it. Continues.


<trackbot> ACTION-1750 -- Cynthia Shelly to Review ui events -- due 2016-02-06 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/1750

<scribe> In progress - one more week.


<trackbot> ACTION-1669 -- Katie Haritos-Shea to Look at data on the web best practices http://www.w3.org/tr/dwbp/ -- due 2016-01-20 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/1669

<scribe> continues


<trackbot> ACTION-1722 -- Janina Sajka to Look at emma 2.0 http://www.w3.org/tr/2015/wd-emma20-20150908/ -- due 2015-12-16 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/1722

janina: actually been on that - it is a huge huge spec. Still looking at it. It was a FPWD so we have time.


<trackbot> ACTION-1685 -- Janina Sajka to Manage review of http://www.w3.org/tr/2015/wd-tracking-compliance-20150714/ tracking compliance and scope (note explicit review request needs response) -- due 2015-12-16 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/1685

janina: read it through - it is fine.
... dont see any A11Y problems. When we get P10N going, we can add controls about tracking me, that i use a screen reader, etc.
... there are implicit UI effects - but no specific UI requirements.

close ACTION-1685

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-1685.


<trackbot> ACTION-1597 -- Janina Sajka to Review web midi api http://www.w3.org/tr/webmidi/ -- due 2015-12-16 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/1597

<scribe> continues...


<trackbot> ACTION-1566 -- Janina Sajka to Follow up with web notifications folk on cyn's response -- due 2015-12-16 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/1566

janina: I will take a look at it.


<trackbot> ACTION-1648 -- James Nurthen to Review entry point regulation http://www.w3.org/tr/epr/ -- due 2015-12-16 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/1648

close ACTION-1648

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-1648.

janina: that was done we just forgot to close it

new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html

CSS Fragmentation Model level 3

Looks like we are up to date.

CSS Flexbox Issues Status -- Matt, Fred, Janina

janina: Matt, can you bring us up to speed after Sapporo? We will do a detailed dive on the 24th.
... fantasai will provide some input by the 24th as well (hopefully)

mck: most of the people on the call were in Japan.
... most of the discussion there was about whether the Firefox behavior that changes keyboard focus according to flexbox instead of the DOM.
... there was a bug filed on FIrefox. CSS seemed to agree it was a bug. APA/ARIA seemed to be divided on whether it as bug.
... at the conclusion I thought APA agreed to not take a position (therefore leave it interpreted as a bug).
... there were lines drawn in Japan with poeple having different viewpoints. We did a little mockup in Japan. I was unable to dig that code up again.
... it was a test to see whether the AX tree and the reading order was also being adjusted, or whether the visual order was out of sync with the reading order.
... at least one case it was out of sync.

janina: that sounds like a good review.

<LJWatson> 6My 2p on the subject of flexbox http://tink.uk/flexbox-the-keyboard-navigation-disconnect/

janina: I know that Rich had a lot of concerns with the flexbox spec when it moved to CR. There was a concern from IBM.
... the APA group should still say something. CSS said that they would put forward a position. I don't think that we need to block CR. We would need to block PR if there is no conclusion about this issue.
... we are still expecting that writeup from fantasai and hopefully that will resolve the position about reading order etc.
... Perhaps there will be bugs against browsers, but hopeful that it will get to a meaningful resolution.

mck: I think that it is important that we characterize the behavior of Firefox. We found one case where the behavior was not as horrible as it could have been.
... I think that the majority of people felt firefox shoudl revert the code and not convert the reading order / visual order based upon flexbox properties.

Cyns: I disagree. The visual and reading order need to match. There is an impass that needs to get resolved.

mck: based upon the CSS spec it definitely is a bug.

Cyns: then the CSS spec needs to get fixed, because firefox is doing something useful.

mck: janina, we need to decide if APA should take a position on this. I get concerned that we might burn political capital for something where there is an engineering solution.
... can anyone show where there is an engineering solution for this. The burden of proof should be people bringing forward engineering problems that cannot be resolved without the orders matching.

janina: We might be diving into things that should be discussed on the 24th.

Cyns: I agree that using concrete examples is a way to move forward.
... it may be that firefox solution is not the best one. But I want a solution that does not limit innovation. This issue has been a problem for as long as I have been doing this.
... and flexbox is a useful thing and we probnably don't want to block it.

janina: yes - we don't wnat to block it.

LJWatson: +1 to Cyns comments. We have had this problem for as long as layout has been separated from content. The DOM does not get rewritten all the time. We need to fix this at the browser level.

mck: IBM is considering a formal object if it puts the reading order and the DOM out of sync.

Cyns: you mean if the browser is allowed to repair or not?

fesch: If your code fails a test because of the spec, then that is unacceptable to us.

Cyns: what if the spec allowed innovation?

janina: I don't think fesch is ready to talk to that. It is on the table. We need to come up with an approach that preserves the ability to innovate and also preserves good readong order that is reasonable.
... we need to see the language, have the conversation, and see the tests.

fesch: Do they need two implementations?

Cyns: If it is a SHOULD, then no.

LJWatson: If it is not done in the DOM then there are a lot of techniques available that cannot do the job.

Cyns: Blocking flexbox will not stop the other things in CSS that already have this problem.
... we already have the issue that the tab order, the screen reader order, and the visual order don't match in various situations.

<LJWatson> +1 to cyns again.

mck: The nice thing about flexbox is that you can reorder visuals without effecting the desired reading order / keyboard order.
... flexbox gives us a lot of flexibility in solving our reading order problems.
... LJWatson you mentioned drag and drop. I have talked about that problem to engineers and none of them have thought that CSS is the right way to solve it instead of reordering the DOM to get the visual order correct.

LJWatson: But most engineers dont want to do that because it is not performant. Rewriting the DOM is expensive.

Cyns: That's one of the goals of flexbox - that we can avoid those costs.

mck: I am not sure that is really the motivation.

LJWatson: How much evidence do we need that separation does not work?

<jf> bye all

janina: top of the hour.
... this is the discussion we need to have on the 24th and reach a conclusion.

<someone> : we need to outline what our goals our with this debate. How far are we willing to go?

janina: we are interested in a reliable solution. We don't need to set rules about the debate at this point.
... CSS has a committment to us for best practices. If that provides enough guidance that we dont need to go to MUSTs then we can move forward.
... there are specs moving torward Recommendation, and we need a good solution. But I don't want to be too proscriptive in setting the rules.
... This discussion helped us level set.

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: MichaelC to update the wiki to add note about our interest in MQ4 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/02/10-apa-minutes.html#action01]

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.144 (CVS log)
$Date: 2016/02/10 18:04:53 $

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This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.144  of Date: 2015/11/17 08:39:34  
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/mck/fesch/
Succeeded: s/fesch/mck/
Found ScribeNick: ShaneM
Inferring Scribes: ShaneM
Present: Janina Joanmarie_Diggs ShaneM LJWatson JF Katie Haritos-Shea
Regrets: Rich MichielBijl
Found Date: 10 Feb 2016
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2016/02/10-apa-minutes.html
People with action items: michaelc

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