W3C

- DRAFT -

Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
09 Apr 2015

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
+1.416.848.aaaa, Fred_Esch, janina, Matt_King, LJWatson, Michael_Cooper, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Alexander_Surkov, Joanmarie_Diggs
Regrets
Chair
Rich
Scribe
matt_king

Contents


<trackbot> Date: 09 April 2015

<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus

<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0109.html

<scribe> scribe: matt_king

describedat

RS: what is the current status of further discussion?

Janina: Suzanne will come on this call

RS: I would like to see more than 1 company represented

JC: What is Suzanne's view?

Janina: She is strongly in support.

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/dpub.html

DPUB DRAFT

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/dpub.html

RS: any objections to this going to 1st publicworking draft?
... Important to move this forward

<richardschwerdtfeger> +1

Janina: if no objections, I will put out CFC

<janina> +1

<fesch> +1

<joanie> +1

<LJWatson> +1

JN: Still concerned about role multiplication
... And being confused for those not in publishing

RS: Separate module so not everyone has to consume

JN: Concerned about some of the names, e.g., title
... Might be generally useful but wouldn't want to casll it title

RS: Also have similar concern

JN: Abstract is another role that is not sensible

JC: I object to that one as well.
... should work these issues out before public working draft.
... Pull out the ones that are less solid

RS: Or just put issue under them

JC: Rather not put them out if they have issues

RS: Is there a list of those that are contentious?

JC: In a quick glance I found several that are problematic

JN: For abstract, we could either change name or remove all abstract roles

JC: We could change in 1.1, but could be major point of confusion

RS: Surprised at that level of confusion over that role.

JC: people publishing epubs understand that role without issue.
... General web developers are instructed in the spec not to use abstract roles so having a role named abstract will be confusing to them.

<LJWatson> +1 to JC.

<clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/dpub.html#role_definitions

<clown> +1 to JC

Janina: not sure I agree that we have to have only one definition per term

Joanie: There will not be prefixes, right?

RS: yes

Joanie: These roles will show up in non-dpub content, right?

RS: publishing industry very clear they do not want name-spaced roles

Joanie: If I am making web app as non-publsiher, anything stopping me from using them?

RS: browser would have to support them

JC: rendering engine is same for browser and reader

RS: James are you wanting to lay in front of the publishing industry on the name space issue?

JC: I have objected every chance I have had; was not in room when decision was made.
... I wouldn't characterize as laying down in front of them, but I have big concerns

RS: They wanted hyphens but I didn't want that

JC: They were willing to have hyphens but not as a prefix separator?
... that doesn't make sense

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/

JC: Enumerated what he thought DPUB objections were to name space prefixes

<richardschwerdtfeger> dpub-footnote

RS: they do not want to do that either

MK: instead of prefixes, could we just make some of the role names longer? eg, docabstract instead of abstract?

RS: perhaps

JC: Recommend starting with names more like dpub-abstract, then later
... if we think the role is generally useful, we could integrate into main aria spec as the same role definition but diff name, e.g., dpub-abstract might map to summary.

RS: do we need to strip the contentious roles from the working draft

JC: Either that or very clear editorial notes

RS: Recommend we do not yet do working draft
... we need to define the issues first

JC: another way is no hyphen, e.g., dpubabstract, dpubchapter

Janina: James, can you join a call with them?

RS: not good time; 8 am thursday for James

JC: my scheudle is very challenging right now, even making these calls is difficult

<asurkov> joanie, I didn’t really think about naming

RS/JC: working out schedule

Settling on noon central on Wed, apr 22

for DPUB and James on same call.

Janina: holding 1st working draft up for that call?

RS: yes
... I am not sure we should take 1st wd that seriously, but definitely need to log issues.

JC: 1st public wd is like first call for implementation; very important.

MC: Will sned out code the day before.

<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0109.html

PLACEHOLDER

Joanie: Last week conclusion thought we were close to text ready
... would update and just ask for review then we would merge

action-1349?

<trackbot> action-1349 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2015-03-05 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349

<richardschwerdtfeger> Use aria-labelledby

<richardschwerdtfeger> Otherwise use aria-label

<richardschwerdtfeger> Otherwise use the associated label element

<richardschwerdtfeger> Otherwise use the placeholder attribute

<richardschwerdtfeger> Otherwise use the title attribute

<richardschwerdtfeger> If none of the above yield a usable text string there is no accessible

<richardschwerdtfeger> name

RS: we will have to talk about placeholder in name calc

Joanie: yes, but that is independent of the spec text

<joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0060.html

Joanie: reading spec text

<joanie> action-1349

<trackbot> action-1349 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2015-03-05 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349

RS: like the shorter, simpler text regarding empty strings.

JC: +`1

<joanie> Option 1 is: "Authors SHOULD present this hint to the user by displaying the hint text

<joanie> at any time the control's Value is the empty string."

Joanie: pasting in 2 options for the text.

<joanie> Option 2 is: "Authors SHOULD present this hint to the user by displaying the hint text

<joanie> at any time the control's Value is the empty string., including when the control first receives focus, and when users remove a previously entered value."

<jcraig> #1 is my preference. and if the extra clarity is required, add it add a separate (non-normative) editorial note

<richardschwerdtfeger> Any objection to adopting Option 1?

CS: like option 1 better.

Joseph: how about an option 3?

Option 1 + an example that includes part of option 2.

Janina: Would it be a separate note?

Joseph: thinking it would just be a separate sentence.

<clown> "Authors SHOULD present this hint to the user by displaying the hint text at any time the control's Value is the empty string. This includes cases where the control first receives focus, and when users remove a previously entered value."

JC: keep the normative sentence shorter.

<jcraig> +1

<richardschwerdtfeger> +1

<fesch> +1

CS: like any of them.

RESOLUTION: use option 3.

<joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0112.html

<joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0113.html

Joanie: Reading/describing 2 different example of placeholder use
... Proposal, use Joseph's example but have 2 version, one before and one after user input

<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention we could add the script

CS: Should have note pointing people to html placeholder

<Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to agree with what joanie just said.

JC: We see lots of use of custom placeholder because authors do not like dbrowser animations

rs: in interest of moving fwd, people OK with Joanie updating spec

Joanie: I like Joseph's example, and I wil wrap it up.

MEETING NEXT WEEK?

RS: I will be at html working group f2f
... should we have meeting next week?
... next meeting in 2 weeks?
... no meeting next week then.

RESOLUTION: next meeting on Apr 23

Summary of Action Items

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Default Present: +1.416.848.aaaa, Fred_Esch, janina, Matt_King, LJWatson, Michael_Cooper, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Alexander_Surkov, Joanmarie_Diggs
Present: +1.416.848.aaaa Fred_Esch janina Matt_King LJWatson Michael_Cooper Rich_Schwerdtfeger Alexander_Surkov Joanmarie_Diggs
Found Date: 09 Apr 2015
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/04/09-aria-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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