16:30:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:30:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/09-aria-irc
16:30:45 <LJWatson> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:30:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
16:30:46 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:30:48 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:30:48 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG()12:30PM already started
16:30:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
16:30:49 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:30:49 <trackbot> Date: 09 April 2015
16:30:57 <janina> zakim, who's here?
16:30:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.416.848.aaaa, Fred_Esch, [IPcaller], ??P12
16:30:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see richardschwerdtfeger, Zakim, RRSAgent, fesch, mattking, jamesn, asurkov, LJWatson, newtron, janina, MichaelC, joanie, ed, trackbot
16:31:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
16:31:08 <janina> zakim, ??P12 is me
16:31:08 <Zakim> +janina; got it
16:31:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
16:31:15 <Zakim> +Matt_King
16:31:23 <LJWatson> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:31:24 <Zakim> +??P15
16:31:24 <Zakim> +LJWatson; got it
16:31:28 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:31:46 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Alexander_Surkov
16:31:46 <Zakim> +Alexander_Surkov; got it
16:31:58 <janina> zakim, aaaa is Alex
16:31:58 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
16:32:04 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
16:32:10 <janina> zakim, who's here?
16:32:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see Alexander_Surkov, Fred_Esch, LJWatson, janina, Matt_King, Michael_Cooper, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joanmarie_Diggs
16:32:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see richardschwerdtfeger, Zakim, RRSAgent, fesch, mattking, jamesn, asurkov, LJWatson, newtron, janina, MichaelC, joanie, ed, trackbot
16:32:39 <janina> zakim, aaaa is Alexander_Surkov
16:32:39 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
16:32:48 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:32:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see Alexander_Surkov, Fred_Esch, LJWatson, janina, Matt_King, Michael_Cooper, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joanmarie_Diggs
16:33:07 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
16:33:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0109.html
16:34:21 <Zakim> +James_Craig
16:34:34 <mattking> scribe: matt_king
16:34:36 <Zakim> +Stefan_Schnabel
16:35:20 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
16:35:21 <mattking> TOPIC: describedat
16:35:37 <mattking> RS: what is the current status of further discussion?
16:36:02 <mattking> Janina: Suzanne will come on this call
16:36:07 <clown> clown has joined #aria
16:36:28 <mattking> RS: I would like to see more than 1 company represented
16:36:49 <mattking> JC: What is Suzanne's view?
16:37:08 <mattking> Janina: She is strongly in support.
16:37:19 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
16:37:28 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:37:28 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
16:37:35 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:37:35 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:37:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/dpub.html
16:37:55 <mattking> TOPIC: DPUB DRAFT
16:38:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/dpub.html
16:38:31 <mattking> RS: any objections to this going to 1st publicworking draft?
16:38:56 <mattking> RS: Important to move this forward
16:39:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> +1
16:39:21 <mattking> Janina: if no objections, I will put out CFC
16:39:21 <janina> +1
16:39:22 <fesch> +1
16:39:30 <joanie> +1
16:39:47 <LJWatson> +1
16:39:49 <mattking> JN: Still concerned about role multiplication
16:40:02 <mattking> JN: And being confused for those not in publishing
16:40:18 <mattking> RS: Separate module so not everyone has to consume
16:40:41 <mattking> JN: Concerned about some of the names, e.g., title
16:41:03 <mattking> JN: Might be generally useful but wouldn't want to casll it title
16:41:15 <mattking> RS: Also have similar concern
16:41:29 <mattking> JN: Abstract is another role that is not sensible
16:41:41 <mattking> JC: I object to that one as well.
16:41:55 <mattking> JC: should work these issues out before public working draft.
16:42:01 <joanie> q+
16:42:06 <mattking> JC: Pull out the ones that are less solid
16:42:17 <mattking> RS: Or just put issue under them
16:42:34 <mattking> JC: Rather not put them out if they have issues
16:42:51 <mattking> RS: Is there a list of those that are contentious?
16:43:19 <mattking> JC: In a quick glance I found several that are problematic
16:44:03 <mattking> JN: For abstract, we could either change name or remove all abstract roles
16:44:23 <mattking> JC: We could change in 1.1, but could be major point of confusion
16:44:43 <mattking> RS: Surprised at that level of confusion over that role.
16:45:04 <mattking> JC: people publishing epubs understand that role without issue.
16:45:44 <mattking> JC: General web developers are instructed in the spec  not to use abstract roles so having a role named abstract will be confusing to them.
16:45:57 <LJWatson> +1 to JC.
16:46:03 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/dpub.html#role_definitions
16:46:09 <clown> +1 to JC
16:46:34 <mattking> Janina: not sure I agree that we have to have only one definition per term
16:46:47 <clown> q?
16:47:02 <mattking> Joanie: There will not be prefixes, right?
16:47:11 <mattking> RS: yes
16:47:38 <mattking> Joanie: These roles will show up in non-dpub content, right?
16:48:36 <mattking> RS: publishing industry very clear they do not want name-spaced roles
16:49:18 <mattking> Joanie: If I am making web app as non-publsiher, anything stopping me from using them?
16:49:28 <mattking> RS: browser would have to support them
16:49:40 <mattking> JC: rendering engine is same for browser and reader
16:50:07 <mattking> RS: James are you wanting to lay in front of the publishing industry on the name space issue?
16:50:33 <mattking> JC: I have objected every chance I have had; was not in room when decision  was made.
16:50:50 <mattking> JC: I wouldn't characterize as laying down in front of them, but I have big concerns
16:51:10 <mattking> RS: They wanted hyphens but I didn't want that
16:51:41 <mattking> JC: They were willing to have hyphens but not as a prefix separator?
16:51:49 <mattking> JC: that doesn't make sense
16:53:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
16:53:56 <mattking> JC: Enumerated what he thought Mozilla objections were to name space prefixes
16:54:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> dpub-footnote
16:54:22 <mattking> RS: they do not want to do that either
16:55:21 <mattking> s/Mozilla/DPUB/
16:55:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/09-aria-minutes.html clown
16:56:29 <mattking> MK: instead of prefixes, could we just make some of the role names longer? eg, docabstract instead of abstract?
16:56:38 <mattking> RS: perhaps
16:57:37 <mattking> JC: Recommend starting with names more like dpub-abstract, then later
16:58:31 <mattking> JC: if we think the role is generally useful, we could integrate into main aria spec as the same role definition but diff name, e.g., dpub-abstract might map to summary.
16:59:10 <mattking> RS: do we need to strip the contentious  roles from the working draft
16:59:25 <mattking> JC: Either that or very clear editorial notes
16:59:42 <mattking> RS: Recommend we do not yet do working draft
16:59:54 <mattking> RS: we need to define the issues first
17:00:27 <mattking> JC: another way is no hyphen, e.g., dpubabstract, dpubchapter
17:00:53 <mattking> Janina: James, can you join a call with them?
17:01:07 <mattking> RS: not good time; 8 am thursday for James
17:01:31 <mattking> JC: my scheudle is very challenging right now, even making these calls is difficult
17:02:10 <asurkov> joanie, I didn’t really think about naming
17:03:20 <mattking> RS/JC: working out schedule
17:05:58 <mattking> Settling on noon central on Wed, apr 22
17:06:18 <mattking> for DPUB and James on same call.
17:07:01 <mattking> Janina: holding 1st working draft up for that call?
17:07:04 <mattking> RS: yes
17:08:54 <mattking> RS: I am not sure we should take 1st wd that seriously, but definitely need to log issues.
17:09:17 <mattking> JC: 1st public wd is like first call for implementation; very important.
17:09:43 <mattking> MC: Will sned out code the day before.
17:11:18 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
17:11:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0109.html
17:12:08 <mattking> TOPIC: PLACEHOLDER
17:12:28 <mattking> Joanie: Last week conclusion thought we were close to text ready
17:12:46 <mattking> Joanie: would update and just ask for review then we would merge
17:13:02 <mattking> action-1349?
17:13:02 <trackbot> action-1349 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2015-03-05 -- OPEN
17:13:02 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349
17:13:42 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
17:13:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> Use aria-labelledby
17:13:43 <richardschwerdtfeger>     Otherwise use aria-label
17:13:45 <richardschwerdtfeger>     Otherwise use the associated label element
17:13:46 <richardschwerdtfeger>     Otherwise use the placeholder attribute
17:13:47 <richardschwerdtfeger>     Otherwise use the title attribute
17:13:48 <richardschwerdtfeger>     If none of the above yield a usable text string there is no accessible
17:13:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> name
17:14:12 <mattking> RS: we will have to talk about placeholder in name calc
17:14:25 <mattking> Joanie: yes, but that is independent of the spec text
17:14:34 <joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0060.html
17:14:47 <mattking> Joanie: reading spec text
17:16:28 <joanie> action-1349
17:16:28 <trackbot> action-1349 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2015-03-05 -- OPEN
17:16:28 <Zakim> -LJWatson
17:16:28 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349
17:17:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:17:57 <joanie> q-
17:18:21 <mattking> RS: like the shorter, simpler text regarding empty strings.
17:18:24 <mattking> JC: +`1
17:19:05 <joanie> Option 1 is: "Authors SHOULD present this hint to the user by displaying the hint text
17:19:08 <joanie> at any time the control's Value is the empty string."
17:19:09 <mattking> Joanie: pasting in 2 options for the text.
17:19:18 <joanie> Option 2 is: "Authors SHOULD present this hint to the user by displaying the hint text
17:19:33 <joanie> at any time the control's Value is the empty string., including when the control first receives focus, and when users remove a previously entered value."
17:19:47 <jcraig> #1 is my preference. and if the extra clarity is required, add it add a separate (non-normative) editorial note
17:20:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> Any objection to adopting Option 1?
17:20:41 <mattking> CS: like option 1 better.
17:20:54 <mattking> Joseph: how about an option 3?
17:21:23 <mattking> Option 1 + an example that includes part of option 2.
17:21:45 <mattking> Janina: Would it be a separate note?
17:22:12 <mattking> Joseph: thinking it would just be a separate sentence.
17:22:28 <clown> "Authors SHOULD present this hint to the user by displaying the hint text at any time the control's Value is the empty string.  This includes cases where the control first receives focus, and when users remove a previously entered value."
17:22:45 <mattking> JC: keep the normative sentence shorter.
17:23:02 <jcraig> +1
17:23:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> +1
17:23:14 <fesch> +1
17:23:29 <mattking> CS: like any of them.
17:23:43 <mattking> RESOLUTION: use option 3.
17:24:18 <joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0112.html
17:26:04 <joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0113.html
17:26:56 <mattking> Joanie: Reading/describing 2 different example of placeholder use
17:27:33 <jcraig> q+ to mention we could add the script
17:27:37 <mattking> Joanie: Proposal, use Joseph's example but have 2 version, one before and one after user input
17:27:52 <jcraig> ack me
17:27:52 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention we could add the script
17:27:54 <clown> q+ to agree with what joanie just said.
17:28:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:28:51 <mattking> CS: Should have note pointing people to html placeholder
17:29:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack Joseph
17:29:22 <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to agree with what joanie just said.
17:29:52 <mattking> JC: We see lots of use of custom placeholder because authors do not like dbrowser animations
17:30:19 <mattking> rs: in interest of moving fwd, people OK with Joanie updating spec
17:31:16 <mattking> Joanie: I like Joseph's example,  and I wil wrap it up.
17:31:27 <mattking> rrsagent, make minutes
17:31:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/09-aria-minutes.html mattking
17:31:39 <mattking> rrsagent, make log public
17:32:02 <mattking> TOPIC: MEETING NEXT WEEK?
17:32:16 <mattking> RS: I will be at html working group f2f
17:32:27 <mattking> RS: should we have meeting next week?
17:32:38 <mattking> RS: next meeting in 2 weeks?
17:32:52 <mattking> RS: no meeting next week then.
17:33:04 <mattking> RESOLUTION: next meeting on Apr 23
17:33:10 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:33:12 <Zakim> -James_Craig
17:33:14 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
17:33:15 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:33:16 <Zakim> -Stefan_Schnabel
17:33:16 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
17:33:18 <Zakim> -janina
17:33:18 <Zakim> -Alexander_Surkov
17:33:19 <mattking> rrsagent, make minutes
17:33:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/09-aria-minutes.html mattking
17:33:20 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
17:33:25 <Zakim> -Fred_Esch
17:33:27 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
17:33:38 <mattking> zakim, bye
17:33:38 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +1.416.848.aaaa, Fred_Esch, janina, Matt_King, LJWatson, Michael_Cooper, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Alexander_Surkov, Joanmarie_Diggs,
17:33:38 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
17:33:41 <Zakim> ... James_Craig, Stefan_Schnabel, James_Nurthen, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Cynthia_Shelly
17:33:58 <mattking> rrsagent, make minutes
17:33:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/09-aria-minutes.html mattking
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