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<trackbot> Date: 09 January 2015
<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C SVG Accessibility Task Force
<richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Fred
<fesch> scribe:Rich
<richardschwerdtfeger> scribenick: Rich
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html
<fesch> Rich: Wants svg mapping spec reviewed, but wants a couple of weeks to update before review
<fesch> Rich: provided background on spec he wants reviewed
<fesch> Doug: wants to ensure description is computed correctly and covers all cases
<fesch> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2014Dec/0009.html
<richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: I do want to start on the taxonomy that is in the email in that link
<richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: I have 2 agenda items today which is to walk through through the strawman as as starting point and see where we want to go next. ..
<richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: we need to decide on the additional taxonomies. We need to talk about data interaction. We need to get all of us at a high level to agree on what the basic components of the taxonomy are.
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2014Dec/att-0009/taxonomy-IBM.html
<richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: there is a reference from the ACM journals that describe graphics as to how they classify them.
<richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: if there is other research we need to look at I am happy to work with them
<richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: anyone doing literature searches in this area I am interested in talking to
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: he is going to send the name of the publication to the group as it is copyrighted
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we strongly avoid referencing things that is not openly available to w3c spec.
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I won’t access things that are beyond the pay wall.
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: IBM has access to some of them.
<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: let’s take a look at the proposal that has been put up.
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: this taxonomy is grouped hirarchically
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the first role is a connector which seems to map well to the SVG connector
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: a leader line is something that links a label to an object in a diagram. … like an eye chart.
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I agree that is not a connector
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: when I discussed SVG connectors this was the concept.
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think we should have a connector role
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: it should be implicit in the connector element. In case someone wants to do something with a connector role without using the connector spec. they should be able to do that.
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the one thing I am concerned about is spending 5 minutes on each item. I want tor try to get all of these today
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the next is a contour. It is a polygine. It is a line of equal. One contour has the same value.
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: for us to reasonably talk about them we need a set of standard defintions.
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: agree
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: a contour is a topographic map line with properties having the same value such as an elevation. They can be called isobars as an example
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: like temperature
<richardschwerdtfeger> event: I got this out of timelines
<richardschwerdtfeger> event: is something that is confined on a time line.
<richardschwerdtfeger> rich: an event needs to be in the context of something so that it will make sense.
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: for example an axis item or a legend item.
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: for now I will leave it out in definitions as it appears redundant
<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: it could be a subrole
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I have seen charts for something else. Such as an industrial process where we are monitoring something.
<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: like between t1 and t2
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: so where we are continuously montioring something
<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: for someone who is not familiar with that type of diagram they want to know how things are represented.
<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: we certainly need a system that in its firs version or extensions that define the high level concepts where we can define the high level meaning of things
<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: In an SVG diagram with formerly defined semantics it is the user who defines which components of that content they want to take
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I don’t think that we should take up the visual aspect of this. That should be a separate topic.
<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: that is a good example of the issue
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think the whole visual description is an entirely separate topic
<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: the geometrical concepts can lead to this
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: let’s try to defer for now
<richardschwerdtfeger> rich: we have group in the ARIA spec.
<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: perhaps datagroup role to be distinct from the aria group role
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: an item represents a single thing. It could be a single point in a scatter plot. If you are familiar with a box with whisker chart.
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: it only means that it is a unique data item vs. a graphical object
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: when I did my chart I put axis and legend items … i felt something like that to be an item but I looked at your item as a datapoint
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: it think we are conflating data points and items
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: do you think that having the distinction between items as distinction between datapoints
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I think that data is different that points in an axis
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: yes
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I will let you finish. I think different types of items are important
<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: we can introduce abstract roles where we want to to classify concepts
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I took this out of statistical charts and maps
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: thes are things that are not data directly
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: there are two groups within
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I see these as labels
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: under these we have label, note, and title
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the only distinction between notes and titles is that notes don’t have particular meeting or location specific featues.
<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: how would a legend be handled?
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I have a scale group
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: unde scape group I have axis, demnsion line, graticule (they curve), grid, legend, and scale
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: then we have a symble which is a wind direction, … etcs.
<richardschwerdtfeger> cd/etcs/etc/
<richardschwerdtfeger> this is different from guide group
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I don’t understand the distinction between label and title
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: most of the other stuff looks good
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: rather than scale I would use facet
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: they are different
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I would speparate them out and use facet
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: Amelia likes dimensions
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: facet is not in dimension space
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the only pushback on using facet vs. scale is I would like to match domains people commonly use
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: this is what I use for economics visualizations
<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: I think it is entirely reasonable but the more high level comments we have we should describe them.
<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: I don’t do data visualization. so I need very clear understanding of this
<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: we need real clarity
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think that you will find that the literature uses wildly different terms.
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think you agree bar charts can be horizontal and vertical
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: some people insist bar charts can be vertical where other people have a different trem for horizontal bar charts
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we are going to try to build a higher level thing
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we don’t want to slavishly follow existing literature
<fesch> rich: we have a note role in aria today
<fesch> rich: is it too early to try and write an aria spec?
<richardschwerdtfeger> rich: or write some definitions
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: we can map these as a second step
<richardschwerdtfeger> rich: I am basically referring to an aria format
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: fred came at it from a higher level of abstraction and perhaps more exhaustive
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: fred looked at it from a taxonomy so that we understand the space more
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I don’t know that these are all roles
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I would like to see fred define his terminology and then I define mine
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: perhaps one more exercise in defining things and then we go to a spec.
<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: Fred will create definitions for the next meeting [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/01/09-aria-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1552 - Will create definitions for the next meeting [on Fred Esch - due 2015-01-16].
<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: Doug create definitions for his taxonomy [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/01/09-aria-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Error finding 'Doug'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: shepazu create definitions for his taxonomy [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/01/09-aria-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Error finding 'shepazu'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I have one more question on symbols. You put them outside. I think that is perfectly valid. I had thought that you were talking about legend symbols
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we need to make a distinction between what you have and what is in a legend
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: for lack of something better I will write a definition
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: this is where things are laid out on the paper
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I have seen these in blueprints and technical drawings
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: in some domains they appear to have meaning
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I had done interactive circuit diagrams and facility diagrams
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think we need to get the guys from Boeing here
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: that is it
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: next time will have definitions and will go through doug’s diagrams
<richardschwerdtfeger> rich: text at bottom:
<richardschwerdtfeger> Legend of Graphics Types
<richardschwerdtfeger> G Graph (statistical chart)
<richardschwerdtfeger> M Map
<richardschwerdtfeger> B Blueprint/Technical drawing
<richardschwerdtfeger> T Time line
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think this task force should discuss taxonomies. We should have one telecon talking about what the taxonomy is for and the details of the spec.
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I don’t want the the svg working group to go around in ignorance of what is being done and why
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I don’t want us isolated
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I would like us to discuss with them what aria is and why
<richardschwerdtfeger> rich: we need to have a way to get at the specific taxonomy
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: for legend - we might want some thinking about how a legend is differentiating different items on the chart. … for all the blue items and all diamonds, etc.
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we should not avoid this
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I have thought a lot about the geometry and how we should deal with it.
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: i disagree with that. they need to have the data value
<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: both the details and geometry is important
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I am not in complete agreement here
<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: before we do that I think we need to see how it is exposed to AT.
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: legends is a gnarley area for sure.
<richardschwerdtfeger> rich: this is the first time to ever tackle this
<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I have a masters in mapping
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found Scribe: Rich Found ScribeNick: Rich WARNING: No scribe lines found matching ScribeNick pattern: <Rich> ... WARNING: 0 scribe lines found (out of 186 total lines.) Are you sure you specified a correct ScribeNick? WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: Amy Jason Tav aria doug event fesch fred jcraig jcraig_ joined left newtron rich richardschwerdtfeger scribenick shepazu trackbot You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy Found Date: 09 Jan 2015 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/01/09-aria-minutes.html People with action items: doug fred shepazu[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]