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13:59:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/01/09-aria-irc
13:59:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
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13:59:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
13:59:10 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
13:59:11 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
13:59:11 <trackbot> Date: 09 January 2015
13:59:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Fred and Rich
13:59:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C SVG Accessibility Task Force
13:59:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
14:01:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Fred
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14:05:57 <fesch> scribe:Rich
14:05:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribenick: Rich
14:06:43 <shepazu> q+
14:07:52 <fesch> ack shepazu
14:08:20 <fesch> TOPIC: SVG mapping spec needs review
14:08:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html
14:08:53 <fesch> Rich: Wants svg mapping spec reviewed, but wants a couple of weeks to update before review
14:11:54 <fesch> Rich: provided background on spec he wants reviewed
14:17:48 <fesch> Doug: wants to ensure description is computed correctly and covers all cases
14:18:25 <fesch> TOPIC: Taxonomy Straw man walk through
14:18:47 <fesch> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2014Dec/0009.html
14:18:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: I do want to start on the taxonomy that is in the email in that link
14:19:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: I have 2 agenda items today which is to walk through through the strawman as as starting point and see where we want to go next. ..
14:20:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: we need to decide on the additional taxonomies. We need to talk about data interaction. We need to get all of us at a high level to agree on what the basic components of the taxonomy are.
14:20:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2014Dec/att-0009/taxonomy-IBM.html
14:21:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: there is a reference from the ACM journals that describe graphics as to how they classify them.
14:21:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: if there is other research we need to look at I am happy to work with them
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14:22:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: anyone doing literature searches in this area I am interested in talking to
14:22:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: he is going to send the name of the publication to the group as it is copyrighted
14:22:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we strongly avoid referencing things that is not openly available to w3c spec.
14:22:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I won’t access things that are beyond the pay wall.
14:23:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: IBM has access to some of them.
14:23:17 <shepazu> q+q+
14:23:20 <shepazu> q+
14:23:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: let’s take a look at the proposal that has been put up.
14:23:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: this taxonomy is grouped hirarchically
14:24:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the first role is a connector which seems to map well to the SVG connector
14:24:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: a leader line is something that links a label to an object in a diagram. … like an eye chart.
14:24:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I agree that is not a connector
14:25:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: when I discussed SVG connectors this was the concept.
14:25:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think we should have a connector role
14:26:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: it should be implicit in the connector element. In case someone wants to do something with a connector role without using the connector spec. they should be able to do that.
14:26:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the one thing I am concerned about is spending 5 minutes on each item. I want tor try to get all of these today
14:27:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the next is a contour. It is a polygine. It is a line of equal. One contour has the same value.
14:27:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: for us to reasonably talk about them we need a set of standard defintions.
14:27:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: agree
14:28:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: a contour is a topographic map line with properties having the same value such as an elevation. They can be called isobars as an example
14:28:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: like temperature
14:29:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> event: I got this out of timelines
14:29:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> event: is something that is confined on a time line.
14:30:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: an event needs to be in the context of something so that it will make sense.
14:30:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: for example an axis item or a legend item.
14:30:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: for now I will leave it out in definitions as it appears redundant
14:31:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: it could be a subrole
14:31:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I have seen charts for something else. Such as  an industrial process where we are monitoring something.
14:31:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: like between t1 and t2
14:32:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: so where we are continuously montioring something
14:32:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: for someone who is not familiar with that type of diagram they want to know  how things are represented.
14:32:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: we certainly need a system that in its firs version or extensions that define the high level concepts where we can define the high level meaning of things
14:33:11 <shepazu> q+
14:33:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: In an SVG diagram with formerly defined semantics it is the user who defines which components of that content they want to take
14:33:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack shepazu
14:34:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I don’t think that we should take up the visual aspect of this. That should be a separate topic.
14:34:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: that is a good example of the issue
14:34:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think the whole visual description is an entirely separate topic
14:35:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: the geometrical concepts can lead to this
14:35:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: let’s try to defer for now
14:35:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: Group type or role
14:35:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: we have group in the ARIA spec.
14:36:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: perhaps datagroup role to be distinct from the aria group role
14:36:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: Item role/type
14:37:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: an item represents a single thing. It could be a single point in a scatter plot. If you are familiar with a box with whisker chart.
14:37:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: it only means that it is a unique data item vs. a graphical object
14:38:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: when I did my chart I put axis and legend items … i felt something like that to be an item but I looked at your item as a datapoint
14:38:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: it think we are conflating data points and items
14:38:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: do you think that having the distinction between items as distinction between datapoints
14:39:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I think that data is different that points in an axis
14:39:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: yes
14:39:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I will let you finish. I think different types of items are important
14:39:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:39:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: we can introduce abstract roles where we want to to classify concepts
14:40:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> topic: guide group
14:40:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I took this out of statistical charts and maps
14:40:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: thes are things that are not data directly
14:40:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: there are two groups within
14:41:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: annotation Group
14:41:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I see these as labels
14:41:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: under these we have label, note, and title
14:42:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the only distinction between notes and titles is that notes don’t have particular meeting or location specific featues.
14:42:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: how would a legend be handled?
14:42:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I have a scale group
14:42:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: Scale Group
14:42:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: unde scape group I have axis, demnsion line, graticule (they curve), grid, legend, and scale
14:43:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: then we have a symble which is a wind direction, … etcs.
14:43:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> cd/etcs/etc/
14:43:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: region group
14:43:41 <shepazu> q+
14:43:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> this is different from guide group
14:43:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack shepazu
14:44:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I don’t understand the distinction between label and title
14:44:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: most of the other stuff looks good
14:44:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: rather than scale I would use facet
14:44:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: they are different
14:45:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I would speparate them out and use facet
14:45:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: Amelia likes dimensions
14:45:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: facet is not in dimension space
14:45:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the only pushback on using facet vs. scale is I would like to match domains people commonly use
14:45:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: this is what I use for economics visualizations
14:45:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:46:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: I think it is entirely reasonable but the more high level comments we have we should describe them.
14:46:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: I don’t do data visualization. so I need very clear understanding of this
14:47:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: we need real clarity
14:47:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
14:47:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think that you will find that the literature uses wildly different terms.
14:47:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think you agree bar charts can be horizontal and vertical
14:48:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: some people insist bar charts can be vertical where other people have a different trem for horizontal bar charts
14:48:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we are going to try to build a higher level thing
14:48:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we don’t want to slavishly follow existing literature
14:49:25 <fesch> rich: we have a note role in aria today
14:49:50 <fesch> rich: is it too early to try and write an aria spec?
14:50:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: or write some definitions
14:50:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: we can map these as a second step
14:51:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: I am basically referring to an aria format
14:52:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: fred came at it from a higher level of abstraction and perhaps more exhaustive
14:53:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: fred looked at it from a taxonomy so that we understand the space more
14:53:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I don’t know that these are all roles
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14:54:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I would like to see fred define his terminology and then I define mine
14:54:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: perhaps one more exercise in defining things and then we go to a spec.
14:55:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Fred will create definitions for the next meeting
14:55:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1552 - Will create definitions for the next meeting [on Fred Esch - due 2015-01-16].
14:55:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Doug create definitions for his taxonomy
14:55:35 <trackbot> Error finding 'Doug'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
14:55:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: shepazu create definitions for his taxonomy
14:55:54 <trackbot> Error finding 'shepazu'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
14:57:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I have one more question on symbols. You put them outside. I think that is perfectly valid. I had thought that you were talking about legend symbols
14:57:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we need to make a distinction between what you have and what is in a legend
14:58:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: for lack of something better I will write a definition
14:58:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: region group
14:58:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: this is where things are laid out on the paper
14:58:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I have seen these in blueprints and technical drawings
14:59:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: in some domains they appear to have meaning
14:59:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:59:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/09-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
14:59:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I had done interactive circuit diagrams and facility diagrams
14:59:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think we need to get the guys from Boeing here
15:00:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: that is it
15:00:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: next time will have definitions and will go through doug’s diagrams
15:02:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: text at bottom:
15:02:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> Legend of Graphics Types
15:02:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> G Graph (statistical chart)
15:02:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> M Map
15:02:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> B Blueprint/Technical drawing
15:02:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> T Time line
15:03:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think this task force should discuss taxonomies. We should have one telecon talking about what the taxonomy is for and the details of the spec.
15:04:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I don’t want the  the svg working group to go around in ignorance of what is being done and why
15:04:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I don’t want us isolated
15:04:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I would like us to discuss with them what aria is and why
15:05:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: we need to have a way to get at the specific taxonomy
15:06:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: for legend - we might want some thinking about how a legend is differentiating different items on the chart. … for all the blue items and all diamonds, etc.
15:07:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we should not avoid this
15:07:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I have thought a lot about the geometry and how we should deal with it.
15:08:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: i disagree with that. they need to have the data value
15:08:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: both the details and geometry is important
15:08:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I am not in complete agreement here
15:09:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: before we do that I think we need to see how it is exposed to AT.
15:09:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: legends is a gnarley area for sure.
15:09:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: this is the first time to ever tackle this
15:11:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I have a masters in mapping
15:11:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, bye
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15:11:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:11:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/09-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
15:12:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
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