W3C

- DRAFT -

Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

14 Oct 2014

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
+1.617.766.aaaa, AWK, Michael_Cooper, Bruce_Bailey, EricE, David_MacDonald, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Kenny, Joshue, Marc_Johlic, Loretta
Regrets
Mike_E, Jon_A, James_N, Kathy_W
Chair
Joshue
Scribe
Bruce

Contents


<trackbot> Date: 14 October 2014

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/14thOct2014/

<AWK> meeting: WCAG Working Group Teleconference

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/14thOct2014/

<MichaelC> agenda order 1,7,2

<scribe> scribe: Bruce

<MichaelC> scribeNick: bbailey

Finish survey from last week

Couple things from last week before next survey

<Joshue> Mobile TF proposed changes to G78

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/G78

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20141007Misc/results#xg202edit

Discussed last week, did not close

G78

6. Mobile TF proposed changes to G202

https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/G202

See new text step in wiki

thanks to jon availl

https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/G78

Earlier text script was a little wordy

Jon made pithy and added example

KHR asks question about players that don't look like player, but response resolves this

RESOLUTION: Accept G78 as amended

AWK / MC : wiki may be having problems

Bruce sharded problem with WBS home page

MC reports problems only sporatic,

we continue

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/G202

<Joshue> Mobile TF proposed changes to G202

G202

https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20141007Misc/results#xg202edit

Reviewing survey responses

Discuss that some tone in proposed response may be harsh

MC has proposed change to remove combative phrase

AWK suggest linking to definition of keyboard interface

RESOLUTION: Accept G202 as amended

Wiki login issues continues, so Micheal Cooper having to do the labor...

Discussion of keyboard functionality versus keyboard control

Discussion if test script as written is explicit enough wrt keyboard

MC concerned that example is too leading for test proceedure

There are many examples for keyboard interface, not specific to mobile, so no compelling reason to scope to mobile

Emphasizing one example in test procedure may give it too much emphasis

Discuss removing example from test procedure, information is in body of technique

Reviewing text and MC suggested edit

Accept edit to test procedure, removing example

Return to discussion of Note

David concerned with “does not necessarily mean that each of the individual controls can be used from the keyboard”

Note is already in place, was not suggested for change

Loretta recalls that keyboard shortcut might be available for control that is not directly keyboard operable

Requirement is for keyboard functionality, not that each control be keyboard accessible per se

Example of keyboard shortcut for bold, rather than tabbing to a bold button

AWK gives example of mouse-only click for video play, but may be other keyboard means for triggering video

David concurs that being able to do functionality from keyboard is different than each control from keyboard.

David volunteers to bring this back for more discussion, add clarity

<scribe> ACTION: David to file issue on G202 regarding language distinguishing functionality from control and clarify necessity of keyboard accessibilty [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/14-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-284 - File issue on g202 regarding language distinguishing functionality from control and clarify necessity of keyboard accessibilty [on David MacDonald - due 2014-10-21].

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/G9

G9

Joshue: recaps from last week, don't want to work this too much this week

KHS speaks to keeping phrasing

Discussion is around Exampl 2

Proposed is: Example 2: A user watches an online seminar on their mobile device, including captioning provided through the use of Communication Access Real-time Translation (CART). The captions provided also benefit in-person participants who need captioning and can view the information on their own device.

<Joshue> Example 2: A user watches an online seminar on their mobile device, including captioning provided through the use of Communication Access Real-time Translation (CART). The captions provided also benefit in-person participants who need captioning and can view the information on their own device.

RESOLUTION: Accept Example 2 on G9

Eric Eggert will join the call for a brief discussion on WCAG feedback on the WAI-DEV tutorials.

Eric talks about WAI-ACT tutorials

Eric has lead for editorial work, really appreciates the feedback so far

<yatil> https://github.com/w3c/wai-tutorials/labels/%E2%9C%97

Two open issues, pretty quick

<yatil> https://github.com/w3c/wai-tutorials/issues/124

Topic is Change color contrast for placeholders?

Is this a browser or should we address in tutorials?

<AWK> Contrast: https://github.com/w3c/wai-tutorials/pull/145/files?diff=split

Other issue (carousel) is probably more straightforward

<yatil> Particular line: https://github.com/w3c/wai-tutorials/pull/145/files?diff=split#diff-c9c21451eb33fff0fb847235af4bebe8L228

KHR: definitely an issue

Joshue: Placeholder text came up on calls before

We don't have current technique specific to placeholder

David thinks instructions below form are pretty well addressed

ARIA-described-by provides sufficient pointer

Issue is more with prompts like mm/dd/yyyy

<Joshue> https://github.com/w3c/wai-tutorials/issues/124

<yatil> http://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/forms/instructions/#placeholder-text

David points out problem is more like prompts like mm/dd/yyyy

Joshue asks if Eric might take lead with tutorials

Eric points out that browsers do not honor contrast setting for place holder text

Can or should we make this a browser issue?

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_@placeholder_on_input

One approach is for page authors to specify foreground and background color on placeholder text

Joshue points out that more attention seems to be given from authors on placeholder attributes

AKW comments that he likes proposed text

Example we provide should have good contrast, so do we provide CSS code that does this?

Or do we say this is UA / browser issue?

Joshue thinks we have a fine line to walk on this.

AWK reminds that recent response was that it would be nice if browsers handled this, but for now author has to supply as matter of practice

KHR likes that we provide example, link back to related techniques

Authors are having difficulty with the issue, and end-user with low vision having problems reading placeholder text

Katie thinks this is an important issue, we want browsers to change, but have to provide work-around in meantime

Would be a mistake to pass on the opportunity.

David gives hypothetical example that this might already come down to accessibility supported

If one browser provide sufficient contrast, but that's not the end-users preferred browser, is this still a wcag contrast requirement or not?

Joshue also thinks this ties back to UAAG

When using a UAAG conforming browser, issue may be addressed.

AWK points out that accessibility support is theoretical future problem as all browsers do poorly with placeholder text

<Ryladog> q

<Ryladog> +

Response for now has to be providing examples of good contrast for place holder text

AWK points out for tutorial we should be providing

<David> UAAG #4 Optional Settings: Throughout UAAG 2.0, all required behaviors may be provided as optional preference settings unless a success criterion explicitly says otherwise. For example, if a success criterion requires high contrast between foreground text and its background, the user agent may also provide choices with low contrast. While it is preferred to have a required behavior as a...

KHR need good user agent notes

<David> ...default option, it does not need to be, unless the success criterion explicitly says otherwise.

Joshue thanks Eric for flagging, need to address in techniques. Katie volunteer to help or review

<yatil> https://github.com/w3c/wai-tutorials/issues/163

<AWK> https://github.com/w3c/wai-tutorials/issues/163

<scribe> ACTION: yatil to work with Katie on providing example with CSS providing sufficient contrast for placeholder text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/14-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Error finding 'yatil'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/users>.

<scribe> ACTION: Ryladog to work with Eric on providing example with CSS providing sufficient contrast for placeholder text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/14-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Error finding 'Ryladog'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/users>.

<scribe> ACTION: Katieto work with Eric on providing example with CSS providing sufficient contrast for placeholder text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/14-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Error finding 'Katieto'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/users>.

<scribe> ACTION: Katie to work with Eric on providing example with CSS providing sufficient contrast for placeholder text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/14-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-285 - Work with eric on providing example with css providing sufficient contrast for placeholder text [on Katie Haritos-Shea - due 2014-10-21].

Carousel interaction #163

Eric describes problem with using ARIA live regions

Eric asks if technique is okay as is, or do we need to expect additional work-around?

David discusses that behavior is not too unusual for experienced screen reader user, but instruction or prompt really is needed before encountering.

Joshue points out that any way to escape, get around, or ignore carousel for keyboard users should be okay.

Joshue asks if anyone has issue with what Eric has so far.

No objections. David suggest providing some addition links,.

Joshue points out that screen reader behavior can vary quite a lot from platform to platform

David comments that we don't want to imply that way we address carousel makes them a solved problem

Will need to emphasize that this is one solution, not only solution

All thank Eric

Finish survey from last week

Technique needed for CSS and alt text for generated content: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/542

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/542

Joshue and AKW note that we are not resolving this now

<AWK> e.g. <div style="content: url(icon.png), attr(data-fallback);" data-fallback="Bar">Foo</div>

<scribe> ACTION: David to work on technique for issue 542 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/14-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-286 - Work on technique for issue 542 [on David MacDonald - due 2014-10-21].

<Joshue> ISSUE-542: David Mac D to work on it

<trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-542 .

<Joshue> ACTION-274

<trackbot> ACTION-274 -- Katie Haritos-Shea to Review description for g4 to ensure that keyboard interface support is included. -- due 2014-09-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/274

Discuss Action 274 and Mobile TF feedback

Follow up on Aside technique

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_the_aside_element_to_indicate_tangentially_related_content

Recall status?

A

AWK recalls that David and Jon Avilla working on

Technique was post-pone from recent pub

<scribe> ACTION: David to follow-up on aside technique [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/14-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-287 - Follow-up on aside technique [on David MacDonald - due 2014-10-21].

<Joshue> ACTION-287: David MacD to review https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_the_aside_element_to_indicate_tangentially_related_content

<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-287 Follow-up on aside technique.

Action 274

<Joshue> ACTION-274

<trackbot> ACTION-274 -- Katie Haritos-Shea to Review description for g4 to ensure that keyboard interface support is included. -- due 2014-09-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/274

<AWK> "We also discussed the proposed changes to G4. The taskforce feels that no change is required and doing so would “muddy the waters”. If the WCAG working group feels that the change is necessary, we would like this revisited to align with the keyboard language coming from the taskforce so that we have consistency and keep the techniques in synch."

<AWK> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/274

AWK review changes

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G4.html

Review description for g4 to ensure that keyboard interface support is included.

https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/G4

We asked mobile task force for feed back

KHR reported that she discussed with Kathy, ties back to earlier issue discussed on this call with regard to keyboard support

Mobile group pushed back from what KHR and Kathy though was okay.

AWK summaries status, we need to decide if we are changing G4

Do we like having additional text?

It is good to remind people that keyboard access is required -- but keyboard access is not specifically a related technique for G4

AKW summarize issue is balance of being verbose versus being complete

AKW points out that other SC are also required even when not specially mentioned

<AWK> Another option: reduce description to "The objective of this technique is to provide a way to pause movement or scrolling of content. If the user needs to pause the movement, to reduce distraction or to have time to read it, they can do so, and then restart it as needed."

Loretta points out that the issue of keyboard access come up a lot, but this technique is not especially particular to the issue

If each technique linked to everything, the techniques would get lost

<Joshue> +1 to Loretta also

Lots and lots of techniques could related to keyboard accessible

AWK observes that loading up each technique with valuable accurate and helpful information makes them hard to read

Might want to focus on main topic, rely on examples that include keyboard access

Joshue concise techniques more valuable than muddying them up with related issues

Discussion seems to be that shorter is better

David opens discussion for how to link to other things to look out for

<AWK> AWK to offer possible changes to G4 per discussion on ACTION-274

If a person comes to a particular technique, how do they get back to big picture that includes keyboard accessilbity?

<AWK> ACTION-274: AWK to offer possible changes to G4 per discussion

<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-274 Review description for g4 to ensure that keyboard interface support is included..

<AWK> ACTION-274: on AWK

<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-274 Review description for g4 to ensure that keyboard interface support is included..

<Joshue> zaki, agenda?

TPAC Planning: Current TPAC structure and other ideas.

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/14thOct2014/

trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: David to file issue on G202 regarding language distinguishing functionality from control and clarify necessity of keyboard accessibilty [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/14-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: David to follow-up on aside technique [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/14-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: David to work on technique for issue 542 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/14-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Katie to work with Eric on providing example with CSS providing sufficient contrast for placeholder text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/14-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Katieto work with Eric on providing example with CSS providing sufficient contrast for placeholder text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/14-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Ryladog to work with Eric on providing example with CSS providing sufficient contrast for placeholder text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/14-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: yatil to work with Katie on providing example with CSS providing sufficient contrast for placeholder text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/14-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action02]
 
[End of minutes]

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Default Present: +1.617.766.aaaa, AWK, Michael_Cooper, Bruce_Bailey, EricE, David_MacDonald, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Kenny, Joshue, Marc_Johlic, Loretta
Present: +1.617.766.aaaa AWK Michael_Cooper Bruce_Bailey EricE David_MacDonald Katie_Haritos-Shea Kenny Joshue Marc_Johlic Loretta

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Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2014OctDec/0050.html
Found Date: 14 Oct 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/10/14-wai-wcag-minutes.html
People with action items: david katie katieto ryladog yatil

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