W3C

- DRAFT -

Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

08 Jul 2014

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Joshue, David_MacDonald, +1.617.766.aaaa, Sailesh_Panchang, Bruce_Bailey, Michael_Cooper, Kenny, Andrew_Kirkpatrick, +1.571.389.aabb, jon_avila, Loretta, Kathy_Wahlbin, Marc_Johlic, shadi, Katie_Haritos-Shea, James_Nurthen, +1.727.480.aacc, Cooper
Regrets
Kathleen
Chair
Joshue
Scribe
bruce, bbailey

Contents


<trackbot> Date: 08 July 2014

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/24June2014/results

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SC1_2_1_July2014/

<Joshue> EO proposal for LC-2895 and an update on the RWD/Progressive Enhancement technique from Alistair

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/9thJuly2014/

<AWK> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List

Actions and Issues check-in:

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open

<bbailey> scribe: bruce

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues

<bbailey> List of action items geeting longer

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open

<MichaelC> scribe: bbailey

Bruce confirmed that no update on 508 NPRM

Next likely opportunity is Board Meeting on 8 September

MC, Josh discuss methodology for picking up action items

Joshue preference is start on newest ones because they can be quick

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/118

sort by date

date sort is by due, not created

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/261

AWK will be working on 118, work in progress

<Loretta> Clean-up suggestion: review all action item assigned to people who are no longer (active) member of the WG and either close them or reassign them.

Kathy added comments to 261

Added some data to action, not issue

MC: need to figure out how to trigger action

Chairs to look at issues

<scribe> ACTION: close 261 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Error finding 'close'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/users>.

<MichaelC> close action-261

<trackbot> Closed action-261.

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/260

Kathleen not on call, no notes, leave open

<MichaelC> action-260?

<trackbot> action-260 -- Kathleen Anderson to Look into issue 11 kathleen -- due 2014-06-10 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/260

<Joshue> Leave open

<Joshue> action-259?

<trackbot> action-259 -- Kathleen Anderson to To look into issue-11 -- due 2014-06-10 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/259

<Joshue> close action-259

<trackbot> Closed action-259.

mc: 259 redundant

<Joshue> action-256?

<trackbot> action-256 -- Andrew Kirkpatrick to Find out when h80 became advisory -- due 2014-05-13 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/256

Joshuea: 256 on AWK

AWK: still working on it

<Joshue> action-256: AWK to work on it

<trackbot> Notes added to action-256 Find out when h80 became advisory.

Discuss purpose of 256, try to recolect

MC: reminds us to add detail to action
... ask to keep open

awk: will dig in more

<Joshue> action-255?

<trackbot> action-255 -- Jonathan Avila to Will suggest a text change for aria7 at a later time -- due 2014-04-29 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/255

salish: insert plus t creates heading, insert overloaded as key like ctrl or alt

insert-t gives context of heading in JAWS

<MichaelC> action-255?

<trackbot> action-255 -- Jonathan Avila to Will suggest a text change for aria7 at a later time -- due 2014-04-29 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/255

Jon A; update status

Jon: wrt related issue, initiated off-list email to chairs

mc: issues is not currently tied to action

awk: action 17 ?

<MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-255 with issue-17

<trackbot> action-255 (Will suggest a text change for aria7 at a later time) associated with issue-17.

<Joshue> action-255: Jon made an issue for this item 17 with a recommendation, discussed on the list etc

<trackbot> Notes added to action-255 Will suggest a text change for aria7 at a later time.

mc: trackbot has syntax for associating actions with issues

<Joshue> action-255: Chairs have been updated

<trackbot> Notes added to action-255 Will suggest a text change for aria7 at a later time.

mc: recommend sending emails to list, not just chairs

Jon: message did get to list, conclusion was that issue redundant
... email may 27

awk: issue 20 ?

jon: no, offer to forward email to list. MC: not finding email on list
... will reforward prosal to list

mc: put action or issue number in subject line
... tracker will pickup posts to lists automatically
... tracker monitors wg lists

<Joshue> action-252?

<trackbot> action-252 -- Wilco Fiers to Investigate accessibility support for h53 -- due 2014-04-15 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/252

mc: adds links from wg lists if it spots issues or action numbers

<Joshue> action-252: Leave open

<trackbot> Notes added to action-252 Investigate accessibility support for h53.

wilco not on call, will leave open

Issue is use of terms per EO

AWK thinks resolved

<Joshue> close action item 250

<Joshue> close action-250

<trackbot> Closed action-250.

<Joshue> close action-251

<trackbot> Closed action-251.

action-249?

<trackbot> action-249 -- Joshue O Connor to Update technique f24 as proposed -- due 2014-04-08 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/249

mc: need to get better on contualizing actions

<Joshue> Leave open

action-249: leave open

<trackbot> Notes added to action-249 Update technique f24 as proposed.

<MichaelC> action-249: http://www.w3.org/2014/04/01-wai-wcag-minutes

<trackbot> Notes added to action-249 Update technique f24 as proposed.

awk: enough actions for now...

taking up issues

Update on Mobile A11y TF progress from Kathy

Final pass to resolve any remaining comments on WCAG-EM pre publication.

shadi briefing wg

<shadi> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2014JulSep/0006.html

followup from call a couple weeks ago

evaluation methodology

survey opened to GL and ERT working group and people who made comments

Disposition of all comments, and how addressed in email

Erik Velleman also involved, but not on call today

About 46 comments previously, 16-17 commenters

most editorial, ~30

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20140704

No blocking comments, characterize as editorial

Requesting approval of "final final" editorial draft

editorial changes for clarification, combine some paragraphs

Clarified in 3D about random samples

<scribe> Dropped reference to FAQ

Just pointed to understanding document instead

Clarified discussion wrt metrics and scoring

address all comments and request confirmation approval from group

have heard back affirmative from some commenters

looking for group affirmation

David approves his comments

Joshue calls for approval as WG note

no objections

RESOLUTION: WG approves note and publication

much applause and appreciation

leave accessibility db for next week

joshue thanks shadi

Continue with Success Criteria walkthrough:

<AWK> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/24June2014/results

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/24June2014/results

Will be recollecting memory as standing agenda item

Joshue: some good comments, looking for more feedback

what you like, didn't like, what do you remember

awk: related to 1.1.1 people get lost in long list
... confusable terms, captcha is a kind of test
... tests have controls and inputs
... would prefer to elimiat special case of decorative, invisible, etc.
... whole thing seems heavy. How might we simplify?

<Joshue> BB: It seems like it is inconsistent that 1.3.1 is so different from 1.1.1 - its like with 1.1.1 we listed all the cases and we did - we need to unify the approach

david m: confussion in decorative and purely decrative

dm: need more guidence between cases
... alt="" is over used
... definition of purely decorative is pretty strict

Joshue: experts resonably disagree about when alt="" is appropriate

dm: does not like failing photographs that don't meet wcag definition for "pure decoration" when they have alt=""
... would like for wg members to have more agreement about when alt="" is okay

lgr: sweeping sc might or might not work as well as categories

joshue: will take multiple passes to find way to improve

lgr: captcha is there because wg did not feel we could exclude or rule out captchas

joshue: captcha issue is still significant, but some improvements are live

lgr: need to document more techniques

joshue: looking for voluteer to lead

kathy and david would be willing to help

joshue will contribute too

joshue suggest starting page on wiki

<scribe> ACTION: David to open wiki page for captcha [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-264 - Open wiki page for captcha [on David MacDonald - due 2014-07-15].

joshue: feels like captcha is a bit of pass

New SC Walkthrough Survey:

<AWK> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SC1_2_1_July2014/

https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SC1_2_1_July2014/results

lgr: see comments, phrasing awkward

bruce concurs

lgr: overlaps with 1.1.1
... might be better to tie them together

Final pass to resolve any remaining comments on WCAG-EM pre publication.

joshue: please add comments to survey, open until tomorrow

Comments needing responses https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comments_Needing_Responses

Joshue, leaving accessiblity DB for next week

Call for volunteers on itemes needing response

No volunteers at moment...

Chair discuss w/ MC protocol for pressing volunteers...

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140306/2939

MC: Can dismiss, but don't want to

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20140306/

These are public comments, we cannot really just ignore

MC: People that initiate question should not take lead for response

Disuss isse 2939, is this a real issue?

Is it particular to HTML 5?

Commenter asks about guidence for registration and trademark

Discuss around "equivalent purpose"

Is RM or TM necessary?

Joshue: Preference to leave to author

David_M: Comes from internal discussions at commenters office

DM: We don't provide specific guidence in other contexts, so why does WG have to decide for TM/RM?

<Ryladog> +1

AWK: Content author should investigate and decide practice

Salish: Discussion on RM applies to other text that might be repeated on site

Joshue suggests text for reply

Joshue: The working group discussed this and it is largely at the discretion of the content owner how they wish to approach this, the onus is on the owner to do so.

AWK: delete "largely"

<jamesn> http://www.oracle.com/index.html

James: sometimes symbols are abstract

<Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say that often the "logo designer" has deliberately "obscured" the R symbol

awk: can we resolve on call or are we making assignement?

DM: add that this is beyond scope of WG

<AWK> How about: Thank you for your comment. The working group discussed this and feels it is at the discretion of the content owner what text they feel is appropriate to serve as an equivalent for an image, including images which include trademarks, service marks, or other symbols.

joshue: prefers his terse proposal

DM: likes andrews response

<Ryladog> +1 to AWK response

DM: null alt would be problematic in this case

<Joshue> +1 also its better

DM: our definition provide alot of room

<Loretta> There are circumstances when it would be appropriate to include the trademark information and other circumstances where it would not be necessary.

Katie: should include reference back to wcag defintion

<AWK> We are discussing https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20140306/2938

<David> How about: Thank you for your comment. The working group discussed this and feels it is at the discretion of the content owner what text they feel is appropriate to serve as an equivalent for an image within the context of the WCAG definition of Equivelent Purporse., including images which include trademarks, service marks, or other symbols.

salish: everything we discuss in context of wcag, so thats pretty clearly implied

awk and david discuss edits

lgr: may want to add that we do not have yes/no anwers to question

awk: adds sentence addressing lgr suggestion

working on edit live, lc tracker not being very responsive

discuss exact phrasing...

<AWK> There are undoubtedly circumstances when it would be appropriate to include specific information about a symbol and other circumstances where it would not be necessary, but it is up to the content owner to investigate any legal or other requirements and evaluate the appropriate course of action.

salish: suggest "context specific"

discuss "appropriate couse of action"

<David> There are undoubtedly circumstances when it would be appropriate to include specific information about a symbol and other circumstances where it would not be necessary, but it is up to the content owner to investigate any legal or other requirements and evaluate the appropriate interpretation of Equivalent Purpose.

<AWK> Thank you for your comment. The working group discussed this and feels it is at the discretion of the content owner what text they feel is appropriate to serve the equivalent purpose for an image, including images which include trademarks, service marks, or other symbols.

<AWK> There are undoubtedly circumstances when it would be appropriate to include specific information about a symbol and other circumstances where it would not be necessary, but it is up to the content owner to investigate any legal or other requirements and evaluate the appropriate interpretation of equivalent purpose.

awk: if we agree, accept edit as propose, but not accept commenters concern

People report having some problems with connectivity...

<jamesn> +1

AWK: reads his edit aloud

<scribe> ACTION: Accept 2938 as proposed [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Error finding 'Accept'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/users>.

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20140306/

<jon_avila> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140306/2939

https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20140306/2939

RESOLUTION: Accept 2938 as proposed

New Survey:

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/9thJuly2014/

<AWK> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/9thJuly2014/results

Proposal from Alistar

rrs, make minutes

Joshue: important infomation about techniques

Proposal WG make at last meeting two weeks ago

MC: adding expanded disclaimer to top of each technique page

AWK: reads comments from surveys

lgr (from survey): I won't block this but feel that our experience with adding boilerplate of this type to the beginnings of pages and sections is not that people are more likely to read it (they still skip over it), but that they have a harder time finding the information about the technique itself. I'm fine with this wording, but would rather see it replace the paragraph at the bottom,...

scribe: instead of being added at the top.

tim boladn: agree with putting a link to explanatory text at the bottom

<jon_avila> +1

bruce: I still prefer having the disclaimer stay at the bottom. We can’t make people read, and putting it at the top does not change that. But this a preference, not something I cannot live with.

MC: agrees, but thinks EO will not agree

LGR: need to decide

Joshue: does not like lots of stuff at top

<David> +1 to all our thoughts

Wording is good, but leads to text blindness

mc: outlines mechanism to resolve
... needs to coordinate through director (judy)
... other option is to accept for now, take up next round if we like
... push back now will delay publication

DM: trying to take back preliminary approval will be awkward

<Joshue> +q

awk: reminds us that we already had joint meeting on this

mc: we met informally, we did not really object
... david metaphor cuts both ways

it may be harder to retract edit than to retract concensus

mc: group needs to decide
... may be better opportunity to revisit as significant reorganize is anticipated
... question of net benefit depends who you ask
... yes, extra text is a burden
... but EO would probably argue that ommiting text has larger cost

joshue: all folks on call made similar comments

awk: if we want to keep at bottom, can we defer to judy?

mc: doesn't think judy will want to decide, she will want concensus from both groups

joshue: pushing back publication more harmful than top of pages being text heavy

awk: can we just delay this change rather than delay publication?

mc: attempts to publish without this resolved is likely to create work, especially for chairs

joshue: comes down to least bad
... we all agree with text, concern is if added boiler plate is net gain

mc: is there a net cost?
... Worked to keep paragraph short. Cost of keeping is low.
... Cost of fighting is high (delays publication).
... Could also use added boiler plate as additional motivation to revisit overall formating.

joshue: New boiler plate at top seems less disruptive than working on this more.
... Seems to be a bit of a patch, need to revisit whole approach of document.

aside to reconfirm that w3 site is having issues...

mc: Construction work at MIT !
... MIT larger IT folks deny there is a problem

RESOLUTION: EO proposal for LC-2895 and Updated Technique July 9th 2014

Chairs asked to convey WG member concerns.

<Loretta> I need to go, Bye!

rss agent, make minutes

rssagent, make minutes

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Accept 2938 as proposed [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: close 261 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: David to open wiki page for captcha [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action02]
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.138 (CVS log)
$Date: 2014-07-09 20:06:25 $

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Succeeded: s/Vellum/Velleman/
Succeeded: s/Jame/James/
Found Scribe: bruce
Found Scribe: bbailey
Inferring ScribeNick: bbailey
Scribes: bruce, bbailey
Default Present: Joshue, David_MacDonald, +1.617.766.aaaa, Sailesh_Panchang, Bruce_Bailey, Michael_Cooper, Kenny, Andrew_Kirkpatrick, +1.571.389.aabb, jon_avila, Loretta, Kathy_Wahlbin, Marc_Johlic, shadi, Katie_Haritos-Shea, James_Nurthen, +1.727.480.aacc, Cooper
Present: Joshue David_MacDonald +1.617.766.aaaa Sailesh_Panchang Bruce_Bailey Michael_Cooper Kenny Andrew_Kirkpatrick +1.571.389.aabb jon_avila Loretta Kathy_Wahlbin Marc_Johlic shadi Katie_Haritos-Shea James_Nurthen +1.727.480.aacc Cooper
Regrets: Kathleen
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2014JulSep/0004.html
Found Date: 08 Jul 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-wai-wcag-minutes.html
People with action items: accept close david

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