The first discussion and majority of meeting time was devoted to the Tutorials - examining the open issues from the Tables Tutorial and wrapping up the Images Tutorial comments. There was some discussion of the Tables thumbnail icons, how detailed they should be, how they should be placed, and what alt text was appropriate. Eric thanked AnnaBelle for her excellent copy-edits to the Images Tutorials and felt confident that Images is in good shape for final review. Shawn told everyone to look for a questionnaire and to please make the time to complete it since the goal is to have these completed in may. With the expectation that there will be more comments, suggested changes to Tables Tutorials, Eric asked that those be the priority when completing the questionnaire. Next was a discussion of the Indie-UI Requirements draft and Wayne's comments. Some general comments from Wayne and Liam will be submitted by them as individuals and Sharron took the action to submit one comment from the group. That is the observation that terms "use case" and "scenario" seem to be used randomly. We propose that Indie-UI refer only to "use cases" since that is the more accurate term in this context. Finally, for those who are more productive in working group activities, some participants remained to discuss the Tutorials Cover Page and others left to work on their own.
Shawn:Thanks to Anna Belle for tutorials work this week!
<yatil> +1
Eric: I applied last Friday's and last Monday's meeting comments to the content of the tutorial. So it will be helpful to take a look at that.
Shawn: Should we comment on that now or will you send later...status?
Eric: I will send it later
Shawn: When you send the update note will you point people to the part that is new?
Eric: Illustration of the concepts of scope and header id. I added one example and would like feedback before I go on with it.
<yatil> https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/tables/
Eric: I put something there to illustrate the scope attribute - what are your impressions?
Wayne: I think it is cute...it is good but cute too
Shawn: I think it is awesome to have this kind of illustration but maybe don't need the dots and arrows, shading would be enough.
Wayne: REALLY? I think it captures the concepts from a computer science standpoint.
Shawn: But it makes it really complex.
Wayne: Yes, because it is illustrating a complex concept
<Jan> Hey Eric - can you post the link again?
<yatil> https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/tables/
Bim: Without the arrows, the direction affected by the scope definition is unknown
Shawn: But the point is to define what is a complex irregular table. My concept was that I could look at these images quickly and understand where to go for explanations.
Wayne: If we use these within the content and build on them it might work better for you.
Bim: Yes, use the illustrations as building blocks
Shawn: Straw proposal is to have shaded table with no dots and arrows on the concept page.
Sharron: and was the suggestion not to then add more illustration as concepts are developed?
Shawn: Yes but I am not sure that will work as I look at the examples
Eric: It may not make that much sense in context.
Shawn: So Bim and Wayne on the page itself, we have the actual coded table and is it therefore is explanatory alt text even needed?
Wayne: After the introductory sentence, there is a place before the second paragraph where the illustration could go with minimal alt text
... my training may be influencing this approach.
Bim: I like the idea of having it here perhaps under the introductory idea to illustrate the "range" concept of scope.
Eric: I can see how it would help to some extent but not sure it is that necessary.
Bim: Are the tables centered on the page?
Shawn: Yes
Bim: Difficult for screen magnification since we lose the tables in white space
Eric: I will align them left
... should we have an image in the right hand area that displays like a schematic?
... the one with the arrows and dots?
Shawn: If I saw the picture and then read the words, it would make sense for the first one as an intro but after that, I would not need it throughout. I will have understood the concept and will see the actual headings and data in place.
Eric: That makes sense to me.
Shawn: Any other ideas?
... OK then the straw proposal is: Small simple shaded tables, iconic looking to illustrate general concept. On actual content page for each there is a more detailed icon with the dots and arrows within the intro.
... and about the alt text: it should say what it does
Bim: Suggestion: "an icon of a table with the second column as a heading" or something like that
... it will help, people get confused because they don't understand that screen readers rely on headers and scope to understand relationships.
Shawn: Eric, were you planning to make icons for all of the tables?
Eric: Not for captions and summaries but for all the others
<Wayne> Possible complex alt: Table with row headers in the second column and the direction of scope indicated
<shawn> Tables review status:
Wayne: I have read all the tables, watched the copy edits and read them. I feel up to date and could do careful review this week
Jan: Looked through as a cursory review.
Andrew: Cursory review as well
Liam: I reveiwed, suggested some changes and will have another look this week.
Shawn: Will we be able to have a questionairre to publish next week?
Wayne: Yes I am OK with that
Shawn: Eric if we have a questionaire for permission to publish, we can still submit comments on GitHub?
... there is a minor issue with sequence. Eric announces he is ready, we put up the questionaire. Then the question is whether we make the changes in progress so that the next person sees a changed version before
Eric: We could have the original as well as the changed version for all to review
Shawn: So we could have the static version as well as the in-progress version to comment on in the questionaire
... anything else about the plans for wrapping this up?
Eric: I did a thorough run through of the content. AnnaBelle made copyedits, some really really nice changes. It is shaping up and we can be very confident about launching that.
Shawn: Shall we put the questionaires out now and people can make the decision about when to review?
Andrew: Do we have a priority for which should be first?
Shawn: Both are due to be done in May.
Eric: I expect to get few comments for Images and more for Tables. So I expect to have more work to do on the tables and so I would like to have that feedback first
Shawn: What if we put out both and just ask people to focus on the Tables questionnaire first?
... we will try to have one week, comments will close on the 20th
... The other thing is the cover page. We want people to have the sense that this is a finished, really nice product. Those who would like to stay on and polish the cover page are encouraged to do that today. So that will wrap up those three in May. Any other comments about the tutorials?
Sharron: I have wondered if we should not pay a bit more attention tot he issue of SVG graphics? I know that accessiiblity is still not yet stable for SVG but perhaps just a passing reference to that fact and a brief nod to work in progress?
<yatil> https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/images/tips/##SVG+graphics
<Jan> +1 for mentioning SVG and problems not yet being solved
<shawn> https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/images/tips/ Tips includes SVG
Eric: I wanted to address the suggestion for having an SVG reference in the Images tutorial. I think it would be great but we may have to push this back. SVG accessiiblity is a bit of a black hole
Andrew: We do have a comment about SVG in the FAQs could we expand it?
Shawn: Since Sharron mentioned it, Eric added that.
Wayne: We were talking about the F2F we mentioned those topics where we might feature a "Coming soon..." kind of look at new technologies as a part of the general Tutorials. Maybe we could do it that way
Shawn: I want to support the way you have addressed it, Eric. I am in support of including a general note and suggest a paragraph, not 2 sub-bullets)
... Anything else on tutorials for now?
<shawn> requirements doc: http://www.w3.org/TR/indie-ui-requirements/
<shawn> wayne comments: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2014AprJun/0027.html
Shawn: Thanks to Wayne and could you summarize what this document is?
Wayne: It lays out the problems that Indie-UI is trying to solve, gives you a roadmap of some places to look, provides some use cases as demonstrations of need.
... they go through several cases where the UI fails to support independence
Shawn: They call them both Use Cases and Scenarios...what was your improession of that
Wayne: They are actually all Use Cases, it follows the exact parameters
Shawn: Should we recommend that they use the term "Use Cases" throughout and drop the reference to "Scenarios?"
Liam: If it makes the meaning less specific, we should recommend to get rid of it.
Shawn: Is there anything to discuss?
Wayne: Not really. It was an easy document to read, I could understand the topics introduced. I do think there are use cases that are still missing, but I did not think it was an EO issue.
Shawn: But you can suggest that as an individual and should do so.
Wayne: there were some places with lack of clarity and I pointed it out
Liam: I looked at some standard UI libraries to see if there might be some things that cover the suggested work within this. From a user with disabilities perspective, the user context is more important than the events and yet has less information.
... I put comments in the wiki
... there is still quite a bit missing, partly because the widgets that are referenced are not taking account of the more recent things that are out there.
Shawn: Thanks so much Wayne and Liam for reviewing that. Here is what I propose for discussion.
... Given the nature of Wayne's and Liam's comments and that this is an early draft, we can ask you both to submit your comments as individuals and that will get the same attention from the Indie UI WG. OK?
Wayne: Yes OK I will do that
Liam: Yes, I can do that
Shawn: Will you suggest that they remove the idea of Scenario entirely?
Wayne: OK I will do that, but I think that should come from EO - it is exactly what our group should do.
Shawn: Sharron, take what Wayne started, tweak and put it into formal submission mode and submit to the Indie UI group
<shawn> ACTION: Sharron on IndieUI Requirements - draft proposed EOWG comment on use case (not "scenario") see wayne's e-mail put in https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/IndieUI_Requirements_Review#.22use_cases.22_versus_.22scenarios.22 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/05/09-eo-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-301 - On indieui requirements - draft proposed eowg comment on use case (not "scenario") see wayne's e-mail put in https://www.w3.org/wai/eo/wiki/indieui_requirements_review#.22use_cases.22_versus_.22scenarios.22 [on Sharron Rush - due 2014-05-16].
Shawn: Thanks again Liam and Wayne...does anyone else want to review?
<Wayne> Aside to Liam: Do you think responsiveness use cases are within the scope?
Shawn: Some people like the work we do in in groups, for those who prefer to work on their own, you are welcome to leave and work on that separately
Jan: I have lost connection to the internet and so will leave for today
Shawn: OK and if you can schedule time to review the tutorials, I'll see you next week, bye
<shawn> https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/
Shawn: This is slightly tweaked from what we saw previously. Please review and let's discuss
<Andrew> opening para - "They are useful to ..." or "They will be useful to ..." ?
Andrew: grammatical - do we know that they "are" useful? or should it be more conditional
Shawn: How about "designed for"
<Andrew> They are designed for a variety of people ...
Eric: The intro is meant to show why people may need the tutorials
Shawn: What is a soft or welcoming way to start off?
... AnnaBelle tried to make things a bit more casual in the Images tutorial, maybe we should think about that. I appreciate the desire to start less abruptly but not sure this does it.
<Andrew> "These tutorials will help to apply ..." - maybe "These tutorials will help you apply ..." speaking directly to the reader
Sharron: Something that says "we're glad you're here"
start with a welcoming to the reader - maybe start with a "you" - eg here you are / we know you're here / we want to help you ...Shawn: You've found ...
Bim: If you ever wanted to know more about web accessiiblity, you've come to the right place
<Andrew> thanks for taking a look at our tutorials - we hope they'll help you make a more accessible site
Liam: Any fool can build an accessible web site...look it up
Andrew: ...and our tutorials can help you be a fool too!
Shawn: With these tutorials you can show off your web accessibility skills, be an accessiiblity rock star
Liam: Do not be afraid
Bim: If you panic at the word accessiiblity, DON'T PANIC
Shawn: Fear no more
Bim: You havefound the ultimate in web accessibility tutorials
Liam: It is a Bible quote, we could add : We will not fail you nor forsake you
Shawn: Welcome...
Sharron: Hi there! We're glad you're here to learn more about web accessibility
<yatil> ...to web accessibility nirvana.
<shawn> we're glad you're here to learn about web accessibility
Shawn: Tutorials to the rescue
<LiamM> Welcome to the jungle
<LiamM> We've got fun 'n' games
<LiamM> We got everything you want
<LiamM> Honey, we know the names
<LiamM> We are the people that can find
<LiamM> Whatever you may need
Sharron: Come in, we'll pour a cup of tea, give you a hug and get started
<LiamM> (in the words of Axl Rose, obviously)
<yatil> "Free hugs and web accessibility advice" would make a great t-shirt ;-)
Shawn: We've designed these tutorials to makeit easier for you to succeed...
Bim: reaching the widest possible web audience
Eric: also make the web a better place
... I like this approach and can work something out from here, I believe
Shawn: could point to Accessiiblity Principles document ...
Sharron: Why is it still a draft?
Shawn: Last I knew there were a few pending edits, and we have not yet approved it as a group
Sharron: So how do we feel about pointing to a draft?
Shawn: We have removed the great big caution and allowed people point to it?
<yatil> +1 for pointing
<yatil> "They are designed for a variety of people, including:"
<yatil> They are designed for a variety of people:
Shawn: what else? anything in the bullets?
Sharron: "will" not "can"
Eric: Remove "including" from opening sentence
... and add a summary bullet at the end
Shawn: Can we make the footer a bit quieter?
Andrew: Below the line?
Shawn: Yes
Eric: We have to have it there, I am not sure what parameters there are
Shawn: OK we will take it up outside the group
... good! alright thanks everyone. We are adjouned