Meeting Record

XHTML2 WG FtF, Venice, Italy, Day 3

Minutes of 20 February 2008

Agenda

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-02-Venice-FtF-Agenda

Present

Roland Merrick, Alessio Cartocci, Unknown Simone, Toshihiko Yamakami, Steven Pemberton, Shane McCarron, Gregory Rosmaita, Gerrie Shults

Regrets

Tina Holmboe

Chair

Roland Merrick

Scribe

Toshihiko Yamakami, Unknown yamx

IRC Log

Original

Resolutions

we agreed to go access module last call. link

Topics

XML Events 2 (continued from yesterday)
frames (continued from yesterda)
ARIA
CURIE
RDFa syntax
Access module
Role attribute
roadmap
f2f meeting plan.
AOB(Any other business)

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08:17:42 <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes

Roland Merrick: rrsagent, make minutes ←

08:17:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_ ←

08:20:15 <Roland__> Zakim, list

Roland Merrick: Zakim, list ←

08:23:17 <yamx> (Roland and Yam are here...)

Scribe problem: the name 'yamx' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown yamx: (Roland and Yam are here...) ←

08:26:48 <yamx> (Steven had a trouble with his foot last night.... He will not be in his room, but will skype in...)

Unknown yamx: (Steven had a trouble with his foot last night.... He will not be in this room, but will skype in...) ←

08:27:01 <yamx> s/his room/this room/

08:27:34 <Roland__> Chair: Roland

08:27:39 <Roland__> Scribe: Yam

(Scribe set to Toshihiko Yamakami)

08:27:57 <Roland__> rrsagent, make minutes

Roland Merrick: rrsagent, make minutes ←

08:27:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland__

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland__ ←

08:28:15 <yamx> Topic: XML Events 2 (continued from yesterday)

1. XML Events 2 (continued from yesterday)

08:29:59 <oedipus> morning - hope steve's ok...

Gregory Rosmaita: morning - hope steve's ok... ←

08:30:20 <yamx> Hope so...

Unknown yamx: Hope so... ←

08:30:36 <yamx> His ankle is improved, I heard.

Unknown yamx: His ankle is improved, I heard. ←

08:30:38 <Roland__> Meeting: XHTML2 WG FtF, Venice, Italy, Day 3

08:30:53 <oedipus> that's good to hear

Gregory Rosmaita: that's good to hear ←

08:31:30 <Roland__> Present: Roland, Yam, Gregory, Simone

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08:32:19 <yamx> Roland: we have some issues stated in Agenda.

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Roland Merrick: we have some issues stated in Agenda. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

08:32:58 <Roland__> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-02-Venice-FtF-Agenda

08:33:27 <Roland__> Regrets: Tina

08:33:48 <Roland__> rrsagent, make minutes

Roland Merrick: rrsagent, make minutes ←

08:33:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland__

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland__ ←

08:34:26 <yamx> John's comments in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/29-xhtml-minutes.html#action02 ?

Unknown yamx: John's comments in ACTION-02">http://www.w3.org/2007/08/29-xhtml-minutes.html#ACTION-02 ? ←

08:35:20 <Roland__> ScribeNick: yamx

(Scribe set to Unknown yamx)

08:37:15 <yamx> Roland: I just want to know where we are about actions.

Roland Merrick: I just want to know where we are about actions. ←

08:38:44 <yamx> Roland: The first part (we clarified it in capture, target, bubble, default), we changed. So the issue is only action (Mark).

Roland Merrick: The first part (we clarified it in capture, target, bubble, default), we changed. So the issue is only action (Mark). ←

08:40:40 <yamx> Roland: Resolution on Aug 29 2007 said we have to investigate part 2, in 0011 (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0011)

Roland Merrick: Resolution on Aug 29 2007 said we have to investigate part 2, in 0011 (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0011) ←

08:41:34 <yamx> Roland: We make default as bubble, but bubble includes "bubble" and "target" phases, so it is OK with the original issue.

Roland Merrick: We make default as bubble, but bubble includes "bubble" and "target" phases, so it is OK with the original issue. ←

08:42:38 <oedipus> roland, are you referring to jon's point: "if the bubble phase does exclude the target phase, then it seems like you will need a way to say target+bubble.  For symmetry, I'll bet you need capture+target too.  The only names that come to mind right now are"ascent" (target+bubble) and "descent" (capture+target)."

Gregory Rosmaita: roland, are you referring to jon's point: "if the bubble phase does exclude the target phase, then it seems like you will need a way to say target+bubble. For symmetry, I'll bet you need capture+target too. The only names that come to mind right now are"ascent" (target+bubble) and "descent" (capture+target)." ←

08:46:12 <Roland__> yesterday we concluded that bubble phase includes the target phase. I am now looking to find where in the DOM 3 Events specs that is says this.

Roland Merrick: yesterday we concluded that bubble phase includes the target phase. I am now looking to find where in the DOM 3 Events specs that is says this. ←

08:53:30 <yamx> Roland: In DOM3 Event, on addEventListener, useCapture parameter is a boolean.

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

Roland Merrick: In DOM3 Event, on addEventListener, useCapture parameter is a boolean. ←

08:54:21 <yamx> Roland: , which means "capture" or "target and bubbling". only one of them.

Roland Merrick: , which means "capture" or "target and bubbling". only one of them. ←

08:54:43 <Roland__> Section 1.6  Basic interfaces -- http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html#Events-interface

Roland Merrick: Section 1.6 Basic interfaces -- http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html#Events-interface ←

08:55:36 <yamx> Roland: it is not so clear, but seems implied.

Roland Merrick: it is not so clear, but seems implied. ←

08:56:17 <yamx> Roland: All the changes we made deal with 0011 raised by John.

Roland Merrick: All the changes we made deal with 0011 raised by John. ←

08:57:06 <Roland__> Present: Alessio

08:57:06 <yamx> Roland: next issue is 0012 (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0012)

Scribe problem: the name 'yamx' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'Roland' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Roland: next issue is 0012 (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0012) ←

08:58:24 <ShaneM> I think 0012 is somewhat incorrect.  xml events 2 DOES specify a context.

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Unknown ShaneM: I think 0012 is somewhat incorrect. xml events 2 DOES specify a context. ←

08:58:36 <ShaneM> see section 6.

Unknown ShaneM: see section 6. ←

08:58:36 <Roland__> rrsagent, make minutes

Scribe problem: the name 'Roland__' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Roland__: rrsagent, make minutes ←

08:58:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland__

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland__ ←

09:04:01 <yamx> Roland: I remembered some discussion with XForms; they added context attribute.

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Unknown Roland: I remembered some discussion with XForms; they added context attribute. ←

09:04:29 <yamx> Roland: maybe it is interesting to add context attribute if necessary, but not before we fix the current draft.

Unknown Roland: maybe it is interesting to add context attribute if necessary, but not before we fix the current draft. ←

09:05:29 <yamx> Roland: we keep it as it is, we have to further investigate the issue (do we really need this "context" attribute) in XML Events 2.

Unknown Roland: we keep it as it is, we have to further investigate the issue (do we really need this "context" attribute) in XML Events 2. ←

09:06:10 <yamx> Roland: We defined the context in Sectoin 6 in XML Events 2.

Unknown Roland: We defined the context in Sectoin 6 in XML Events 2. ←

09:06:48 <yamx> Roland: Specifying context will be added if we identify any useful use cases.

Unknown Roland: Specifying context will be added if we identify any useful use cases. ←

09:07:05 <yamx> Roland: Add a note about this (considering in the future in action element).

Unknown Roland: Add a note about this (considering in the future in action element). ←

09:07:09 <yamx> Shane: OK.

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Shane: OK. ←

09:07:25 <yamx> Roland: 0012 is done.

Unknown Roland: 0012 is done. ←

09:07:55 <yamx> Roland: next issue is 0013 (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0013)

Unknown Roland: next issue is 0013 (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0013) ←

09:08:13 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to add text about context issue near where if and while are described with the action element in xml events 2

ACTION: Shane to add text about context issue near where if and while are described with the action element in xml events 2 ←

09:14:25 <yamx> Roland: we think that event does not traverse to more than one DOM.

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Unknown Roland: we think that event does not traverse to more than one DOM. ←

09:14:40 <yamx> Roland: spelled out single DOM.

Unknown Roland: spelled out single DOM. ←

09:15:47 <Roland__> John's note includes : Therefore, for the sake of clarity, please spell out the fact that the

Unknown Roland__: John's note includes : Therefore, for the sake of clarity, please spell out the fact that the ←

09:15:48 <Roland__> spec does not define any bubbling behavior between two DOMs and that

Unknown Roland__: spec does not define any bubbling behavior between two DOMs and that ←

09:15:48 <Roland__> events don't traverse more than one DOM unless a consumer of XML events

Unknown Roland__: events don't traverse more than one DOM unless a consumer of XML events ←

09:15:48 <Roland__> defines a mechanism for dispatching events in one DOM based on the

Unknown Roland__: defines a mechanism for dispatching events in one DOM based on the ←

09:15:48 <Roland__> occurrence of events in another DOM.

Unknown Roland__: occurrence of events in another DOM. ←

09:16:31 <Roland__> I would have expected that a "single DOM" was assumed but it appears not to be the case.

Unknown Roland__: I would have expected that a "single DOM" was assumed but it appears not to be the case. ←

09:17:27 <alessio> simone is coming back soon

Alessio Cartocci: simone is coming back soon ←

09:17:56 <yamx> Roland: no harm to put a small note about single DOM, not bridging two DOMs.

Unknown Roland: no harm to put a small note about single DOM, not bridging two DOMs. ←

09:18:04 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane add a note that events do not bridge two DOMs

ACTION: Shane add a note that events do not bridge two DOMs ←

09:18:05 <Roland__> We could add a note to make it clear that the capture/bubbling is within the scope of a single DOM.

Unknown Roland__: We could add a note to make it clear that the capture/bubbling is within the scope of a single DOM. ←

09:18:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Steven-eee

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Steven-eee ←

09:18:46 <Roland__> Present: Steven

Unknown Roland__: Present+ Steven ←

09:19:08 <Steven-eee> s/:/+/

09:19:27 <alessio> Hope you're feeling better, Steven...

Alessio Cartocci: Hope you're feeling better, Steven... ←

09:20:57 <Steven-eee> it is even better than first thing this morning Alessio, so I am optimitic

Scribe problem: the name 'Steven-eee' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Steven-eee: it is even better than first thing this morning Alessio, so I am optimitic ←

09:21:02 <Steven-eee> stic

Unknown Steven-eee: stic ←

09:21:22 <yamx> Roland: looking into the second problem in 0013.

Unknown Roland: looking into the second problem in 0013. ←

09:22:31 <yamx> (the second issue is "For the second problem, I have to turn to the xforms repeat construct, and put a repeat within a repeat:)

(the second issue is "For the second problem, I have to turn to the xforms repeat construct, and put a repeat within a repeat:") ←

09:22:44 <yamx> s/t:)/t:")

09:22:47 <Roland__> Present: Roland, Yam, Allessio, Simone, Gregory, Shane

Scribe problem: the name 'Allessio' does not match any of the 19 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami

09:25:33 <Steven-eee> Present+Steven

Scribe problem: the name 'Steven-eee' does not match any of the 9 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Toshihiko Yamakami Unknown Allessio Unknown Simone Gregory Rosmaita Shane McCarron Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Steven-eee: Present+Steven ←

09:26:02 <yamx> Roland: we will probably solve the second issue, too. Hope John will review the latest spec to find out whether his issue is fixed.

Scribe problem: the name 'yamx' does not match any of the 9 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Toshihiko Yamakami Unknown Allessio Unknown Simone Gregory Rosmaita Shane McCarron Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Roland Merrick: we will probably solve the second issue, too. Hope John will review the latest spec to find out whether his issue is fixed. ←

09:26:30 <yamx> Roland: we think we fiinshed all outstanding issues in XML Events 2.

Roland Merrick: we think we fiinshed all outstanding issues in XML Events 2. ←

09:26:51 <yamx> Shane: I have a question about event attribute.

Shane McCarron: I have a question about event attribute. ←

09:27:24 <yamx> Shane: event attribute collection.

Shane McCarron: event attribute collection. ←

09:27:38 <yamx> Roland: I imagine it is adequate.

Roland Merrick: I imagine it is adequate. ←

09:27:51 <yamx> Shane: working with new draft.

Shane McCarron: working with new draft. ←

09:27:55 <yamx> Roland: sounds good.

Roland Merrick: sounds good. ←

09:28:06 <yamx> Roland: any more items on XML Events 2?

Roland Merrick: any more items on XML Events 2? ←

09:28:17 <yamx> (none from participants)

(none from participants) ←

09:29:00 <yamx> Topic: frames (continued from yesterda)

2. frames (continued from yesterda)

09:29:28 <yamx> Roland: suggests iframe back in XHTML2.

Roland Merrick: suggests iframe back in XHTML2. ←

09:29:45 <yamx> Roland: two types of containers should be clarified.

Roland Merrick: two types of containers should be clarified. ←

09:30:23 <Steven-eee> Gregory, I believe we accepted that proposal

Unknown Steven-eee: Gregory, I believe we accepted that proposal ←

09:30:31 <Steven-eee> to add 'implements'

Unknown Steven-eee: to add 'implements' ←

09:30:39 <ShaneM> I believe we did as well (@implements)

Shane McCarron: I believe we did as well (@implements) ←

09:30:44 <oedipus> thank you steven - i just wanted to make sure before we moved on

Gregory Rosmaita: thank you steven - i just wanted to make sure before we moved on ←

09:30:58 <ShaneM> my plan is to add a comment about HASFEATURE and let someone smarter figure it out.

Shane McCarron: my plan is to add a comment about HASFEATURE and let someone smarter figure it out. ←

09:31:12 <oedipus> that excludes me...

Gregory Rosmaita: that excludes me... ←

09:31:26 <ShaneM> clearly ;-)

Shane McCarron: clearly ;-) ←

09:31:38 <oedipus> ;-)

Gregory Rosmaita: ;-) ←

09:33:56 <yamx> (Allesio presents something on the projector.)

(Allesio presents something on the projector.) ←

09:35:18 <alessio> yes steven, I will

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Unknown alessio: yes steven, I will ←

09:38:12 <Roland__> network has slowed down now that we are sahing with WAI PF meeting next door :-)

Roland Merrick: network has slowed down now that we are sahing with WAI PF meeting next door :-) ←

09:38:13 <alessio> so, we are analyzing the question of fallback for iframes

Unknown alessio: so, we are analyzing the question of fallback for iframes ←

09:38:48 <alessio> because one "classical" issue is the iframe poor accessibility

Unknown alessio: because one "classical" issue is the iframe poor accessibility ←

09:41:09 <oedipus> many assistive technologies offer a "do not display iframe" option; for low vision users and alternate input users, it's the insane amount of scrolling

Gregory Rosmaita: many assistive technologies offer a "do not display iframe" option; for low vision users and alternate input users, it's the insane amount of scrolling ←

09:41:51 <oedipus> GJR: that's how bad the problem is -- AT vendors would rather have people suppress IFRAME than design an alternate strategy

Gregory Rosmaita: that's how bad the problem is -- AT vendors would rather have people suppress IFRAME than design an alternate strategy [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:43:12 <yamx> Yam: Combining multiple documents is some essential one, some umbrella spec, e.g. XML Events 2. Not ifrems back in.

Toshihiko Yamakami: Combining multiple documents is some essential one, possibly some umbrella spec, e.g. XML Events 2. Not iframes back in. ←

09:43:31 <oedipus> +1 to yam

Gregory Rosmaita: +1 to yam ←

09:43:56 <yamx> s/ifrems/iframes/

09:44:21 <yamx> s/some umbrella/possibly some umbrella/

09:44:22 <alessio> right gregory, in fact we're only starting to explore a possibility to make an accessible object

Unknown alessio: right gregory, in fact we're only starting to explore a possibility to make an accessible object ←

09:44:45 <alessio> unfortunately actually object is very buggy

Unknown alessio: unfortunately actually object is very buggy ←

09:45:16 <Steven-eee> but we shouldn't let our *design* be constrained by existing buggy implementations

Unknown Steven-eee: but we shouldn't let our *design* be constrained by existing buggy implementations ←

09:45:18 <alessio> for example we cannot load dynamic data, even reloading the page

Unknown alessio: for example we cannot load dynamic data, even reloading the page ←

09:45:24 <oedipus> yes, i just had that conversation in the HTML WG for the ten thousdandth time this week -- OBJECT with role over VIDEO, AUDIO, other stuff

Gregory Rosmaita: yes, i just had that conversation in the HTML WG for the ten thousdandth time this week -- OBJECT with role over VIDEO, AUDIO, other stuff ←

09:45:40 <Steven-eee> if necessary we make an 'cid test' for objec to embarrass the implementors

Unknown Steven-eee: if necessary we make an 'acid test' for objec to embarrass the implementors ←

09:45:44 <alessio> I agree steven

Unknown alessio: I agree steven ←

09:45:49 <oedipus> me too

Gregory Rosmaita: me too ←

09:45:56 <Steven-eee> s/cid/acid/

09:46:06 <alessio> in fact that I'm starting to do yesterday :)

Unknown alessio: in fact that I'm started to do yesterday :) ←

09:46:29 <alessio> s/ing/ed

09:46:33 <alessio> s/ing/ed/

09:46:52 <oedipus> moving forward, into the future, ARIA politeness levels and other features will help with dynamic content accessibility

Gregory Rosmaita: moving forward, into the future, ARIA politeness levels and other features will help with dynamic content accessibility ←

09:48:26 <alessio> the goal is having a url like this: http://mypage.htm#src(f1=firstAddress,f2=secondAddress)

Unknown alessio: the goal is having a url like this: http://mypage.htm#src(f1=firstAddress,f2=secondAddress) ←

09:48:29 <Roland__> we are just starting to look at what we would need from a new "container". Some of the the desirable characteristics of IFRAME should be explored. We are not suggesting that we reintroduce IFRAME as is was previously defined.

Roland Merrick: we are just starting to look at what we would need from a new "container". Some of the the desirable characteristics of IFRAME should be explored. We are not suggesting that we reintroduce IFRAME as is was previously defined. ←

09:48:32 <Steven> -> http://www.w3.org/People/mimasa/test/object/ object test

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Unknown Steven: -> http://www.w3.org/People/mimasa/test/object/ object test ←

09:48:45 <alessio> yes

Unknown alessio: yes ←

09:49:45 <Steven> -> http://www.w3.org/People/mimasa/test/object/results Object test results (not up to date)

Unknown Steven: -> http://www.w3.org/People/mimasa/test/object/results Object test results (not up to date) ←

09:49:54 <Roland__> one characteristic we need is a separate security context

Roland Merrick: one characteristic we need is a separate security context ←

09:51:52 <ShaneM> I think that data in an "iframe" should be in its own DOM really.  its a separate, inset document.  There should be no ability to communicate across the boundary.

Shane McCarron: I think that data in an "iframe" should be in its own DOM really. its a separate, inset document. There should be no ability to communicate across the boundary. ←

09:53:07 <yamx> Allesio: We have to introduce a method to load a content in a dynamic content.

Scribe problem: the name 'Allesio' does not match any of the 9 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Toshihiko Yamakami Unknown Allessio Unknown Simone Gregory Rosmaita Shane McCarron Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Allesio: We have to introduce a method to load a content in a dynamic manner. ←

09:53:16 <yamx> s/dynamic content/dynamic manner/

09:53:56 <ShaneM> you mean other than webapi/ajax?

Shane McCarron: you mean other than webapi/ajax? ←

09:54:09 <yamx> sounds like.

sounds like. ←

09:54:27 <alessio> yes shane

Unknown alessio: yes shane ←

09:54:35 <ShaneM> and other than the src attribute we already have that a script/handler could just change?

Shane McCarron: and other than the src attribute we already have that a script/handler could just change? ←

09:54:43 <Roland__> Rather than "no ability" I believe the author of the containing document should determine what, if any, ability it wishes to grant the "iframe".

Roland Merrick: Rather than "no ability" I believe the author of the containing document should determine what, if any, ability it wishes to grant the "iframe". ←

09:54:49 <alessio> test url (kindly hosted by simone): http://w3c.onofri.org/test.htm#src(f1=http://www.google.it,f2=http://www.w3.org)

Unknown alessio: test url (kindly hosted by simone): http://w3c.onofri.org/test.htm#src(f1=http://www.google.it,f2=http://www.w3.org) ←

09:55:33 <alessio> yesterday I've tried to load dynamic content both in an object and iframe

Unknown alessio: yesterday I've tried to load dynamic content both in an object and iframe ←

09:57:31 <alessio> object seems not to refresh its "data" attribute

Unknown alessio: object seems not to refresh its "data" attribute ←

09:58:15 <alessio> iframe does refresh its "src"

Unknown alessio: iframe does refresh its "src" ←

09:58:36 <yamx> Roland: Simone, what do people think iframes are bad.. ?

Roland Merrick: Simone, what do people think iframes are bad.. ? ←

09:59:03 <yamx> Roland: so not a problem on iframes, but issues with people's use of javascript.

Roland Merrick: so not a problem on iframes, but issues with people's use of javascript. ←

09:59:46 <Steven> iframes test doesn't work for me Opera, FF, IE

Unknown Steven: iframes test doesn't work for me Opera, FF, IE ←

10:01:56 <Roland__> 06rrsagent, make minutes01

Roland Merrick: 06rrsagent, make minutes01 ←

10:02:57 <Roland__> rrsagent, make log public

Roland Merrick: rrsagent, make log public ←

10:03:54 <alessio> maybe there are some problems with security policies, steven

Unknown alessio: maybe there are some problems with security policies, steven ←

10:04:18 <Steven-eee> yes

Unknown Steven-eee: yes ←

10:05:54 <alessio> Roland: anyway this is a problem we have to handle

Roland Merrick: anyway this is a problem we have to handle [ Scribe Assist by Unknown alessio ] ←

10:06:16 <Simone> as per default, browsers does not load something if there are not on the same domain of master page, this is an important issue on AJAXy applications ans as I see this is resolved using a proxy (server side)

Unknown Simone: as per default, browsers does not load something if there are not on the same domain of master page, this is an important issue on AJAXy applications and as I see this is resolved using a proxy (server side) ←

10:06:31 <alessio> true

Unknown alessio: true ←

10:06:38 <Simone> s/ans/and

10:07:09 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

Unknown Steven: rrsagent, make minutes ←

10:07:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

10:13:02 <ShaneM> I think the network did drop

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Shane McCarron: I think the network did drop ←

10:21:29 <Steven-eee> sound quality is not good enough to hear

(No events recorded for 8 minutes)

Unknown Steven-eee: sound quality is not good enough to hear ←

10:24:39 <yamx> (we have problems to show the loaded frames example.)

(we have problems to show the loaded frames example.) ←

10:24:51 <yamx> (Our network is very bad...)

(Our network is very bad...) ←

10:25:07 <yamx> (We are talking about the framework of container and needs for standardization in general.)

(We are talking about the framework of container and needs for standardization in general.) ←

10:25:09 <Steven-eee> (we noticed :-) )

Unknown Steven-eee: (we noticed :-) ) ←

10:25:12 <Roland__> some discussion about what aspects of "container" support we should tackle as part of XHTML

Roland Merrick: some discussion about what aspects of "container" support we should tackle as part of XHTML ←

10:25:49 <alessio> maybe this woks: http://w3c.onofri.org/test.xml#src(f1=http://www.google.it,f2=http://www.w3.org)

Unknown alessio: maybe this workss: http://w3c.onofri.org/test.xml#src(f1=http://www.google.it,f2=http://www.w3.org) ←

10:25:52 <Roland__> perhaps the container topic should be in a separate spec like we have done for XML events

Roland Merrick: perhaps the container topic should be in a separate spec like we have done for XML events ←

10:26:25 <alessio> s/wok/works/

10:26:31 <yamx> But it is OK to talk it in XHTML2 framework, we can make it a separate spec if we find it appropriate in the future.

But it is OK to talk it in XHTML2 framework, we can make it a separate spec if we find it appropriate in the future. ←

10:27:24 <Simone> for example, problem maybe the MIME type shipped by the server

Unknown Simone: for example, problem maybe the MIME type shipped by the server ←

10:27:37 <ShaneM> good point.

Shane McCarron: good point. ←

10:28:06 <Simone> now is XML and works

Unknown Simone: now is XML and works ←

10:28:10 <yamx> From my viewpoint, to describe logical relationships of multiple docs and to describe some screen layout info for multiple (possiblly ) indpendent applications are two different things.

From my viewpoint, to describe logical relationships of multiple docs and to describe some screen layout info for multiple (possiblly ) indpendent applications are two different things. ←

10:29:57 <yamx> Roland: we will have a few minutes break, and have a joint meeting with WAI.

Roland Merrick: we will have a few minutes break, and have a joint meeting with WAI. ←

10:30:09 <yamx> Yam: do we have a meeting at WAI?

Toshihiko Yamakami: do we have a meeting at WAI? ←

10:30:09 <Steven-eee> which channel?

Unknown Steven-eee: which channel? ←

10:30:20 <yamx> Roland: a good question. possibly at their place.

Roland Merrick: a good question. possibly at their place. ←

10:30:23 <oedipus> the PF group is in #pf

Gregory Rosmaita: the PF group is in #pf ←

10:30:28 <Roland__> probably theirs as there are more of them

Roland Merrick: probably theirs as there are more of them ←

10:30:35 <yamx> Yam: I agree.

Toshihiko Yamakami: I agree. ←

10:30:36 <Steven-eee> how long break?

Unknown Steven-eee: how long break? ←

10:30:46 <Steven-eee> Long enouhg for me to shuffel to the cafe?

Unknown Steven-eee: Long enouhg for me to shuffle to the cafe? ←

10:30:58 <Steven-eee> s/shuffel/shuffle

10:31:10 <Roland__> till they return, so hopefully not long. estimate 5-10mins

Roland Merrick: till they return, so hopefully not long. estimate 5-10mins ←

10:47:46 <Roland__> WAI group joining us

(No events recorded for 16 minutes)

Roland Merrick: WAI group joining us ←

10:47:52 <Roland__> slowly assembling

Roland Merrick: slowly assembling ←

10:53:10 <Roland__> we will use #pf channel for this first part of joint session

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Roland Merrick: we will use #pf channel for this first part of joint session ←

10:53:18 <oedipus> ok

Gregory Rosmaita: ok ←

13:05:36 <yamx> (after lunch break, we resume at #xhtml)

(No events recorded for 132 minutes)

(after lunch break, we resume at #xhtml) ←

13:05:41 <yamx> Scribe: Yam

(Scribe set to Toshihiko Yamakami)

13:07:58 <yamx> Presence: Diego. AL, Roland, Rich, Allesso, Simone, Dimitar, Janina, Michael,

Scribe problem: the name 'Diego' does not match any of the 19 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Alexander Graf Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Scribe problem: the name 'Dimitar' does not match any of the 19 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami

Scribe problem: the name 'Janina' does not match any of the 19 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami

Scribe problem: the name '' does not match any of the 19 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami

13:08:04 <yamx> s/AL/Al/

13:08:09 <yamx> s/./,/

13:08:26 <Steven> s/Presence/Present/

13:08:30 <yamx> s/Michael/Michael, Yam/

13:08:41 <Steven> Present+Steven

Scribe problem: the name 'Steven' does not match any of the 14 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Diego Unknown Al Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Alessio Cartocci Unknown Simone Unknown Dimitar Unknown Janina Michael Rawling Toshihiko Yamakami Unknown Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Steven: Present+Steven ←

13:08:55 <yamx> s/Yam/Yam, Steven/

13:08:55 <Simone> s/Allesso/Alessio

13:09:32 <yamx> Topic: ARIA

3. ARIA

13:09:37 <oedipus> present+Gregory

Scribe problem: the name 'oedipus' does not match any of the 14 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Diego Unknown Al Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Alessio Cartocci Unknown Simone Unknown Dimitar Unknown Janina Michael Rawling Toshihiko Yamakami Unknown Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown oedipus: present+Gregory ←

13:09:54 <yamx> Al: I will present the overview.

Scribe problem: the name 'yamx' does not match any of the 14 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Diego Unknown Al Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Alessio Cartocci Unknown Simone Unknown Dimitar Unknown Janina Michael Rawling Toshihiko Yamakami Unknown Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: I will present the overview. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:09:58 <yamx> .. for kick-it-off.

Unknown yamx: .. for kick-it-off. ←

13:10:06 <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes

Roland Merrick: rrsagent, make minutes ←

13:10:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_ ←

13:10:17 <yamx> Al: ARIA suite is on 1st working draft.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: ARIA suite is on 1st working draft. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:10:37 <yamx> Al: this is already very close to last call, with a bunch of markups..

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: this is already very close to last call, with a bunch of markups.. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:11:00 <yamx> Al: engineering decision on browser behavior is close to "complete".

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: engineering decision on browser behavior is close to "complete". [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:11:29 <yamx> Al: New, first time to combine role and states in one document.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: New, first time to combine role and states in one document. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:11:51 <yamx> Al: the other new thing is an approach embedding ARIA markup in a host language.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: the other new thing is an approach embedding ARIA markup in a host language. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:12:28 <yamx> Al: we have two approaches, friendly to HTML5, the other  is friendly to XHMTL1/XHTML2.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: we have two approaches, friendly to HTML5, the other is friendly to XHMTL1/XHTML2. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:12:50 <yamx> Al: included role attribute is used in HTML5-friendly way.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: included role attribute is used in HTML5-friendly way. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:13:11 <yamx> Al: new writeup should be reviewed by XHTML2, is it a deal you sign up to?

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: new writeup should be reviewed by XHTML2-WG, is it a deal you sign up to? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:13:27 <yamx> s/XHTML2/XHTML2-WG/

13:14:15 <yamx> Al: to look for Firefox and Opera people to check its validity for them.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: to look for Firefox and Opera people to check its validity for them. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:14:29 <yamx> Al: missing something, raising a question about predefined role names..

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: missing something, raising a question about predefined role names.. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:14:44 <yamx> Long-winded

Unknown yamx: Long-winded ←

13:15:08 <yamx> Al: long-winded, (someone talking for a long time....)

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: long-winded, (someone talking for a long time....) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:15:24 <yamx> Al: predefined role names, how you model web pages?

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: predefined role names, how do you model web pages? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:15:32 <yamx> s/how you/how do you/

13:15:43 <MichaelC_VCE> -> ARIA Implementation in Host Languages http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-wai-aria-20080204/#implementation

Scribe problem: the name 'MichaelC_VCE' does not match any of the 14 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Diego Unknown Al Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Alessio Cartocci Unknown Simone Unknown Dimitar Unknown Janina Michael Rawling Toshihiko Yamakami Unknown Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown MichaelC_VCE: -> ARIA Implementation in Host Languages http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-wai-aria-20080204/#implementation ←

13:15:53 <yamx> Al: any outstanding issues between ARIA and XHTML2.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: any outstanding issues between ARIA and XHTML2. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:16:31 <yamx> Michael: name-space friendly version; in HTML5, it is similar to role attributes: two wordings..

Michael Rawling: one is name-space friendly version; the other for HTML5, it is similar to role attributes: two wordings.. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:16:43 <yamx> s/name-/one is name-/

13:16:55 <yamx> s/in HTML5/the other for HTML5/

13:18:05 <yamx> Al: CURIE.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: CURIE. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:18:17 <yamx> Al: we should talk about access element, also.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: we should talk about access element, also. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:18:35 <yamx> Al: RDFa will come out last call shortly.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: RDFa will come out last call shortly. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:18:49 <yamx> Al: we have to raise it, anything to be constructive...

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: we have to raise it, anything to be constructive... [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:19:06 <yamx> Al: we are sure access module and role module to be covered.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: we are sure access module and role module to be covered. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:19:09 <yamx> Topic: CUIRE

4. CURIE

13:19:14 <yamx> Roland: hopefully short...

Roland Merrick: hopefully short... [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:19:25 <yamx> s/CUIRE/CURIE/

13:21:59 <yamx> Yam: any possible issues from ARIA?

Toshihiko Yamakami: any possible issues from ARIA? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:22:23 <yamx> Al: colon and attribute, a browser bug, a lexical issue, be an interest to ARIA.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: colon and attribute, a browser bug, a lexical issue, be an interest to ARIA. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:22:32 <yamx> Al: any issues with CURIE syntax.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: any issues with CURIE syntax. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:23:27 <yamx> Al: no issue.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: no issue. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:23:29 <Rich> s/CUIRE/CURIE/

13:24:09 <yamx> Topic: RDFa syntax

5. RDFa syntax

13:24:26 <yamx> Al: want to make sure nothing to be talked on RDFa syntax. is that true?

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: want to make sure nothing to be talked on RDFa syntax. is that true? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:25:08 <yamx> Micheal: question. prefix part reference, similar to scheme name. any potential collision? room for clarification?

Scribe problem: the name 'Micheal' does not match any of the 14 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Diego Unknown Al Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Alessio Cartocci Unknown Simone Unknown Dimitar Unknown Janina Michael Rawling Toshihiko Yamakami Unknown Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Micheal: question. prefix part reference, similar to scheme name. any potential collision? room for clarification? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:25:41 <yamx> Shane: checking

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane' does not match any of the 14 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Diego Unknown Al Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Alessio Cartocci Unknown Simone Unknown Dimitar Unknown Janina Michael Rawling Toshihiko Yamakami Unknown Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Shane: checking [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:25:54 <yamx> Micheal: technical issue or educational issue?

Unknown Micheal: technical issue or educational issue? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:26:15 <oedipus> we should address the PF's response to XHTML2 WG that RDFa didn't suffice for requested predefined role "title" in Role comments

Unknown oedipus: we should address the PF's response to XHTML2 WG that RDFa didn't suffice for requested predefined role "title" in Role comments ←

13:27:18 <yamx> Shane: describing clarification about "for-human" and "for-machine". like qname..

Unknown Shane: describing clarification about "for-human" and "for-machine". like qname.. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:27:32 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane add a note htat there is a risk that humans might perceive a CURIE as a URI.

ACTION: Shane add a note that there is a risk that humans might perceive a CURIE as a URI. ←

13:27:38 <ShaneM> s/htat/that/

13:28:14 <yamx> Al: text of URI, point of crack user, cognitive factor, anything confusing people...

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: text of URI, point of crack user, cognitive factor, anything confusing people... [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:29:20 <ShaneM> Note that CURIEs have EXACTLY the same problem as QNames with respect to humans potentially misinterpreting them.

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 14 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Diego Unknown Al Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Alessio Cartocci Unknown Simone Unknown Dimitar Unknown Janina Michael Rawling Toshihiko Yamakami Unknown Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ShaneM: Note that CURIEs have EXACTLY the same problem as QNames with respect to humans potentially misinterpreting them. ←

13:29:44 <yamx> Al: RDFa is a way to inject a project as such, accessibility issue is uptake, not design of technology. We have desire for metadata, aligned to practical use.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: RDFa is a way to inject a project as such, accessibility issue is uptake, not design of technology. We have desire for metadata, aligned to practical use. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:30:03 <yamx> Roland: OK. done.

Roland Merrick: OK. done. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:30:11 <yamx> Topic: Access module

6. Access module

13:30:34 <yamx> Al: Access module replaces capability of accesskey in HTML4.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: Access module replaces capability of accesskey in HTML4. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:31:13 <yamx> Al: one point, came up to argument, action has to be adaptable (personalizable).

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: one point, came up to argument, action has to be adaptable (personalizable). [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:31:52 <yamx> Al: summary of that argument was display processing, going to element, assistive technology, before authorized action.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: summary of that argument was display processing, going to element, assistive technology, before authorized action. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:32:21 <yamx> Al: in the middle of form, ... in that example..

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: in the middle of form, ... in that example.. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:32:53 <yamx> Al: other users, with requirements "just do it", not focusing detailed sequence.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: other users, with requirements "just do it", not focusing detailed sequence. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:33:29 <yamx> Roland: binary selection.

Roland Merrick: binary selection by a boolean. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:33:46 <yamx> s/selection/selection by a boolean/

13:34:05 <yamx> Al: Practically, boolean may be OK.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: Practically, boolean may be OK. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:34:41 <ShaneM> We currently have language about the key attribute that discusses how agents must be able to override:  The character assigned to a key, and its relationship to a role or id attribute, are a suggestion of the author. User agents may provide mechanisms for overriding, disabling, or re-assigning keys. In such user agents, user-specified assignments must take precendence. If no key attribute is specified, the user agent SHOULD assign a key.

Unknown ShaneM: We currently have language about the key attribute that discusses how agents must be able to override: The character assigned to a key, and its relationship to a role or id attribute, are a suggestion of the author. User agents may provide mechanisms for overriding, disabling, or re-assigning keys. In such user agents, user-specified assignments must take precendence. If no key attribute is specified, the user agent SHOULD assign a key. ←

13:34:58 <yamx> Al: like IETF, security considerations. We need accessibility considerations. Micheal, you are geneus.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: like IETF, security considerations. We need accessibility considerations. Micheal, you are genius. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:34:58 <ShaneM> Similar language should be in the document for the activate attribute.

Unknown ShaneM: Similar language should be in the document for the activate attribute. ←

13:35:27 <yamx> Al: Activate or not may be appropriate.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: Activate or not may be appropriate. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:36:21 <yamx> Shane: user can overwrite. Good.

Unknown Shane: user can overwrite. Good. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:36:30 <oedipus> 2 birds with one stone dept. -- that satisfies the UAAG requirement

Unknown oedipus: 2 birds with one stone dept. -- that satisfies the UAAG requirement ←

13:36:34 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to add language to seciton 3.1.1 of xhtml-access to require user agent override of the activate attribute setting

ACTION: Shane to add language to seciton 3.1.1 of xhtml-access to require user agent override of the activate attribute setting ←

13:36:51 <yamx> s/geneus/genius/

13:37:02 <yamx> Roland: sounds good. some consensus here.

Roland Merrick: sounds good. some consensus here. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:37:17 <yamx> Al: this is all, any other issue for moving on.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: this is all, any other issue for moving on. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:37:20 <oedipus> i think UAAG will be happy with this, too

Unknown oedipus: i think UAAG will be happy with this, too ←

13:37:50 <yamx> Topic: Role attribute

7. Role attribute

13:38:25 <yamx> Roland: second last call, when available, Shane?

Roland Merrick: second last call, when available, Shane? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:38:42 <oedipus> FYI: http://www.w3.org/2008/02/19-xhtml-minutes.html#item03

Scribe problem: the name 'FYI' does not match any of the 14 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Diego Unknown Al Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Alessio Cartocci Unknown Simone Unknown Dimitar Unknown Janina Michael Rawling Toshihiko Yamakami Unknown Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown FYI: http://www.w3.org/2008/02/19-xhtml-minutes.html#item03 [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

13:38:56 <yamx> Roland: Jan 28 is the most recent for Role attribute.

Roland Merrick: Jan 28 is the most recent for Role attribute. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:38:59 <Roland_> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080128/

Roland Merrick: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080128/ ←

13:39:01 <oedipus> contains discussion of Role from yesterday

Unknown oedipus: contains discussion of Role from yesterday ←

13:39:32 <yamx> Al: did not understand the conventions...

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: did not understand the conventions... [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:39:49 <yamx> Al: in red? deleted items?

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: in red? deleted items? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:40:05 <yamx> Al: other issues definitions of the predefined roles.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: other issues definitions of the predefined roles. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:40:31 <yamx> Roland: available as chameleon, both are available.

Roland Merrick: available as chameleon, both are available. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:40:50 <yamx> Al: chameleon, not a practice in namespace..

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: chameleon, not a practice in namespace.. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:40:53 <yamx> Al: you can.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: you can. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:41:11 <oedipus> you SHOULD, i believe is the term

Unknown oedipus: you SHOULD, i believe is the term ←

13:41:13 <yamx> Roland: could be embedded into their namespaces.

Roland Merrick: could be embedded into their namespaces. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:41:33 <yamx> Roland: there are three possibilities.

Roland Merrick: there are three possibilities. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:41:59 <yamx> Al: understand from the perspectives.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: understand from the perspectives. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:42:15 <yamx> Al: SVG has problems..

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: SVG has problems.. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:42:33 <yamx> Al: newsML has choices, three choices.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: newsML has choices, three choices. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:43:08 <yamx> Al: attributes does not obtain the namespace of element.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: attributes does not obtain the namespace of element. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:43:23 <oedipus> NewsML: http://www.newsml.org/

Scribe problem: the name 'NewsML' does not match any of the 14 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Diego Unknown Al Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Alessio Cartocci Unknown Simone Unknown Dimitar Unknown Janina Michael Rawling Toshihiko Yamakami Unknown Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown NewsML: http://www.newsml.org/ [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

13:43:25 <MichaelC_VCE> q+ to ask about namespace of attribute value

Unknown MichaelC_VCE: q+ to ask about namespace of attribute value ←

13:43:39 <yamx> Roland: first discussion, how you do in your namespaces.

Roland Merrick: first discussion, how you do in your namespaces. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:44:11 <yamx> Al: we don't have anything to talk about, at the moment.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: we don't have anything to talk about, at the moment. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:44:22 <yamx> Roland: values of role attributes, the second discussion.

Roland Merrick: values of role attributes, the second discussion. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:44:47 <yamx> Al: talk about the semantics of predefined values.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: talk about the semantics of predefined values. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:45:21 <yamx> Al: Micheal how those values are understood. Al, for application semantics.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: Micheal how those values are understood. Al, for application semantics. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:45:36 <yamx> Roland: semantics, first to cover Al's.

Roland Merrick: semantics, first to cover Al's. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:46:23 <oedipus> semantics at the "grossest" level

Unknown oedipus: semantics at the "grossest" level ←

13:46:26 <oedipus> yes that was shane

Unknown oedipus: yes that was shane ←

13:46:34 <yamx> Roland: Section 3. predefined values, starting from banner.

Roland Merrick: Section 3. predefined values, starting from banner. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:47:24 <yamx> Al: processing api binding layer, to me, semantics of the role attributes. need to be understood there.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: processing api binding layer, to me, semantics of the role attributes. need to be understood there. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:48:03 <yamx> Shane: it is great, but not in role attr spec, but in accessibility spec.

Unknown Shane: it is great, but not in role attr spec, but in accessibility spec. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:48:19 <yamx> Roland: semantic container.

Roland Merrick: semantic container. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:48:35 <yamx> Al: functionally, working.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: functionally, working. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:49:26 <yamx> Al: synchronized about those approaches.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: synchronized about those approaches. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:49:57 <yamx> Roland: must be machine processible, one of them should be RDFa. yesterda discussion.

Roland Merrick: must be machine processible, one of them should be RDFa. yesterda discussion. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:50:01 <ShaneM> New version of xhtml-access with requirement for @activate override is up at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-access-20080220/

Unknown ShaneM: New version of xhtml-access with requirement for @activate override is up at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-access-20080220/ ←

13:50:27 <yamx> Al: banner. entire front matter of web pages needed.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: banner. entire front matter of web pages needed. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:50:46 <Simone>  s/yesterda/yesterday

Unknown Simone: s/yesterda/yesterday ←

13:50:50 <ShaneM> Note that it is formatted as a FPWG not an ED.  I will fix that.

Unknown ShaneM: Note that it is formatted as a FPWG not an ED. I will fix that. ←

13:51:48 <yamx> Al: basically same idea, but how clearly explain to humans..

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: basically same idea, but how clearly explain to humans.. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:52:13 <yamx> Micheal: need rewording.

Unknown Micheal: need rewording. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:52:38 <yamx> Micheal: English problem (British English, American ), some sort of clarifications.

Unknown Micheal: English problem (British English, American ), some sort of clarifications. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:53:09 <yamx> Al: designers with span, div, ... we have to talk to those people.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: designers with span, div, ... we have to talk to those people. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:53:35 <yamx> Al: historically, came from Rich.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: historically, came from Rich. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:54:14 <GerrieS> Good morning

Scribe problem: the name 'GerrieS' does not match any of the 14 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Diego Unknown Al Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Alessio Cartocci Unknown Simone Unknown Dimitar Unknown Janina Michael Rawling Toshihiko Yamakami Unknown Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown GerrieS: Good morning ←

13:54:14 <yamx> Shane: you can edit anything there. XHTML-WG has no stick to these wordings.

Unknown Shane: you can edit anything there. XHTML-WG has no stick to these wordings. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:54:16 <ShaneM> rewrite the role definitions, please!!!

Unknown ShaneM: rewrite the role definitions, please!!! ←

13:54:56 <yamx> Micheal: we can work tomorrow.

Unknown Micheal: we can work tomorrow. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:55:16 <GerrieS> Skype?

Unknown GerrieS: Skype? ←

13:55:37 <GerrieS> gshults

Unknown GerrieS: gshults ←

13:55:40 <yamx> Al: not much on contentinfo. needs a use case.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: not much on contentinfo. needs a use case. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:56:21 <yamx> Al: role for collecting meta data.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: role for collecting meta data. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:56:33 <ShaneM> Note that the xhtml 2 working group hoped to take role to last call very soon, so if you all could give us updated text this week it would be AWESOME!

Unknown ShaneM: Note that the xhtml 2 working group hoped to take role to last call very soon, so if you all could give us updated text this week it would be AWESOME! ←

13:56:45 <yamx> Al: no strong problem the way handled in contentinfo.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: no strong problem the way handled in contentinfo. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:57:37 <yamx> Roland: definition.

Roland Merrick: definition. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:58:41 <yamx> Micheal: confused.

Unknown Micheal: confused. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:59:03 <yamx> Al: context of symbol (dfn in this case).

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: context of symbol (dfn in this case). [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:59:16 <ShaneM> Use case of definition might be having a user agent create a glossary via role that I can pick from when reading a document.

Unknown ShaneM: Use case of definition might be having a user agent create a glossary via role that I can pick from when reading a document. ←

13:59:52 <yamx> Al: we don't need role to reproduce dfn..

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: we don't need role to reproduce dfn.. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

13:59:53 <oedipus> al, are you talking about <dfn id="wai-ex"><acronym title="Web Accessibility Initiative">WAI</acronym></dfn>

Unknown oedipus: al, are you talking about <dfn id="wai-ex"><acronym title="Web Accessibility Initiative">WAI</acronym></dfn> ←

14:00:02 <oedipus> as a reuse method?

Unknown oedipus: as a reuse method? ←

14:00:43 <yamx> Al: Michel's point is how we can make future-proof. interesting point.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: Michel's point is how we can make future-proof. interesting point. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:01:02 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/#defining

Unknown oedipus: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/#defining ←

14:01:10 <yamx> Al: host-language specific definition.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: host-language specific definition. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:01:16 <oedipus> (it's on the HTML5 issues list for friday)

Unknown oedipus: (it's on the HTML5 issues list for friday) ←

14:01:29 <yamx> Roland: regend example.

Roland Merrick: regend example. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:01:38 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/#the-dfn

Unknown oedipus: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/#the-dfn ←

14:02:55 <yamx> Michel: OK about Al's argument.

Scribe problem: the name 'Michel' does not match any of the 14 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Diego Unknown Al Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Alessio Cartocci Unknown Simone Unknown Dimitar Unknown Janina Michael Rawling Toshihiko Yamakami Unknown Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Michel: OK about Al's argument. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:04:03 <yamx> Roland: next one is main.

Roland Merrick: next one is main. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:04:53 <yamx> Al: main content may be multiple pages.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: main content may be multiple domains. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:05:16 <yamx> s/pages/domains/

14:05:36 <yamx> Al: four or five top stories.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: four or five top stories. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:06:42 <yamx> Al: Action: Al to address grouping main content in one region as much as possible, in best practices.

ACTION: Al to address grouping main content in one region as much as possible, in best practices. ←

14:06:51 <yamx> s/Al: Action/Action/

14:07:24 <yamx> Roland: moving on navigation.

Roland Merrick: moving on navigation. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:07:53 <yamx> Al: hot keys, ..

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: hot keys, .. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:09:27 <yamx> Al: focus and fire.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: focus and fire. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:10:18 <yamx> Al: browsers provide hotkey to go to navigation, all blocks in somewhere,not any case, unique.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: browsers provide hotkey to go to navigation, all blocks in somewhere,not any case, unique. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:10:27 <yamx> Al: any issues with navigation? No.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: any issues with navigation? No. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:10:36 <yamx> Roland: next, note.

Roland Merrick: next, note. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:11:34 <yamx> Al: they are sections.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: they are sections. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:11:46 <yamx> Al: main thing about note, bidirectional navigation by user agent.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: main thing about note, bidirectional navigation by user agent. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:12:16 <yamx> Micheal: how you can attach note?

Unknown Micheal: how you can attach note? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:12:35 <yamx> Micheal: how about inline note?

Unknown Micheal: how about inline note? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:12:43 <yamx> Al: Hmmm.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: Hmmm. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:14:52 <yamx> Shane: i want user agent to  suppress the inline note.

Unknown Shane: i want user agent to suppress the inline note. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:15:53 <yamx> Al: describing three predefined note configuration to cope with diverse user needs.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: describing three predefined note configuration to cope with diverse user needs. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:15:59 <oedipus> GJR: endnote different from footnote -- i would assign them different audio cues

Scribe problem: the name 'GJR' does not match any of the 14 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Diego Unknown Al Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Alessio Cartocci Unknown Simone Unknown Dimitar Unknown Janina Michael Rawling Toshihiko Yamakami Unknown Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown GJR: endnote different from footnote -- i would assign them different audio cues [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

14:16:11 <oedipus> GJR: explanatory versus reference notes

Unknown GJR: explanatory versus reference notes [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

14:17:45 <yamx> Roland: decribing Appendix C to Al.

Roland Merrick: decribing Appendix C to Al. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:17:53 <yamx> .. Taxonomy part.

Unknown yamx: .. Taxonomy part. ←

14:18:19 <yamx> Al: we are OK with note.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: we are OK with note. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:18:34 <yamx> Roland: next is search.

Roland Merrick: next is search. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:19:04 <yamx> Roland: you can wordsmith..

Roland Merrick: you can wordsmith.. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:19:17 <yamx> Al: we can wordsmith, but general idea is agreed.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: we can wordsmith, but general idea is agreed. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:19:22 <yamx> Roland: next is secondary.

Roland Merrick: next is secondary. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:19:47 <yamx> Al: PF should wordsmith.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: PF should wordsmith. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:20:17 <yamx> Al: separate work. It matters how you word.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: separate work. It matters how you word. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:20:41 <yamx> Al: norole.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: norole. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:20:51 <yamx> Al: no role attribute.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: no role attribute. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:21:26 <yamx> Al: PF assignment for seealso.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: PF assignment for seealso. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:22:05 <yamx> Al: PF will make a status report at the end of this week, about wordsmithing these.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: PF will make a status report at the end of this week, about wordsmithing these. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:23:09 <yamx> Al: PF recognized the Shane's shout about "we are close to last call, give us the updated text this week, then it is AWESOME".

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: PF recognized the Shane's shout about "we are close to last call, give us the updated text this week, then it is AWESOME". [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:24:10 <yamx> Michel: don't understand CURIE , doe not provide prefix.

Unknown Michel: don't understand CURIE , doe not provide prefix. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:24:19 <ShaneM> Role spec says:  If the prefix is omitted from a CURIE, the default value of http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab# MUST be used.

Unknown ShaneM: Role spec says: If the prefix is omitted from a CURIE, the default value of http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab# MUST be used. ←

14:25:57 <yamx> Michel: OK. let me check...

Unknown Micheal: OK. let me check... [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:26:04 <yamx> s/chel/cheal/

14:26:39 <yamx> Micheal: it is not same in HTML. I just want to make sure.

Unknown Micheal: it is not same in HTML5. I just want to make sure. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:26:53 <yamx> s/HTML/HTML5/

14:27:18 <yamx> Micheal: do we have future harmonization? or differences.

Unknown Micheal: do we have future harmonization? or differences. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:28:38 <yamx> Michael: three choices, do nothing, to this name space, the third, basically aria role.

Michael Rawling: three choices, do nothing, to this name space, the third, basically aria role. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:29:09 <yamx> Al: browsers do no namespace versions.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: browsers do no namespace versions. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:29:35 <yamx> Al: we decided to put up with them.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: we decided to put up with them. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:30:32 <yamx> Micheal: HTML, ARIA, we cannot use both? they will have the questions..

Unknown Micheal: HTML, ARIA, we cannot use both? they will have the questions.. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:30:56 <ShaneM> I am certain you will get last call objections to this, fwiw.

Unknown ShaneM: I am certain you will get last call objections to this, fwiw. ←

14:31:05 <yamx> Micheal: it could kill our last call...

Unknown Micheal: it could kill our last call... [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:31:44 <ShaneM> I would not object to having the aria role values included in the vocab# vocabulary space

Unknown ShaneM: I would not object to having the aria role values included in the vocab# vocabulary space ←

14:33:36 <yamx> Micheal: this is the name space with XHTML, not html/1999.

Unknown Micheal: this is the name space with XHTML, not html/1999. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:33:59 <yamx> Micheal: it is completely separate. so we can deal with it. Not the issue with HTML5.

Unknown Micheal: it is completely separate. so we can deal with it. Not the issue with HTML5. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:34:12 <yamx> Shane: it is vacab space.

Unknown Shane: it is vacab name space. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:34:19 <yamx> s/space/name space/

14:34:51 <yamx> Roland: they defined in role attribute spec are usable without any prefix.

Roland Merrick: they defined in role attribute spec are usable without any prefix. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:37:27 <yamx> Roland: our list of predefined can be longer, in response to Michel.

Roland Merrick: our list of predefined can be longer, in response to Micheal. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:37:39 <yamx> s/chel/cheal/

14:37:53 <yamx> Shane: we can dereference by URL.

Unknown Shane: we can dereference by URL. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:38:12 <yamx> Shane: we start populating there.

Unknown Shane: we start populating there. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:39:19 <yamx> Al: agreement in princeple, same way, because developing external doc is. Shane and Micheal are contact points.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: agreement in princeple, same way, because developing external doc is. Shane and Micheal are contact points. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:40:10 <yamx> Micheal: OK, I am happy.

Unknown Micheal: OK, I am happy. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:40:27 <MichaelC_VCE> ack me

Unknown MichaelC_VCE: ack me ←

14:40:33 <yamx> Al: joint meeting is over.

Scribe problem: the name 'Al' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Unknown Al Alessio Cartocci . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Al: joint meeting is over. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:40:37 <yamx> Roland: I would like to check.

Roland Merrick: I would like to check. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:41:03 <yamx> Yam: I think all are covered.

Toshihiko Yamakami: I think all are covered. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:41:07 <yamx> Alessio: OK.

Alessio Cartocci: OK. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:41:10 <yamx> Simone: OK.

Unknown Simone: OK. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

14:41:46 <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes

Roland Merrick: rrsagent, make minutes ←

14:41:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_ ←

14:41:50 <yamx> (joint meeting adjourned.)

Unknown yamx: (joint meeting adjourned.) ←

14:42:22 <Roland_> break now, reconvene in 20mins in separate groups

Roland Merrick: break now, reconvene in 20mins in separate groups ←

14:44:04 <oedipus> simone, do you want to resume in 20 minutes?

Unknown oedipus: simone, do you want to resume in 20 minutes? ←

14:48:02 <ShaneM> I suggest Tesla - wake me up

Unknown ShaneM: I suggest Tesla - wake me up ←

14:48:41 <oedipus> either that or anything by the ramones....

Unknown oedipus: either that or anything by the ramones.... ←

15:01:14 <oedipus> FYI: http://www.daisy.org/z3986/2005/Z3986-2005.html#Skip "skippable" structures

(No events recorded for 12 minutes)

Unknown FYI: http://www.daisy.org/z3986/2005/Z3986-2005.html#Skip "skippable" structures [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

15:03:29 <oedipus> DAISY defines 2 types of notes - "noterefS" and "annorefS" http://www.daisy.org/z3986/2005/Z3986-2005.html#Notes

Unknown oedipus: DAISY defines 2 types of notes - "noterefS" and "annorefS" http://www.daisy.org/z3986/2005/Z3986-2005.html#Notes ←

15:07:59 <oedipus> zcorpan, http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-irc for the joint session

Unknown oedipus: zcorpan, http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-irc for the joint session ←

15:08:19 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html

Unknown oedipus: http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html ←

15:17:57 <oedipus> sounds as if simone's machine is in the PF room

(No events recorded for 9 minutes)

Unknown oedipus: sounds as if simone's machine is in the PF room ←

15:18:51 <myakura> protocols and formats?

Scribe problem: the name 'myakura' does not match any of the 14 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Diego Unknown Al Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Alessio Cartocci Unknown Simone Unknown Dimitar Unknown Janina Michael Rawling Toshihiko Yamakami Unknown Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown myakura: protocols and formats? ←

15:19:17 <oedipus> tasked with reviewing all specs that are accepted by w3c for accessibility issues/concerns

Unknown oedipus: tasked with reviewing all specs that are accepted by w3c for accessibility issues/concerns ←

15:19:36 <oedipus> also developing ARIA (http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/)

Unknown oedipus: also developing ARIA (http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/) ←

15:20:06 <GerrieS> The joint meeting was held on their turf, then?

Unknown GerrieS: The joint meeting was held on their turf, then? ←

15:20:25 <oedipus> i'm not quite sure -- i heard a bunch of PF voices, but they may be moving

Unknown oedipus: i'm not quite sure -- i heard a bunch of PF voices, but they may be moving ←

15:20:54 <oedipus> steven, i'm still carrying gerrie and shane on skype -- do you want me to try you again?

Unknown oedipus: steven, i'm still carrying gerrie and shane on skype -- do you want me to try you again? ←

15:21:00 <Steven> yes please

Unknown Steven: yes please ←

15:22:09 <Steven> sounds like you are in a zoo

Unknown Steven: sounds like you are in a zoo ←

15:22:16 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

Unknown Steven: rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:22:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

15:22:27 <oedipus> it's the sound of 2 WGs breaking up

Unknown oedipus: it's the sound of 2 WGs breaking up ←

15:22:42 <Steven> is it all over then?

Unknown Steven: is it all over then? ←

15:22:49 <GerrieS> Isn't that hard to do? :-)

Unknown GerrieS: Isn't that hard to do? :-) ←

15:22:56 <Steven> lol

Unknown Steven: lol ←

15:23:11 <oedipus> i'm not sure where simone is...

Unknown oedipus: i'm not sure where simone is... ←

15:23:32 <oedipus> we were going to reconvene separately after the afternoon break

Unknown oedipus: we were going to reconvene separately after the afternoon break ←

15:26:27 <Roland_> restarting . . .

Roland Merrick: restarting . . . ←

15:26:31 <yamx> (we are back from photo-taking)

Unknown yamx: (we are back from photo-taking) ←

15:27:45 <yamx> Present: Roland, Alessio, Simone, Yam, Steven.

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane.' does not match any of the 19 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami

15:27:47 <Steven> lost sound

Steven Pemberton: lost sound ←

15:28:08 <oedipus> that's because simone dropped -- i'll call her

Scribe problem: the name 'oedipus' does not match any of the 9 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Alessio Cartocci Unknown Simone Toshihiko Yamakami Steven Pemberton Unknown Shane. Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown oedipus: that's because simone dropped -- i'll call her ←

15:28:08 <yamx> s/Steven/Steven, Shane/

15:28:12 <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes

Roland Merrick: rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:28:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_ ←

15:28:19 <yamx> s/Shane/Shane, Gregory./

15:29:21 <Steven> gregory, I hear your screen reader

Steven Pemberton: gregory, I hear your screen reader ←

15:29:26 <Steven> I assume it's yours

Steven Pemberton: I assume it's yours ←

15:29:35 <oedipus> i just muted -- sorry

Unknown oedipus: i just muted -- sorry ←

15:29:56 <oedipus> simone, you need to add gerrie now that you're host

Unknown oedipus: simone, you need to add gerrie now that you're host ←

15:30:15 <Simone> ok

Unknown Simone: ok ←

15:31:10 <oedipus> thanks we're all back on, i think

Unknown oedipus: thanks we're all back on, i think ←

15:31:57 <Roland_> Present: Roland, Alessio, Simone, Yam, Steven, Shane, Gregory

15:32:16 <Roland_> Present: Roland, Alessio, Simone, Yam, Steven, Shane, Gregory, Gerrie

15:32:38 <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes

Roland Merrick: rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:32:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_ ←

15:32:59 <yamx0> Topic: roadmap

8. roadmap

15:34:06 <oedipus> no, we can hear you, simone

Gregory Rosmaita: no, we can hear you, simone ←

15:34:06 <Roland_> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml-roadmap/

Roland Merrick: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml-roadmap/ ←

15:35:12 <Steven> Yes

Steven Pemberton: Yes ←

15:35:14 <Steven> the TAG

Steven Pemberton: the TAG ←

15:35:15 <yamx0> Shane: someone raised XHTML media type?

Scribe problem: the name 'yamx0' does not match any of the 11 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Alessio Cartocci Unknown Simone Toshihiko Yamakami Steven Pemberton Shane McCarron Gregory Rosmaita Gerrie Shults Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Shane McCarron: someone raised XHTML media type? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx0 ] ←

15:35:27 <Steven> hmm

Steven Pemberton: hmm ←

15:35:32 <Steven> let me try and remember

Steven Pemberton: let me try and remember ←

15:35:38 <oedipus> it might have been on their blog

Gregory Rosmaita: it might have been on their blog ←

15:35:41 <oedipus> or wiki

Gregory Rosmaita: or wiki ←

15:35:42 <Steven> Just a moment, looking

Steven Pemberton: Just a moment, looking ←

15:36:38 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/selfDescribingDocuments#UsingRDFa

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/selfDescribingDocuments#UsingRDFa ←

15:36:50 <Steven> Note: at this time, drafts of the [RDFa] specification are available, but the media-type registration for HTML itself has not been updated to reflect RDFa. As described in TAG Finding [AuthoritativeMetadata], conventions like RDFa are normative only if provided for in the applicable specification for the media-type in which they are used. Thus, for RDFa to be fully integrated with 2 The Web's Standard Retrieval Algorithm, the HTML and/or XHTML media-type regist

Scribe problem: the name 'Note' does not match any of the 11 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Alessio Cartocci Unknown Simone Toshihiko Yamakami Steven Pemberton Shane McCarron Gregory Rosmaita Gerrie Shults Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Note: at this time, drafts of the [RDFa] specification are available, but the media-type registration for HTML itself has not been updated to reflect RDFa. As described in TAG Finding [AuthoritativeMetadata], conventions like RDFa are normative only if provided for in the applicable specification for the media-type in which they are used. Thus, for RDFa to be fully integrated with 2 The Web's Standard Retrieval Algorithm, the HTML and/or XHTML media-type regist [ Scribe Assist by Steven Pemberton ] ←

15:37:09 <Steven> I don't agree either

Steven Pemberton: I don't agree either ←

15:37:18 <Steven> Yes, I agree Shane

Steven Pemberton: Yes, I agree Shane ←

15:37:24 <Steven> I disagree with this comment fromthe TAG

Steven Pemberton: I disagree with this comment fromthe TAG ←

15:37:49 <Steven> This doc (selfdescribingdocs) is currently open for comments

Steven Pemberton: This doc (selfdescribingdocs) is currently open for comments ←

15:38:05 <Steven> so we should send in an official comment from the group

Steven Pemberton: so we should send in an official comment from the group ←

15:38:15 <Steven> I;m willing to word it

Steven Pemberton: I;m willing to word it ←

15:38:23 <Steven> I'll send a draft to the group

Steven Pemberton: I'll send a draft to the group ←

15:38:27 <yamx0> ACTION: Steven to reply to TAG that we disagree.

ACTION: Steven to reply to TAG that we disagree. ←

15:38:46 <yamx0> Roland: Shane, any other RDFa issues?

Roland Merrick: Shane, any other RDFa issues? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx0 ] ←

15:38:54 <yamx0> Shane: no.

Shane McCarron: no. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx0 ] ←

15:39:43 <yamx> Roland: let's check roadmap and call the f2f week over.

Scribe problem: the name 'yamx' does not match any of the 11 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Alessio Cartocci Unknown Simone Toshihiko Yamakami Steven Pemberton Shane McCarron Gregory Rosmaita Gerrie Shults Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Roland Merrick: let's check roadmap and call the f2f week over. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:40:04 <yamx> Roland: minor comments from WAI today.

Roland Merrick: minor comments from WAI today. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:40:19 <yamx> Roland: do they prevent us from going to last call?

Roland Merrick: do they prevent us from going to last call? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:40:41 <Steven> +1

Steven Pemberton: +1 ←

15:40:45 <yamx> Shane: completing access module. Can go to last call any time you want.

Shane McCarron: completing access module. Can go to last call any time you want. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:40:53 <oedipus> +1 with edits from today

Gregory Rosmaita: +1 with edits from today ←

15:41:10 <ShaneM> Edits from today are http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-access-20080220/

Shane McCarron: Edits from today are http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-access-20080220/ ←

15:41:13 <Roland_> can we resolve to go to Last Call for ACCESS Module?

Roland Merrick: can we resolve to go to Last Call for ACCESS Module? ←

15:41:17 <ShaneM> so I think we are ready to go.  +1 from me.

Shane McCarron: so I think we are ready to go. +1 from me. ←

15:41:28 <yamx> Roland: with no objections, we go forward to access module last call.

Roland Merrick: with no objections, we go forward to access module last call. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:41:33 <alessio> +1

Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←

15:41:40 <yamx> RESOLUTION: we agreed to go access module last call.

RESOLVED: we agreed to go access module last call. ←

15:43:15 <yamx> Roland: next one is xFrame.

Roland Merrick: next one is xFrame. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:43:52 <yamx> Alessio: starting some tests, embedding XHTML2 pages..

Alessio Cartocci: starting some tests, embedding XHTML2 pages.. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:43:52 <yamx> Roland: we cannot go last call Feb 2008 for xFrames, apprarently.. quite a lot things to cover.

Roland Merrick: we cannot go last call Feb 2008 for xFrames, apprarently.. quite a lot things to cover. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:43:52 <yamx> Roland: how about April 2008?

Roland Merrick: how about April 2008? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:44:23 <yamx> Roland: how about June, we can do something early if we are comfortable.

Roland Merrick: how about June, we can do something early if we are comfortable. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:44:40 <yamx> Yam: it is too optimistic that we can make last call without f2f.

Toshihiko Yamakami: it is too optimistic that we can make last call without f2f. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:45:03 <ShaneM> did we get committment from WAI fols for new Role text this week?

Shane McCarron: did we get committment from WAI fols for new Role text this week? ←

15:45:19 <yamx> Roland: we agreed to move the last call xFrames to June 2008. No need for resolution to change the date.

Roland Merrick: we agreed to move the last call xFrames to June 2008. No need for resolution to change the date. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:45:33 <yamx> Roland: what the date for last call XML Events 2, Shane?

Roland Merrick: what the date for last call XML Events 2, Shane? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:46:05 <yamx> Shane: hopefully in weeks.

Shane McCarron: hopefully in weeks. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:46:13 <yamx> Roland: XML Event 2 schedule as it is.

Roland Merrick: XML Event 2 schedule as it is. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:46:15 <oedipus> shane, i began to alert the masses (those most interested in Role in PFWG)

Gregory Rosmaita: shane, i began to alert the masses (those most interested in Role in PFWG) ←

15:46:44 <yamx> Roland: XHTML2, just "2008". not yet to describe any more detailed date.

Roland Merrick: XHTML2, just "2008". not yet to describe any more detailed date. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:47:18 <yamx> Roland: XHTML Basic 1.1. We are waiting for transition request... Not much use about speculation of exact date.

Roland Merrick: XHTML Basic 1.1. We are waiting for transition request... Not much use about speculation of exact date. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:47:38 <yamx> Roland: RDFa syntax, last call for Feb 2008?

Roland Merrick: RDFa syntax, last call for Feb 2008? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:47:56 <yamx> Shane: we have a last call for 4 weeks.

Shane McCarron: we have a last call for 4 weeks. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:48:23 <yamx> Roland: last call date is tomorrow. 2 month behind from Dec 2007.

Roland Merrick: last call date is tomorrow. 2 month behind from Dec 2007. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:48:35 <ShaneM> Note that RDFa does NOT have a schema implementation in it.  I think that is editorial but it would be really nice oif we could get M12N done....

Shane McCarron: Note that RDFa does NOT have a schema implementation in it. I think that is editorial but it would be really nice oif we could get M12N done.... ←

15:48:51 <yamx> Roland: reasonable to delay all schedule for two months?

Roland Merrick: reasonable to delay all schedule for two months? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:49:24 <yamx> Shane: fine with 2 months shift.

Shane McCarron: fine with 2 months shift. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:49:24 <yamx> Roland: how about Primer?

Roland Merrick: how about Primer? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:49:47 <yamx> Shane: simplify more with comments.

Shane McCarron: simplify more with comments. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:50:37 <ShaneM> LOL

Shane McCarron: LOL ←

15:51:12 <yamx> Roland: Primer is not normative, no last call. we ignore them.

Roland Merrick: Primer is not normative, no last call. we ignore them. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:51:18 <yamx> Roland: M12N.

Roland Merrick: M12N. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:51:27 <yamx> Roland: we are optimistic?

Roland Merrick: we are optimistic? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:51:58 <Steven> sorry I was muted

Steven Pemberton: sorry I was muted ←

15:52:09 <Steven> I think we can be moderately optimistic

Steven Pemberton: I think we can be moderately optimistic ←

15:52:24 <yamx> Roland: M12N is in transition request, we will just see what will happen to them.

Roland Merrick: M12N is in transition request, we will just see what will happen to them. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:52:57 <Steven> I got a comment from Steve Bratt noting some problems with the spec that have now been fixed

Steven Pemberton: I got a comment from Steve Bratt noting some problems with the spec that have now been fixed ←

15:53:05 <yamx> Roland: role, when ready for 2nd last call, Shane?

Roland Merrick: role, when ready for 2nd last call, Shane? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:53:08 <Steven> I think we can have a transition call soon

Steven Pemberton: I think we can have a transition call soon ←

15:53:22 <ShaneM> ACTION:  Shane to ensure all Role attribute module changes are complete by 28 February - including new text from WAI folks.

ACTION: Shane to ensure all Role attribute module changes are complete by 28 February - including new text from WAI folks. ←

15:54:09 <yamx> Roland: month of March, should be OK.

Roland Merrick: month of March, should be OK. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:54:33 <yamx> Roland: CURIE syntax.

Roland Merrick: CURIE syntax. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:54:49 <yamx> Roland: just entering last call.

Roland Merrick: just entering last call. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:55:16 <yamx> Roland: we have to see what we will receive during last call. Then, we can decide on the future of CURIE.

Roland Merrick: we have to see what we will receive during last call. Then, we can decide on the future of CURIE. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:55:19 <yamx> Roland: no update on the dates.

Roland Merrick: no update on the dates. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:55:51 <yamx> Roland: the request is processed, we have to fix, but now it is just to be processed.

Roland Merrick: the request is processed, we have to fix, but now it is just to be processed. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:55:59 <yamx> Roland: done on roadmap.

Roland Merrick: done on roadmap. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:56:18 <yamx> Topic: f2f meeting plan.

9. f2f meeting plan.

15:56:37 <yamx> Roland: CANN with TPAC in october.

Roland Merrick: Cannes with TPAC in october. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:56:44 <Steven> Cannes

Steven Pemberton: Cannes ←

15:56:49 <yamx> s/CANN/Cannes/

15:57:08 <yamx> Yam: I cannot join TPAC with overlapped OMA. Regrets.

Toshihiko Yamakami: I cannot join TPAC with overlapped OMA. Regrets. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:57:11 <Steven> Need a location still for June (is it?)

Steven Pemberton: Need a location still for June (is it?) ←

15:57:44 <yamx> Roland: next f2f , June 16-18, current plannning, in U.S.A.

Roland Merrick: next f2f , June 16-18, current plannning, in U.S.A. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:57:51 <oedipus> steven, weren't you going to ask google if they could host us in NYC?

Gregory Rosmaita: steven, weren't you going to ask google if they could host us in NYC? ←

15:57:57 <yamx> Roland: we have to narrow down a little. options...

Roland Merrick: we have to narrow down a little. options... [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:58:04 <ShaneM> I could also host in Minneapolis

Shane McCarron: I could also host in Minneapolis ←

15:58:14 <Steven> I vote for Shanesville

Steven Pemberton: I vote for Shanesville ←

15:58:30 <yamx> Roland: New York, suggested, but cannot verify.

Roland Merrick: New York, suggested, but cannot verify. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

15:58:31 <oedipus> if you're going to go to minneapolis, june is the right time

Gregory Rosmaita: if you're going to go to minneapolis, june is the right time ←

15:58:36 <Steven> what were the dates again?

Steven Pemberton: what were the dates again? ←

15:58:45 <yamx> JUne 16-18.

Unknown yamx: June 16-18. ←

15:58:48 <Steven> There is an IBM in NY

Steven Pemberton: There is an IBM in NY ←

15:58:52 <Steven> NY State

Steven Pemberton: NY State ←

15:58:55 <yamx> s/JU/Ju

15:59:03 <yamx> s/JU/Ju/

15:59:39 <Steven> I like Shane's thinking :-)

Steven Pemberton: I like Shane's thinking :-) ←

15:59:54 <yamx> (we talked about Mon-Wed, or Tue-Thu).

Unknown yamx: (we talked about Mon-Wed, or Tue-Thu). ←

16:00:01 <yamx> Shane: no problem for hosting.

Shane McCarron: no problem for hosting. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

16:00:07 <Steven> Cool

Steven Pemberton: Cool ←

16:00:28 <oedipus> steven, the IBM watson research center in hawthorne, new york?

Gregory Rosmaita: steven, the IBM watson research center in hawthorne, new york? ←

16:00:35 <Steven> yes

Steven Pemberton: yes ←

16:00:35 <ShaneM> Minneapolis - probably downtown somewhere.  not out where I am.  Its dead out here.

Shane McCarron: Minneapolis - probably downtown somewhere. not out where I am. Its dead out here. ←

16:00:42 <yamx> Roland: could you just warn where your location is, Shane?

Roland Merrick: could you just warn where your location is, Shane? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

16:00:44 <Steven> We have contacts there

Steven Pemberton: We have contacts there ←

16:01:03 <oedipus> http://www.watson.ibm.com/general_info_haw.shtml

Gregory Rosmaita: http://www.watson.ibm.com/general_info_haw.shtml ←

16:01:22 <yamx> Shane: June 17-19, proposing.

Shane McCarron: June 17-19, proposing. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

16:01:38 <ShaneM> There are non stops to minneapolis from london, amsterdam, and tokyo

Shane McCarron: There are non stops to minneapolis from london, amsterdam, and tokyo ←

16:02:00 <Steven> well, perfect then

Steven Pemberton: well, perfect then ←

16:02:02 <yamx> Really?

Unknown yamx: Really? ←

16:02:06 <yamx> to Tokyo?

Unknown yamx: to Tokyo? ←

16:02:12 <yamx> Are you sure?

Unknown yamx: Are you sure? ←

16:02:18 <yamx> every day in a week?

Unknown yamx: every day in a week? ←

16:02:43 <yamx> Roland: IBM location for alternative?

Roland Merrick: IBM location for alternative? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

16:02:53 <oedipus> http://www.watson.ibm.com/general_info_haw.shtml

Gregory Rosmaita: http://www.watson.ibm.com/general_info_haw.shtml ←

16:03:13 <Steven> Yes, Northwest

Steven Pemberton: Yes, Northwest ←

16:04:11 <ShaneM> I will pick a venue and set up hotel block etc in the next weeks.

Shane McCarron: I will pick a venue and set up hotel block etc in the next weeks. ←

16:04:14 <oedipus> yam, northwest is http://www.nwa.com/

Gregory Rosmaita: yam, northwest is http://www.nwa.com/ ←

16:04:23 <yamx> Roland: everyone happy with Minneapolis for June 17-19(Tue-Thu)?

Roland Merrick: everyone happy with Minneapolis for June 17-19(Tue-Thu)? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

16:04:34 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to set up meeting location for June 17 - 19.

ACTION: Shane to set up meeting location for June 17 - 19. ←

16:05:15 <oedipus> GJR thinks he might actually manage to drag his carcass to minneapolis in june

Gregory Rosmaita: GJR thinks he might actually manage to drag his carcass to minneapolis in june ←

16:05:45 <Steven> woh!

Steven Pemberton: woh! ←

16:05:56 <yamx> Roland: any other business?

Roland Merrick: any other business? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

16:06:01 <oedipus> hide the women, children and farm animals

Gregory Rosmaita: hide the women, children and farm animals ←

16:06:13 <yamx> Topic: AOB(Any other business)

10. AOB(Any other business)

16:06:21 <Steven> Wiki content?

Steven Pemberton: Wiki content? ←

16:06:37 <oedipus> good point, steven - what are the guidelines/rules?

Gregory Rosmaita: good point, steven - what are the guidelines/rules? ←

16:06:43 <Steven> Well, up to us

Steven Pemberton: Well, up to us ←

16:06:52 <ShaneM> there's a wiki?  is it linked to the MarkUp page?

Shane McCarron: there's a wiki? is it linked to the MarkUp page? ←

16:06:57 <Steven> There are some basic pages we need to create

Steven Pemberton: There are some basic pages we need to create ←

16:06:58 <yamx> Roland: Right!

Roland Merrick: Right! [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

16:07:00 <Steven> like About:

Steven Pemberton: like About: ←

16:07:07 <Steven> and the front page

Steven Pemberton: and the front page ←

16:07:19 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/Main_Page

Gregory Rosmaita: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/Main_Page ←

16:07:33 <yamx> Roland: entire content of Wiki is f2f Venice.

Roland Merrick: entire content of Wiki is f2f Venice. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

16:07:41 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/XHTML2:About

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/XHTML2:About ←

16:07:58 <yamx> Roland: what other content? roadmap is in W3C.

Roland Merrick: what other content? roadmap is in W3C. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

16:08:18 <yamx> Roland: Steven, do you have the image of what should we have?

Roland Merrick: Steven, do you have the image of what should we have? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

16:08:25 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/Current_events

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/Current_events ←

16:08:30 <Steven> for news about state of docs

Steven Pemberton: for news about state of docs ←

16:08:43 <Steven> maybe

Steven Pemberton: maybe ←

16:09:17 <yamx> (Roland has some network problems)

Unknown yamx: (Roland has some network problems) ←

16:09:28 <Steven> join the club

Steven Pemberton: join the club ←

16:10:55 <yamx> Roland: we have to think about Wiki communications.

Roland Merrick: we have to think about Wiki communications. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

16:11:19 <yamx> ACTION: Roland to include this Wiki issue in the upcoming teleconf agenda.

ACTION: Roland to include this Wiki issue in the upcoming teleconf agenda. ←

16:11:51 <yamx> Roland: blog?

Roland Merrick: blog? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

16:12:09 <yamx> Roland: it is part of communications.

Roland Merrick: it is part of communications. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

16:12:47 <oedipus> blogs spark as much heat as light...

Gregory Rosmaita: blogs spark as much heat as light... ←

16:13:11 <yamx> Roland: any additional business?

Roland Merrick: any additional business? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

16:13:30 <ShaneM> I could use some time back at my day job.

Shane McCarron: I could use some time back at my day job. ←

16:13:31 <yamx> Roland: any additional thoughts beyond communications (Wiki, blog)?

Roland Merrick: any additional thoughts beyond communications (Wiki, blog)? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

16:13:40 <oedipus> i'll follow up with the PF people on getting verbiage on Role for you by the weekend, shane

Gregory Rosmaita: i'll follow up with the PF people on getting verbiage on Role for you by the weekend, shane ←

16:13:47 <ShaneM> dont tease me

Shane McCarron: dont tease me ←

16:13:57 <oedipus> half of expertise is tease...

Gregory Rosmaita: half of expertise is tease... ←

16:14:19 <ShaneM> only two industries call their customers users.....

Shane McCarron: only two industries call their customers users..... ←

16:14:51 <ShaneM> and have you ever noticed how the word institution is only used for things like asylums AND marriage?  hmmm...

Shane McCarron: and have you ever noticed how the word institution is only used for things like asylums AND marriage? hmmm... ←

16:15:29 <yamx> Alessio: start to encourge XHTML2 implementaions.

Alessio Cartocci: descriging starting to encourge XHTML2 implementaions. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

16:15:40 <yamx> s/start/descriging starting/

16:15:44 <ShaneM> dont we need to know what XHTML 2 is first?

Shane McCarron: dont we need to know what XHTML 2 is first? ←

16:16:01 <yamx> Roland: no one have anything additional.

Roland Merrick: no one in this room have anything additional. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

16:16:08 <oedipus> no thanks for revisiting event yesterday

Gregory Rosmaita: no thanks for revisiting event yesterday ←

16:16:09 <Steven> no

Steven Pemberton: no ←

16:16:10 <yamx> s/no one/no one in this room/

16:16:20 <Steven> dinner?

Steven Pemberton: dinner? ←

16:16:34 <oedipus> keep your foot elevated, steven!

Gregory Rosmaita: keep your foot elevated, steven! ←

16:16:46 <ShaneM> Hell of a meeting folks!

Shane McCarron: Hell of a meeting folks! ←

16:16:58 <yamx> Roland: finished. (after end, we will talk about dinner.)

Roland Merrick: finished. (after end, we will talk about dinner.) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

16:17:19 <GerrieS> I'll be late for dinner!

Gerrie Shults: I'll be late for dinner! ←

16:17:32 <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes

Roland Merrick: rrsagent, make minutes ←

16:17:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_ ←

16:18:02 <yamx> (Done for this week.)

Unknown yamx: (Done for this week.) ←

16:18:05 <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes

Roland Merrick: rrsagent, make minutes ←

16:18:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_ ←

16:18:06 <Steven> Gracie left already

Steven Pemberton: Gracie left already ←

16:18:22 <Steven> what's the deal with dinner?

Steven Pemberton: what's the deal with dinner? ←

16:18:36 <alessio> bye all :)

Alessio Cartocci: bye all :) ←

16:18:42 <Steven> bye

Steven Pemberton: bye ←

16:18:49 <oedipus> thanks to all who scribed -- especially yam -- great job; thanks, alessio, and thanks for the audio, simone!

Gregory Rosmaita: thanks to all who scribed -- especially yam -- great job; thanks, alessio, and thanks for the audio, simone! ←

16:18:50 <Simone> Steven, I hope we back to hotel and then find a place near it :)

Unknown Simone: Steven, I hope we back to hotel and then find a place near it :) ←

16:18:57 <Steven> fab!

Steven Pemberton: fab! ←

16:19:02 <Steven> Grazie Simone

Steven Pemberton: Grazie Simone ←

16:19:18 <Simone> :)

Unknown Simone: :) ←

Formatted by CommonScribe