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08:17:42 <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes
08:17:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
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08:20:15 <Roland__> Zakim, list
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08:23:17 <yamx> (Roland and Yam are here...)
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08:26:48 <yamx> (Steven had a trouble with his foot last night.... He will not be in his room, but will skype in...)
08:27:01 <yamx> s/his room/this room/
08:27:34 <Roland__> Chair: Roland
08:27:39 <Roland__> Scribe: Yam
08:27:57 <Roland__> rrsagent, make minutes
08:27:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland__
08:28:15 <yamx> Topic: XML Events 2 (continued from yesterday)
08:29:59 <oedipus> morning - hope steve's ok...
08:30:20 <yamx> Hope so...
08:30:36 <yamx> His ankle is improved, I heard.
08:30:38 <Roland__> Meeting: XHTML2 WG FtF, Venice, Italy, Day 3
08:30:53 <oedipus> that's good to hear
08:31:30 <Roland__> Present: Roland, Yam, Gregory, Simone
08:32:19 <yamx> Roland: we have some issues stated in Agenda.
08:32:58 <Roland__> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-02-Venice-FtF-Agenda
08:33:27 <Roland__> Regrets: Tina
08:33:48 <Roland__> rrsagent, make minutes
08:33:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland__
08:34:26 <yamx> John's comments in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/29-xhtml-minutes.html#action02 ?
08:35:20 <Roland__> ScribeNick: yamx
08:37:15 <yamx> Roland: I just want to know where we are about actions.
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08:38:44 <yamx> Roland: The first part (we clarified it in capture, target, bubble, default), we changed. So the issue is only action (Mark). 
08:40:40 <yamx> Roland: Resolution on Aug 29 2007 said we have to investigate part 2, in 0011 (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0011)
08:41:34 <yamx> Roland: We make default as bubble, but bubble includes "bubble" and "target" phases, so it is OK with the original issue.
08:42:38 <oedipus> roland, are you referring to jon's point: "if the bubble phase does exclude the target phase, then it seems like you will need a way to say target+bubble.  For symmetry, I'll bet you need capture+target too.  The only names that come to mind right now are"ascent" (target+bubble) and "descent" (capture+target)."
08:46:12 <Roland__> yesterday we concluded that bubble phase includes the target phase. I am now looking to find where in the DOM 3 Events specs that is says this.
08:53:30 <yamx> Roland: In DOM3 Event, on addEventListener, useCapture parameter is a boolean.
08:54:21 <yamx> Roland: , which means "capture" or "target and bubbling". only one of them.
08:54:43 <Roland__> Section 1.6  Basic interfaces -- http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html#Events-interface
08:55:36 <yamx> Roland: it is not so clear, but seems implied.
08:56:17 <yamx> Roland: All the changes we made deal with 0011 raised by John.
08:57:06 <Roland__> Present: Alessio
08:57:06 <yamx> Roland: next issue is 0012 (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0012)
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08:58:24 <ShaneM> I think 0012 is somewhat incorrect.  xml events 2 DOES specify a context.
08:58:36 <ShaneM> see section 6.
08:58:36 <Roland__> rrsagent, make minutes
08:58:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland__
09:04:01 <yamx> Roland: I remembered some discussion with XForms; they added context attribute.
09:04:29 <yamx> Roland: maybe it is interesting to add context attribute if necessary, but not before we fix the current draft.
09:05:29 <yamx> Roland: we keep it as it is, we have to further investigate the issue (do we really need this "context" attribute) in XML Events 2.
09:06:10 <yamx> Roland: We defined the context in Sectoin 6 in XML Events 2.
09:06:48 <yamx> Roland: Specifying context will be added if we identify any useful use cases.
09:07:05 <yamx> Roland: Add a note about this (considering in the future in action element).
09:07:09 <yamx> Shane: OK.
09:07:25 <yamx> Roland: 0012 is done.
09:07:55 <yamx> Roland: next issue is 0013 (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0013)
09:08:13 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to add text about context issue near where if and while are described with the action element in xml events 2
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09:14:25 <yamx> Roland: we think that event does not traverse to more than one DOM.
09:14:40 <yamx> Roland: spelled out single DOM.
09:15:47 <Roland__> John's note includes : Therefore, for the sake of clarity, please spell out the fact that the  
09:15:48 <Roland__> spec does not define any bubbling behavior between two DOMs and that  
09:15:48 <Roland__> events don't traverse more than one DOM unless a consumer of XML events  
09:15:48 <Roland__> defines a mechanism for dispatching events in one DOM based on the  
09:15:48 <Roland__> occurrence of events in another DOM. 
09:16:31 <Roland__> I would have expected that a "single DOM" was assumed but it appears not to be the case.
09:17:27 <alessio> simone is coming back soon
09:17:56 <yamx> Roland: no harm to put a small note about single DOM, not bridging two DOMs.
09:18:04 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane add a note that events do not bridge two DOMs
09:18:05 <Roland__> We could add a note to make it clear that the capture/bubbling is within the scope of a single DOM.
09:18:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Steven-eee
09:18:46 <Roland__> Present: Steven
09:19:08 <Steven-eee> s/:/+/
09:19:27 <alessio> Hope you're feeling better, Steven...
09:20:57 <Steven-eee> it is even better than first thing this morning Alessio, so I am optimitic
09:21:02 <Steven-eee> stic
09:21:22 <yamx> Roland: looking into the second problem in 0013.
09:22:31 <yamx> (the second issue is "For the second problem, I have to turn to the xforms repeat construct, and put a repeat within a repeat:)
09:22:44 <yamx> s/t:)/t:")
09:22:47 <Roland__> Present: Roland, Yam, Allessio, Simone, Gregory, Shane
09:25:33 <Steven-eee> Present+Steven
09:26:02 <yamx> Roland: we will probably solve the second issue, too. Hope John will review the latest spec to find out whether his issue is fixed.
09:26:30 <yamx> Roland: we think we fiinshed all outstanding issues in XML Events 2.
09:26:51 <yamx> Shane: I have a question about event attribute.
09:27:24 <yamx> Shane: event attribute collection.
09:27:38 <yamx> Roland: I imagine it is adequate.
09:27:51 <yamx> Shane: working with new draft.
09:27:55 <yamx> Roland: sounds good.
09:28:06 <yamx> Roland: any more items on XML Events 2?
09:28:17 <yamx> (none from participants)
09:29:00 <yamx> Topic: frames (continued from yesterda)
09:29:28 <yamx> Roland: suggests iframe back in XHTML2.
09:29:45 <yamx> Roland: two types of containers should be clarified.
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09:30:23 <Steven-eee> Gregory, I believe we accepted that proposal
09:30:31 <Steven-eee> to add 'implements'
09:30:39 <ShaneM> I believe we did as well (@implements)
09:30:44 <oedipus> thank you steven - i just wanted to make sure before we moved on
09:30:58 <ShaneM> my plan is to add a comment about HASFEATURE and let someone smarter figure it out.
09:31:12 <oedipus> that excludes me...
09:31:26 <ShaneM> clearly ;-)
09:31:38 <oedipus> ;-)
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09:33:56 <yamx> (Allesio presents something on the projector.)
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09:35:18 <alessio> yes steven, I will
09:38:12 <Roland__> network has slowed down now that we are sahing with WAI PF meeting next door :-)
09:38:13 <alessio> so, we are analyzing the question of fallback for iframes
09:38:48 <alessio> because one "classical" issue is the iframe poor accessibility
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09:41:09 <oedipus> many assistive technologies offer a "do not display iframe" option; for low vision users and alternate input users, it's the insane amount of scrolling
09:41:51 <oedipus> GJR: that's how bad the problem is -- AT vendors would rather have people suppress IFRAME than design an alternate strategy
09:43:12 <yamx> Yam: Combining multiple documents is some essential one, some umbrella spec, e.g. XML Events 2. Not ifrems back in.
09:43:31 <oedipus> +1 to yam
09:43:56 <yamx> s/ifrems/iframes/
09:44:21 <yamx> s/some umbrella/possibly some umbrella/
09:44:22 <alessio> right gregory, in fact we're only starting to explore a possibility to make an accessible object
09:44:45 <alessio> unfortunately actually object is very buggy
09:45:16 <Steven-eee> but we shouldn't let our *design* be constrained by existing buggy implementations
09:45:18 <alessio> for example we cannot load dynamic data, even reloading the page
09:45:24 <oedipus> yes, i just had that conversation in the HTML WG for the ten thousdandth time this week -- OBJECT with role over VIDEO, AUDIO, other stuff
09:45:40 <Steven-eee> if necessary we make an 'cid test' for objec to embarrass the implementors
09:45:44 <alessio> I agree steven
09:45:49 <oedipus> me too
09:45:56 <Steven-eee> s/cid/acid/
09:46:06 <alessio> in fact that I'm starting to do yesterday :)
09:46:29 <alessio> s/ing/ed
09:46:33 <alessio> s/ing/ed/
09:46:52 <oedipus> moving forward, into the future, ARIA politeness levels and other features will help with dynamic content accessibility
09:48:26 <alessio> the goal is having a url like this: http://mypage.htm#src(f1=firstAddress,f2=secondAddress)
09:48:29 <Roland__> we are just starting to look at what we would need from a new "container". Some of the the desirable characteristics of IFRAME should be explored. We are not suggesting that we reintroduce IFRAME as is was previously defined.
09:48:32 <Steven> -> http://www.w3.org/People/mimasa/test/object/ object test
09:48:45 <alessio> yes
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09:49:45 <Steven> -> http://www.w3.org/People/mimasa/test/object/results Object test results (not up to date)
09:49:54 <Roland__> one characteristic we need is a separate security context
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09:51:52 <ShaneM> I think that data in an "iframe" should be in its own DOM really.  its a separate, inset document.  There should be no ability to communicate across the boundary.
09:53:07 <yamx> Allesio: We have to introduce a method to load a content in a dynamic content.
09:53:16 <yamx> s/dynamic content/dynamic manner/
09:53:56 <ShaneM> you mean other than webapi/ajax?
09:54:09 <yamx> sounds like.
09:54:27 <alessio> yes shane
09:54:35 <ShaneM> and other than the src attribute we already have that a script/handler could just change?
09:54:43 <Roland__> Rather than "no ability" I believe the author of the containing document should determine what, if any, ability it wishes to grant the "iframe".
09:54:49 <alessio> test url (kindly hosted by simone): http://w3c.onofri.org/test.htm#src(f1=http://www.google.it,f2=http://www.w3.org)
09:55:33 <alessio> yesterday I've tried to load dynamic content both in an object and iframe
09:57:31 <alessio> object seems not to refresh its "data" attribute
09:58:15 <alessio> iframe does refresh its "src"
09:58:36 <yamx> Roland: Simone, what do people think iframes are bad.. ?
09:59:03 <yamx> Roland: so not a problem on iframes, but issues with people's use of javascript.
09:59:46 <Steven> iframes test doesn't work for me Opera, FF, IE
10:01:56 <Roland__> 06rrsagent, make minutes01
10:02:57 <Roland__> rrsagent, make log public
10:03:54 <alessio> maybe there are some problems with security policies, steven
10:04:18 <Steven-eee> yes
10:05:54 <alessio> Roland: anyway this is a problem we have to handle
10:06:16 <Simone> as per default, browsers does not load something if there are not on the same domain of master page, this is an important issue on AJAXy applications ans as I see this is resolved using a proxy (server side)
10:06:31 <alessio> true
10:06:38 <Simone> s/ans/and
10:07:09 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
10:07:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
10:13:02 <ShaneM> I think the network did drop
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10:21:29 <Steven-eee> sound quality is not good enough to hear
10:24:39 <yamx> (we have problems to show the loaded frames example.)
10:24:51 <yamx> (Our network is very bad...)
10:25:07 <yamx> (We are talking about the framework of container and needs for standardization in general.)
10:25:09 <Steven-eee> (we noticed :-) )
10:25:12 <Roland__> some discussion about what aspects of "container" support we should tackle as part of XHTML
10:25:49 <alessio> maybe this woks: http://w3c.onofri.org/test.xml#src(f1=http://www.google.it,f2=http://www.w3.org)
10:25:52 <Roland__> perhaps the container topic should be in a separate spec like we have done for XML events
10:26:25 <alessio> s/wok/works/
10:26:31 <yamx> But it is OK to talk it in XHTML2 framework, we can make it a separate spec if we find it appropriate in the future.
10:27:24 <Simone> for example, problem maybe the MIME type shipped by the server
10:27:37 <ShaneM> good point.
10:28:06 <Simone> now is XML and works 
10:28:10 <yamx> From my viewpoint, to describe logical relationships of multiple docs and to describe some screen layout info for multiple (possiblly ) indpendent applications are two different things.
10:29:57 <yamx> Roland: we will have a few minutes break, and have a joint meeting with WAI.
10:30:09 <yamx> Yam: do we have a meeting at WAI?
10:30:09 <Steven-eee> which channel?
10:30:20 <yamx> Roland: a good question. possibly at their place.
10:30:23 <oedipus> the PF group is in #pf
10:30:28 <Roland__> probably theirs as there are more of them
10:30:35 <yamx> Yam: I agree.
10:30:36 <Steven-eee> how long break?
10:30:46 <Steven-eee> Long enouhg for me to shuffel to the cafe?
10:30:58 <Steven-eee> s/shuffel/shuffle
10:31:10 <Roland__> till they return, so hopefully not long. estimate 5-10mins
10:47:46 <Roland__> WAI group joining us
10:47:52 <Roland__> slowly assembling
10:53:10 <Roland__> we will use #pf channel for this first part of joint session
10:53:18 <oedipus> ok
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13:05:36 <yamx> (after lunch break, we resume at #xhtml)
13:05:41 <yamx> Scribe: Yam
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13:07:58 <yamx> Presence: Diego. AL, Roland, Rich, Allesso, Simone, Dimitar, Janina, Michael,
13:08:04 <yamx> s/AL/Al/
13:08:09 <yamx> s/./,/
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13:08:26 <Steven> s/Presence/Present/
13:08:30 <yamx> s/Michael/Michael, Yam/
13:08:41 <Steven> Present+Steven
13:08:55 <yamx> s/Yam/Yam, Steven/
13:08:55 <Simone> s/Allesso/Alessio
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13:09:32 <yamx> Topic: ARIA
13:09:37 <oedipus> present+Gregory
13:09:54 <yamx> Al: I will present the overview.
13:09:58 <yamx> .. for kick-it-off.
13:10:06 <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes
13:10:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
13:10:17 <yamx> Al: ARIA suite is on 1st working draft.
13:10:37 <yamx> Al: this is already very close to last call, with a bunch of markups..
13:11:00 <yamx> Al: engineering decision on browser behavior is close to "complete".
13:11:29 <yamx> Al: New, first time to combine role and states in one document.
13:11:51 <yamx> Al: the other new thing is an approach embedding ARIA markup in a host language.
13:12:28 <yamx> Al: we have two approaches, friendly to HTML5, the other  is friendly to XHMTL1/XHTML2.
13:12:50 <yamx> Al: included role attribute is used in HTML5-friendly way.
13:13:11 <yamx> Al: new writeup should be reviewed by XHTML2, is it a deal you sign up to?
13:13:27 <yamx> s/XHTML2/XHTML2-WG/
13:14:15 <yamx> Al: to look for Firefox and Opera people to check its validity for them.
13:14:29 <yamx> Al: missing something, raising a question about predefined role names..
13:14:44 <yamx> Long-winded
13:15:08 <yamx> Al: long-winded, (someone talking for a long time....)
13:15:24 <yamx> Al: predefined role names, how you model web pages?
13:15:29 <Rich> Rich has joined #xhtml
13:15:32 <yamx> s/how you/how do you/
13:15:43 <MichaelC_VCE> -> ARIA Implementation in Host Languages http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-wai-aria-20080204/#implementation
13:15:53 <yamx> Al: any outstanding issues between ARIA and XHTML2.
13:16:31 <yamx> Michael: name-space friendly version; in HTML5, it is similar to role attributes: two wordings..
13:16:43 <yamx> s/name-/one is name-/
13:16:55 <yamx> s/in HTML5/the other for HTML5/
13:18:05 <yamx> Al: CURIE.
13:18:17 <yamx> Al: we should talk about access element, also.
13:18:35 <yamx> Al: RDFa will come out last call shortly.
13:18:49 <yamx> Al: we have to raise it, anything to be constructive...
13:19:06 <yamx> Al: we are sure access module and role module to be covered.
13:19:09 <yamx> Topic: CUIRE
13:19:14 <yamx> Roland: hopefully short...
13:19:25 <yamx> s/CUIRE/CURIE/
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13:21:59 <yamx> Yam: any possible issues from ARIA?
13:22:23 <yamx> Al: colon and attribute, a browser bug, a lexical issue, be an interest to ARIA.
13:22:32 <yamx> Al: any issues with CURIE syntax.
13:23:27 <yamx> Al: no issue.
13:23:29 <Rich> s/CUIRE/CURIE/
13:24:09 <yamx> Topic: RDFa syntax
13:24:26 <yamx> Al: want to make sure nothing to be talked on RDFa syntax. is that true?
13:25:08 <yamx> Micheal: question. prefix part reference, similar to scheme name. any potential collision? room for clarification?
13:25:41 <yamx> Shane: checking
13:25:54 <yamx> Micheal: technical issue or educational issue?
13:26:15 <oedipus> we should address the PF's response to XHTML2 WG that RDFa didn't suffice for requested predefined role "title" in Role comments
13:27:18 <yamx> Shane: describing clarification about "for-human" and "for-machine". like qname..
13:27:32 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane add a note htat there is a risk that humans might perceive a CURIE as a URI.
13:27:38 <ShaneM> s/htat/that/
13:28:14 <yamx> Al: text of URI, point of crack user, cognitive factor, anything confusing people...
13:29:20 <ShaneM> Note that CURIEs have EXACTLY the same problem as QNames with respect to humans potentially misinterpreting them.
13:29:44 <yamx> Al: RDFa is a way to inject a project as such, accessibility issue is uptake, not design of technology. We have desire for metadata, aligned to practical use.
13:30:03 <yamx> Roland: OK. done.
13:30:11 <yamx> Topic: Access module
13:30:34 <yamx> Al: Access module replaces capability of accesskey in HTML4.
13:31:13 <yamx> Al: one point, came up to argument, action has to be adaptable (personalizable). 
13:31:52 <yamx> Al: summary of that argument was display processing, going to element, assistive technology, before authorized action.
13:32:21 <yamx> Al: in the middle of form, ... in that example..
13:32:53 <yamx> Al: other users, with requirements "just do it", not focusing detailed sequence.
13:33:29 <yamx> Roland: binary selection.
13:33:46 <yamx> s/selection/selection by a boolean/
13:34:05 <yamx> Al: Practically, boolean may be OK.
13:34:41 <ShaneM> We currently have language about the key attribute that discusses how agents must be able to override:  The character assigned to a key, and its relationship to a role or id attribute, are a suggestion of the author. User agents may provide mechanisms for overriding, disabling, or re-assigning keys. In such user agents, user-specified assignments must take precendence. If no key attribute is specified, the user agent SHOULD assign a key.
13:34:58 <yamx> Al: like IETF, security considerations. We need accessibility considerations. Micheal, you are geneus.
13:34:58 <ShaneM> Similar language should be in the document for the activate attribute.
13:35:27 <yamx> Al: Activate or not may be appropriate.
13:36:21 <yamx> Shane: user can overwrite. Good.
13:36:30 <oedipus> 2 birds with one stone dept. -- that satisfies the UAAG requirement
13:36:34 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to add language to seciton 3.1.1 of xhtml-access to require user agent override of the activate attribute setting
13:36:51 <yamx> s/geneus/genius/
13:37:02 <yamx> Roland: sounds good. some consensus here.
13:37:17 <yamx> Al: this is all, any other issue for moving on.
13:37:20 <oedipus> i think UAAG will be happy with this, too
13:37:50 <yamx> Topic: Role attribute
13:38:25 <yamx> Roland: second last call, when available, Shane?
13:38:42 <oedipus> FYI: http://www.w3.org/2008/02/19-xhtml-minutes.html#item03
13:38:56 <yamx> Roland: Jan 28 is the most recent for Role attribute.
13:38:59 <Roland_> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080128/
13:39:01 <oedipus> contains discussion of Role from yesterday
13:39:32 <yamx> Al: did not understand the conventions...
13:39:49 <yamx> Al: in red? deleted items?
13:40:05 <yamx> Al: other issues definitions of the predefined roles.
13:40:31 <yamx> Roland: available as chameleon, both are available.
13:40:50 <yamx> Al: chameleon, not a practice in namespace..
13:40:53 <yamx> Al: you can.
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13:41:11 <oedipus> you SHOULD, i believe is the term
13:41:13 <yamx> Roland: could be embedded into their namespaces.
13:41:33 <yamx> Roland: there are three possibilities.
13:41:59 <yamx> Al: understand from the perspectives.
13:42:15 <yamx> Al: SVG has problems..
13:42:33 <yamx> Al: newsML has choices, three choices.
13:43:08 <yamx> Al: attributes does not obtain the namespace of element.
13:43:23 <oedipus> NewsML: http://www.newsml.org/
13:43:25 <MichaelC_VCE> q+ to ask about namespace of attribute value
13:43:39 <yamx> Roland: first discussion, how you do in your namespaces.
13:44:11 <yamx> Al: we don't have anything to talk about, at the moment.
13:44:22 <yamx> Roland: values of role attributes, the second discussion.
13:44:47 <yamx> Al: talk about the semantics of predefined values.
13:45:21 <yamx> Al: Micheal how those values are understood. Al, for application semantics.
13:45:36 <yamx> Roland: semantics, first to cover Al's.
13:46:23 <oedipus> semantics at the "grossest" level
13:46:26 <oedipus> yes that was shane
13:46:34 <yamx> Roland: Section 3. predefined values, starting from banner.
13:47:24 <yamx> Al: processing api binding layer, to me, semantics of the role attributes. need to be understood there.
13:48:03 <yamx> Shane: it is great, but not in role attr spec, but in accessibility spec.
13:48:19 <yamx> Roland: semantic container.
13:48:35 <yamx> Al: functionally, working.
13:49:26 <yamx> Al: synchronized about those approaches.
13:49:57 <yamx> Roland: must be machine processible, one of them should be RDFa. yesterda discussion.
13:50:01 <ShaneM> New version of xhtml-access with requirement for @activate override is up at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-access-20080220/
13:50:27 <yamx> Al: banner. entire front matter of web pages needed.
13:50:46 <Simone>  s/yesterda/yesterday
13:50:50 <ShaneM> Note that it is formatted as a FPWG not an ED.  I will fix that.
13:51:48 <yamx> Al: basically same idea, but how clearly explain to humans..
13:52:13 <yamx> Micheal: need rewording.
13:52:38 <yamx> Micheal: English problem (British English, American ), some sort of clarifications.
13:53:09 <yamx> Al: designers with span, div, ... we have to talk to those people.
13:53:35 <yamx> Al: historically, came from Rich.
13:53:44 <GerrieS> GerrieS has joined #xhtml
13:54:14 <GerrieS> Good morning
13:54:14 <yamx> Shane: you can edit anything there. XHTML-WG has no stick to these wordings.
13:54:16 <ShaneM> rewrite the role definitions, please!!!
13:54:56 <yamx> Micheal: we can work tomorrow.
13:55:16 <GerrieS> Skype?
13:55:37 <GerrieS> gshults
13:55:40 <yamx> Al: not much on contentinfo. needs a use case.
13:56:21 <yamx> Al: role for collecting meta data.
13:56:33 <ShaneM> Note that the xhtml 2 working group hoped to take role to last call very soon, so if you all could give us updated text this week it would be AWESOME!
13:56:45 <yamx> Al: no strong problem the way handled in contentinfo.
13:57:37 <yamx> Roland: definition.
13:58:41 <yamx> Micheal: confused.
13:59:03 <yamx> Al: context of symbol (dfn in this case).
13:59:16 <ShaneM> Use case of definition might be having a user agent create a glossary via role that I can pick from when reading a document.
13:59:52 <yamx> Al: we don't need role to reproduce dfn..
13:59:53 <oedipus> al, are you talking about <dfn id="wai-ex"><acronym title="Web Accessibility Initiative">WAI</acronym></dfn>
14:00:02 <oedipus> as a reuse method?
14:00:43 <yamx> Al: Michel's point is how we can make future-proof. interesting point.
14:01:02 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/#defining
14:01:10 <yamx> Al: host-language specific definition.
14:01:16 <oedipus> (it's on the HTML5 issues list for friday)
14:01:29 <yamx> Roland: regend example.
14:01:38 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/#the-dfn
14:02:55 <yamx> Michel: OK about Al's argument.
14:04:03 <yamx> Roland: next one is main.
14:04:53 <yamx> Al: main content may be multiple pages.
14:05:16 <yamx> s/pages/domains/
14:05:36 <yamx> Al: four or five top stories.
14:06:42 <yamx> Al: Action: Al to address grouping main content in one region as much as possible, in best practices.
14:06:51 <yamx> s/Al: Action/Action/
14:07:24 <yamx> Roland: moving on navigation.
14:07:53 <yamx> Al: hot keys, ..
14:09:27 <yamx> Al: focus and fire.
14:10:18 <yamx> Al: browsers provide hotkey to go to navigation, all blocks in somewhere,not any case, unique.
14:10:27 <yamx> Al: any issues with navigation? No.
14:10:36 <yamx> Roland: next, note.
14:11:34 <yamx> Al: they are sections.
14:11:46 <yamx> Al: main thing about note, bidirectional navigation by user agent.
14:12:16 <yamx> Micheal: how you can attach note?
14:12:35 <yamx> Micheal: how about inline note?
14:12:43 <yamx> Al: Hmmm.
14:14:52 <yamx> Shane: i want user agent to  suppress the inline note.
14:15:53 <yamx> Al: describing three predefined note configuration to cope with diverse user needs.
14:15:59 <oedipus> GJR: endnote different from footnote -- i would assign them different audio cues
14:16:11 <oedipus> GJR: explanatory versus reference notes
14:17:45 <yamx> Roland: decribing Appendix C to Al.
14:17:53 <yamx> .. Taxonomy part.
14:18:19 <yamx> Al: we are OK with note.
14:18:34 <yamx> Roland: next is search.
14:19:04 <yamx> Roland: you can wordsmith..
14:19:17 <yamx> Al: we can wordsmith, but general idea is agreed.
14:19:22 <yamx> Roland: next is secondary.
14:19:47 <yamx> Al: PF should wordsmith.
14:20:17 <yamx> Al: separate work. It matters how you word.
14:20:41 <yamx> Al: norole.
14:20:51 <yamx> Al: no role attribute.
14:21:26 <yamx> Al: PF assignment for seealso.
14:22:05 <yamx> Al: PF will make a status report at the end of this week, about wordsmithing these.
14:23:09 <yamx> Al: PF recognized the Shane's shout about "we are close to last call, give us the updated text this week, then it is AWESOME".
14:24:10 <yamx> Michel: don't understand CURIE , doe not provide prefix. 
14:24:19 <ShaneM> Role spec says:  If the prefix is omitted from a CURIE, the default value of http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab# MUST be used.
14:25:57 <yamx> Michel: OK. let me check...
14:26:04 <yamx> s/chel/cheal/
14:26:39 <yamx> Micheal: it is not same in HTML. I just want to make sure.
14:26:53 <yamx> s/HTML/HTML5/
14:27:18 <yamx> Micheal: do we have future harmonization? or differences.
14:28:38 <yamx> Michael: three choices, do nothing, to this name space, the third, basically aria role.
14:29:09 <yamx> Al: browsers do no namespace versions.
14:29:35 <yamx> Al: we decided to put up with them.
14:30:32 <yamx> Micheal: HTML, ARIA, we cannot use both? they will have the questions..
14:30:56 <ShaneM> I am certain you will get last call objections to this, fwiw.  
14:31:05 <yamx> Micheal: it could kill our last call...
14:31:44 <ShaneM> I would not object to having the aria role values included in the vocab# vocabulary space
14:33:36 <yamx> Micheal: this is the name space with XHTML, not html/1999.
14:33:59 <yamx> Micheal: it is completely separate. so we can deal with it. Not the issue with HTML5.
14:34:12 <yamx> Shane: it is vacab space.
14:34:19 <yamx> s/space/name space/
14:34:51 <yamx> Roland: they defined in role attribute spec are usable without any prefix.
14:37:27 <yamx> Roland: our list of predefined can be longer, in response to Michel.
14:37:39 <yamx> s/chel/cheal/
14:37:53 <yamx> Shane: we can dereference by URL.
14:38:12 <yamx> Shane: we start populating there.
14:39:19 <yamx> Al: agreement in princeple, same way, because developing external doc is. Shane and Micheal are contact points. 
14:40:10 <yamx> Micheal: OK, I am happy.
14:40:27 <MichaelC_VCE> ack me
14:40:33 <yamx> Al: joint meeting is over.
14:40:37 <yamx> Roland: I would like to check.
14:41:03 <yamx> Yam: I think all are covered.
14:41:07 <yamx> Alessio: OK.
14:41:10 <yamx> Simone: OK.
14:41:46 <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes
14:41:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
14:41:50 <yamx> (joint meeting adjourned.)
14:42:22 <Roland_> break now, reconvene in 20mins in separate groups
14:44:04 <oedipus> simone, do you want to resume in 20 minutes?
14:48:02 <ShaneM> I suggest Tesla - wake me up
14:48:41 <oedipus> either that or anything by the ramones....
15:01:14 <oedipus> FYI: http://www.daisy.org/z3986/2005/Z3986-2005.html#Skip "skippable" structures
15:02:41 <Al> Al has joined #xhtml
15:03:29 <oedipus> DAISY defines 2 types of notes - "noterefS" and "annorefS" http://www.daisy.org/z3986/2005/Z3986-2005.html#Notes 
15:06:27 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #xhtml
15:07:59 <oedipus> zcorpan, http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-irc for the joint session
15:08:19 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html
15:13:46 <Al> Al has joined #xhtml
15:15:16 <Al> Al has left #xhtml
15:16:49 <aaronlev> aaronlev has joined #xhtml
15:17:57 <oedipus> sounds as if simone's machine is in the PF room
15:18:51 <myakura> protocols and formats?
15:19:17 <oedipus> tasked with reviewing all specs that are accepted by w3c for accessibility issues/concerns
15:19:36 <oedipus> also developing ARIA (http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/)
15:20:04 <Steven> Steven has joined #xhtml
15:20:06 <GerrieS> The joint meeting was held on their turf, then?
15:20:25 <oedipus> i'm not quite sure -- i heard a bunch of PF voices, but they may be moving
15:20:54 <oedipus> steven, i'm still carrying gerrie and shane on skype -- do you want me to try you again?
15:21:00 <Steven> yes please
15:22:09 <Steven> sounds like you are in a zoo
15:22:16 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:22:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
15:22:27 <oedipus> it's the sound of 2 WGs breaking up
15:22:42 <Steven> is it all over then?
15:22:49 <GerrieS> Isn't that hard to do? :-)
15:22:56 <Steven> lol
15:23:11 <oedipus> i'm not sure where simone is...
15:23:32 <oedipus> we were going to reconvene separately after the afternoon break
15:26:20 <yamx> yamx has joined #xhtml
15:26:27 <Roland_> restarting . . . 
15:26:31 <yamx> (we are back from photo-taking)
15:27:34 <Diego> Diego has joined #xhtml
15:27:45 <yamx> Present: Roland, Alessio, Simone, Yam, Steven.
15:27:47 <Steven> lost sound
15:28:08 <oedipus> that's because simone dropped -- i'll call her
15:28:08 <yamx> s/Steven/Steven, Shane/
15:28:12 <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes
15:28:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
15:28:19 <yamx> s/Shane/Shane, Gregory./
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15:29:21 <Steven> gregory, I hear your screen reader
15:29:26 <Steven> I assume it's yours
15:29:35 <oedipus> i just muted -- sorry
15:29:56 <oedipus> simone, you need to add gerrie now that you're host
15:30:15 <Simone> ok
15:31:10 <oedipus> thanks we're all back on, i think
15:31:57 <Roland_> Present: Roland, Alessio, Simone, Yam, Steven, Shane, Gregory
15:32:16 <Roland_> Present: Roland, Alessio, Simone, Yam, Steven, Shane, Gregory, Gerrie
15:32:21 <yamx0> yamx0 has joined #xhtml
15:32:38 <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes
15:32:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
15:32:59 <yamx0> Topic: roadmap
15:34:06 <oedipus> no, we can hear you, simone
15:34:06 <Roland_> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml-roadmap/
15:35:12 <Steven> Yes
15:35:14 <Steven> the TAG
15:35:15 <yamx0> Shane: someone raised XHTML media type?
15:35:27 <Steven> hmm
15:35:32 <Steven> let me try and remember
15:35:38 <oedipus> it might have been on their blog
15:35:41 <oedipus> or wiki
15:35:42 <Steven> Just a moment, looking
15:36:38 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/selfDescribingDocuments#UsingRDFa
15:36:50 <Steven> Note: at this time, drafts of the [RDFa] specification are available, but the media-type registration for HTML itself has not been updated to reflect RDFa. As described in TAG Finding [AuthoritativeMetadata], conventions like RDFa are normative only if provided for in the applicable specification for the media-type in which they are used. Thus, for RDFa to be fully integrated with 2 The Web's Standard Retrieval Algorithm, the HTML and/or XHTML media-type regist
15:37:09 <Steven> I don't agree either
15:37:18 <Steven> Yes, I agree Shane
15:37:24 <Steven> I disagree with this comment fromthe TAG
15:37:49 <Steven> This doc (selfdescribingdocs) is currently open for comments
15:38:05 <Steven> so we should send in an official comment from the group
15:38:15 <Steven> I;m willing to word it
15:38:23 <Steven> I'll send a draft to the group
15:38:27 <yamx0> ACTION: Steven to reply to TAG that we disagree.
15:38:46 <yamx0> Roland: Shane, any other RDFa issues?
15:38:54 <yamx0> Shane: no.
15:39:38 <yamx> yamx has joined #xhtml
15:39:43 <yamx> Roland: let's check roadmap and call the f2f week over.
15:40:04 <yamx> Roland: minor comments from WAI today.
15:40:19 <yamx> Roland: do they prevent us from going to last call?
15:40:41 <Steven> +1
15:40:45 <yamx> Shane: completing access module. Can go to last call any time you want.
15:40:53 <oedipus> +1 with edits from today
15:41:10 <ShaneM> Edits from today are http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-access-20080220/
15:41:13 <Roland_> can we resolve to go to Last Call for ACCESS Module?
15:41:17 <ShaneM> so I think we are ready to go.  +1 from me.
15:41:28 <yamx> Roland: with no objections, we go forward to access module last call.
15:41:33 <alessio> +1
15:41:40 <yamx> RESOLUTION: we agreed to go access module last call.
15:43:15 <yamx> Roland: next one is xFrame.
15:43:52 <yamx> Alessio: starting some tests, embedding XHTML2 pages..
15:43:52 <yamx> Roland: we cannot go last call Feb 2008 for xFrames, apprarently.. quite a lot things to cover.
15:43:52 <yamx> Roland: how about April 2008?
15:44:23 <yamx> Roland: how about June, we can do something early if we are comfortable.
15:44:40 <yamx> Yam: it is too optimistic that we can make last call without f2f.
15:45:03 <ShaneM> did we get committment from WAI fols for new Role text this week?
15:45:19 <yamx> Roland: we agreed to move the last call xFrames to June 2008. No need for resolution to change the date.
15:45:33 <yamx> Roland: what the date for last call XML Events 2, Shane?
15:46:05 <yamx> Shane: hopefully in weeks.
15:46:13 <yamx> Roland: XML Event 2 schedule as it is.
15:46:15 <oedipus> shane, i began to alert the masses (those most interested in Role in PFWG)
15:46:44 <yamx> Roland: XHTML2, just "2008". not yet to describe any more detailed date.
15:47:18 <yamx> Roland: XHTML Basic 1.1. We are waiting for transition request... Not much use about speculation of exact date.
15:47:38 <yamx> Roland: RDFa syntax, last call for Feb 2008?
15:47:56 <yamx> Shane: we have a last call for 4 weeks.
15:48:23 <yamx> Roland: last call date is tomorrow. 2 month behind from Dec 2007. 
15:48:35 <ShaneM> Note that RDFa does NOT have a schema implementation in it.  I think that is editorial but it would be really nice oif we could get M12N done....
15:48:51 <yamx> Roland: reasonable to delay all schedule for two months?
15:49:24 <yamx> Shane: fine with 2 months shift.
15:49:24 <yamx> Roland: how about Primer?
15:49:47 <yamx> Shane: simplify more with comments.
15:50:37 <ShaneM> LOL
15:51:12 <yamx> Roland: Primer is not normative, no last call. we ignore them.
15:51:18 <yamx> Roland: M12N.
15:51:27 <yamx> Roland: we are optimistic?
15:51:58 <Steven> sorry I was muted
15:52:09 <Steven> I think we can be moderately optimistic
15:52:24 <yamx> Roland: M12N is in transition request, we will just see what will happen to them.
15:52:57 <Steven> I got a comment from Steve Bratt noting some problems with the spec that have now been fixed
15:53:05 <yamx> Roland: role, when ready for 2nd last call, Shane? 
15:53:08 <Steven> I think we can have a transition call soon
15:53:22 <ShaneM> ACTION:  Shane to ensure all Role attribute module changes are complete by 28 February - including new text from WAI folks.
15:54:09 <yamx> Roland: month of March, should be OK.
15:54:33 <yamx> Roland: CURIE syntax.
15:54:49 <yamx> Roland: just entering last call.
15:55:16 <yamx> Roland: we have to see what we will receive during last call. Then, we can decide on the future of CURIE.
15:55:19 <yamx> Roland: no update on the dates.
15:55:51 <yamx> Roland: the request is processed, we have to fix, but now it is just to be processed.
15:55:59 <yamx> Roland: done on roadmap.
15:56:18 <yamx> Topic: f2f meeting plan.
15:56:37 <yamx> Roland: CANN with TPAC in october.
15:56:44 <Steven> Cannes
15:56:49 <yamx> s/CANN/Cannes/
15:57:08 <yamx> Yam: I cannot join TPAC with overlapped OMA. Regrets.
15:57:11 <Steven> Need a location still for June (is it?)
15:57:44 <yamx> Roland: next f2f , June 16-18, current plannning, in U.S.A.
15:57:51 <oedipus> steven, weren't you going to ask google if they could host us in NYC?
15:57:57 <yamx> Roland: we have to narrow down a little. options...
15:58:04 <ShaneM> I could also host in Minneapolis
15:58:14 <Steven> I vote for Shanesville
15:58:30 <yamx> Roland: New York, suggested, but cannot verify.
15:58:31 <oedipus> if you're going to go to minneapolis, june is the right time
15:58:36 <Steven> what were the dates again?
15:58:45 <yamx> JUne 16-18.
15:58:48 <Steven> There is an IBM in NY
15:58:52 <Steven> NY State
15:58:55 <yamx> s/JU/Ju
15:59:03 <yamx> s/JU/Ju/
15:59:13 <aaronlev> aaronlev has joined #xhtml
15:59:39 <Steven> I like Shane's thinking :-)
15:59:54 <yamx> (we talked about Mon-Wed, or Tue-Thu).
16:00:01 <yamx> Shane: no problem for hosting.
16:00:07 <Steven> Cool
16:00:28 <oedipus> steven, the IBM watson research center in hawthorne, new york?
16:00:35 <Steven> yes
16:00:35 <ShaneM> Minneapolis - probably downtown somewhere.  not out where I am.  Its dead out here.
16:00:42 <yamx> Roland: could you just warn where your location is, Shane?
16:00:44 <Steven> We have contacts there
16:01:03 <oedipus> http://www.watson.ibm.com/general_info_haw.shtml
16:01:22 <yamx> Shane: June 17-19, proposing.
16:01:38 <ShaneM> There are non stops to minneapolis from london, amsterdam, and tokyo
16:02:00 <Steven> well, perfect then
16:02:02 <yamx> Really?
16:02:06 <yamx> to Tokyo?
16:02:12 <yamx> Are you sure?
16:02:18 <yamx> every day in a week?
16:02:43 <yamx> Roland: IBM location for alternative?
16:02:53 <oedipus> http://www.watson.ibm.com/general_info_haw.shtml
16:03:13 <Steven> Yes, Northwest
16:04:11 <ShaneM> I will pick a venue and set up hotel block etc in the next weeks.
16:04:14 <oedipus> yam, northwest is http://www.nwa.com/
16:04:23 <yamx> Roland: everyone happy with Minneapolis for June 17-19(Tue-Thu)?
16:04:34 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to set up meeting location for June 17 - 19.
16:05:15 <oedipus> GJR thinks he might actually manage to drag his carcass to minneapolis in june
16:05:45 <Steven> woh!
16:05:56 <yamx> Roland: any other business?
16:06:01 <oedipus> hide the women, children and farm animals
16:06:13 <yamx> Topic: AOB(Any other business)
16:06:21 <Steven> Wiki content?
16:06:37 <oedipus> good point, steven - what are the guidelines/rules?
16:06:43 <Steven> Well, up to us
16:06:52 <ShaneM> there's a wiki?  is it linked to the MarkUp page?
16:06:57 <Steven> There are some basic pages we need to create
16:06:58 <yamx> Roland: Right!
16:06:59 <aaronlev> aaronlev has joined #xhtml
16:07:00 <Steven> like About:
16:07:07 <Steven> and the front page
16:07:19 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/Main_Page
16:07:33 <yamx> Roland: entire content of Wiki is f2f Venice.
16:07:41 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/XHTML2:About
16:07:58 <yamx> Roland: what other content? roadmap is in W3C.
16:08:18 <yamx> Roland: Steven, do you have the image of what should we have?
16:08:25 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/Current_events
16:08:30 <Steven> for news about state of docs
16:08:43 <Steven> maybe
16:09:17 <yamx> (Roland has some network problems)
16:09:28 <Steven> join the club
16:10:55 <yamx> Roland: we have to think about Wiki communications.
16:11:19 <yamx> ACTION: Roland to include this Wiki issue in the upcoming teleconf agenda.
16:11:51 <yamx> Roland: blog?
16:12:09 <yamx> Roland: it is part of communications.
16:12:47 <oedipus> blogs spark as much heat as light...
16:13:11 <yamx> Roland: any additional business?
16:13:30 <ShaneM> I could use some time back at my day job.
16:13:31 <yamx> Roland: any additional thoughts beyond communications (Wiki, blog)?
16:13:40 <oedipus> i'll follow up with the PF people on getting verbiage on Role for you by the weekend, shane
16:13:47 <ShaneM> dont tease me
16:13:57 <oedipus> half of expertise is tease...
16:14:19 <ShaneM> only two industries call their customers users.....
16:14:51 <ShaneM> and have you ever noticed how the word institution is only used for things like asylums AND marriage?  hmmm...
16:15:29 <yamx> Alessio: start to encourge XHTML2 implementaions.
16:15:40 <yamx> s/start/descriging starting/
16:15:44 <ShaneM> dont we need to know what XHTML 2 is first?
16:16:01 <yamx> Roland: no one have anything additional.
16:16:08 <oedipus> no thanks for revisiting event yesterday
16:16:09 <Steven> no
16:16:10 <yamx> s/no one/no one in this room/
16:16:20 <Steven> dinner?
16:16:34 <oedipus> keep your foot elevated, steven!
16:16:46 <ShaneM> Hell of a meeting folks!
16:16:58 <yamx> Roland: finished. (after end, we will talk about dinner.)
16:17:19 <GerrieS> I'll be late for dinner!
16:17:32 <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes
16:17:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
16:18:02 <yamx> (Done for this week.)
16:18:05 <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes
16:18:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
16:18:06 <Steven> Gracie left already
16:18:22 <Steven> what's the deal with dinner?
16:18:36 <alessio> bye all :)
16:18:42 <Steven> bye
16:18:49 <oedipus> thanks to all who scribed -- especially yam -- great job; thanks, alessio, and thanks for the audio, simone!
16:18:50 <Simone> Steven, I hope we back to hotel and then find a place near it :)
16:18:57 <Steven> fab!
16:19:02 <Steven> Grazie Simone
16:19:18 <Simone> :)
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