14:57:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/20-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/20-rdf-wg-irc ←
14:58:19 <gavinc> zakim, this is rdfwg
Gavin Carothers: zakim, this is rdfwg ←
14:58:19 <Zakim> ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
14:58:29 <yvesr> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Yves Raimond: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
14:58:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.707.861.aaaa, +20598aabb, ??P9
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +1.707.861.aaaa, +20598aabb, ??P9 ←
14:58:37 <gavinc> zakim, aaaa is me
Gavin Carothers: zakim, aaaa is me ←
14:58:37 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc; got it ←
14:58:45 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P9 is me
Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P9 is me ←
14:58:45 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it ←
14:59:16 <Zakim> +Tony
Zakim IRC Bot: +Tony ←
14:59:33 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, Tony is me
Scott Bauer: Zakim, Tony is me ←
14:59:33 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Scott_Bauer; got it ←
15:00:25 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
15:00:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, +20598aabb, yvesr, Scott_Bauer
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, +20598aabb, yvesr, Scott_Bauer ←
15:00:26 <MacTed> Zakim, code?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, code? ←
15:00:26 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MacTed ←
15:00:28 <Zakim> +??P15
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15 ←
15:00:34 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
15:00:35 <AndyS> zakim, ??P15 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P15 is me ←
15:00:35 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
15:00:40 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:00:40 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
15:00:42 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:00:42 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:01:00 <Guus> zakim, +20598aabb is me
Guus Schreiber: zakim, +20598aabb is me ←
15:01:00 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus; got it ←
15:01:03 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
15:01:23 <Zakim> + +1.540.898.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.540.898.aacc ←
15:01:54 <Zakim> + +539149aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: + +539149aadd ←
15:02:04 <davidwood> Zakim, aacc is me
David Wood: Zakim, aacc is me ←
15:02:05 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it ←
15:02:39 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
15:02:42 <cygri> zakim, aadd is me
Richard Cyganiak: zakim, aadd is me ←
15:02:42 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it ←
15:03:04 <Zakim> +??P22
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22 ←
15:03:13 <Zakim> + +1.617.553.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.617.553.aaee ←
15:03:17 <LeeF> zakim, aaee is me
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, aaee is me ←
15:03:17 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF; got it ←
15:03:28 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P22 is me
Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P22 is me ←
15:03:28 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it ←
15:03:41 <cygri> scribe: cygri
(Scribe set to Richard Cyganiak)
15:03:44 <Zakim> +??P26
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26 ←
15:03:53 <mischat> zakim, ??P26 is me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, ??P26 is me ←
15:03:55 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +mischat; got it ←
15:03:57 <Zakim> -SteveH
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH ←
15:03:59 <mischat> zakim, mute me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me ←
15:04:01 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat should now be muted ←
15:04:07 <Zakim> +??P27
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27 ←
15:04:12 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P27 is me
Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P27 is me ←
15:04:13 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it ←
15:04:17 <cygri> topic: Admin
15:04:35 <Zakim> +??P22
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22 ←
15:04:51 <mbrunati> zakim, ??P22 is me
Matteo Brunati: zakim, ??P22 is me ←
15:04:51 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +mbrunati; got it ←
15:05:06 <cygri> PROPOSAL: accept last week's minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-07-06
PROPOSED: accept last week's minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-07-06 ←
15:05:25 <cygri> RESOLUTION: accept last week's minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-07-06
RESOLVED: accept last week's minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-07-06 ←
15:05:27 <Zakim> +Bert
Zakim IRC Bot: +Bert ←
15:05:36 <cygri> topic: Action item review
15:05:49 <FabGandon> Zakim, Bert is me
Fabien Gandon: Zakim, Bert is me ←
15:05:49 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +FabGandon; got it ←
15:05:55 <Zakim> + +1.404.978.aaff
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.404.978.aaff ←
15:06:06 <cygri> guus: richard did ACTION-64, it's done, close it
Guus Schreiber: richard did ACTION-64, it's done, close it ←
15:06:13 <tomayac> zakim, aaff is me
Thomas Steiner: zakim, aaff is me ←
15:06:13 <Zakim> +tomayac; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac; got it ←
15:06:32 <cygri> sandro: didn't do ACTION-52 yet
Sandro Hawke: didn't do ACTION-52 yet ←
15:07:42 <cygri> cygri: ACTION-62 done on list (not on wiki)
Richard Cyganiak: ACTION-62 done on list (not on wiki) ←
15:08:06 <cygri> ACTION-65?
15:08:07 <trackbot> ACTION-65 -- Sandro Hawke to and Pat to consider what words to add to minimal proposal. -- due 2011-06-29 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-65 -- Sandro Hawke to and Pat to consider what words to add to minimal proposal. -- due 2011-06-29 -- OPEN ←
15:08:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/65
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/65 ←
15:08:17 <Zakim> +??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←
15:08:18 <cygri> sandro: not yet done
Sandro Hawke: not yet done ←
15:08:26 <NickH> zakim, ??P5 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, ??P5 is me ←
15:08:26 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
15:08:31 <NickH> zakim, mute me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, mute me ←
15:08:31 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted ←
15:08:32 <cygri> guus: ACTION-66 not yet done, paul on holiday
Guus Schreiber: ACTION-66 not yet done, paul on holiday ←
15:08:39 <yvesr> Zakim, mute me
Yves Raimond: Zakim, mute me ←
15:08:39 <Zakim> yvesr should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: yvesr should now be muted ←
15:09:08 <cygri> ... ACTION-67 and ACTION-68 remain open
... ACTION-67 and ACTION-68 remain open ←
15:09:34 <cygri> ... next telecon is August 3
... next telecon is August 3 ←
15:09:47 <cygri> davidwood: i can chair on that date
David Wood: i can chair on that date ←
15:09:55 <cygri> topic: Turtle Editors Draft
15:10:04 <cygri> guus: davidwood made transition request
Guus Schreiber: davidwood made transition request ←
15:10:11 <cygri> ... there are still admin things to be done
... there are still admin things to be done ←
15:10:30 <gavinc> Turtle is already a reasonably settled serialization of RDF. Many implementations of Turtle already exist, we are hoping for feedback from those existing implementors and other people deciding that now would be a good time to support Turtle. There are still a few rough edges that need polishing, and better alignment with the SPARQL triple patterns. The working group does not expect to make any large changes to the existing syntax.
Gavin Carothers: Turtle is already a reasonably settled serialization of RDF. Many implementations of Turtle already exist, we are hoping for feedback from those existing implementors and other people deciding that now would be a good time to support Turtle. There are still a few rough edges that need polishing, and better alignment with the SPARQL triple patterns. The working group does not expect to make any large changes to the existing syntax. ←
15:10:40 <cygri> gavinc: we now have status paragraph that the WG needs to agree to
Gavin Carothers: we now have status paragraph that the WG needs to agree to ←
15:11:04 <cygri> davidwood: we need to find words in this telecon that reflect the status as the WG sees it
David Wood: we need to find words in this telecon that reflect the status as the WG sees it ←
15:11:49 <cygri> guus: i'm happy with the text
Guus Schreiber: i'm happy with the text ←
15:11:49 <ericP> +1 to text
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to text ←
15:11:53 <AndyS> Looks good for WD
Andy Seaborne: Looks good for WD ←
15:12:12 <cygri> PROPOSAL: accept status text as proposed
PROPOSED: accept status text as proposed ←
15:12:24 <cygri> RESOLUTION: accept turtle status text as proposed
RESOLVED: accept turtle status text as proposed ←
15:13:06 <Zakim> +wcandillon
Zakim IRC Bot: +wcandillon ←
15:13:11 <cygri> sandro: technically speaking, the team contacts write this text. discussing it is fine though
Sandro Hawke: technically speaking, the team contacts write this text. discussing it is fine though ←
15:13:19 <AZ> Zakim, wcandillon is me
Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, wcandillon is me ←
15:13:19 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it ←
15:13:53 <cygri> guus: i'd like to take brief look on turtle issues http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products/3
Guus Schreiber: i'd like to take brief look on turtle issues http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products/3 ←
15:14:35 <cygri> gavinc: most of these issues are already resolved, just not closed
Gavin Carothers: most of these issues are already resolved, just not closed ←
15:14:50 <Zakim> +??P31
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P31 ←
15:15:27 <AndyS> ISSUE-1 => ISSUE-19 , ISSUE-20
Andy Seaborne: ISSUE-1 => ISSUE-19 , ISSUE-20 ←
15:15:54 <cygri> ericP: (discussion of ISSUE-67)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: (discussion of ISSUE-67) ←
15:16:16 <cygri> ericP: SPARQL is changing escaping rules
Eric Prud'hommeaux: SPARQL is changing escaping rules ←
15:16:34 <AndyS> Why \u in prefix part? What is it escaping?
Andy Seaborne: Why \u in prefix part? What is it escaping? ←
15:16:35 <cygri> ... used to escape everywhere; now escapes only certain places; discussion is which places exactly
... used to escape everywhere; now escapes only certain places; discussion is which places exactly ←
15:16:57 <cygri> guus: gavin, can you take action to update the issue list?
Guus Schreiber: gavin, can you take action to update the issue list? ←
15:17:04 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aagg
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aagg ←
15:17:06 <cygri> ACTION: gavinc to update Turtle issue list to reflect current status
ACTION: gavinc to update Turtle issue list to reflect current status ←
15:17:18 <Souri> zakim, aagg is me
Souripriya Das: zakim, aagg is me ←
15:17:18 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri; got it ←
15:17:32 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/d74c1b87d47f/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-diff-ntriples
Gavin Carothers: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/d74c1b87d47f/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-diff-ntriples ←
15:17:45 <cygri> gavinc: (discusses the section on relationship between turtle and n-triples)
Gavin Carothers: (discusses the section on relationship between turtle and n-triples) ←
15:18:29 <cygri> ericP: question to the community is whether they'd want a section that describes the subset of turtle that's n-triples
Eric Prud'hommeaux: question to the community is whether they'd want a section that describes the subset of turtle that's n-triples ←
15:19:05 <cygri> gavinc: defining n-triples as part of turtle would have implications on utf-8 support
Gavin Carothers: defining n-triples as part of turtle would have implications on utf-8 support ←
15:19:24 <AndyS> q+ to ask about MIME types
Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask about MIME types ←
15:19:49 <cygri> ericP: we could publish n-triples as part of turtle, or as a separate document
Eric Prud'hommeaux: we could publish n-triples as part of turtle, or as a separate document ←
15:20:04 <cygri> AndyS: if we make it a chapter, then how do we handle the media type registration?
Andy Seaborne: if we make it a chapter, then how do we handle the media type registration? ←
15:20:08 <Souri> +1 to ericP's proposal that we add a section that describes the subset of turtle that's n-triples or as a separate document
Souripriya Das: +1 to ericP's proposal that we add a section that describes the subset of turtle that's n-triples or as a separate document ←
15:20:17 <ericP> current media type for ntriples is text/plain
Eric Prud'hommeaux: current media type for ntriples is text/plain ←
15:20:19 <cygri> gavinc: that's a problem. we may be better off making a separate document
Gavin Carothers: that's a problem. we may be better off making a separate document ←
15:20:33 <cygri> ... otoh, it means more boilerplate and more document than we really need
... otoh, it means more boilerplate and more document than we really need ←
15:20:38 <NickH> +1 to getting a proper MIME type for n-triples
Nicholas Humfrey: +1 to getting a proper MIME type for n-triples ←
15:21:13 <cygri> guus: can you make a proposal?
Guus Schreiber: can you make a proposal? ←
15:21:31 <cygri> gavinc: it would have wide-ranging implications. it's defined in a different document that we may not plan to change?
Gavin Carothers: it would have wide-ranging implications. it's defined in a different document that we may not plan to change? ←
15:21:41 <cygri> AndyS: it's currently defined in the RDF Test Cases document
Andy Seaborne: it's currently defined in the RDF Test Cases document ←
15:21:55 <cygri> gavinc: it's a bit weird at the moment, parts are informative
Gavin Carothers: it's a bit weird at the moment, parts are informative ←
15:21:56 <AndyS> New MIME type - text/plain is "unhelpful" at best.
Andy Seaborne: New MIME type - text/plain is "unhelpful" at best. ←
15:22:04 <cygri> guus: i agree. that's something we want to fix
Guus Schreiber: i agree. that's something we want to fix ←
15:22:04 <pchampin> is the plan to make n-triples accept UTF-8?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: is the plan to make n-triples accept UTF-8? ←
15:22:36 <cygri> gavinc: can we have a poll? separate document vs. section in turtle?
Gavin Carothers: can we have a poll? separate document vs. section in turtle? ←
15:23:23 <cygri> ericP: if nt is ASCII only, then that's a bigger change, not quite just subset
Eric Prud'hommeaux: if nt is ASCII only, then that's a bigger change, not quite just subset ←
15:23:28 <cygri> sandro: POLL: (1) ntriples in turtle document, (2) ntriples in its own document
Sandro Hawke: POLL: (1) ntriples in turtle document, (2) ntriples in its own document ←
15:23:47 <sandro> 1
Sandro Hawke: 1 ←
15:23:53 <gavinc> 1
Gavin Carothers: 1 ←
15:23:53 <yvesr> 1
Yves Raimond: 1 ←
15:23:56 <cygri> cygri: 2
15:23:58 <mbrunati> 1
Matteo Brunati: 1 ←
15:24:02 <AndyS> Don't care : UTF-8 v important.
Andy Seaborne: Don't care : UTF-8 v important. ←
15:24:04 <davidwood> 1
David Wood: 1 ←
15:24:06 <AZ> 0 (not decided)
Antoine Zimmermann: 0 (not decided) ←
15:24:08 <Guus> 1
Guus Schreiber: 1 ←
15:24:14 <pchampin> 0 (not decided)
Pierre-Antoine Champin: 0 (not decided) ←
15:24:25 <Souri> don't care
Souripriya Das: don't care ←
15:24:25 <cygri> ericP: we can go FPWD with turtle now either way
Eric Prud'hommeaux: we can go FPWD with turtle now either way ←
15:24:29 <MacTed> 0
Ted Thibodeau: 0 ←
15:24:35 <tomayac> 0
Thomas Steiner: 0 ←
15:25:08 <cygri> guus: let's do poll on UTF-8 vs ascii to?
Guus Schreiber: let's do poll on UTF-8 vs ascii too? ←
15:25:12 <cygri> s/to/too/
15:25:50 <SteveH> I don't prefer ASCII, FWIW
Steve Harris: I don't prefer ASCII, FWIW ←
15:25:51 <cygri> (discussion of performance of utf-8 vs ascii)
(discussion of performance of utf-8 vs ascii) ←
15:25:56 <SteveH> I'd rather have UTF-8
Steve Harris: I'd rather have UTF-8 ←
15:26:07 <cygri> q+
q+ ←
15:26:13 <AndyS> ack me
Andy Seaborne: ack me ←
15:26:13 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about MIME types
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask about MIME types ←
15:26:18 <davidwood> utf-8++
David Wood: utf-8++ ←
15:26:21 <yvesr> +1 on utf-8
Yves Raimond: +1 on utf-8 ←
15:26:25 <NickH> +1 on utf-8
Nicholas Humfrey: +1 on utf-8 ←
15:26:36 <cygri> +1 on utf-8
+1 on utf-8 ←
15:26:38 <tomayac> utf-8
Thomas Steiner: utf-8 ←
15:26:38 <Guus> 0
Guus Schreiber: 0 ←
15:26:41 <LeeF> 0
Lee Feigenbaum: 0 ←
15:26:42 <pchampin> would utf-8 mean that \uXXXX are not allowed anymore ?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: would utf-8 mean that \uXXXX are not allowed anymore ? ←
15:26:43 <ericP> -.5 to utf-8
Eric Prud'hommeaux: -.5 to utf-8 ←
15:26:46 <mbrunati> +1 on utf-8
Matteo Brunati: +1 on utf-8 ←
15:26:47 <yvesr> (seems slighly weird it's not yet!)
Yves Raimond: (seems slighly weird it's not yet!) ←
15:26:47 <AndyS> +1 to UTF-8
Andy Seaborne: +1 to UTF-8 ←
15:26:48 <sandro> 0
Sandro Hawke: 0 ←
15:26:55 <SteveH> +1 to UTF-8
Steve Harris: +1 to UTF-8 ←
15:27:01 <cygri> gavinc: \uXXXX would still be legal
Gavin Carothers: \uXXXX would still be legal ←
15:27:01 <gavinc> +1 utf-8
Gavin Carothers: +1 utf-8 ←
15:27:18 <pchampin> so it means that there are several ways to serialize the same graph in n-triples?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: so it means that there are several ways to serialize the same graph in n-triples? ←
15:27:23 <cygri> ericP: for high throughput, ascii is faster
Eric Prud'hommeaux: for high throughput, ascii is faster ←
15:27:33 <pchampin> makes it grep/sed/sort-unfriendly
Pierre-Antoine Champin: makes it grep/sed/sort-unfriendly ←
15:27:35 <SteveH> I dispute "much" as well
Steve Harris: I dispute "much" as well ←
15:27:38 <cygri> AndyS: i don't think it's much faster
Andy Seaborne: i don't think it's much faster ←
15:28:04 <cygri> ericP: only reason for using nt is performance
Eric Prud'hommeaux: only reason for using nt is performance ←
15:28:13 <NickH> you can write a much faster parser, if you know to only expect n-triples
Nicholas Humfrey: you can write a much faster parser, if you know to only expect n-triples ←
15:28:46 <cygri> AndyS: i got 90k with turtle and 120k with nt, with same character conversion code
Andy Seaborne: i got 90k with turtle and 120k with nt, with same character conversion code ←
15:28:52 <yvesr> NickH, yes, it still need to have its own mimetype
Yves Raimond: NickH, yes, it still need to have its own mimetype ←
15:28:58 <SteveH> pchampin, modern grep etc. is UTF-8 compatible
Steve Harris: pchampin, modern grep etc. is UTF-8 compatible ←
15:29:07 <cygri> (discussion of lexing and escaping)
(discussion of lexing and escaping) ←
15:29:56 <pchampin> @steveh: yes, but grep does not know that "\uc3a9" is the same as "é", or does it??
Pierre-Antoine Champin: @steveh: yes, but grep does not know that "\uc3a9" is the same as "é", or does it?? ←
15:30:11 <SteveH> pchampin, that's not a UTF-8 thing though
Steve Harris: pchampin, that's not a UTF-8 thing though ←
15:30:16 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
15:30:19 <NickH> yvesr: yes, it needs its own MIME type
Yves Raimond: yes, it needs its own MIME type [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ] ←
15:30:22 <Guus> ack cygri
Guus Schreiber: ack cygri ←
15:30:35 <AndyS> Can delay Unicode conversion and work in bytes only in UTF-8
Andy Seaborne: Can delay Unicode conversion and work in bytes only in UTF-8 ←
15:30:53 <cygri> cygri: serializers would become simpler if utf-8 was allowed
Richard Cyganiak: serializers would become simpler if utf-8 was allowed ←
15:30:40 <yvesr> cygri, +1
Yves Raimond: cygri, +1 ←
15:30:47 <NickH> AndyS: yes!
Andy Seaborne: yes! [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ] ←
15:31:04 <cygri> gavinc: last time we had objection from oracle
Gavin Carothers: last time we had objection from oracle ←
15:31:14 <cygri> souri: we use n-triples a lot
Souripriya Das: we use n-triples a lot ←
15:31:50 <cygri> ... we'll have to modify our software if we get input that uses utf-8
... we'll have to modify our software if we get input that uses utf-8 ←
15:32:00 <SteveH> a new name would make some sense
Steve Harris: a new name would make some sense ←
15:32:06 <SteveH> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
15:32:09 <cygri> ... we'd prefer calling the new thing something else, n-triples prime or so
... we'd prefer calling the new thing something else, n-triples prime or so ←
15:32:13 <cygri> q-
q- ←
15:32:22 <pchampin> q+ to ask about multiple n-triples serialization for the same graph
Pierre-Antoine Champin: q+ to ask about multiple n-triples serialization for the same graph ←
15:32:47 <cygri> gavinc: is there an issue if the utf-8 version gets a new media type?
Gavin Carothers: is there an issue if the utf-8 version gets a new media type? ←
15:32:55 <AndyS> ericP - you are confusing bytes and codepoints.
Andy Seaborne: ericP - you are confusing bytes and codepoints. ←
15:33:05 <cygri> souri: we need to talk about it internally. might be able to tell you more next week
Souripriya Das: we need to talk about it internally. might be able to tell you more next week ←
15:33:17 <cygri> steveh: in our code, the change was not that difficult
Steve Harris: in our code, the change was not that difficult ←
15:33:31 <cygri> ... the problem is deployed software that claims to handle n-triples
... the problem is deployed software that claims to handle n-triples ←
15:33:59 <Guus> ack SteveH
Guus Schreiber: ack SteveH ←
15:34:02 <cygri> ... there will be confusion if deployed software has to deal with new data that uses utf-8
... there will be confusion if deployed software has to deal with new data that uses utf-8 ←
15:34:04 <cygri> souri: exactly
Souripriya Das: exactly ←
15:34:44 <pchampin> I seem to remember a use case of NT:
Pierre-Antoine Champin: I seem to remember a use case of NT: ←
15:34:44 <AndyS> ericP - that's one way of doing it. There are others. e.g. Do checking of points elsewhere - lots (and lots!) of impl choices
Andy Seaborne: ericP - that's one way of doing it. There are others. e.g. Do checking of points elsewhere - lots (and lots!) of impl choices ←
15:34:52 <yvesr> n-triples 1.1?
Yves Raimond: n-triples 1.1? ←
15:34:55 <pchampin> handling it with text-based tools, such as grep, sed...
Pierre-Antoine Champin: handling it with text-based tools, such as grep, sed... ←
15:35:25 <yvesr> pchampin, recent versions of those text-based tools deal with utf-8 correctly
Yves Raimond: pchampin, recent versions of those text-based tools deal with utf-8 correctly ←
15:35:45 <cygri> ericP: we should publish it with an issue that says: we'll make n-triples utf-8, but some people might prefer an ascii version
Eric Prud'hommeaux: we should publish it with an issue that says: we'll make n-triples utf-8, but some people might prefer an ascii version ←
15:36:13 <cygri> guus: is everyone ok with proceeding in that way?
Guus Schreiber: is everyone ok with proceeding in that way? ←
15:36:14 <yvesr> pchampin, from grep's man "also work on UTF-8 files and 16-bit wide Unicode files"
Yves Raimond: pchampin, from grep's man "also work on UTF-8 files and 16-bit wide Unicode files" ←
15:36:19 <cygri> souri: yes
Souripriya Das: yes ←
15:36:59 <cygri> gavinc: there's still some text in the document that claims that turtle is a subset of n3
Gavin Carothers: there's still some text in the document that claims that turtle is a subset of n3 ←
15:37:05 <cygri> ... that's not strictly true any more
... that's not strictly true any more ←
15:37:17 <cygri> ... i'd like wg feedback
... i'd like wg feedback ←
15:37:27 <gavinc> "It is intended to be compatible with, and a subset of, Notation 3."
Gavin Carothers: "It is intended to be compatible with, and a subset of, Notation 3." ←
15:37:45 <AndyS> q+ to ask about motivation of text
Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask about motivation of text ←
15:37:48 <cygri> ericP: i suspect tim will change n3 according to what we do with turtle
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i suspect tim will change n3 according to what we do with turtle ←
15:38:14 <cygri> guus: i'd like to have a statement in there that says what the issue is, without formal claim about subset
Guus Schreiber: i'd like to have a statement in there that says what the issue is, without formal claim about subset ←
15:38:15 <NickH> I agree that Turtle doesn't need to be a format subset of N3
Nicholas Humfrey: I agree that Turtle doesn't need to be a format subset of N3 ←
15:38:17 <NickH> formal
Nicholas Humfrey: formal ←
15:38:21 <NickH> +1 to AndyS
Nicholas Humfrey: +1 to AndyS ←
15:38:26 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
15:38:32 <cygri> AndyS: the spec currently says, it's a *goal* to be a subset of n3
Andy Seaborne: the spec currently says, it's a *goal* to be a subset of n3 ←
15:38:41 <cygri> ... we want to make turtle a free-standing language
... we want to make turtle a free-standing language ←
15:38:45 <AndyS> ack me
Andy Seaborne: ack me ←
15:38:45 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about motivation of text
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask about motivation of text ←
15:38:47 <gavinc> Perfectly happy to have N3 say "I'm an extension of Turtle" ;)
Gavin Carothers: Perfectly happy to have N3 say "I'm an extension of Turtle" ;) ←
15:38:50 <pchampin> q-
15:38:52 <sandro> Yeah. "Turtle is similar to, inspired by, and largely compatible with N3"
Sandro Hawke: Yeah. "Turtle is similar to, inspired by, and largely compatible with N3" ←
15:38:55 <cygri> ... n3 is not a standard
... n3 is not a standard ←
15:38:56 <Guus> make provenace clear, nof formal subset statement
Guus Schreiber: make provenace clear, nof formal subset statement ←
15:39:01 <cygri> q+
q+ ←
15:39:13 <cygri> ericP: there are some ppl who come to rdf via n3
Eric Prud'hommeaux: there are some ppl who come to rdf via n3 ←
15:39:18 <yvesr> +1 - it could make a reference to it though
Yves Raimond: +1 - it could make a reference to it though ←
15:39:21 <yvesr> inspired by?
Yves Raimond: inspired by? ←
15:39:25 <cygri> AndyS: i don't see any point in documenting the differences
Andy Seaborne: i don't see any point in documenting the differences ←
15:39:36 <cygri> ... n3 will change, so this will be updated
... n3 will change, so this will be updated ←
15:39:41 <LeeF> +100 to AndyS
Lee Feigenbaum: +100 to AndyS ←
15:39:45 <NickH> +1 to AndyS
Nicholas Humfrey: +1 to AndyS ←
15:39:50 <pchampin> +1 to andyS
Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1 to andyS ←
15:39:50 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
15:39:52 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
15:39:53 <Guus> ack cygri
Guus Schreiber: ack cygri ←
15:39:54 <Souri> +1 to AndyS
Souripriya Das: +1 to AndyS ←
15:39:54 <gavinc> +infinity
Gavin Carothers: +infinity ←
15:40:02 <sandro> yvesr, why do you ask "inspired by" ? That's a polite way to say 'a blatant ripoff", right? :-)
Sandro Hawke: yvesr, why do you ask "inspired by" ? That's a polite way to say 'a blatant ripoff", right? :-) ←
15:40:16 <yvesr> sandro, heh :) yes, sort of
Yves Raimond: sandro, heh :) yes, sort of ←
15:40:21 <ericP> cygri: "The genesis of Turtle is N3"
Richard Cyganiak: "The genesis of Turtle is N3" [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
15:40:32 <ericP> ... i don't see value in detailing the differences
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... i don't see value in detailing the differences ←
15:40:33 <mischat> i see no reason to talk about n3, +1 AndyS
Mischa Tuffield: i see no reason to talk about n3, +1 AndyS ←
15:40:39 <Guus> ack yvesr
Guus Schreiber: ack yvesr ←
15:40:45 <ericP> ... "N3 is a more powerful predecessor of Turtle."
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... "N3 is a more powerful predecessor of Turtle." ←
15:40:57 <gavinc> "While Notation 3 (N3) syntax played a large role in the creation of Turtle they are not strictly compatable."
Gavin Carothers: "While Notation 3 (N3) syntax played a large role in the creation of Turtle they are not strictly compatable." ←
15:40:58 <cygri> yvesr: we can leave it to the N3 spec to discuss this in detail
Yves Raimond: we can leave it to the N3 spec to discuss this in detail ←
15:41:03 <gavinc> that's in the text already
Gavin Carothers: that's in the text already ←
15:41:11 <cygri> ... just have historic note mentioning n3 in turtle
... just have historic note mentioning n3 in turtle ←
15:41:22 <cygri> gavinc: ok, so i'll do this change before FPWD
Gavin Carothers: ok, so i'll do this change before FPWD ←
15:41:25 <LeeF> gavinc, in that above sentence, s/compatable/compatible :-)
Lee Feigenbaum: gavinc, in that above sentence, s/compatable/compatible :-) ←
15:41:46 <AndyS> Imagine in +10years, what should the doc say? Do specs record history? Not a conf paper.
Andy Seaborne: Imagine in +10years, what should the doc say? Do specs record history? Not a conf paper. ←
15:41:49 <sandro> Guus, still totally breaking up....
Sandro Hawke: Guus, still totally breaking up.... ←
15:41:52 <gavinc> ah yes, being able to spell
Gavin Carothers: ah yes, being able to spell ←
15:42:02 <cygri> guus: ... ... editorial disgression ... ...
Guus Schreiber: ... ... editorial disgression ... ... ←
15:42:40 <cygri> topic: Graph terminology
15:42:58 <cygri> q+
q+ ←
15:43:14 <cygri> guus: trying to summarize the consensus:
Guus Schreiber: trying to summarize the consensus: ←
15:43:20 <cygri> ... g-snap = RDF graph
... g-snap = RDF graph ←
15:43:33 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
15:45:51 <cygri> cygri: we have a proposal on the table, just adopt SPARQL's design. i want to hear clearly articulated what the problem is about that proposal
Richard Cyganiak: we have a proposal on the table, just adopt SPARQL's design. i want to hear clearly articulated what the problem is about that proposal ←
15:45:58 <cygri> sandro: sparql misuses the term graph
Sandro Hawke: sparql misuses the term graph ←
15:46:18 <cygri> ... you can't do provenance if you don't know what's mutable and what's not
... you can't do provenance if you don't know what's mutable and what's not ←
15:46:24 <sandro> not the spec, but often the community, and it's ambiguous.
Sandro Hawke: not the spec, but often the community, and it's ambiguous. ←
15:46:30 <cygri> ... (not the sparql spec, but the community misuses the term)
... (not the sparql spec, but the community misuses the term) ←
15:47:07 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:47:16 <ericP> scribenick: pchampin
(Scribe set to Pierre-Antoine Champin)
15:47:26 <Guus> thx pa
Guus Schreiber: thx pa ←
15:47:41 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
(Scribe set to Eric Prud'hommeaux)
15:47:42 <pchampin> cygri: sandro, are you saying that the spec is not appropriate for doing provenanve? or are just ppl using it the wrong way?
Richard Cyganiak: sandro, are you saying that the spec is not appropriate for doing provenanve? or are just ppl using it the wrong way? [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
15:47:46 <ericP> scribenick: pchampin
(Scribe set to Pierre-Antoine Champin)
15:48:19 <pchampin> sandro: the RDF spec should be more useful for doing provenance
Sandro Hawke: the RDF spec should be more useful for doing provenance ←
15:48:42 <pchampin> cygri: which use case is not currently solved with the SPARQL proposal?
Richard Cyganiak: which use case is not currently solved with the SPARQL proposal? ←
15:49:15 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:49:24 <ericP> we could just provide terms to document the state of the universe at an instant
Eric Prud'hommeaux: we could just provide terms to document the state of the universe at an instant ←
15:49:42 <Guus> ack cygri
Guus Schreiber: ack cygri ←
15:49:45 <ericP> so we could just use graph for g-snap and let other invent g-box etc.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: so we could just use graph for g-snap and let other invent g-box etc. ←
15:49:50 <Guus> ack sandro
Guus Schreiber: ack sandro ←
15:50:18 <pchampin> sandro: (some distinction btw g-snap and g-box, unmutable vs. mutable graph)
Sandro Hawke: (some distinction btw g-snap and g-box, unmutable vs. mutable graph) ←
15:50:35 <AndyS> In SPARQL, graphs are immutable values. Graph store is slots holding values.
Andy Seaborne: In SPARQL, graphs are immutable values. Graph store is slots holding values. ←
15:50:39 <pchampin> cygri: the current RDF model does not take time into account; a graph is a snapshot view of the world
Richard Cyganiak: the current RDF model does not take time into account; a graph is a snapshot view of the world ←
15:51:31 <pchampin> sandro: agreed, RDF is about snapshots, but computers often deal with changing things
Sandro Hawke: agreed, RDF is about snapshots, but computers often deal with changing things ←
15:51:36 <Guus> "RDF graph" in SPARQL doc = g-box, in RDF docs = g-snap?
Guus Schreiber: "RDF graph" in SPARQL doc = g-box, in RDF docs = g-snap? ←
15:52:04 <pchampin> cygri: you can make an RDF statement like "this graph is the state of that thing", "this graph is valid from time t0 to time t1"
Richard Cyganiak: you can make an RDF statement like "this graph is the state of that thing", "this graph is valid from time t0 to time t1" ←
15:52:26 <AndyS> Guus, RDF graph = g-snap.
Andy Seaborne: Guus, RDF graph = g-snap. ←
15:52:30 <AZ> Guus, RDF graph is a set of triples in RDF specs *and* in SPARQL specs
Antoine Zimmermann: Guus, RDF graph is a set of triples in RDF specs *and* in SPARQL specs ←
15:52:37 <pchampin> ... provided the correct vocabulary; but this group does not have to provide such a vocabulary, only the underlying data model
... provided the correct vocabulary; but this group does not have to provide such a vocabulary, only the underlying data model ←
15:53:07 <AndyS> q+ to ask Sandro about spec text he thinks is unhelpful.
Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask Sandro about spec text he thinks is unhelpful. ←
15:53:08 <AZ> Guus, but SPARQL use the word "graph" in the phrase "named graph", in which case it's mutable
Antoine Zimmermann: Guus, but SPARQL use the word "graph" in the phrase "named graph", in which case it's mutable ←
15:53:11 <pchampin> sandro: either us or the provenance WG has to do it
Sandro Hawke: either us or the provenance WG has to do it ←
15:53:17 <pchampin> ... or a joint task force
... or a joint task force ←
15:53:30 <pchampin> q+ to ask a question to Richard
q+ to ask a question to Richard ←
15:54:12 <pchampin> cygri: we should ask the provenance WG whether they have use cases that the SPARQL model does not solve
Richard Cyganiak: we should ask the provenance WG whether they have use cases that the SPARQL model does not solve ←
15:54:20 <Guus> ack AndyS
Guus Schreiber: ack AndyS ←
15:54:20 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask Sandro about spec text he thinks is unhelpful.
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask Sandro about spec text he thinks is unhelpful. ←
15:54:54 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:54:54 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
15:54:55 <MacTed> q+
Ted Thibodeau: q+ ←
15:55:00 <cygri> scribe: cygri
(Scribe set to Richard Cyganiak)
15:55:55 <cygri> sandro: for provenance use cases, you need a tight association between the triples in a graph, and the URI we make provenance statements about
Sandro Hawke: for provenance use cases, you need a tight association between the triples in a graph, and the URI we make provenance statements about ←
15:56:46 <pchampin> @Andy, this is related: what is named in SPARQL-update ? (imutable) graphs or slots?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: @Andy, this is related: what is named in SPARQL-update ? (imutable) graphs or slots? ←
15:57:01 <MacTed> containers and contained is the issue I see.... trying to respect vocal queue....
Ted Thibodeau: containers and contained is the issue I see.... trying to respect vocal queue.... ←
15:57:02 <cygri> gavinc: is there a way in SPARQL 1.1 to name a graph and freeze that graph?
Gavin Carothers: is there a way in SPARQL 1.1 to name a graph and freeze that graph? ←
15:57:24 <cygri> AndyS: no
Andy Seaborne: no ←
15:57:33 <cygri> sandro: that's the kind of functionality that would be needed for provenance
Sandro Hawke: that's the kind of functionality that would be needed for provenance ←
15:57:41 <Guus> ack pchampin
Guus Schreiber: ack pchampin ←
15:57:41 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to ask a question to Richard
Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin, you wanted to ask a question to Richard ←
15:57:45 <AndyS> ack me
Andy Seaborne: ack me ←
15:57:46 <pchampin> my question to Richard:
Pierre-Antoine Champin: my question to Richard: ←
15:58:06 <pchampin> if we define precisely a data model
Pierre-Antoine Champin: if we define precisely a data model ←
15:58:16 <pchampin> what is the cost of defining the associated vocabulary?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: what is the cost of defining the associated vocabulary? ←
15:58:38 <pchampin> :-)
Pierre-Antoine Champin: :-) ←
15:58:45 <AndyS> Freeze a value is HTTP GET :-)
Andy Seaborne: Freeze a value is HTTP GET :-) ←
15:58:56 <pchampin> (I think you stated that we need to define a data model, but not the vocabulary for representing it)
Pierre-Antoine Champin: (I think you stated that we need to define a data model, but not the vocabulary for representing it) ←
15:59:00 <gavinc> But that doesn't freeze the NAME
Gavin Carothers: But that doesn't freeze the NAME ←
15:59:01 <pchampin> yes, I'm suggesting that it is low
Pierre-Antoine Champin: yes, I'm suggesting that it is low ←
15:59:18 <gavinc> I think that's really all we need?
Gavin Carothers: I think that's really all we need? ←
15:59:29 <pchampin> cygri: provenance is a complex issue
Richard Cyganiak: provenance is a complex issue [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
15:59:46 <pchampin> cygri: ppl have been working for quite a while on an implicit named graph model
Richard Cyganiak: ppl have been working for quite a while on an implicit multi-graph model [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
16:00:00 <AndyS> Name is the serialization if you want to use with a store with change-of-slot value. Or use store that uses naming how you want.
Andy Seaborne: Name is the serialization if you want to use with a store with change-of-slot value. Or use store that uses naming how you want. ←
16:00:05 <pchampin> cygri: we need to provide an explicit model for them (charter of the groupe)
Richard Cyganiak: we need to provide an explicit model for them (charter of the groupe) [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
16:00:09 <pchampin> s/named graph/multi-graph/
16:00:20 <FabGandon> q+ there are two kinds of vocabularies.
Fabien Gandon: q+ there are two kinds of vocabularies. ←
16:00:25 <pchampin> cygri: but we don't need to enter into detail provenance use cases
Richard Cyganiak: but we don't need to enter into detail provenance use cases [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
16:00:28 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
16:00:54 <cygri> MacTed: i see a lack of coherent account of containers and contained structures
Ted Thibodeau: i see a lack of coherent account of containers and contained structures ←
16:01:09 <cygri> ... in the SQL world, there's a concept of a database
... in the SQL world, there's a concept of a database ←
16:01:13 <FabGandon> q+ to say there are two kinds of vocabularies.
Fabien Gandon: q+ to say there are two kinds of vocabularies. ←
16:01:17 <cygri> .. that's somewhat equivalent to RDF store
.. that's somewhat equivalent to RDF store ←
16:01:29 <cygri> ... a database contains catalogs, which contains schemas, which contains tables
... a database contains catalogs, which contains schemas, which contains tables ←
16:01:41 <cygri> ... RDF stores contain graphs, which are somewhat equivalent to catalogs
... RDF stores contain graphs, which are somewhat equivalent to catalogs ←
16:01:49 <cygri> ... (or that's how people use them)
... (or that's how people use them) ←
16:02:11 <cygri> ... the term graph here is horribly overused
... the term graph here is horribly overused ←
16:02:27 <cygri> ... it can mean catalog, snapshot, etc etc
... it can mean catalog, snapshot, etc etc ←
16:02:30 <gavinc> Also amusing issue with Turtle in HTML: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/tip/rdf-turtle/index.html is a set of RDF Graphs, Dataset? ;)
Gavin Carothers: Also amusing issue with Turtle in HTML: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/tip/rdf-turtle/index.html is a set of RDF Graphs, Dataset? ;) ←
16:02:37 <cygri> ... we need more specific terms for more specific things
... we need more specific terms for more specific things ←
16:02:59 <cygri> ... without more specific terms, provenance cannot succeed
... without more specific terms, provenance cannot succeed ←
16:03:04 <cygri> cygri: kinda +1 to MacTed
Richard Cyganiak: kinda +1 to MacTed ←
16:03:09 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
16:03:09 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
16:03:16 <Guus> +1 to MacTed
Guus Schreiber: +1 to MacTed ←
16:03:17 <MacTed> ack
Ted Thibodeau: ack ←
16:03:27 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
16:03:30 <MacTed> ack me
Ted Thibodeau: ack me ←
16:03:34 <cygri> gavinc: i had multiple bits of turtle in one html file. what should i call these things?
Gavin Carothers: i had multiple bits of turtle in one html file. what should i call these things? ←
16:03:40 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
16:03:40 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
16:03:43 <MacTed> q-
Ted Thibodeau: q- ←
16:03:44 <cygri> davidwood: how about dataset?
David Wood: how about dataset? ←
16:03:56 <cygri> gavinc: well but that's a SPARQL term
Gavin Carothers: well but that's a SPARQL term ←
16:04:24 <cygri> FabGandon: for me there are two kinds of vocabularies, domain dependent and domain independent
Fabien Gandon: for me there are two kinds of vocabularies, domain dependent and domain independent ←
16:04:29 <Guus> ack FabGandon
Guus Schreiber: ack FabGandon ←
16:04:30 <Zakim> FabGandon, you wanted to say there are two kinds of vocabularies.
Zakim IRC Bot: FabGandon, you wanted to say there are two kinds of vocabularies. ←
16:04:54 <cygri> ... for the provenance WG, something like attaching the date to a graph should be defined not by the RDF WG, but by the prov WG
... for the provenance WG, something like attaching the date to a graph should be defined not by the RDF WG, but by the prov WG ←
16:04:57 <AndyS> an RDF dataset is {G,(URIi, Gi)} -- Gavinc seems to want {Gi} (set of graphs? set of g-texts?)
Andy Seaborne: an RDF dataset is {G,(URIi, Gi)} -- Gavinc seems to want {Gi} (set of graphs? set of g-texts?) ←
16:05:10 <MacTed> date of g-text falls into the "metadata" about that g-text ... but g-text needs that name in order to have such metadata...
Ted Thibodeau: date of g-text falls into the "metadata" about that g-text ... but g-text needs that name in order to have such metadata... ←
16:05:18 <gavinc> Yeah, how do those graphs in the Turtle HTML get named?
Gavin Carothers: Yeah, how do those graphs in the Turtle HTML get named? ←
16:05:28 <cygri> ... but stating that something is a g-text should be done by the RDF WG
... but stating that something is a g-text should be done by the RDF WG ←
16:05:29 <sandro> +1 we should be doing the vocab for talking about RDF (eg the replacement for RDF reification)
Sandro Hawke: +1 we should be doing the vocab for talking about RDF (eg the replacement for RDF reification) ←
16:06:22 <cygri> gavinc: my problem was that i have a single HTML document that contains multiple ... g-texts? g-snaps? that are not particularly named ...
Gavin Carothers: my problem was that i have a single HTML document that contains multiple ... g-texts? g-snaps? that are not particularly named ... ←
16:06:23 <sandro> they get named via HTML id's, I think.
Sandro Hawke: they get named via HTML id's, I think. ←
16:06:36 <cygri> ... so it's multiple graphs in one document
... so it's multiple graphs in one document ←
16:06:50 <cygri> AndyS: there are other collections of RDF graphs that are not RDF datasets
Andy Seaborne: there are other collections of RDF graphs that are not RDF datasets ←
16:07:06 <cygri> gavinc: yes and we need more specific terms
Gavin Carothers: yes and we need more specific terms ←
16:07:20 <cygri> sandro: this should say SPARQL dataset, not RDF dataset
Sandro Hawke: this should say SPARQL dataset, not RDF dataset ←
16:07:28 <cygri> AndyS: SPARQL term is RDF dataset
Andy Seaborne: SPARQL term is RDF dataset ←
16:07:52 <LeeF> I would object to redefining the term "RDF dataset"
Lee Feigenbaum: I would object to redefining the term "RDF dataset" ←
16:09:11 <cygri> sandro: dataset is such a good term, it's a shame to use it for such a peculiar thing as a SPARQL dataset
Sandro Hawke: dataset is such a good term, it's a shame to use it for such a peculiar thing as a SPARQL dataset ←
16:09:23 <pchampin> graphset ?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: graphset ? ←
16:10:12 <sandro> sandro: so maybe the turtle texts each get their html ID, forming named graphs in the dataset, and the RDF or un-id'd turtle goes into the default graph.
Sandro Hawke: so maybe the turtle texts each get their html ID, forming named graphs in the dataset, and the RDF or un-id'd turtle goes into the default graph. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:10:22 <cygri> guus: i think we made some progress here. is it useful to involve the provenance wg?
Guus Schreiber: i think we made some progress here. is it useful to involve the provenance wg? ←
16:10:31 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
16:10:31 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
16:10:40 <cygri> ... my feeling is we should still make up our minds on terminology
... my feeling is we should still make up our minds on terminology ←
16:10:43 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
16:10:51 <cygri> sandro: i think some sort of liaison would be helpful
Sandro Hawke: i think some sort of liaison would be helpful ←
16:10:59 <cygri> ... to get their use cases clear
... to get their use cases clear ←
16:11:11 <cygri> ... maybe a joint TF
... maybe a joint TF ←
16:11:31 <cygri> ... or communicate via documents. they have a primary use case written up on their wiki
... or communicate via documents. they have a primary use case written up on their wiki ←
16:11:42 <cygri> MacTed: i think some cross-pollination is necessary
Ted Thibodeau: i think some cross-pollination is necessary ←
16:12:15 <cygri> ... many WGs look at small-case stuff without realizing that they're looking at a small part
... many WGs look at small-case stuff without realizing that they're looking at a small part ←
16:12:23 <cygri> ... that's the root of many problems
... that's the root of many problems ←
16:12:43 <AndyS> From the XG: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Use_Cases
Andy Seaborne: From the XG: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Use_Cases ←
16:12:52 <Guus> oroisal for joint RDF-Prov TF; who are volunteers to join?
Guus Schreiber: proposal for joint RDF-Prov TF; who are volunteers to join? ←
16:13:13 <Guus> s/oroisal/proposal
16:13:50 <cygri> ... (discussion on philosophy of changing terms etc)
... (discussion on philosophy of changing terms etc) ←
16:14:54 <cygri> guus: we're out of time. any volunteers for a joint TF with prov group?
Guus Schreiber: we're out of time. any volunteers for a joint call with prov group? ←
16:14:58 <sandro> I'll join such a call
Sandro Hawke: I'll join such a call ←
16:15:05 <cygri> MacTed: i'd join
Ted Thibodeau: i'd join ←
16:15:11 <cygri> s/TF/call/
16:15:24 <cygri> guus: i can organize such a call. not likely to happen before august
Guus Schreiber: i can organize such a call. not likely to happen before august ←
16:15:27 <gavinc> ... I'll join... wince
Gavin Carothers: ... I'll join... wince ←
16:15:31 <cygri> cygri: i'd join too
Richard Cyganiak: i'd join too ←
16:15:31 <Souri> I'd like to join also
Souripriya Das: I'd like to join also ←
16:15:50 <AZ> I think I'd join too
Antoine Zimmermann: I think I'd join too ←
16:16:03 <pchampin> depending on the time slot, I'll try to join as well
Pierre-Antoine Champin: depending on the time slot, I'll try to join as well ←
16:16:16 <cygri> ACTION: guus to send email to provenance WG chairs about a joint call
ACTION: guus to send email to provenance WG chairs about a joint call ←
16:16:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-70 - Send email to provenance WG chairs about a joint call [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-07-27].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-70 - Send email to provenance WG chairs about a joint call [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-07-27]. ←
16:16:36 <sandro> action: guus to email team-prov-chairs@w3.org about joint task force, or something. maybe include RDFa and SPARQL
ACTION: guus to email team-prov-chairs@w3.org about joint task force, or something. maybe include RDFa and SPARQL ←
16:16:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-71 - Email team-prov-chairs@w3.org about joint task force, or something. maybe include RDFa and SPARQL [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-07-27].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-71 - Email team-prov-chairs@w3.org about joint task force, or something. maybe include RDFa and SPARQL [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-07-27]. ←
16:16:48 <cygri> MacTed: might want to involve more than these groups. also SPARQL, rdb2rdf, rdfa ...
Ted Thibodeau: might want to involve more than these groups. also SPARQL, rdb2rdf, rdfa ... ←
16:16:51 <gavinc> ... how owl:imports acts ... :\
Gavin Carothers: ... how owl:imports acts ... :\ ←
16:17:30 <Zakim> -Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri ←
16:17:30 <cygri> guus: adjourned
Guus Schreiber: adjourned ←
16:20:22 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended ←
16:20:24 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.707.861.aaaa, gavinc, yvesr, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, MacTed, Guus, EricP, +1.540.898.aacc, +539149aadd, davidwood, Sandro, cygri, +1.617.553.aaee, LeeF, SteveH,
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +1.707.861.aaaa, gavinc, yvesr, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, MacTed, Guus, EricP, +1.540.898.aacc, +539149aadd, davidwood, Sandro, cygri, +1.617.553.aaee, LeeF, SteveH, ←
16:20:26 <Zakim> ... mischat, mbrunati, FabGandon, +1.404.978.aaff, tomayac, NickH, AZ, pchampin, +1.603.897.aagg, Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: ... mischat, mbrunati, FabGandon, +1.404.978.aaff, tomayac, NickH, AZ, pchampin, +1.603.897.aagg, Souri ←
16:23:40 <cygri> RRSAgent, make logs public
RRSAgent, make logs public ←
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