edit

RDF Working Group

Minutes of 20 July 2011

Seen
Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Fabien Gandon, Gavin Carothers, Guus Schreiber, Lee Feigenbaum, Matteo Brunati, Mischa Tuffield, Nicholas Humfrey, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Richard Cyganiak, Sandro Hawke, Scott Bauer, Souripriya Das, Steve Harris, Ted Thibodeau, Thomas Steiner, Yves Raimond
Scribe
Richard Cyganiak, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Eric Prud'hommeaux
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. accept last week's minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-07-06 link
  2. accept turtle status text as proposed link
Topics
14:57:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/20-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/20-rdf-wg-irc

14:58:19 <gavinc> zakim, this is rdfwg

Gavin Carothers: zakim, this is rdfwg

14:58:19 <Zakim> ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

14:58:29 <yvesr> Zakim, who is on the phone?

Yves Raimond: Zakim, who is on the phone?

14:58:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.707.861.aaaa, +20598aabb, ??P9

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +1.707.861.aaaa, +20598aabb, ??P9

14:58:37 <gavinc> zakim, aaaa is me

Gavin Carothers: zakim, aaaa is me

14:58:37 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc; got it

14:58:45 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P9 is me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P9 is me

14:58:45 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it

14:59:16 <Zakim> +Tony

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tony

14:59:33 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, Tony is me

Scott Bauer: Zakim, Tony is me

14:59:33 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Scott_Bauer; got it

15:00:25 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

15:00:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, +20598aabb, yvesr, Scott_Bauer

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, +20598aabb, yvesr, Scott_Bauer

15:00:26 <MacTed> Zakim, code?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, code?

15:00:26 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MacTed

15:00:28 <Zakim> +??P15

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15

15:00:34 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:00:35 <AndyS> zakim, ??P15 is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P15 is me

15:00:35 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

15:00:40 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:00:40 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:00:42 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:00:42 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:01:00 <Guus> zakim, +20598aabb is me

Guus Schreiber: zakim, +20598aabb is me

15:01:00 <Zakim> +Guus; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus; got it

15:01:03 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

15:01:23 <Zakim> + +1.540.898.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.540.898.aacc

15:01:54 <Zakim> + +539149aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +539149aadd

15:02:04 <davidwood> Zakim, aacc is me

David Wood: Zakim, aacc is me

15:02:05 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it

15:02:39 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

15:02:42 <cygri> zakim, aadd is me

Richard Cyganiak: zakim, aadd is me

15:02:42 <Zakim> +cygri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it

15:03:04 <Zakim> +??P22

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22

15:03:13 <Zakim> + +1.617.553.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.617.553.aaee

15:03:17 <LeeF> zakim, aaee is me

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, aaee is me

15:03:17 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF; got it

15:03:28 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P22 is me

Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P22 is me

15:03:28 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it

15:03:41 <cygri> scribe: cygri

(Scribe set to Richard Cyganiak)

15:03:44 <Zakim> +??P26

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26

15:03:53 <mischat> zakim, ??P26 is me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, ??P26 is me

15:03:55 <Zakim> +mischat; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +mischat; got it

15:03:57 <Zakim> -SteveH

Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH

15:03:59 <mischat> zakim, mute me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me

15:04:01 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: mischat should now be muted

15:04:07 <Zakim> +??P27

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27

15:04:12 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P27 is me

Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P27 is me

15:04:13 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it

15:04:17 <cygri> topic: Admin

1. Admin

15:04:35 <Zakim> +??P22

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22

15:04:51 <mbrunati> zakim, ??P22 is me

Matteo Brunati: zakim, ??P22 is me

15:04:51 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +mbrunati; got it

15:05:06 <cygri> PROPOSAL: accept last week's minutes  http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-07-06

PROPOSED: accept last week's minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-07-06

15:05:25 <cygri> RESOLUTION: accept last week's minutes  http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-07-06

RESOLVED: accept last week's minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-07-06

15:05:27 <Zakim> +Bert

Zakim IRC Bot: +Bert

15:05:36 <cygri> topic: Action item review

2. Action item review

15:05:49 <FabGandon> Zakim, Bert is me

Fabien Gandon: Zakim, Bert is me

15:05:49 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +FabGandon; got it

15:05:55 <Zakim> + +1.404.978.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.404.978.aaff

15:06:06 <cygri> guus: richard did ACTION-64, it's done, close it

Guus Schreiber: richard did ACTION-64, it's done, close it

15:06:13 <tomayac> zakim, aaff is me

Thomas Steiner: zakim, aaff is me

15:06:13 <Zakim> +tomayac; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac; got it

15:06:32 <cygri> sandro: didn't do ACTION-52 yet

Sandro Hawke: didn't do ACTION-52 yet

15:07:42 <cygri> cygri: ACTION-62 done on list (not on wiki)

Richard Cyganiak: ACTION-62 done on list (not on wiki)

15:08:06 <cygri> ACTION-65?

ACTION-65?

15:08:07 <trackbot> ACTION-65 -- Sandro Hawke to and Pat to consider what words to add to minimal proposal. -- due 2011-06-29 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-65 -- Sandro Hawke to and Pat to consider what words to add to minimal proposal. -- due 2011-06-29 -- OPEN

15:08:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/65

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/65

15:08:17 <Zakim> +??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5

15:08:18 <cygri> sandro: not yet done

Sandro Hawke: not yet done

15:08:26 <NickH> zakim, ??P5 is me

Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, ??P5 is me

15:08:26 <Zakim> +NickH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it

15:08:31 <NickH> zakim, mute me

Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, mute me

15:08:31 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted

15:08:32 <cygri> guus: ACTION-66 not yet done, paul on holiday

Guus Schreiber: ACTION-66 not yet done, paul on holiday

15:08:39 <yvesr> Zakim, mute me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, mute me

15:08:39 <Zakim> yvesr should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: yvesr should now be muted

15:09:08 <cygri> ... ACTION-67 and ACTION-68 remain open

... ACTION-67 and ACTION-68 remain open

15:09:34 <cygri> ... next telecon is August 3

... next telecon is August 3

15:09:47 <cygri> davidwood: i can chair on that date

David Wood: i can chair on that date

15:09:55 <cygri> topic: Turtle Editors Draft

3. Turtle Editors Draft

15:10:04 <cygri> guus: davidwood made transition request

Guus Schreiber: davidwood made transition request

15:10:11 <cygri> ... there are still admin things to be done

... there are still admin things to be done

15:10:30 <gavinc> Turtle is already a reasonably settled serialization of RDF. Many implementations of Turtle already exist, we are hoping for feedback from those existing implementors and other people deciding that now would be a good time to support Turtle. There are still a few rough edges that need polishing, and better alignment with the SPARQL triple patterns. The working group does not expect to make any large changes to the existing syntax.

Gavin Carothers: Turtle is already a reasonably settled serialization of RDF. Many implementations of Turtle already exist, we are hoping for feedback from those existing implementors and other people deciding that now would be a good time to support Turtle. There are still a few rough edges that need polishing, and better alignment with the SPARQL triple patterns. The working group does not expect to make any large changes to the existing syntax.

15:10:40 <cygri> gavinc: we now have status paragraph that the WG needs to agree to

Gavin Carothers: we now have status paragraph that the WG needs to agree to

15:11:04 <cygri> davidwood: we need to find words in this telecon that reflect the status as the WG sees it

David Wood: we need to find words in this telecon that reflect the status as the WG sees it

15:11:49 <cygri> guus: i'm happy with the text

Guus Schreiber: i'm happy with the text

15:11:49 <ericP> +1 to text

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to text

15:11:53 <AndyS> Looks good for WD

Andy Seaborne: Looks good for WD

15:12:12 <cygri> PROPOSAL: accept status text as proposed

PROPOSED: accept status text as proposed

15:12:24 <cygri> RESOLUTION: accept turtle status text as proposed

RESOLVED: accept turtle status text as proposed

15:13:06 <Zakim> +wcandillon

Zakim IRC Bot: +wcandillon

15:13:11 <cygri> sandro: technically speaking, the team contacts write this text. discussing it is fine though

Sandro Hawke: technically speaking, the team contacts write this text. discussing it is fine though

15:13:19 <AZ> Zakim, wcandillon is me

Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, wcandillon is me

15:13:19 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it

15:13:53 <cygri> guus: i'd like to take brief look on turtle issues http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products/3

Guus Schreiber: i'd like to take brief look on turtle issues http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products/3

15:14:35 <cygri> gavinc: most of these issues are already resolved, just not closed

Gavin Carothers: most of these issues are already resolved, just not closed

15:14:50 <Zakim> +??P31

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P31

15:15:27 <AndyS> ISSUE-1 => ISSUE-19 , ISSUE-20

Andy Seaborne: ISSUE-1 => ISSUE-19 , ISSUE-20

15:15:54 <cygri> ericP: (discussion of ISSUE-67)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: (discussion of ISSUE-67)

15:16:16 <cygri> ericP: SPARQL is changing escaping rules

Eric Prud'hommeaux: SPARQL is changing escaping rules

15:16:34 <AndyS> Why \u in prefix part?  What is it escaping?

Andy Seaborne: Why \u in prefix part? What is it escaping?

15:16:35 <cygri> ... used to escape everywhere; now escapes only certain places; discussion is which places exactly

... used to escape everywhere; now escapes only certain places; discussion is which places exactly

15:16:57 <cygri> guus: gavin, can you take action to update the issue list?

Guus Schreiber: gavin, can you take action to update the issue list?

15:17:04 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aagg

15:17:06 <cygri> ACTION: gavinc to update Turtle issue list to reflect current status

ACTION: gavinc to update Turtle issue list to reflect current status

15:17:18 <Souri> zakim, aagg is me

Souripriya Das: zakim, aagg is me

15:17:18 <Zakim> +Souri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri; got it

15:17:32 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/d74c1b87d47f/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-diff-ntriples

Gavin Carothers: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/d74c1b87d47f/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-diff-ntriples

15:17:45 <cygri> gavinc: (discusses the section on relationship between turtle and n-triples)

Gavin Carothers: (discusses the section on relationship between turtle and n-triples)

15:18:29 <cygri> ericP: question to the community is whether they'd want a section that describes the subset of turtle that's n-triples

Eric Prud'hommeaux: question to the community is whether they'd want a section that describes the subset of turtle that's n-triples

15:19:05 <cygri> gavinc: defining n-triples as part of turtle would have implications on utf-8 support

Gavin Carothers: defining n-triples as part of turtle would have implications on utf-8 support

15:19:24 <AndyS> q+ to ask about MIME types

Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask about MIME types

15:19:49 <cygri> ericP: we could publish n-triples as part of turtle, or as a separate document

Eric Prud'hommeaux: we could publish n-triples as part of turtle, or as a separate document

15:20:04 <cygri> AndyS: if we make it a chapter, then how do we handle the media type registration?

Andy Seaborne: if we make it a chapter, then how do we handle the media type registration?

15:20:08 <Souri> +1 to ericP's proposal that we add a section that describes the subset of turtle that's n-triples or as a separate document

Souripriya Das: +1 to ericP's proposal that we add a section that describes the subset of turtle that's n-triples or as a separate document

15:20:17 <ericP> current media type for ntriples is text/plain

Eric Prud'hommeaux: current media type for ntriples is text/plain

15:20:19 <cygri> gavinc: that's a problem. we may be better off making a separate document

Gavin Carothers: that's a problem. we may be better off making a separate document

15:20:33 <cygri> ... otoh, it means more boilerplate and more document than we really need

... otoh, it means more boilerplate and more document than we really need

15:20:38 <NickH> +1 to getting a proper MIME type for n-triples

Nicholas Humfrey: +1 to getting a proper MIME type for n-triples

15:21:13 <cygri> guus: can you make a proposal?

Guus Schreiber: can you make a proposal?

15:21:31 <cygri> gavinc: it would have wide-ranging implications. it's defined in a different document that we may not plan to change?

Gavin Carothers: it would have wide-ranging implications. it's defined in a different document that we may not plan to change?

15:21:41 <cygri> AndyS: it's currently defined in the RDF Test Cases document

Andy Seaborne: it's currently defined in the RDF Test Cases document

15:21:55 <cygri> gavinc: it's a bit weird at the moment, parts are informative

Gavin Carothers: it's a bit weird at the moment, parts are informative

15:21:56 <AndyS> New MIME type - text/plain is "unhelpful" at best.

Andy Seaborne: New MIME type - text/plain is "unhelpful" at best.

15:22:04 <cygri> guus: i agree. that's something we want to fix

Guus Schreiber: i agree. that's something we want to fix

15:22:04 <pchampin> is the plan to make n-triples accept UTF-8?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: is the plan to make n-triples accept UTF-8?

15:22:36 <cygri> gavinc: can we have a poll? separate document vs. section in turtle?

Gavin Carothers: can we have a poll? separate document vs. section in turtle?

15:23:23 <cygri> ericP: if nt is ASCII only, then that's a bigger change, not quite just subset

Eric Prud'hommeaux: if nt is ASCII only, then that's a bigger change, not quite just subset

15:23:28 <cygri> sandro: POLL:   (1) ntriples in turtle document, (2) ntriples in its own document

Sandro Hawke: POLL: (1) ntriples in turtle document, (2) ntriples in its own document

15:23:47 <sandro> 1

Sandro Hawke: 1

15:23:53 <gavinc> 1

Gavin Carothers: 1

15:23:53 <yvesr> 1

Yves Raimond: 1

15:23:56 <cygri> cygri: 2

Richard Cyganiak: 2

15:23:58 <mbrunati> 1

Matteo Brunati: 1

15:24:02 <AndyS> Don't care : UTF-8 v important.

Andy Seaborne: Don't care : UTF-8 v important.

15:24:04 <davidwood> 1

David Wood: 1

15:24:06 <AZ> 0 (not decided)

Antoine Zimmermann: 0 (not decided)

15:24:08 <Guus> 1

Guus Schreiber: 1

15:24:14 <pchampin> 0 (not decided)

Pierre-Antoine Champin: 0 (not decided)

15:24:25 <Souri> don't care

Souripriya Das: don't care

15:24:25 <cygri> ericP: we can go FPWD with turtle now either way

Eric Prud'hommeaux: we can go FPWD with turtle now either way

15:24:29 <MacTed> 0

Ted Thibodeau: 0

15:24:35 <tomayac> 0

Thomas Steiner: 0

15:25:08 <cygri> guus: let's do poll on UTF-8 vs ascii to?

Guus Schreiber: let's do poll on UTF-8 vs ascii too?

15:25:12 <cygri> s/to/too/
15:25:50 <SteveH> I don't prefer ASCII, FWIW

Steve Harris: I don't prefer ASCII, FWIW

15:25:51 <cygri> (discussion of performance of utf-8 vs ascii)

(discussion of performance of utf-8 vs ascii)

15:25:56 <SteveH> I'd rather have UTF-8

Steve Harris: I'd rather have UTF-8

15:26:07 <cygri> q+

q+

15:26:13 <AndyS> ack me

Andy Seaborne: ack me

15:26:13 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about MIME types

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask about MIME types

15:26:18 <davidwood> utf-8++

David Wood: utf-8++

15:26:21 <yvesr> +1 on utf-8

Yves Raimond: +1 on utf-8

15:26:25 <NickH> +1 on utf-8

Nicholas Humfrey: +1 on utf-8

15:26:36 <cygri> +1 on utf-8

+1 on utf-8

15:26:38 <tomayac> utf-8

Thomas Steiner: utf-8

15:26:38 <Guus> 0

Guus Schreiber: 0

15:26:41 <LeeF> 0

Lee Feigenbaum: 0

15:26:42 <pchampin> would utf-8 mean that \uXXXX are not allowed anymore ?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: would utf-8 mean that \uXXXX are not allowed anymore ?

15:26:43 <ericP> -.5 to utf-8

Eric Prud'hommeaux: -.5 to utf-8

15:26:46 <mbrunati> +1 on utf-8

Matteo Brunati: +1 on utf-8

15:26:47 <yvesr> (seems slighly weird it's not yet!)

Yves Raimond: (seems slighly weird it's not yet!)

15:26:47 <AndyS> +1 to UTF-8

Andy Seaborne: +1 to UTF-8

15:26:48 <sandro> 0

Sandro Hawke: 0

15:26:55 <SteveH> +1 to UTF-8

Steve Harris: +1 to UTF-8

15:27:01 <cygri> gavinc: \uXXXX would still be legal

Gavin Carothers: \uXXXX would still be legal

15:27:01 <gavinc> +1 utf-8

Gavin Carothers: +1 utf-8

15:27:18 <pchampin> so it means that there are several ways to serialize the same graph in n-triples?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: so it means that there are several ways to serialize the same graph in n-triples?

15:27:23 <cygri> ericP: for high throughput, ascii is faster

Eric Prud'hommeaux: for high throughput, ascii is faster

15:27:33 <pchampin> makes it grep/sed/sort-unfriendly

Pierre-Antoine Champin: makes it grep/sed/sort-unfriendly

15:27:35 <SteveH> I dispute "much" as well

Steve Harris: I dispute "much" as well

15:27:38 <cygri> AndyS: i don't think it's much faster

Andy Seaborne: i don't think it's much faster

15:28:04 <cygri> ericP: only reason for using nt is performance

Eric Prud'hommeaux: only reason for using nt is performance

15:28:13 <NickH> you can write a much faster parser, if you know to only expect n-triples

Nicholas Humfrey: you can write a much faster parser, if you know to only expect n-triples

15:28:46 <cygri> AndyS: i got 90k with turtle and 120k with nt, with same character conversion code

Andy Seaborne: i got 90k with turtle and 120k with nt, with same character conversion code

15:28:52 <yvesr> NickH, yes, it still need to have its own mimetype

Yves Raimond: NickH, yes, it still need to have its own mimetype

15:28:58 <SteveH> pchampin, modern grep etc. is UTF-8 compatible

Steve Harris: pchampin, modern grep etc. is UTF-8 compatible

15:29:07 <cygri> (discussion of lexing and escaping)

(discussion of lexing and escaping)

15:29:56 <pchampin> @steveh: yes, but grep does not know that "\uc3a9" is the same as "é", or does it??

Pierre-Antoine Champin: @steveh: yes, but grep does not know that "\uc3a9" is the same as "é", or does it??

15:30:11 <SteveH> pchampin, that's not a UTF-8 thing though

Steve Harris: pchampin, that's not a UTF-8 thing though

15:30:16 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

15:30:19 <NickH> yvesr: yes, it needs its own MIME type

Yves Raimond: yes, it needs its own MIME type [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ]

15:30:22 <Guus> ack cygri

Guus Schreiber: ack cygri

15:30:35 <AndyS> Can delay Unicode conversion and work in bytes only in UTF-8

Andy Seaborne: Can delay Unicode conversion and work in bytes only in UTF-8

15:30:53 <cygri> cygri: serializers would become simpler if utf-8 was allowed

Richard Cyganiak: serializers would become simpler if utf-8 was allowed

15:30:40 <yvesr> cygri, +1

Yves Raimond: cygri, +1

15:30:47 <NickH> AndyS: yes!

Andy Seaborne: yes! [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ]

15:31:04 <cygri> gavinc: last time we had objection from oracle

Gavin Carothers: last time we had objection from oracle

15:31:14 <cygri> souri: we use n-triples a lot

Souripriya Das: we use n-triples a lot

15:31:50 <cygri> ... we'll have to modify our software if we get input that uses utf-8

... we'll have to modify our software if we get input that uses utf-8

15:32:00 <SteveH> a new name would make some sense

Steve Harris: a new name would make some sense

15:32:06 <SteveH> q+

Steve Harris: q+

15:32:09 <cygri> ... we'd prefer calling the new thing something else, n-triples prime or so

... we'd prefer calling the new thing something else, n-triples prime or so

15:32:13 <cygri> q-

q-

15:32:22 <pchampin> q+ to ask about multiple n-triples serialization for the same graph

Pierre-Antoine Champin: q+ to ask about multiple n-triples serialization for the same graph

15:32:47 <cygri> gavinc: is there an issue if the utf-8 version gets a new media type?

Gavin Carothers: is there an issue if the utf-8 version gets a new media type?

15:32:55 <AndyS> ericP - you are confusing bytes and codepoints.

Andy Seaborne: ericP - you are confusing bytes and codepoints.

15:33:05 <cygri> souri: we need to talk about it internally. might be able to tell you more next week

Souripriya Das: we need to talk about it internally. might be able to tell you more next week

15:33:17 <cygri> steveh: in our code, the change was not that difficult

Steve Harris: in our code, the change was not that difficult

15:33:31 <cygri> ... the problem is deployed software that claims to handle n-triples

... the problem is deployed software that claims to handle n-triples

15:33:59 <Guus> ack SteveH

Guus Schreiber: ack SteveH

15:34:02 <cygri> ... there will be confusion if deployed software has to deal with new data that uses utf-8

... there will be confusion if deployed software has to deal with new data that uses utf-8

15:34:04 <cygri> souri: exactly

Souripriya Das: exactly

15:34:44 <pchampin> I seem to remember a use case of NT:

Pierre-Antoine Champin: I seem to remember a use case of NT:

15:34:44 <AndyS> ericP - that's one way of doing it.  There are others. e.g. Do checking of points elsewhere - lots (and lots!) of impl choices

Andy Seaborne: ericP - that's one way of doing it. There are others. e.g. Do checking of points elsewhere - lots (and lots!) of impl choices

15:34:52 <yvesr> n-triples 1.1?

Yves Raimond: n-triples 1.1?

15:34:55 <pchampin> handling it with text-based tools, such as grep, sed...

Pierre-Antoine Champin: handling it with text-based tools, such as grep, sed...

15:35:25 <yvesr> pchampin, recent versions of those text-based tools deal with utf-8 correctly

Yves Raimond: pchampin, recent versions of those text-based tools deal with utf-8 correctly

15:35:45 <cygri> ericP: we should publish it with an issue that says: we'll make n-triples utf-8, but some people might prefer an ascii version

Eric Prud'hommeaux: we should publish it with an issue that says: we'll make n-triples utf-8, but some people might prefer an ascii version

15:36:13 <cygri> guus: is everyone ok with proceeding in that way?

Guus Schreiber: is everyone ok with proceeding in that way?

15:36:14 <yvesr> pchampin, from grep's man "also work on UTF-8 files and 16-bit wide Unicode files"

Yves Raimond: pchampin, from grep's man "also work on UTF-8 files and 16-bit wide Unicode files"

15:36:19 <cygri> souri: yes

Souripriya Das: yes

15:36:59 <cygri> gavinc: there's still some text in the document that claims that turtle is a subset of n3

Gavin Carothers: there's still some text in the document that claims that turtle is a subset of n3

15:37:05 <cygri> ... that's not strictly true any more

... that's not strictly true any more

15:37:17 <cygri> ... i'd like wg feedback

... i'd like wg feedback

15:37:27 <gavinc> "It is intended to be compatible with, and a subset of, Notation 3."

Gavin Carothers: "It is intended to be compatible with, and a subset of, Notation 3."

15:37:45 <AndyS> q+ to ask about motivation of text

Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask about motivation of text

15:37:48 <cygri> ericP: i suspect tim will change n3 according to what we do with turtle

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i suspect tim will change n3 according to what we do with turtle

15:38:14 <cygri> guus: i'd like to  have a statement in there that says what the issue is, without formal claim about subset

Guus Schreiber: i'd like to have a statement in there that says what the issue is, without formal claim about subset

15:38:15 <NickH> I agree that Turtle doesn't need to be a format subset of N3

Nicholas Humfrey: I agree that Turtle doesn't need to be a format subset of N3

15:38:17 <NickH> formal

Nicholas Humfrey: formal

15:38:21 <NickH> +1 to AndyS

Nicholas Humfrey: +1 to AndyS

15:38:26 <gavinc> +1

Gavin Carothers: +1

15:38:32 <cygri> AndyS: the spec currently says, it's a *goal* to be a subset of n3

Andy Seaborne: the spec currently says, it's a *goal* to be a subset of n3

15:38:41 <cygri> ... we want to make turtle a free-standing language

... we want to make turtle a free-standing language

15:38:45 <AndyS> ack me

Andy Seaborne: ack me

15:38:45 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about motivation of text

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask about motivation of text

15:38:47 <gavinc> Perfectly happy to have N3 say "I'm an extension of Turtle" ;)

Gavin Carothers: Perfectly happy to have N3 say "I'm an extension of Turtle" ;)

15:38:50 <pchampin> q-

Pierre-Antoine Champin: q-

15:38:52 <sandro> Yeah.   "Turtle is similar to, inspired by, and largely compatible with N3"

Sandro Hawke: Yeah. "Turtle is similar to, inspired by, and largely compatible with N3"

15:38:55 <cygri> ... n3 is not a standard

... n3 is not a standard

15:38:56 <Guus> make provenace clear, nof formal subset statement

Guus Schreiber: make provenace clear, nof formal subset statement

15:39:01 <cygri> q+

q+

15:39:13 <cygri> ericP: there are some ppl who come to rdf via n3

Eric Prud'hommeaux: there are some ppl who come to rdf via n3

15:39:18 <yvesr> +1 - it could make a reference to it though

Yves Raimond: +1 - it could make a reference to it though

15:39:21 <yvesr> inspired by?

Yves Raimond: inspired by?

15:39:25 <cygri> AndyS: i don't see any point in documenting the differences

Andy Seaborne: i don't see any point in documenting the differences

15:39:36 <cygri> ... n3 will change, so this will be updated

... n3 will change, so this will be updated

15:39:41 <LeeF> +100 to AndyS

Lee Feigenbaum: +100 to AndyS

15:39:45 <NickH> +1 to AndyS

Nicholas Humfrey: +1 to AndyS

15:39:50 <pchampin> +1 to andyS

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1 to andyS

15:39:50 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

15:39:52 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

15:39:53 <Guus> ack cygri

Guus Schreiber: ack cygri

15:39:54 <Souri> +1 to AndyS

Souripriya Das: +1 to AndyS

15:39:54 <gavinc> +infinity

Gavin Carothers: +infinity

15:40:02 <sandro> yvesr, why do you ask "inspired by" ?     That's a polite way to say 'a blatant ripoff", right?  :-)

Sandro Hawke: yvesr, why do you ask "inspired by" ? That's a polite way to say 'a blatant ripoff", right? :-)

15:40:16 <yvesr> sandro, heh :) yes, sort of

Yves Raimond: sandro, heh :) yes, sort of

15:40:21 <ericP> cygri: "The genesis of Turtle is N3"

Richard Cyganiak: "The genesis of Turtle is N3" [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ]

15:40:32 <ericP> ... i don't see value in detailing the differences

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... i don't see value in detailing the differences

15:40:33 <mischat> i see no reason to talk about n3, +1 AndyS

Mischa Tuffield: i see no reason to talk about n3, +1 AndyS

15:40:39 <Guus> ack yvesr

Guus Schreiber: ack yvesr

15:40:45 <ericP> ... "N3 is a more powerful predecessor of Turtle."

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... "N3 is a more powerful predecessor of Turtle."

15:40:57 <gavinc> "While Notation 3 (N3) syntax played a large role in the creation of Turtle they are not strictly compatable."

Gavin Carothers: "While Notation 3 (N3) syntax played a large role in the creation of Turtle they are not strictly compatable."

15:40:58 <cygri> yvesr: we can leave it to the N3 spec to discuss this in detail

Yves Raimond: we can leave it to the N3 spec to discuss this in detail

15:41:03 <gavinc> that's in the text already

Gavin Carothers: that's in the text already

15:41:11 <cygri> ... just have historic note mentioning n3 in turtle

... just have historic note mentioning n3 in turtle

15:41:22 <cygri> gavinc: ok, so i'll do this change before FPWD

Gavin Carothers: ok, so i'll do this change before FPWD

15:41:25 <LeeF> gavinc, in that above sentence, s/compatable/compatible :-)

Lee Feigenbaum: gavinc, in that above sentence, s/compatable/compatible :-)

15:41:46 <AndyS> Imagine in +10years,  what should the doc say?  Do specs record history? Not a conf paper.

Andy Seaborne: Imagine in +10years, what should the doc say? Do specs record history? Not a conf paper.

15:41:49 <sandro> Guus, still totally breaking up....

Sandro Hawke: Guus, still totally breaking up....

15:41:52 <gavinc> ah yes, being able to spell

Gavin Carothers: ah yes, being able to spell

15:42:02 <cygri> guus: ... ... editorial disgression ... ...

Guus Schreiber: ... ... editorial disgression ... ...

15:42:40 <cygri> topic: Graph terminology

4. Graph terminology

15:42:58 <cygri> q+

q+

15:43:14 <cygri> guus: trying to summarize the consensus:

Guus Schreiber: trying to summarize the consensus:

15:43:20 <cygri> ... g-snap = RDF graph

... g-snap = RDF graph

15:43:33 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

15:45:51 <cygri> cygri: we have a proposal on the table, just adopt SPARQL's design. i want to hear clearly articulated what the problem is about that proposal

Richard Cyganiak: we have a proposal on the table, just adopt SPARQL's design. i want to hear clearly articulated what the problem is about that proposal

15:45:58 <cygri> sandro: sparql misuses the term graph

Sandro Hawke: sparql misuses the term graph

15:46:18 <cygri> ... you can't do provenance if you don't know what's mutable and what's not

... you can't do provenance if you don't know what's mutable and what's not

15:46:24 <sandro> not the spec, but often the community, and it's ambiguous.

Sandro Hawke: not the spec, but often the community, and it's ambiguous.

15:46:30 <cygri> ... (not the sparql spec, but the community misuses the term)

... (not the sparql spec, but the community misuses the term)

15:47:07 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

15:47:16 <ericP> scribenick: pchampin

(Scribe set to Pierre-Antoine Champin)

15:47:26 <Guus> thx pa

Guus Schreiber: thx pa

15:47:41 <ericP> scribenick: ericP

(Scribe set to Eric Prud'hommeaux)

15:47:42 <pchampin> cygri: sandro, are you saying that the spec is not appropriate for doing provenanve? or are just ppl using it the wrong way?

Richard Cyganiak: sandro, are you saying that the spec is not appropriate for doing provenanve? or are just ppl using it the wrong way? [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ]

15:47:46 <ericP> scribenick: pchampin

(Scribe set to Pierre-Antoine Champin)

15:48:19 <pchampin> sandro: the RDF spec should be more useful for doing provenance

Sandro Hawke: the RDF spec should be more useful for doing provenance

15:48:42 <pchampin> cygri: which use case is not currently solved with the SPARQL proposal?

Richard Cyganiak: which use case is not currently solved with the SPARQL proposal?

15:49:15 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

15:49:24 <ericP> we could just provide terms to document the state of the universe at an instant

Eric Prud'hommeaux: we could just provide terms to document the state of the universe at an instant

15:49:42 <Guus> ack cygri

Guus Schreiber: ack cygri

15:49:45 <ericP> so we could just use graph for g-snap and let other invent g-box etc.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: so we could just use graph for g-snap and let other invent g-box etc.

15:49:50 <Guus> ack sandro

Guus Schreiber: ack sandro

15:50:18 <pchampin> sandro: (some distinction btw g-snap and g-box, unmutable vs. mutable graph)

Sandro Hawke: (some distinction btw g-snap and g-box, unmutable vs. mutable graph)

15:50:35 <AndyS> In SPARQL, graphs are immutable values. Graph store is slots holding values.

Andy Seaborne: In SPARQL, graphs are immutable values. Graph store is slots holding values.

15:50:39 <pchampin> cygri: the current RDF model does not take time into account; a graph is a snapshot view of the world

Richard Cyganiak: the current RDF model does not take time into account; a graph is a snapshot view of the world

15:51:31 <pchampin> sandro: agreed, RDF is about snapshots, but computers often deal with changing things

Sandro Hawke: agreed, RDF is about snapshots, but computers often deal with changing things

15:51:36 <Guus> "RDF graph" in SPARQL doc = g-box, in RDF docs = g-snap?

Guus Schreiber: "RDF graph" in SPARQL doc = g-box, in RDF docs = g-snap?

15:52:04 <pchampin> cygri: you can make an RDF statement like "this graph is the state of that thing", "this graph is valid from time t0 to time t1"

Richard Cyganiak: you can make an RDF statement like "this graph is the state of that thing", "this graph is valid from time t0 to time t1"

15:52:26 <AndyS> Guus, RDF graph = g-snap.

Andy Seaborne: Guus, RDF graph = g-snap.

15:52:30 <AZ> Guus, RDF graph is a set of triples in RDF specs *and* in SPARQL specs

Antoine Zimmermann: Guus, RDF graph is a set of triples in RDF specs *and* in SPARQL specs

15:52:37 <pchampin> ... provided the correct vocabulary; but this group does not have to provide such a vocabulary, only the underlying data model

... provided the correct vocabulary; but this group does not have to provide such a vocabulary, only the underlying data model

15:53:07 <AndyS> q+ to ask Sandro about spec text he thinks is unhelpful.

Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask Sandro about spec text he thinks is unhelpful.

15:53:08 <AZ> Guus, but SPARQL use the word "graph" in the phrase "named graph", in which case it's mutable

Antoine Zimmermann: Guus, but SPARQL use the word "graph" in the phrase "named graph", in which case it's mutable

15:53:11 <pchampin> sandro: either us or the provenance WG has to do it

Sandro Hawke: either us or the provenance WG has to do it

15:53:17 <pchampin> ... or a joint task force

... or a joint task force

15:53:30 <pchampin> q+ to ask a question to Richard

q+ to ask a question to Richard

15:54:12 <pchampin> cygri: we should ask the provenance WG whether they have use cases that the SPARQL model does not solve

Richard Cyganiak: we should ask the provenance WG whether they have use cases that the SPARQL model does not solve

15:54:20 <Guus> ack AndyS

Guus Schreiber: ack AndyS

15:54:20 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask Sandro about spec text he thinks is unhelpful.

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask Sandro about spec text he thinks is unhelpful.

15:54:54 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:54:54 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

15:54:55 <MacTed> q+

Ted Thibodeau: q+

15:55:00 <cygri> scribe: cygri

(Scribe set to Richard Cyganiak)

15:55:55 <cygri> sandro: for provenance use cases, you need a tight association between the triples in a graph, and the URI we make provenance statements about

Sandro Hawke: for provenance use cases, you need a tight association between the triples in a graph, and the URI we make provenance statements about

15:56:46 <pchampin> @Andy, this is related: what is named in SPARQL-update ? (imutable) graphs or slots?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: @Andy, this is related: what is named in SPARQL-update ? (imutable) graphs or slots?

15:57:01 <MacTed> containers and contained is the issue I see....  trying to respect vocal queue....

Ted Thibodeau: containers and contained is the issue I see.... trying to respect vocal queue....

15:57:02 <cygri> gavinc: is there a way in SPARQL 1.1 to name a graph and freeze that graph?

Gavin Carothers: is there a way in SPARQL 1.1 to name a graph and freeze that graph?

15:57:24 <cygri> AndyS: no

Andy Seaborne: no

15:57:33 <cygri> sandro: that's the kind of functionality that would be needed for provenance

Sandro Hawke: that's the kind of functionality that would be needed for provenance

15:57:41 <Guus> ack pchampin

Guus Schreiber: ack pchampin

15:57:41 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to ask a question to Richard

Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin, you wanted to ask a question to Richard

15:57:45 <AndyS> ack me

Andy Seaborne: ack me

15:57:46 <pchampin> my question to Richard:

Pierre-Antoine Champin: my question to Richard:

15:58:06 <pchampin> if we define precisely a data model

Pierre-Antoine Champin: if we define precisely a data model

15:58:16 <pchampin> what is the cost of defining the associated vocabulary?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: what is the cost of defining the associated vocabulary?

15:58:38 <pchampin> :-)

Pierre-Antoine Champin: :-)

15:58:45 <AndyS> Freeze a value is HTTP GET :-)

Andy Seaborne: Freeze a value is HTTP GET :-)

15:58:56 <pchampin> (I think you stated that we need to define a data model, but not the vocabulary for representing it)

Pierre-Antoine Champin: (I think you stated that we need to define a data model, but not the vocabulary for representing it)

15:59:00 <gavinc> But that doesn't freeze the NAME

Gavin Carothers: But that doesn't freeze the NAME

15:59:01 <pchampin> yes, I'm suggesting that it is low

Pierre-Antoine Champin: yes, I'm suggesting that it is low

15:59:18 <gavinc> I think that's really all we need?

Gavin Carothers: I think that's really all we need?

15:59:29 <pchampin> cygri: provenance is a complex issue

Richard Cyganiak: provenance is a complex issue [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ]

15:59:46 <pchampin> cygri:  ppl have been working for quite a while on an implicit named graph model

Richard Cyganiak: ppl have been working for quite a while on an implicit multi-graph model [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ]

16:00:00 <AndyS> Name is the serialization if you want to use with a store with change-of-slot value.  Or use  store that uses naming how you want.

Andy Seaborne: Name is the serialization if you want to use with a store with change-of-slot value. Or use store that uses naming how you want.

16:00:05 <pchampin> cygri: we need to provide an explicit model for them (charter of the groupe)

Richard Cyganiak: we need to provide an explicit model for them (charter of the groupe) [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ]

16:00:09 <pchampin> s/named graph/multi-graph/
16:00:20 <FabGandon> q+ there are two kinds of vocabularies.

Fabien Gandon: q+ there are two kinds of vocabularies.

16:00:25 <pchampin> cygri: but we don't need to enter into detail provenance use cases

Richard Cyganiak: but we don't need to enter into detail provenance use cases [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ]

16:00:28 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

16:00:54 <cygri> MacTed: i see a lack of coherent account of containers and contained structures

Ted Thibodeau: i see a lack of coherent account of containers and contained structures

16:01:09 <cygri> ... in the SQL world, there's a concept of a database

... in the SQL world, there's a concept of a database

16:01:13 <FabGandon> q+ to say there are two kinds of vocabularies.

Fabien Gandon: q+ to say there are two kinds of vocabularies.

16:01:17 <cygri> .. that's somewhat equivalent to RDF store

.. that's somewhat equivalent to RDF store

16:01:29 <cygri> ... a database contains catalogs, which contains schemas, which contains tables

... a database contains catalogs, which contains schemas, which contains tables

16:01:41 <cygri> ... RDF stores contain graphs, which are somewhat equivalent to catalogs

... RDF stores contain graphs, which are somewhat equivalent to catalogs

16:01:49 <cygri> ... (or that's how people use them)

... (or that's how people use them)

16:02:11 <cygri> ... the term graph here is horribly overused

... the term graph here is horribly overused

16:02:27 <cygri> ... it can mean catalog, snapshot, etc etc

... it can mean catalog, snapshot, etc etc

16:02:30 <gavinc> Also amusing issue with Turtle in HTML: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/tip/rdf-turtle/index.html is a set of RDF Graphs, Dataset? ;)

Gavin Carothers: Also amusing issue with Turtle in HTML: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/tip/rdf-turtle/index.html is a set of RDF Graphs, Dataset? ;)

16:02:37 <cygri> ... we need more specific terms for more specific things

... we need more specific terms for more specific things

16:02:59 <cygri> ... without more specific terms, provenance cannot succeed

... without more specific terms, provenance cannot succeed

16:03:04 <cygri> cygri: kinda +1 to MacTed

Richard Cyganiak: kinda +1 to MacTed

16:03:09 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

16:03:09 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

16:03:16 <Guus> +1 to MacTed

Guus Schreiber: +1 to MacTed

16:03:17 <MacTed> ack

Ted Thibodeau: ack

16:03:27 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

16:03:30 <MacTed> ack me

Ted Thibodeau: ack me

16:03:34 <cygri> gavinc: i had multiple bits of turtle in one html file. what should i call these things?

Gavin Carothers: i had multiple bits of turtle in one html file. what should i call these things?

16:03:40 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

16:03:40 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

16:03:43 <MacTed> q-

Ted Thibodeau: q-

16:03:44 <cygri> davidwood: how about dataset?

David Wood: how about dataset?

16:03:56 <cygri> gavinc: well but that's a SPARQL term

Gavin Carothers: well but that's a SPARQL term

16:04:24 <cygri> FabGandon: for me there are two kinds of vocabularies, domain dependent and domain independent

Fabien Gandon: for me there are two kinds of vocabularies, domain dependent and domain independent

16:04:29 <Guus> ack FabGandon

Guus Schreiber: ack FabGandon

16:04:30 <Zakim> FabGandon, you wanted to say there are two kinds of vocabularies.

Zakim IRC Bot: FabGandon, you wanted to say there are two kinds of vocabularies.

16:04:54 <cygri> ... for the provenance WG, something like attaching the date to a graph should be defined not by the RDF WG, but by the prov WG

... for the provenance WG, something like attaching the date to a graph should be defined not by the RDF WG, but by the prov WG

16:04:57 <AndyS> an RDF dataset is {G,(URIi, Gi)}  -- Gavinc seems to want {Gi} (set of graphs? set of g-texts?)

Andy Seaborne: an RDF dataset is {G,(URIi, Gi)} -- Gavinc seems to want {Gi} (set of graphs? set of g-texts?)

16:05:10 <MacTed> date of g-text falls into the "metadata" about that g-text ... but g-text needs that name in order to have such metadata...

Ted Thibodeau: date of g-text falls into the "metadata" about that g-text ... but g-text needs that name in order to have such metadata...

16:05:18 <gavinc> Yeah, how do those graphs in the Turtle HTML get named?

Gavin Carothers: Yeah, how do those graphs in the Turtle HTML get named?

16:05:28 <cygri> ... but stating that something is a g-text should be done by the RDF WG

... but stating that something is a g-text should be done by the RDF WG

16:05:29 <sandro> +1 we should be doing the vocab for talking about RDF (eg the replacement for RDF reification)

Sandro Hawke: +1 we should be doing the vocab for talking about RDF (eg the replacement for RDF reification)

16:06:22 <cygri> gavinc: my problem was that i have a single HTML document that contains multiple ... g-texts? g-snaps? that are not particularly named ...

Gavin Carothers: my problem was that i have a single HTML document that contains multiple ... g-texts? g-snaps? that are not particularly named ...

16:06:23 <sandro> they get named via HTML id's, I think.

Sandro Hawke: they get named via HTML id's, I think.

16:06:36 <cygri> ... so it's multiple graphs in one document

... so it's multiple graphs in one document

16:06:50 <cygri> AndyS: there are other collections of RDF graphs that are not RDF datasets

Andy Seaborne: there are other collections of RDF graphs that are not RDF datasets

16:07:06 <cygri> gavinc: yes and we need more specific terms

Gavin Carothers: yes and we need more specific terms

16:07:20 <cygri> sandro: this should say SPARQL dataset, not RDF dataset

Sandro Hawke: this should say SPARQL dataset, not RDF dataset

16:07:28 <cygri> AndyS: SPARQL term is RDF dataset

Andy Seaborne: SPARQL term is RDF dataset

16:07:52 <LeeF> I would object to redefining the term "RDF dataset"

Lee Feigenbaum: I would object to redefining the term "RDF dataset"

16:09:11 <cygri> sandro: dataset is such a good term, it's a shame to use it for such a peculiar thing as a SPARQL dataset

Sandro Hawke: dataset is such a good term, it's a shame to use it for such a peculiar thing as a SPARQL dataset

16:09:23 <pchampin> graphset ?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: graphset ?

16:10:12 <sandro> sandro: so maybe the turtle texts each get their html ID, forming named graphs in the dataset, and the RDF or un-id'd turtle goes into the default graph.

Sandro Hawke: so maybe the turtle texts each get their html ID, forming named graphs in the dataset, and the RDF or un-id'd turtle goes into the default graph. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:10:22 <cygri> guus: i think we made some progress here. is it useful to involve the provenance wg?

Guus Schreiber: i think we made some progress here. is it useful to involve the provenance wg?

16:10:31 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

16:10:31 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

16:10:40 <cygri> ... my feeling is we should still make up our minds on terminology

... my feeling is we should still make up our minds on terminology

16:10:43 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

16:10:51 <cygri> sandro: i think some sort of liaison would be helpful

Sandro Hawke: i think some sort of liaison would be helpful

16:10:59 <cygri> ... to get their use cases clear

... to get their use cases clear

16:11:11 <cygri> ... maybe a joint TF

... maybe a joint TF

16:11:31 <cygri> ... or communicate via documents. they have a primary use case written up on their wiki

... or communicate via documents. they have a primary use case written up on their wiki

16:11:42 <cygri> MacTed: i think some cross-pollination is necessary

Ted Thibodeau: i think some cross-pollination is necessary

16:12:15 <cygri> ... many WGs look at small-case stuff without realizing that they're looking at a small part

... many WGs look at small-case stuff without realizing that they're looking at a small part

16:12:23 <cygri> ... that's the root of many problems

... that's the root of many problems

16:12:43 <AndyS> From the XG: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Use_Cases

Andy Seaborne: From the XG: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Use_Cases

16:12:52 <Guus> oroisal for joint RDF-Prov TF; who are volunteers to join?

Guus Schreiber: proposal for joint RDF-Prov TF; who are volunteers to join?

16:13:13 <Guus> s/oroisal/proposal
16:13:50 <cygri> ... (discussion on philosophy of changing terms etc)

... (discussion on philosophy of changing terms etc)

16:14:54 <cygri> guus: we're out of time. any volunteers for a joint TF with prov group?

Guus Schreiber: we're out of time. any volunteers for a joint call with prov group?

16:14:58 <sandro> I'll join such a call

Sandro Hawke: I'll join such a call

16:15:05 <cygri> MacTed: i'd join

Ted Thibodeau: i'd join

16:15:11 <cygri> s/TF/call/
16:15:24 <cygri> guus: i can organize such a call. not likely to happen before august

Guus Schreiber: i can organize such a call. not likely to happen before august

16:15:27 <gavinc> ... I'll join... wince

Gavin Carothers: ... I'll join... wince

16:15:31 <cygri> cygri: i'd join too

Richard Cyganiak: i'd join too

16:15:31 <Souri> I'd like to join also

Souripriya Das: I'd like to join also

16:15:50 <AZ> I think I'd join too

Antoine Zimmermann: I think I'd join too

16:16:03 <pchampin> depending on the time slot, I'll try to join as well

Pierre-Antoine Champin: depending on the time slot, I'll try to join as well

16:16:16 <cygri> ACTION: guus to send email to provenance WG chairs about a joint call

ACTION: guus to send email to provenance WG chairs about a joint call

16:16:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-70 - Send email to provenance WG chairs about a joint call [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-07-27].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-70 - Send email to provenance WG chairs about a joint call [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-07-27].

16:16:36 <sandro> action: guus to email team-prov-chairs@w3.org about joint task force, or something.   maybe include RDFa and SPARQL

ACTION: guus to email team-prov-chairs@w3.org about joint task force, or something. maybe include RDFa and SPARQL

16:16:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-71 - Email team-prov-chairs@w3.org about joint task force, or something.   maybe include RDFa and SPARQL [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-07-27].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-71 - Email team-prov-chairs@w3.org about joint task force, or something. maybe include RDFa and SPARQL [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-07-27].

16:16:48 <cygri> MacTed: might want to involve more than these groups. also SPARQL, rdb2rdf, rdfa ...

Ted Thibodeau: might want to involve more than these groups. also SPARQL, rdb2rdf, rdfa ...

16:16:51 <gavinc> ... how owl:imports acts ... :\

Gavin Carothers: ... how owl:imports acts ... :\

16:17:30 <Zakim> -Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri

16:17:30 <cygri> guus: adjourned

Guus Schreiber: adjourned

16:20:22 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

16:20:24 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.707.861.aaaa, gavinc, yvesr, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, MacTed, Guus, EricP, +1.540.898.aacc, +539149aadd, davidwood, Sandro, cygri, +1.617.553.aaee, LeeF, SteveH,

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +1.707.861.aaaa, gavinc, yvesr, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, MacTed, Guus, EricP, +1.540.898.aacc, +539149aadd, davidwood, Sandro, cygri, +1.617.553.aaee, LeeF, SteveH,

16:20:26 <Zakim> ... mischat, mbrunati, FabGandon, +1.404.978.aaff, tomayac, NickH, AZ, pchampin, +1.603.897.aagg, Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: ... mischat, mbrunati, FabGandon, +1.404.978.aaff, tomayac, NickH, AZ, pchampin, +1.603.897.aagg, Souri

16:23:40 <cygri> RRSAgent, make logs public

RRSAgent, make logs public



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