WebMob Teleconf

<stakagi> hi i am satoru

<scribe> ScribeNick: dom

Schuki: light agenda today

Update on Installable Web Apps Task Force

Schuki: update from Marcos' task force

<schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/installable-webapps

Marcos: I've been traveling, so we've slowed down a bit
... lots of feedback on the document we've built on public-webapps
... I'll be filing more bugs based on this
... we would like to get a couple more people involved to help
... still plenty of work to do, but it's coming along

Schuki: can you an update on the manifest file more specifically?

marcos: we've been trying to define what the manifest file should be
... we've looked at the what current Web apps do
... and based on this, we've defined what would need to be in a manifest
... or even if a manifest is needed at all given all that's already defined
... we have now filed a transition request to publish that document as FPWD
... the first version is probably richer than what we want in the end for IPR reasons
... based on my discussions with the Patent and Standards Interest Group

<marcosc> http://w3c.github.io/manifest/releases/FPWD.html

marcos: the FPWD should be published shortly
... work is continuing on the document, based on use cases
... we've also made a call out to developers to get feedback on some of the aspects of the manifest

<schuki> https://gist.github.com/marcoscaceres/7783977

marcos: with plenty of retweets

<marcosc> https://gist.github.com/marcoscaceres/7783977

<bryan> natasha, one topic we could add is mobile-effective UI features/design for privacy preferences management - we can add some ideas to the manifest discussion on that

marcos: we got a very good range of feedback
... incl. from non-W3C people

<dka> Anything from the feedback that potentially changes your thinking on the manifest?

schuki: bryan mentions on IRC privacy-features management

marcos: send feedback and ideas on the github repo

<marcosc> bryan: http://w3c-webmob.github.io/installable-webapps/#security-and-privacy

dka: any thing from the feedback that is triggering substantive changes?

marcos: some people quite opposed to the notion of a manifest
... suggestions to avoid inventing new names but instead to re-use the ones defined in HTML
... I had proposed to use the <script> element and got feedback this would break a lot of stuff
... feedback on no need for an inline manifest declaration
... great feedback in general

dka: there was a proposal that Alex Russel had made on how to incorporate permissions in manifest

marcos: I'm hoping he'll raise this to our repo once he has a chance

dka: this could come out of a discussion we're planning at an upcoming TAG meeting with Dom

<Zakim> bryan, you wanted to ask about the manifest privacy info

bryan: to wrap that up, related to what DKA was talking about,
... I haven't seen yet the details of how the capabilities and intents of applications will be disclosed in the manifest
... similar to what was done in widgets or in WAC
... would be interesting to look more into that

marcos: it would be useful for this group to report on what has been done in previous projects, what academic research has shown in this field

<marcosc> bryan: https://github.com/w3c-webmob/installable-webapps/issues/12

marcos: this would inform the work on permissioning

bryan: would be good to document what people have been using and their experience with that

<marcosc> bryan: https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/75

<marcosc> https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/75#issuecomment-29461650

marcos: ben francis has made a bunch of research on existing runtimes

<bryan> thanks, obviously a lot to catch up on - we'll review and comment

marcos: another mozilla's person indicated possible interest in looking into this
... which matches one of the task forces of this group
... bryan, you'd be most welcome to help document what's been done in this space

New Net Info work

<schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/netinfo

Schuki: Marcos started this new github repo looking at use cases and requirements for the network info API
... that API has been discussed in a number of groups
... Marcos and others are documenting the use cases that native apps use for that kind of API
... e.g. dropbox making it optional to sync on cellular data
... or big downloads only on wifi
... We understand the limitation of network API assuming that network type being a good characterization of network quality
... We have reasonable info on iOS
... would be useful to get similar data on Android and Windows Phone

bryan: there was a discussion a while back in DAP about taking a different approach
... which I intend to bring back in this thread
... an app could indicate what it's OK with: I'm OK with delayed transaction to benefit from newly available bearers
... another approach: if you have a shared connection among several apps with aggregate transport
... this might address a number of the things that app developers might need
... somewhat different approach: not obtaining info, but expressing intent
... I'll try to summarize it for the current discussion

schuki: hopefully this can be integrated in the current use cases and requirements of the doc

marcos: ideally, you would find existing examples of apps taking this approach
... at the bare minimum, Web apps should be able to catch up with native

<bryan> as a second note, the approach Marcos is taking re focusing what techniques are actually using today, is very good

marcos: examples that support use cases on some platform are important

<bryan> the use cases / approaches I am speaking of are not necessarily common today, just new ideas that could help optimize network use

Offline Task Force

<Zakim> bryan, you wanted to menion I've been watching the discussion, and have not chimed in yet with the different approach discussed on the DAP list a while back, i.e. letting the app

<schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/offline/tree/gh-pages

Schuki: I have uploaded a light structured document on the offline topic
... In its current state, there is a little of scope creep going on here
... lots of things could be covered
... this is first and foremost a way to get people to start contributing

<schuki> http://w3c-webmob.github.io/offline/

schuki: help from everywhere would be welcome
... esp. pull requests

<schuki> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7sRMg0f5Hk

schuki: you can also raise issues to help orient the document
... I want to add stuff from Jake Archibald's recent talk on offline
... the document covers current situation, existing gaps, and upcoming solutions
... some bits about privacy and security
... any question on this?

marcos: I'm worried that we would duplicate what has been done in the ServiceWorker explainer
... I'm wondering if we should take the reference implementation from Mozilla

<bryan> marcos, are you talking about https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/blob/master/explainer.md ?

marcos: and focus this document around experience gathered in implementing various use cases as already identified
... as a way to gather feedback on using the API

schuki: great idea, in light of this upcoming release from Mozilla
... so we would refer back to the explainer doc

<marcosc> https://tbpl.mozilla.org/?tree=Try&rev=db542e5dc66b

schuki: and evolve this toward building experience feedback

<bryan> Re the explainer "handle all resource requests for an application" does not actually mean that all server functions are emulatable, offline, using service workers.

<bryan> Service workers appears to me to be an interesting but as-yet-unverified solution to all offline use cases.

marcos: on the right hand side https://tbpl.mozilla.org/?tree=Try&rev=db542e5dc66b you can find various build labels
... these are service worker builds in Firefox nightly
... I haven't managed to get them to work yet, but I'll try again
... download the build by clicking on the "B" matching your platform
... and then click on move to build dir

bryan: android 2.2 means 2.2+?

marcos: not sure, given there is also a 4.2 build

<marcosc> Nikhil Marathe

marcos: the guy working on this is happy to work with us and to get feedback

<bryan> 4.2 for x86 not arm

marcos: he's giving a talk today on this

<bryan> but we'll check it out - when is the FFOS patch coming out?

Permissions Task Force

<schuki> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Work#TASK_FORCE:_Permissions

Schuki: there are a number of discussions on this topic across task forces
... it came up in installable, in offline

<schuki> dom: my current plan is to document the issues that have been discussed so far

<schuki> ... then highlight the inconsistencies so far

<schuki> ... and then to enlist the TAG's help in driving the topic in the task force

<bryan> permissions is probably related to what I mentioned earlier, the accepted permissions is something the UI will enable, and needs to be conveyed to the user in some effective way, with either granular or total opt-in/out

<schuki> ... dka has invited me to talk in the TAG meeting

<schuki> dom: we'll work out together the next best steps

schuki: at TPAC, one of the best messages out of the TAG was: "we're here to help you, come and talk to us"
... and we want to do this with permissions topic
... I expect Dom will report back after the TAG meeting
... which I guess means the task force won't really start before that meeting

AOB

schuki: one of our other task forces is on scrolling

<schuki> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Work#TASK_FORCE:_Scrolling

schuki: there has been lots of talk on twitter regarding scrolling
... I'll keep linking stuff as I find them

<schuki> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Meetings

schuki: Last piece of AOB is about meetings
... we've decided to move to a monthly meeting rhythm instead of fortnightly
... given that work seems to be running smoothly on github
... we would like to use teleconference calls for getting updates on the task forces
... for which a monthly meeting seems to be sufficient
... aside of that, marcos and I are always hanging out on IRC
... Teleconferences: some people love them, others hate them
... if you feel very strongly that this change isn't quite right, let us know
... we're alternating between 8am and 3pm UTC to accommodate Asian vs US participants
... again, we welcome feedback on this
... these teleconferences will be on task force updates
... but task forces should feel free to set up their own teleconferences if they feel it's useful
... We now have an icalendar feed for our teleconferences to import them in your agenda

<bryan> have a great holiday all!

schuki: This is our last teleconference this year: happy new year to all