07:49:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webmob
07:49:21 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/11-webmob-irc
07:49:26 <schuki> invite zakim
07:49:31 <schuki> oops!
07:49:31 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webmob
07:50:12 <dom> dom has joined #webmob
07:50:26 <schuki> ok well there is going to be some wonderful christmas music in the background for this call
07:50:33 <schuki> care of starbucks in richmond, surrey
07:52:21 <schuki> dom: i am here and on time!
07:52:23 <schuki> i am also on the line
07:52:30 <dom> hi schuki
07:52:41 <schuki> hey! :D
07:55:16 <schuki> dom: do I need to tell Zakim about the conf?
07:56:14 <dom> Zakim, this will be WEBMOB
07:56:14 <Zakim> ok, dom; I see MWI_WBMB()3:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
07:56:20 <dom> Zakim, who's on the call?
07:56:20 <Zakim> MWI_WBMB()3:00AM has not yet started, dom
07:56:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see dom, Zakim, RRSAgent, kotakagi, stakagi, marcosc, ernesto, anssik, sangwhan, schuki, trackbot, paul___irish
07:56:46 <schuki> w00t!
07:56:49 <bryan> bryan has joined #webmob
07:59:22 <stakagi> hi i am satoru
07:59:43 <marcosc> Zakim, what's the passcode?
07:59:43 <Zakim> the conference code is 932662 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), marcosc
07:59:45 <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
08:00:42 <dom> Zakim, who's on the call?
08:00:42 <Zakim> MWI_WBMB()3:00AM has not yet started, dom
08:00:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see bryan, dom, Zakim, RRSAgent, kotakagi, stakagi, marcosc, ernesto, anssik, sangwhan, schuki, trackbot, paul___irish
08:00:57 <dom> Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
08:01:06 <schuki> Present+ Natasha Rooney
08:01:12 <marcosc> present+ Marcos
08:01:33 <dka> dka has joined #webmob
08:02:39 <dom> Present+ DKA
08:02:44 <dka> zakim, who is here?
08:02:44 <Zakim> MWI_WBMB()3:00AM has not yet started, dka
08:02:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see dka, bryan, dom, Zakim, RRSAgent, kotakagi, stakagi, marcosc, ernesto, anssik, sangwhan, schuki, trackbot, paul___irish
08:02:53 <dka> zakim, who is making noise?
08:02:53 <Zakim> sorry, dka, I don't know what conference this is
08:03:07 <dom> Present+ stakagi
08:03:11 <dka> trackbot this is webmob
08:03:11 <trackbot> Sorry, dka, I don't understand 'trackbot this is webmob'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
08:03:17 <dom> Zakim, this is Webmob
08:03:18 <Zakim> ok, dom; that matches MWI_WBMB()3:00AM
08:03:24 <dom> Zakim, who's on the call?
08:03:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see schuki, Bryan_Sullivan, [IPcaller], Dom, dka, ??P2
08:03:38 <kotakagi> present+ kotakagi
08:03:45 <stakagi> zakim, [IPcoller] is me
08:03:45 <Zakim> sorry, stakagi, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcoller]'
08:04:00 <stakagi> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
08:04:00 <Zakim> +stakagi; got it
08:04:06 <dom> Zakim, ??P2 is kotakagi
08:04:06 <Zakim> +kotakagi; got it
08:04:26 <Zakim> +??P6
08:04:46 <kotakagi> P2 is not kotakagi
08:05:14 <ernesto> present
08:05:25 <ernesto> present+ ernesto
08:06:31 <dom> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-mobile/2013Dec/0037.html
08:06:36 <dom> ScribeNick: dom
08:06:41 <dom> Schuki: light agenda today
08:07:16 <dom> Topic: Update on Installable Web Apps Task Force
08:07:40 <dom> Schuki: update from Marcos' task force
08:07:51 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/installable-webapps
08:07:59 <dom> Marcos: I've been traveling, so we've slowed down a bit
08:08:12 <dom> ... lots of feedback on the document we've built on public-webapps
08:08:20 <dom> ... I'll be filing more bugs based on this
08:08:30 <dom> ... we would like to get a couple more people involved to help
08:08:38 <dom> ... still plenty of work to do, but it's coming a long
08:08:41 <dom> s/a long/along/
08:09:05 <dom> Schuki: can you an update on the manifest file more specifically?
08:09:22 <dom> marcos: we've been trying to define what the manifest file should be
08:09:38 <dom> ... we've looked at the what current Web apps do
08:09:59 <dom> ... and based on this, we've defined what would need to be in a manifest
08:10:15 <dom> ... or even if a manifest is needed at all given all that's already defined
08:10:26 <dom> ... we have now filed a transition request to publish that document as FPWD
08:10:48 <dom> ... the first version is probably richer than what we want in the end for IPR reasons
08:11:00 <dom> ... based on my discussions with the Patent and Standards Interest Group
08:11:12 <marcosc> http://w3c.github.io/manifest/releases/FPWD.html
08:11:17 <dom> ... the FPWD should be published shortly
08:11:41 <dom> ... work is continuing on the document, based on use cases
08:12:04 <dom> ... we've also made a call out to developers to get feedback on some of the aspects of the manifest
08:12:06 <schuki> https://gist.github.com/marcoscaceres/7783977
08:12:15 <dom> ... with plenty of retweets
08:12:18 <marcosc> https://gist.github.com/marcoscaceres/7783977
08:12:19 <bryan> natasha, one topic we could add is mobile-effective UI features/design for privacy preferences management - we can add some ideas to the manifest discussion on that
08:12:36 <dom> ... we got a very good range of feedback
08:13:00 <dom> ... incl. from non-W3C people
08:13:37 <dka> Anything from the feedback that potentially changes your thinking on the manifest?
08:13:44 <dom> schuki: bryan mentions on IRC privacy-features management
08:14:01 <dom> marcos: send feedback and ideas on the github repo
08:14:17 <marcosc> bryan: http://w3c-webmob.github.io/installable-webapps/#security-and-privacy
08:14:46 <dom> q+ dka
08:15:24 <dom> dka: any thing from the feedback that is triggering substantive changes?
08:15:33 <dom> marcos: some people quite opposed to the notion of a manifest
08:15:50 <dom> ... suggestions to avoid inventing new names but instead to re-use the ones defined in HTML
08:16:12 <dom> ... I had proposed to use the <script> element and got feedback this would break a lot of stuff
08:16:39 <dom> ... feedback on no need for an inline manifest declaration
08:17:03 <schuki> ack dka
08:17:14 <dom> ... great feedback in general
08:17:37 <dom> dka: there was a proposal that Alex Russel had made on how to incorporate permissions in manifest
08:18:01 <dom> marcos: I'm hoping he'll raise this to our repo once he has a chance
08:18:13 <bryan> q+ about the manifest privacy info
08:18:28 <bryan> q+ to ask about the manifest privacy info
08:18:28 <dom> dka: this could come out of a discussion we're planning at an upcoming TAG meeting with Dom
08:18:31 <dka> q-
08:18:41 <dom> ack bryan
08:18:41 <Zakim> bryan, you wanted to ask about the manifest privacy info
08:18:56 <dom> bryan: to wrap that up, related to what DKA was talking about,
08:19:17 <dom> ... I haven't seen yet the details of how the capabilities and intents of applications will be disclosed in the manifest
08:19:19 <dom> ... similar to what was done in widgets or in WAC
08:19:31 <dom> ... would be interesting to look more into that
08:20:16 <dom> marcos: it would be useful for this group to report on what has been done in previous projects, what academic research has shown in this field
08:20:33 <marcosc> bryan: https://github.com/w3c-webmob/installable-webapps/issues/12
08:20:40 <dom> ... this would inform the work on permissioning
08:21:36 <schuki> q?
08:21:38 <dom> bryan: would be good to document what people have been using and their experience with that
08:21:54 <marcosc> bryan: https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/75
08:22:32 <marcosc> https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/75#issuecomment-29461650
08:22:51 <dom> marcos: ben francis has made a bunch of research on existing runtimes
08:23:21 <bryan> thanks, obviously a lot to catch up on - we'll review and comment
08:23:23 <dom> ... another mozilla's person indicated possible interest in looking into this
08:23:34 <dom> ... which matches one of the task forces of this group
08:23:53 <schuki> q?
08:23:54 <dom> ... bryan, you'd be most welcome to help document what's been done in this space
08:24:26 <dom> Topic: New Net Info work
08:24:36 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/netinfo
08:24:57 <dom> Schuki: Marcos started this new github repo looking at use cases and requirements for the network info API
08:25:24 <dom> ... that API has been discussed in a number of groups
08:25:48 <dom> ... Marcos and others are documenting the use cases that native apps use for that kind of API
08:26:03 <dom> ... e.g. dropbox making it optional to sync on cellular data
08:26:14 <dom> ... or big downloads only on wifi
08:26:55 <dom> ... We understand the limitation of network API assuming that network type being a good characterization of network quality
08:27:17 <dom> ... We have reasonable info on iOS
08:27:22 <dom> ... would be useful to get similar data on Android and Windows Phone
08:28:14 <bryan> q+ to menion I've been watching the discussion, and have not chimed in yet with the different approach discussed on the DAP list a while back, i.e. letting the app indicate what they are OK with in XHR, e.g. delay or aggregated request handling
08:28:42 <dom> bryan: there was a discussion a while back in DAP about taking a different approach
08:28:51 <dom> ... which I intend to bring back in this thread
08:29:28 <dom> ... an app could indicate what it's OK with: I'm OK with delayed transaction to benefit from newly available bearers
08:29:58 <dom> ... another approach: if you have a shared connection among several apps with aggregate transport
08:30:10 <dom> ... this might address a number of the things that app developers might need
08:30:23 <dom> ... somewhat different approach: not obtaining info, but expressing intent
08:30:34 <dom> ... I'll try to summarize it for the current discussion
08:31:01 <dom> schuki: hopefully this can be integrated in the current use cases and requirements of the doc
08:31:24 <dom> marcos: ideally, you would find existing examples of apps taking this approach
08:31:45 <dom> ... at the bare minimum, Web apps should be able to catch up with native
08:32:03 <bryan> as a second note, the approach Marcos is taking re focusing what techniques are actually using today, is very good
08:32:12 <dom> ... examples that support use cases on some platform are important
08:32:37 <bryan> the use cases / approaches I am speaking of are not necessarily common today, just new ideas that could help optimize network use
08:32:40 <dom> Topic: Offline Task Force
08:32:46 <schuki> q?
08:32:53 <schuki> ack bryan
08:32:53 <Zakim> bryan, you wanted to menion I've been watching the discussion, and have not chimed in yet with the different approach discussed on the DAP list a while back, i.e. letting the app
08:32:56 <Zakim> ... indicate what they are OK with in XHR, e.g. delay or aggregated request handling
08:33:38 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/offline/tree/gh-pages
08:33:55 <dom> Schuki: I have uploaded a light structured document on the offline topic
08:34:13 <dom> ... In its current state, there is a little of scope creep going on here
08:34:13 <dom> ... lots of things could be covered
08:34:29 <dom> ... this is first and foremost a way to get people to start contributing
08:34:31 <schuki> http://w3c-webmob.github.io/offline/
08:35:05 <dom> schuki: help from everywhere would be welcome
08:35:17 <dom> ... esp. pull requests
08:35:21 <schuki> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7sRMg0f5Hk
08:35:23 <dom> ... you can also raise issues to help orient the document
08:35:38 <dom> ... I want to add stuff from Jake Archibald's recent talk on offline
08:36:14 <dom> ... the document covers current situation, existing gaps, and upcoming solutions
08:36:19 <dom> ... some bits about privacy and security
08:36:47 <dom> ... any question on this?
08:37:11 <dom> marcos: I'm worried that we would duplicate what has been done in the ServiceWorker explainer
08:37:32 <dom> ... I'm wondering if we should take the reference implementation from Mozilla
08:38:01 <bryan> marcos, are you talking about https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/blob/master/explainer.md ?
08:38:04 <dom> ... and focus this document around experience gathered in implementing various use cases as already identified
08:38:30 <dom> ... as a way to gather feedback on using the API
08:38:57 <dom> schuki: great idea, in light of this upcoming release from Mozilla
08:39:15 <dom> ... so we would refer back to the explainer doc
08:39:16 <marcosc> https://tbpl.mozilla.org/?tree=Try&rev=db542e5dc66b
08:39:27 <dom> ... and evolve this toward building experience feedback
08:39:44 <bryan> Re the explainer "handle all resource requests for an application" does not actually mean that all server functions are emulatable, offline, using service workers.
08:40:13 <bryan> Service workers appears to me to be an interesting but as-yet-unverified solution to all offline use cases.
08:40:27 <dom> marcos: on the right hand side https://tbpl.mozilla.org/?tree=Try&rev=db542e5dc66b you can find various build labels
08:40:46 <dom> ... these are service worker builds in Firefox nightly
08:41:07 <dom> ... I haven't managed to get them to work yet, but I'll try again
08:41:34 <dom> ... download the build by clicking on the "B" matching your platform
08:41:42 <dom> ... and then click on move to build dir
08:41:52 <dom> bryan: android 2.2 means 2.2+?
08:42:06 <dom> marcos: not sure, given there is also a 4.2 build
08:42:09 <marcosc> Nikhil Marathe
08:42:27 <dom> ... the guy working on this is happy to work with us and to get feedback
08:42:33 <bryan> 4.2 for x86 not arm
08:42:45 <dom> ... he's giving a talk today on this
08:43:17 <bryan> but we'll check it out - when is the FFOS patch coming out?
08:43:36 <schuki> q?
08:43:52 <dom> Topic: Permissions Task Force
08:44:05 <schuki> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Work#TASK_FORCE:_Permissions
08:44:21 <dom> Schuki: there are a number of discussions on this topic across task forces
08:44:40 <dom> ... it came up in installable, in offline
08:45:11 <schuki> dom: my current plan is to document the issues that have been discussed so far
08:45:17 <schuki> ... then highlight the inconsistencies so far
08:45:32 <schuki> ... and then to enlist the TAG's help in driving the topic in the task force
08:45:41 <bryan> permissions is probably related to what I mentioned earlier, the accepted permissions is something the UI will enable, and needs to be conveyed to the user in some effective way, with either granular or total opt-in/out
08:45:43 <schuki> ... dka has invited me to talk in the TAG meeting
08:46:01 <schuki> dom: we'll work out together the next best steps
08:46:38 <Zakim> -kotakagi
08:46:50 <dom> schuki: at TPAC, one of the best messages out of the TAG was: "we're here to help you, come and talk to us"
08:46:58 <dom> ... and we want to do this with permissions topic
08:47:22 <dom> ... I expect Dom will report back after the TAG meeting
08:47:39 <dom> ... which I guess means the task force won't really start before that meeting
08:48:31 <dom> Topic: AOB
08:48:57 <dom> schuki: one of our other task forces is on scrolling
08:49:02 <schuki> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Work#TASK_FORCE:_Scrolling
08:49:17 <dom> ... there has been lots of talk on twitter regarding scrolling
08:49:43 <dom> ... I'll keep linking stuff as I find them
08:49:57 <Zakim> -stakagi
08:50:06 <schuki> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Meetings
08:50:07 <dom> ... Last piece of AOB is about meetings
08:50:49 <dom> ... we've decided to move to a monthly meeting rhythm instead of fortnightly
08:50:58 <dom> ... given that work seems to be running smoothly on github
08:51:17 <dom> ... we would like to use teleconference calls for getting updates on the task forces
08:51:17 <dom> ... for which a monthly meeting seems to be sufficient
08:51:28 <dom> ... aside of that, marcos and I are always hanging out on IRC
08:51:41 <dom> ... Teleconferences: some people love them, others hate them
08:51:55 <dom> ... if you feel very strongly that this change isn't quite right, let us know
08:52:20 <dom> ... we're alternating between 8am and 3pm UTC to accommodate Asian vs US participants
08:52:29 <dom> ... again, we welcome feedback on this
08:52:51 <dom> ... these teleconferences will be on task force updates
08:53:04 <dom> ... but task forces should feel free to set up their own teleconferences if they feel it's useful
08:53:21 <dom> ... We now have an icalendar feed for our teleconferences to import them in your agenda
08:53:49 <bryan> have a great holiday all!
08:54:03 <dom> ... This is our last teleconference this year: happy new year to all
08:54:21 <Zakim> -Bryan_Sullivan
08:54:22 <Zakim> -Dom
08:54:24 <Zakim> -schuki
08:54:26 <Zakim> -??P6
08:54:27 <Zakim> MWI_WBMB()3:00AM has ended
08:54:27 <Zakim> Attendees were schuki, Bryan_Sullivan, Dom, dka, stakagi, kotakagi
08:54:28 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:54:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/11-webmob-minutes.html dom
08:54:34 <dom> RRSAgent, make log public
08:54:35 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:54:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/11-webmob-minutes.html dom
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