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<karen_> Introductions: Ivan Herman, W3C is moderating
<scribe> ScribeNick: fantasai
Ivan: This is not just about
electronic books, although we are starting with that
... The background of all this is that sometime last
wintertime, W3C started a number of what we call 'Headlight"
projects, looking at various areas of industry or other
activities to see whether there are areas where W3C sees
potential for cooperation
<karen_> Markus Gylling, ePub overview
<karen_> Thierry Michel, W3C
Ivan: The digital publishing came
out of this experience
... We had a feeling that there's an area here that we would
like to address somehow
... B/c headlight project, it's about the future
<karen_> Ivan: Unsure if this will become a separate activity
<karen_> ...at W3C
Ivan: It's only future that will
tell whether this will become an activity within W3C, or
whether we decide that there is nothing to do here
... One thing that we hit very early on, is that digital
publishing is very vague term
... Want to define the focus to make things more concrete
... We came up with an arbitrary focus areas
... Production workflow, journals + magazines, electronic
books, scientific publishing, and metadata
... Production workflow, not even sure the name is really good,
but is about everything that happens in the backend
... At some point in time, the author produces a manuscript,
mostly in word
... but other formats
... That was what publishers told me they did
... At the end of the process, they produce a book in various
formats
... There is a complicated and specialized workflow there, with
tools
... Today it's dominated by XML pipelines
... This is really changing area, where ppl want to look at
other things
... effect of HTML5 is there as well
... whole area there
... Electronic books is another area
... Various types of books, not just novels, although today
this is what dominates the ebook market
... You can have childrens books, interactive books, and
evencomplex multimedia publications
... Very popular today. People reading books on many devices,
on transit, etc.
... Huge discussions on business models and DRM
... Journals and magazines have similarties to electornic
books, but has differences
... Very dynamic -- published frequently, rapidly
... Social web becoming more improtant to this
... The business model is different than for electronic
books
... There is another contact with another headlight there,
advertising
... And searching is important, esp. for journals
... Scientific publication is another area
... Lots of commonalities
... What it means is changing
... Previously just paper
... Now data, algorithms, etc.
... Also has a social aspect, because of peer review etc.
... Another area, whether we can handle that or not, I don't
know
... Important role for scientists for specialized tools
... e.g. Google Scholar
... Also part of this publication environment
... Also metadata, needed everywhere, for cataloging and
search
... An electronic book can carry all its metadata in it
... Previously library had to manualy catalog into various
systems
... This area involves both publishers and librarians
... So these are the areas we came up with
... Plan is to organize various workshops in this area
... figure out issues that are utually of interest
... All these users are major users of W3C technology
... WGs can expect feedback from these groups
... One thing I must emphasize here is that W3C doesn't intend
to replace other organizations, industry consortia, that
already exist
... We want to work with them
... E.g. EPUB is done by IDPF, and workshop in NYC is
co-organized with them
... For magazines and journals, there's IPTC
... etc.
<karen_> http://www.w3.org/2012/08/electronic-books/
Ivan: The plan is to have a
workshap on eletronic books
... Current plans are to have a workshop on the workflow area
in 2013
... Electronic books is well-advanced
... Workflows, much more in brainstorming phase
... So no idea where or when, probably somewhere in Europe but
not decided
... If things go well, and feedback goes well, we may attack
other areas in 2014
... This is a new area for all of us
... have to learn a lot
Ivan hands over to Markus Gylling
mgylling: So, we're going to try
to avoid making this whole session presentations, so try to run
quickly
... Ivan mentioned IDPF
... Non-profit trade and standards organization
... approx 400 members from 30+ countries
... Our main target is EPUB format
... which we are developing and promoting as the one or only
open format for digital books available today
... One tagline we use is "Where digital publishing meets the
Open Web"
... The intent of EPUB is not to define something that deviates
from the open web platform, but rather work towards getting
digital publishg towards the sweet spot
... where we use as much of the open web platform as
possible
... EPUB has bene around since 2000
... Organization has developed from developing only format for
interchange, to also providing format for consumption
... started with Adobe, B&N, etc.
... Other industries now supporting EPUB as primary
format
... So, EPUB3 is latest version of the EPUB standard, 3rd
standard
... done exactly 1 year ago
... 3 major goals
... 1st is to update/modernize ourselves
... EPUB 2 was based on subset of XHTML1.1 and CSS2
... EPUB3 uses HTML5 and profile of CSS3
... Other major goals were a11y and i18n
... put a lot of effor tto making sure that EPUB 3 can serve
these
... DAISY Consortium has merged with IDPF to make sure that
books can be accessible
... wrt i18n, included things like vertical writing, important
for zh and ja
... Here is a graph of the layout of an EPUB book
... there's a zip container
... There's content files, SVG, etc.
... Also a lot of overarching metadata
... We have package file that lists global metadata
... order of contetn in reading order
... defined spots for digital signatures, encryption,
etc.
... does not define a DRM format itself, but books can include
one
... We can also do media overlays, using SMIL
... which allows document-wide synchronization of audio and
text
... you can use it for audio books and text
... that's the overview
John?: What do you mean by hooks for DRM?
mgylling: The encryption of XML5
is commonly used by most common implementations of EPUB
[...]
... huge interop issue, because users who purchase from one
system can't use their book in a different system
... many players think we should not do DRM at all, go towards
other solutions
... There's an ongoing discusison in IDPF wrt what to do to
solve this
John: In the video space, the new ISo-MPEG common encryption .. allows multiple DRMs
mgylling: There's multiple solutions. One called UltraViolet
ivan: Let's say a few words wrt workshop itself
?: Where can we get more information on how EPUB fits together?
mgylling: You want an introduction to EPUB?
O'Reilly: What is EPUB 3
mgylling: freely-available intro
to EPUB
... also idpf.org
<glazou> Thierry Michel, W3C
Thierry: Say a few words about
upcoming workshop
... We are currently investigating into digital publishing;
first step will be that workshop
... This workshop will happen in NYC, 11-12 February 2013
... because lots of publishers hosted in that city
... Workshop will be hosted by o"reilly
... In order to ease the venue and attendence, we co-located
with Tools of Change publishign conference (TOC) also organized
by O'Reilly
... also organized in partnership with Book Industry Study Grou
(BISG), maintain standards and best practices for books
... and IDPF
... Goal of this workshop is that currently there's lots of
format, not only EPUB3, but bunch of various formats
... Some are proprietary, some are open, some are proprietary
extensions to open formats
... This really breaks the interoperability and headache for
consumers
... Think there's a place for W3c to help here
... As W3C did for Web, has role here to lead ebook publishing
to full potential
... Great opportunity to bring major players together
... We'll have 3 co-chairs, and will have expertise from BISG,
IDPF/DAISY, W3C
Thierry describes various other attendies
Thierry: Large variety of
potential topics
... roganized them into 3 different areas: production,
presentation, distribution
... within production, first issue is standardization and
relation with current and future W3C standards
<stearns> http://www.w3.org/2012/08/electronic-books/topics.html
Thierry: 2nd topic is about
layout
... today, ebooks is not only publication of novels, but goes
beyond that with publication of more complex layout
... Not only adaptive, but also fixed layout
... next topic will be a11y, fallbacks
... voice control, text-to-speech, media overlay
... device descriptions for processing ebooks on server, media
queries for ex
... color management, widget definitions
... we're seeing proprietary widgets, we'd like to
standardize
... for distribution, as Ivan mentioned, we believe DRM is the
issue
... It brings overburden to consumers
... So there are different types of DRM: open DRM, social DRM,
etc.
... packaging is osmething to discuss
... also related to packaging like in webapps
... Also ISBN numbers, versioning, etc.
... I'll let you have a look at the potential, possible other
topics
... Who should participate? Obviously anyone involved in
ebooks
<stearns> participation URL : http://www.w3.org/2012/08/electronic-books/expected.html
Thierry: To participate as an
individual or organization, you must submit a position
paper
... Show your perspective and your viewpoint, including
concrete examples of your suggestions
... Can expres your interest today, whether plan to submit
paper or show a demo
... Dec 10 is deadline for position papers
<rigo> I wonder if someone from http://www.w3.org/community/odrl/ is here
Thierry: By january 15, we will
send acceptance, registration instructions, etc.
... Registration by Feb 1st, it's free for invited
participants
... If you want to learn more, visit our call for participation
page or mailing list team-electronic-books-chairs@w3.org
r12a: Called out a11y, but not i18n, why?
<stearns> (it's in the "other topics" list)
Thierry: We thought about i18n, but was removed... could be there, it's been removed because we tried to focus on main topics
Ivan: The way we thought is that
we would probably plan for a separate workshop, probably
somewhere in Asia, to really concentrate on that
... A lot of issues are there: i18n, fonts, writing modes,
etc.
... If things happen the way we dream, then there will be a
second workshop
r12a: I would ask then that you
mention i18n and your intentions at this workshop
...
Ivan: We had whole series of
topics we were looking at, had to give some a higher
priority
... Which doesn't mean we will refuse anything not in
those
... We tried to put some priorities on issues, like DRM, that
permeates all the industry, but it's not an exclusive
list
... But we have to shorten the list a bit
?: Comment on versioning -- there's another session at 1:30 wrt change tracking
?: Wrt multiple versions of documents and changes and sharing them
?: Is this within the scope of your workshop?
mgylling: Wrt pub, versioning is
not on the top of the list of problems publishiers want solved
today
... but possibility that it is a topic
... EPUB has a rudimentary but functioning versioning system
today
TV Ramen: Want to connect dots between produciton workflow and a11y
tv: DAISY and IDPF have done a
great job integrating a11y wrt navigating the content
... Solves that part of the problem, but if you go back
...
... There's this concern, this assumption that EPUB3 is just
going to be accessible because it's accessible
... There's a risk here, b/c if you look at the workflow that
Ivan describes
... EPUB is viewed as a delivery format
... But at the end of the day, how accessible that book is
going to be is not just due to the navigability of the format,
but by the quality of the book
... They have to make a conscious effort to take the high-level
structure and ocnstructs in their XML workflow and push that
into the EPUB
... Just because it's EPUB, does not make it accessible
Ivan: ... I didn't realize that
before
... This has to be part of the workflow workshop
tv: I keep say this is because
when we were young and bright-eyed, we believed that HTML wold
just work for a blind person
... And we were disappointed
... I view each EPUB book as a mini-website
... Enormous opportunity there
... But want to make sure we don't say that it's EPUB, it will
work
... We need to make an effort for it to work, give publishers
the right tools, so that it will work
... If you don't, you will end up with web of today, which is a
mess.
mgylling: Yes. Will note that
IDPF has been working on this problem
... We have a checklist for content accessibility that will be
available within a month
... Allow publishers to learn and to rate their content wrt
a11y
??: I think it's wonderful that EPUB is a mini website, but problem is it's min-Web-island
??: It can't interact with the Web, and Web can't interact with it
??: Would like W3C to be involved in augmenting EPUB's work
??: How do you hook an EPUB into portable annotations?
??: Want to interact with online bibliographies, or other forms of metadata
??: Interaction of web island and the rest of the web,
??: That makes this really interesting
mgylling: Agree with what you said, and ??? CG working on that
<rigo> ?? was David Wood, chair of the RDF WG
mgylling: When it comes to
linking -- there's no restriction of linking out from EPUB to
the Web
... Some retailers restrict, but we can't control that
... Where we need more work, we need inter-EPUB linking
... EPUB doens't have an address
... We tried to solve for EPUB3, but it's extremely complicated
so didn't happen
<Zakim> rigo, you wanted to ask about long term archiving
rigo: My main concern is to
addres long-term archiving
... We're talking about books. There are books 2000 years
old
... How do we imagine that people in 2000 years can read our
ebooks?
... My concern is that nothing the industry makes money out
of
... it's a public policy concern
... In an environment like this, the commercial considreations
prevail, which is normal
... How do we create a strategy that makes publishers care
about hits
??: I'm wondering if we can engage the Internet Archive
janina: 2 comments if I may
... Want to tag onto TV Raman's comments about making sure end
result really is accessible -- just because HTML not guaranteed
it's accessible
... But not just that, need to make sure accessibility is in
the entire process
... in the tools in the process
... Authors need accessibility too
... wrt making sure content is still readable in 2000 years,
think we have a responsibility for that
... Maybe at some point, DRM expires, maybe put unencrypted in
a Library of Congress osmewhere
... There are also accessibility concerns wrt i18n as
well
... Kids who learn a foreign language, need to that to be
presented in an accessible way
... Several intersections here
glazou: I would like to comment
wrt archiving
... We have a few issues there
... Keeping a format for 2000 years is not about keeping the
data, but also keeping the readers
... We keep [...] in SGML for 60 years; it's mandatory in this
country
... ...
... Internet Archive is not a wealthy organization. We can't
depend on them
... Second point is our personal libraries
... We distribute them to our friends, to our children
... when we die, they pass on to next generation
... All this seems to be completely forgotten in electronic
books
... industry needs to think about htis
... electronic books cannot be entirely successful if it only
replaces the text but does not integrate with also the social
habits around books
<r12a> vint cerf is currently studying how to preserve applications along with data for the next 1000 years
fsasaki: Topic of getting
metadata which is already in another format, e.g. XML or CMS,
getting that out into HTML5-based EPUB format is an area ..
a11y and optimization
... We will also touch on this topic ....
<glazou> I would also love to preserve vint cerf himself for the next millenium, r12a ...
fsasaki: standardization .. how to make sure .. HTLM5 content
<bert_> (Keeping the data, keeping the software & hardware, and keeping the cultural context of the time so that future people can understand the meaning...)
fsasaki: please join us at 4 o'clock wrt that
Ivan thanks everyone for participation
and closes the meeting
Meeting closed.
<fsasaki> for the record: we wil discuss topic of getting metadata out of XML or other formats into HTML5 in the multilingual web session 4 p.m. today, if you are interested please join
<karen_> rragent, make minutes
<fsasaki> for the record: 45 people in the session (counted)
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