RDF Working Group Teleconference -- 12 Sep 2012

<trackbot> Date: 12 September 2012

<gavinc> mmm

<gavinc> Zakim doesn't like me

<gavinc> Yeah, no can dial in

<gavinc> Anyone else having any luck dialing in vs being dialed?

<manu1> Guus: regrets for today.

<manu1> Guus: JSON-LD status - We're working on the very last set of issues for the JSON-LD Syntax document, raised by the Drupal Community as they're trying to integrate JSON-LD with Drupal 8.

<Guus> OK, manu

<manu1> Guus: The JSON-LD API document has a bit more work on it, but we're getting close to a LC-ready document as well (1-2 months from now, hopefully?).

<Guus> will make sure this status update gets into the minutes

<manu1> There are really just two major issues left for the spec - property generator round-tripping, via the API and language map round-tripping via the API.

<danbri> regrets from me (I'm on another call)

<manu1> Issues status of JSON-LD Syntax: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues?milestone=2&page=1&sort=updated&state=open

<manu1> Issues status of JSON-LD API: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues?milestone=1&page=1&sort=updated&state=open

<AndyS> Some real examples of what changes will help (for mere mortals)

<Guus> arnoud: are you happy to scribe?

well, "happy" might be asking for a bit much :-)

but yes, I can do it

<gavinc> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PER-xml-20080205/#charsets

<Guus> thx :-)

<gavinc> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-xml-20081126/

<scribe> scribe: arnaud

minutes of last week

<MacTed> Arnaud - yes, the bots are active

RESOLUTION: minutes accepted by consensus

review of action items

<gavinc> There is a box on Turtle tests

guus: next teleconf is next week

turtle

gavinc: two kinds of major LC comments

<sandro> Currently registered for TPAC: richard, ivan, david, guus, fabien, eric, yves, arnaud, steve, sandro.

<gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/I18n-Comments

<ericP> i18n comments

gavinc: most I18n comments are editorial
... 179, 184, and 187 are more interesting

<ericP> 179 - i.e. @lang

gavinc: proposes to reject 179
... the problem is what you do with the default

<AndyS> I don't see why you'd want this feature.

guus: please, post draft response to the list before making a decision

ivan: one of the major problems with this is how do I encode an xstring without a language tag?

<sandro> eric: if you use global @lang, then you can't produce simple literals (pre RDF 1.1) and that's okay.

<davidwood> ericP: I suggest you contact Boris Villazo

guus: proposal is to deny the request, haven't heard anyone disagree

ericP would like to investigate this further

<AndyS> users already find lang tag confusing - this makes it worse.

<davidwood> n-Terrazas, Ontology Engineering Group, Universidad Politecnica de Madrid

<davidwood> re Turtle with language tags

<AndyS> see lots of questions about dbpedia on misc forums

<AndyS> IF this is done, suggest "foo"@ # has default lang.

<PatH> ericP, je n'sais pas, mais c'est possible.

guus: moving on to 184

ericp: let's talk about 187 first

<AndyS> AndyS: SPARQL is a copy of XML edition N at the time (IIRC)

<ericP> 4th ed characters

<ericP> 5th ed characters

<ericP> NT-NameStartChar

<ericP> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml-20060816/#NT-Letter

<ericP> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-xml-20081126/#NT-NameStartChar

davidwood: this should have been raised against SPARQL, this is too late

andys: we need a reason to do differently from xml

ericp: this presumes we are doing the same as xml, which I think we are
... this applies to the other comments as well

<gavinc> From I18N: use \u{xxxxx} instead of \uxxxx or \Uxxxxxxxx

<gavinc> From me: No, do what C, C#, C++, Python and others do.

<gavinc> It's a 2nd Last Call

<ericP> use \u{xx xx xxx xx}

<gavinc> ericP, add \u{xxxxx} to our existing \uXXXX \UXXXXXXXX escapes

ericp: thinks this is a small addition and is worth doing

guus: wonders whether this is the right thing to do given that we are in last call

ivan: concerns with new feature coming in will create problems getting through CR

<gavinc> +q to ask who is interested in \u{xxxxx}

sandro: if we have enough support this may not be an issue

<AndyS> I read it as a helpful suggestion from i18n (to a new language)

guus: what about the comment that examples are culturally bias?

davidwood: use another currency than $

gavinc: thinks can address this

<gavinc> -q

guus: what about inverse property?

<patH> nice//useful

sandro: there won't be another Turtle, it would have to be something else, so this is our last chance

guus: would like a proposal

gavinc: one proposal from one editor is to do nothing

strawpoll: proposal is to do nothing

<sandro> PROPOSED: Do Nothing (on inverse propoerties in turtle)

<sandro> +0.5

<gavinc> +1

<pfps> +1

<AndyS> +1

<davidwood> +0.5

<patH> -0.5

<AZ> +0.5

<mlnt> +0.5

<ericP> -0

<ivan> +1

<MacTed> +0

<AlexHall> +1

straw poll: accepted: do nothing

<patH> I sadly agree.

<Guus> this is not a resolution yet :-)

ok: )

Graphs

guus: re: issue-21, seems like we now have consensus

<Guus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Sep/0056.html

<Guus> Richard's message about ISSUE 21

PROPOSED: When you use the same blank node identifier (like _:x) two different places in a TriG document, the identifier refers to the same blank node.

<patH> quick, lets decide this before Richard gets back....

<MacTed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Sep/0059.html

<MacTed> I think

<Guus> can you hear me?

<gavinc> Richard: Although we perhaps should start with another vote on the ISSUE-21 proposal we had on the table this week. As I said in [1], I am now confident that the underlying issue (When are two blank nodes the same and when are they not?) can be solved by tweaking the definitions of blank nodes and/or graph stores, regardless of the decision we take on ISSUE-21.

<patH> guus, no we cant

<Guus> I have to dial in again

<Guus> can someone take over for a moment?

<sandro> Guus, Eric is chairing

<davidwood> There is also this from Richard, which points to the one above: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Sep/0059.html

<sandro> cygri, you dialing in? we're on issue-21.

<ericP> cygri, we were about to vote on the most recent text of the proposal for resolving issue 21

<cygri> yes

<sandro> <Arnaud> PROPOSED: When you use the same blank node identifier (like _:x) two different places in a TriG document, the identifier refers to the same blank node.

<sandro> (and it closes ISSUE-21.)

<cygri> ISSUE-21?

<trackbot> ISSUE-21 -- Can Node-IDs be shared between parts of a quad/multigraph format? -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/21

guus: richard, can you live with this?

cygri: satisfied a solution can be found with this proposal
... still need to figure out the syntax
... assuming trig or n-quad syntax then I'm ok with this

<sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-21 saying Yes, Node IDs are document scope in the multi-graph syntax (TriG, etc)

<MacTed> +1

<sandro> +1

<ivan> +1

<cygri> +1

<davidwood> +1

<ericP> +1

<pfps> =0

<AZ> +1

<patH> +1

<mlnt> +1

<zwu2> 0

<gavinc> +0

<AndyS> +1

<pfps> 0

<AlexHall> +1

<sandro> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-21 saying Yes, Node IDs are document scope in the multi-graph syntax (TriG, etc)

<patH> :-)

JSON-LD

<patH> that is a metaissue. needs a new semantics.

Dataset semantics

<patH> sorry. I will respond to it later today. Basically I am positive ewith some reservations.

AZ: believe we're close to consensus but need to hear from several people: pat, sandro

patH: one problem is that you can't tell what isn't in a named graph

<gavinc> I agree with PatH, this is a strange feeling mostly as I think I understand what PatH is saying

<cygri> see here for some ramifications: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/Minimal-dataset-semantics#Indirection_between_graph_name_and_graph

patH: not an objection to the proposal but a request to make that clear in the document

<AndyS> Any proposed text for clarification?

<gavinc> YES! NO SIGNING NAMES! :D

patH: if someone else assert a triple is in that graph, I can't say anything about that

cygri: agrees this needs to be clarified

<Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask if i can know what would be the result of a SPARQL query with this definition

ericP: wants to make sure the result of a query over one of these graphs would be defined

<gavinc> Yes, SPARQL will work.

<Guus> request to extend for 5 min (at the most)

ericP: can if I find if a particular triple is in a graph?

<MacTed> and we're back to mutable vs non-mutable...

AZ: sparql query uses simple entailment, queries against a named graph return what you would get by applying the ??

ericp: happy to hear that

sandro: needs more concrete use cases to understand

<sandro> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-spaces/index.html#use-cases

guus: suggests we get back to this next week

<Guus> From Manu: JSON-LD status - We're working on the very last set of issues for the JSON-LD Syntax document, raised by the Drupal Community as they're trying to integrate JSON-LD with Drupal 8. The JSON-LD API document has a bit more work on it, but we're getting close to a LC-ready document as well (1-2 months from now, hopefully?). There are really just two major issues left for the spec - property generator round-tripping, via the API and language map round-trip

guus: meeting adjourned

<MacTed> ciao

<Guus> trackbot, end meeting

- DRAFT -

RDF Working Group Teleconference

12 Sep 2012

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