IRC log of rdf-wg on 2012-09-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:51:43 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:51:43 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-rdf-wg-irc
14:51:45 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
14:51:45 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:51:47 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 73394
14:51:47 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:51:48 [trackbot]: Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:51:48 [trackbot]: Date: 12 September 2012
14:52:36 [AZ]: AZ has joined #rdf-wg
14:53:21 [ericP]: -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/I18n-Comments i18n comments
14:53:37 [gavinc]: mmm
14:53:42 [gavinc]: Zakim doesn't like me
14:54:21 [gavinc]: Yeah, no can dial in
14:54:39 [gavinc]: Anyone else having any luck dialing in vs being dialed?
14:56:51 [gavinc]: Zakim, who is here?
14:56:51 [Zakim]: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, gavinc
14:56:53 [Zakim]: On IRC I see AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, AndyS, yvesr, MacTed, danbri, mischat, ivan, manu1, manu, ericP, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, sandro
14:56:57 [Guus]: zakim, who is here?
14:56:57 [Zakim]: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus
14:56:57 [ScottB]: ScottB has joined #rdf-wg
14:57:00 [Zakim]: On IRC I see AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, AndyS, yvesr, MacTed, danbri, mischat, ivan, manu1, manu, ericP, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, sandro
14:58:25 [manu1]: Guus: regrets for today.
14:58:49 [manu1]: Guus: JSON-LD status - We're working on the very last set of issues for the JSON-LD Syntax document, raised by the Drupal Community as they're trying to integrate JSON-LD with Drupal 8.
14:59:06 [Guus]: OK, manu
14:59:21 [pfps]: pfps has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:23 [manu1]: Guus: The JSON-LD API document has a bit more work on it, but we're getting close to a LC-ready document as well (1-2 months from now, hopefully?).
14:59:31 [Guus]: will make sure this status update gets into the minutes
15:00:04 [manu1]: There are really just two major issues left for the spec - property generator round-tripping, via the API and language map round-tripping via the API.
15:00:10 [AZ]: Zakim, who is here?
15:00:10 [Zakim]: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AZ
15:00:11 [Zakim]: On IRC I see pfps, ScottB, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, AndyS, yvesr, MacTed, danbri, mischat, ivan, manu1, manu, ericP, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, sandro
15:00:13 [Arnaud]: Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:29 [danbri]: regrets from me (I'm on another call)
15:00:40 [manu1]: Issues status of JSON-LD Syntax: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues?milestone=2&page=1&sort=updated&state=open
15:00:48 [Guus]: zakim, who is here?
15:00:48 [Zakim]: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus
15:00:49 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Arnaud, pfps, ScottB, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, AndyS, yvesr, MacTed, danbri, mischat, ivan, manu1, manu, ericP, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, sandro
15:01:01 [manu1]: Issues status of JSON-LD API: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues?milestone=1&page=1&sort=updated&state=open
15:01:02 [PatH]: PatH has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:34 [Guus]: zakim, this is rdf
15:01:34 [Zakim]: ok, Guus; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:01:40 [AndyS]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:40 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Guus, EricP, gavinc, [IBM], ??P3, bhyland, [OpenLink], Tony, ??P11, Arnaud
15:01:43 [MacTed]: Zakim, this is rdfwg
15:01:43 [Zakim]: MacTed, this was already SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:01:43 [Zakim]: ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:01:53 [AndyS]: zakim, ??P11 is me
15:01:53 [Zakim]: +AndyS; got it
15:01:56 [MacTed]: Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me
15:01:58 [MacTed]: Zakim, mute me
15:01:58 [ivan]: zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:01:59 [Zakim]: +MacTed; got it
15:01:59 [ScottB]: Zakim, Tony is temporarily me
15:02:01 [Zakim]: MacTed should now be muted
15:02:02 [AlexHall]: AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:03 [Zakim]: ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:02:05 [Zakim]: +Ivan
15:02:11 [Zakim]: +ScottB; got it
15:02:26 [Zakim]: + +1.443.212.aaaa
15:02:31 [AlexHall]: zakim, aaaa is me
15:02:31 [Zakim]: +AlexHall; got it
15:02:35 [MacTed]: Zakim, who's noisy?
15:02:46 [Zakim]: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gavinc (4%), Guus (39%), EricP (94%), Ivan (5%)
15:03:03 [AndyS]: Some real examples of what changes will help (for mere mortals)
15:03:12 [AZ]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:12 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Guus, EricP, gavinc, [IBM], ??P3, bhyland, MacTed (muted), ScottB, AndyS, Arnaud, Ivan, AlexHall
15:03:26 [AZ]: zakim, ??P3 is me
15:03:26 [Zakim]: +AZ; got it
15:03:28 [Zakim]: +PatH
15:03:31 [Guus]: arnoud: are you happy to scribe?
15:03:56 [Arnaud]: well, "happy" might be asking for a bit much :-)
15:03:59 [Arnaud]: but yes, I can do it
15:04:05 [gavinc]: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PER-xml-20080205/#charsets
15:04:07 [Guus]: thx :-)
15:04:30 [gavinc]: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-xml-20081126/
15:04:37 [Arnaud]: scribe: arnaud
15:04:57 [Arnaud]: agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.09.12
15:05:37 [Arnaud]: topic: minutes of last week
15:05:43 [MacTed]: Arnaud - yes, the bots are active
15:06:07 [Arnaud]: RESOLUTION: minutes accepted by consensus
15:06:26 [Arnaud]: TOPIC: review of action items
15:06:43 [gavinc]: There is a box on Turtle tests
15:07:14 [Zakim]: +Sandro
15:08:27 [Arnaud]: guus: next teleconf is next week
15:08:45 [Arnaud]: TOPIC: turtle
15:09:15 [Arnaud]: gavinc: two kinds of major LC comments
15:09:36 [sandro]: Currently registered for TPAC: richard, ivan, david, guus, fabien, eric, yves, arnaud, steve, sandro.
15:09:50 [gavinc]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/I18n-Comments
15:10:01 [ericP]: -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/I18n-Comments i18n comments
15:10:20 [Arnaud]: gavinc: most I18n comments are editorial
15:11:17 [Arnaud]: gavinc: 179, 184, and 187 are more interesting
15:11:36 [ericP]: 179 - i.e. @lang
15:11:52 [Arnaud]: gavinc: proposes to reject 179
15:13:14 [Arnaud]: gavinc: the problem is what you do with the default
15:13:26 [mlnt]: mlnt has joined #rdf-wg
15:14:25 [AndyS]: I don't see why you'd want this feature.
15:14:32 [Zakim]: -AndyS
15:14:33 [Arnaud]: guus: please, post draft response to the list before making a decision
15:14:51 [ivan]: q+
15:14:55 [Zakim]: +??P11
15:15:02 [AndyS]: zakim, ??P11 is me
15:15:02 [Zakim]: +AndyS; got it
15:15:14 [Guus]: ack ivan
15:15:21 [Zakim]: +??P28
15:15:42 [mlnt]: zakim, ??P28 is mlnt
15:15:42 [Zakim]: +mlnt; got it
15:16:31 [Arnaud]: ivan: one of the major problems with this is how do I encode an xstring without a language tag?
15:17:11 [sandro]: eric: if you use global @lang, then you can't produce simple literals (pre RDF 1.1) and that's okay.
15:17:16 [davidwood]: ericP: I suggest you contact Boris Villazo
15:17:27 [Arnaud]: guus: proposal is to deny the request, haven't heard anyone disagree
15:17:46 [Arnaud]: ericP would like to investigate this further
15:17:59 [AndyS]: users already find lang tag confusing - this makes it worse.
15:18:10 [davidwood]: n-Terrazas, Ontology Engineering Group, Universidad Politecnica de Madrid
15:18:16 [davidwood]: re Turtle with language tags
15:18:17 [AndyS]: see lots of questions about dbpedia on misc forums
15:18:53 [pchampin]: pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:19:14 [Zakim]: +??P29
15:19:14 [AndyS]: IF this is done, suggest "foo"@ # has default lang.
15:20:52 [Guus]: zakim, who is here?
15:20:52 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Guus, EricP, gavinc, [IBM], AZ, bhyland, MacTed (muted), ScottB, Arnaud, Ivan, AlexHall, PatH, Sandro, AndyS, mlnt, pchampin
15:20:52 [Zakim]: On IRC I see pchampin, mlnt, AlexHall, PatH, Arnaud, pfps, ScottB, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, AndyS, yvesr, MacTed, danbri, mischat, ivan, manu1, manu, ericP, gavinc, davidwood,
15:20:55 [Zakim]: ... trackbot, sandro
15:21:22 [ericP]: q?
15:22:43 [PatH]: ericP, je n'sais pas, mais c'est possible.
15:22:56 [Arnaud]: :)
15:24:26 [Arnaud]: guus: moving on to 184
15:24:30 [danbri_]: danbri_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:25:29 [Arnaud]: ericp: let's talk about 187 first
15:25:46 [AndyS]: AndyS: SPARQL is a copy of XML edition N at the time (IIRC)
15:26:04 [ericP]: -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml-20060816/#charsets 4th ed characters
15:26:07 [ericP]: -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-xml-20081126/#charsets 5th ed characters
15:26:15 [ericP]: NT-NameStartChar
15:26:43 [ericP]: http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml-20060816/#NT-Letter
15:26:50 [ericP]: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-xml-20081126/#NT-NameStartChar
15:28:13 [zwu2]: zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:29:48 [Arnaud]: davidwood: this should have been raised against SPARQL, this is too late
15:32:16 [Arnaud]: andys: we need a reason to do differently from xml
15:32:44 [Arnaud]: ericp: this presumes we are doing the same as xml, which I think we are
15:33:41 [Arnaud]: ericp: this applies to the other comments as well
15:33:55 [patH]: patH has joined #rdf-wg
15:34:04 [gavinc]: From I18N: use \u{xxxxx} instead of \uxxxx or \Uxxxxxxxx
15:34:27 [danbri]: danbri has joined #rdf-wg
15:34:45 [gavinc]: From me: No, do what C, C#, C++, Python and others do.
15:37:47 [gavinc]: It's a 2nd Last Call
15:38:28 [ericP]: use \u{xx xx xxx xx}
15:38:40 [gavinc]: ericP, add \u{xxxxx} to our existing \uXXXX \UXXXXXXXX escapes
15:39:18 [Arnaud]: ericp: thinks this is a small addition and is worth doing
15:39:52 [ivan]: q+
15:40:04 [Arnaud]: guus: wonders whether this is the right thing to do given that we are in last call
15:40:07 [Guus]: ack ivan
15:40:36 [Arnaud]: ivan: concerns with new feature coming in will create problems getting through CR
15:41:42 [gavinc]: +q to ask who is interested in \u{xxxxx}
15:41:46 [Arnaud]: sandro: if we have enough support this may not be an issue
15:42:16 [AndyS]: I read it as a helpful suggestion from i18n (to a new language)
15:43:32 [Arnaud]: guus: what about the comment that examples are culturally bias?
15:43:53 [Arnaud]: davidwood: use another currency than $
15:44:28 [Arnaud]: gavinc: thinks can address this
15:44:48 [gavinc]: -q
15:45:25 [Arnaud]: guus: what about inverse property?
15:46:51 [patH]: nice//useful
15:47:54 [Arnaud]: sandro: there won't be another Turtle, it would have to be something else, so this is our last chance
15:48:14 [Arnaud]: guus: would like a proposal
15:48:31 [Arnaud]: gavinc: one proposal from one editor is to do nothing
15:48:51 [Arnaud]: strawpoll: proposal is to do nothing
15:48:52 [sandro]: PROPOSED: Do Nothing (on inverse propoerties in turtle)
15:48:59 [sandro]: +0.5
15:48:59 [gavinc]: +1
15:49:06 [pfps]: +1
15:49:07 [AndyS]: +1
15:49:08 [davidwood]: +0.5
15:49:09 [patH]: -0.5
15:49:10 [AZ]: +0.5
15:49:11 [mlnt]: +0.5
15:49:11 [ericP]: -0
15:49:16 [ivan]: +1
15:49:17 [Arnaud]: +1
15:49:18 [MacTed]: +0
15:49:21 [AlexHall]: +1
15:49:50 [Arnaud]: resolution: accepted: do nothing
15:49:59 [patH]: I sadly agree.
15:50:15 [Guus]: this is not a resolution yet :-)
15:50:22 [Arnaud]: ok :)
15:53:00 [MacTed]: s/resolution: accepted/straw poll: accepted/
15:53:07 [Arnaud]: TOPIC: Graphs
15:54:23 [Zakim]: -Guus
15:54:45 [Arnaud]: guus: re: issue-21, seems like we now have consensus
15:55:04 [Guus]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Sep/0056.html
15:55:14 [Guus]: Richard's message about ISSUE 21
15:55:23 [Arnaud]: PROPOSED: When you use the same blank node identifier (like _:x) two different places in a TriG document, the identifier refers to the same blank node.
15:55:23 [patH]: quick, lets decide this before Richard gets back....
15:56:32 [MacTed]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Sep/0059.html
15:56:33 [MacTed]: I think
15:56:53 [Guus]: can you hear me?
15:56:57 [gavinc]: Richard: Although we perhaps should start with another vote on the ISSUE-21 proposal we had on the table this week. As I said in [1], I am now confident that the underlying issue (When are two blank nodes the same and when are they not?) can be solved by tweaking the definitions of blank nodes and/or graph stores, regardless of the decision we take on ISSUE-21.
15:57:07 [MacTed]: Zakim, unmute me
15:57:07 [Zakim]: MacTed should no longer be muted
15:57:15 [patH]: guus, no we cant
15:57:18 [Guus]: I have to dial in again
15:57:26 [MacTed]: Zakim, mute me
15:57:26 [Zakim]: MacTed should now be muted
15:57:30 [Guus]: can someone take over for a moment?
15:57:41 [sandro]: Guus, Eric is chairing
15:57:48 [davidwood]: There is also this from Richard, which points to the one above: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Sep/0059.html
15:58:29 [cygri]: cygri has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:48 [sandro]: cygri, you dialing in? we're on issue-21.
15:58:56 [ericP]: cygri, we were about to vote on the most recent text of the proposal for resolving issue 21
15:59:08 [Zakim]: +Guus
15:59:09 [cygri]: yes
15:59:32 [Zakim]: +mhausenblas
15:59:47 [cygri]: zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
15:59:48 [ericP]: Zakim, mhausenblas has richard
15:59:54 [Zakim]: +cygri; got it
15:59:55 [Zakim]: sorry, ericP, I do not recognize a party named 'mhausenblas'
16:00:59 [sandro]: <Arnaud> PROPOSED: When you use the same blank node identifier (like _:x) two different places in a TriG document, the identifier refers to the same blank node.
16:01:26 [sandro]: (and it closes ISSUE-21.)
16:01:26 [cygri]: ISSUE-21?
16:01:26 [trackbot]: ISSUE-21 -- Can Node-IDs be shared between parts of a quad/multigraph format? -- open
16:01:26 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/21
16:02:00 [Arnaud]: guus: richard, can you live with this?
16:02:46 [Arnaud]: cygri: satisfied a solution can be found with this proposal
16:03:13 [Arnaud]: cygri: still need to figure out the syntax
16:04:01 [Arnaud]: cygi: assuming trig or n-quad syntax then I'm ok with this
16:04:09 [Arnaud]: s/cygi/cygri/
16:04:13 [sandro]: PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-21 saying Yes, Node IDs are document scope in the multi-graph syntax (TriG, etc)
16:04:24 [Zakim]: -pchampin
16:04:38 [MacTed]: +1
16:04:40 [sandro]: +1
16:04:40 [ivan]: +1
16:04:41 [cygri]: +1
16:04:41 [davidwood]: +1
16:04:41 [ericP]: +1
16:04:44 [pfps]: =0
16:04:44 [AZ]: +1
16:04:44 [patH]: +1
16:04:45 [Arnaud]: +1
16:04:45 [mlnt]: +1
16:04:46 [zwu2]: 0
16:04:48 [gavinc]: +0
16:04:54 [AndyS]: +1
16:04:55 [pfps]: 0
16:05:02 [AlexHall]: +1
16:05:23 [sandro]: RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-21 saying Yes, Node IDs are document scope in the multi-graph syntax (TriG, etc)
16:05:28 [patH]: :-)
16:06:16 [Arnaud]: TOPIC: JSON-LD
16:06:27 [patH]: that is a metaissue. needs a new semantics.
16:06:28 [sandro]: RRSAgent, pointer?
16:06:28 [RRSAgent]: See http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-rdf-wg-irc#T16-06-28
16:06:44 [Arnaud]: TOPIC: Dataset semantics
16:08:10 [patH]: sorry. I will respond to it later today. Basically I am positive ewith some reservations.
16:08:24 [Arnaud]: AZ: believe we're close to consensus but need to hear from several people: pat, sandro
16:09:27 [cygri]: q+
16:10:05 [Arnaud]: patH: one problem is that you can't tell what isn't in a named graph
16:11:03 [ericP]: q+ to ask if i can know what would be the result of a SPARQL query with this definition
16:11:09 [gavinc]: I agree with PatH, this is a strange feeling mostly as I think I understand what PatH is saying
16:11:15 [AZ]: zakim, who's noisy?
16:11:18 [cygri]: see here for some ramifications: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/Minimal-dataset-semantics#Indirection_between_graph_name_and_graph
16:11:24 [Arnaud]: patH: not an objection to the proposal but a request to make that clear in the document
16:11:25 [Zakim]: AZ, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IBM] (14%), bhyland (56%)
16:11:46 [AndyS]: Any proposed text for clarification?
16:11:54 [MacTed]: Zakim, unmute me
16:11:54 [Zakim]: MacTed should no longer be muted
16:11:57 [gavinc]: YES! NO SIGNING NAMES! :D
16:12:09 [Arnaud]: patH: if someone else assert a triple is in that graph, I can't say anything about that
16:12:10 [Guus]: q?
16:12:55 [sandro]: q+
16:13:49 [ivan]: ack cygri
16:14:09 [Guus]: ack cygri
16:14:26 [Arnaud]: cygri: agrees this needs to be clarified
16:14:34 [patH]: q+
16:15:00 [ivan]: ack ericP
16:15:01 [Zakim]: ericP, you wanted to ask if i can know what would be the result of a SPARQL query with this definition
16:15:22 [Arnaud]: ericP: wants to make sure the result of a query over one of these graphs would be defined
16:15:23 [gavinc]: Yes, SPARQL will work.
16:15:51 [Guus]: request to extend for 5 min (at the most)
16:16:10 [cygri]: q+
16:16:20 [Arnaud]: ericP: can if I find if a particular triple is in a graph?
16:16:24 [MacTed]: and we're back to mutable vs non-mutable...
16:16:35 [cygri]: q+ to say, yes you can if your query language works on the abstract syntax like SPARQL
16:17:35 [pchampin]: pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
16:18:22 [cygri]: q-
16:18:27 [Arnaud]: AZ: sparql query uses simple entailment, queries against a named graph return what you would get by applying the ??
16:18:29 [Guus]: ack sandro
16:18:40 [Arnaud]: ericp: happy to hear that
16:18:54 [patH]: q+ to say in response to richard that my point was not about the issue in DD4 but rather the one in DD5.
16:18:57 [cygri]: q+ to ask what our list of “official” use cases is
16:19:08 [Arnaud]: sandro: needs more concrete use cases to understand
16:19:08 [patH]: q-
16:19:35 [cygri]: q-
16:19:52 [sandro]: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-spaces/index.html#use-cases
16:19:54 [Arnaud]: guus: suggests we get back to this next week
16:20:02 [Guus]: ack PatH
16:20:20 [AZ]: zakim, who's noisy?
16:20:25 [Guus]: From Manu: JSON-LD status - We're working on the very last set of issues for the JSON-LD Syntax document, raised by the Drupal Community as they're trying to integrate JSON-LD with Drupal 8. The JSON-LD API document has a bit more work on it, but we're getting close to a LC-ready document as well (1-2 months from now, hopefully?). There are really just two major issues left for the spec - property generator round-tripping, via the API and language map round-trip
16:20:31 [Zakim]: AZ, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MacTed (37%), AndyS (16%), Guus (73%), EricP (5%)
16:20:36 [MacTed]: Zakim, mute me
16:20:36 [Zakim]: MacTed should now be muted
16:20:41 [Zakim]: -ScottB
16:20:44 [Arnaud]: guus: meeting adjourned
16:20:45 [MacTed]: ciao
16:20:47 [Zakim]: -PatH
16:20:48 [Zakim]: -[IBM]
16:20:49 [Zakim]: -cygri
16:20:51 [Zakim]: -gavinc
16:20:52 [Zakim]: -Ivan
16:20:53 [Zakim]: -Sandro
16:20:54 [Zakim]: -AlexHall
16:20:55 [Zakim]: -MacTed
16:20:55 [Zakim]: -AZ
16:20:57 [Zakim]: -Arnaud
16:20:57 [Zakim]: -bhyland
16:20:59 [Zakim]: -mlnt
16:21:01 [Zakim]: -AndyS
16:21:03 [Zakim]: -EricP
16:21:09 [AlexHall]: AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:21:23 [Guus]: trackbot, end meeting
16:21:23 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
16:21:23 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been Guus, EricP, gavinc, [IBM], bhyland, Arnaud, AndyS, MacTed, Ivan, ScottB, +1.443.212.aaaa, AlexHall, AZ, PatH, Sandro, mlnt, pchampin,
16:21:26 [Zakim]: ... cygri
16:21:31 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:21:31 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
16:21:32 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
16:21:32 [RRSAgent]: I see no action items