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<trackbot> Date: 03 July 2012
<scribe> scribe: Andi
action-17?
<trackbot> ACTION-17 -- Gregg Vanderheiden to clarify when WCAG 2.0 Understanding document is likely to be published with these updates -- due 2012-07-03 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/17
AS: WCAG will update
Understanding document as an "Editor's Draft"
... can't publish upated "Public Working Draft" of a W3C
Note
JB: want to make it clear that
for the WCAG2ICT document, even though it will be a W3C Note,
we can still publish a "Public Working Draft"
... ... for review
GV: will get comments on the WCAG2ICT public working draft - will have to address comments in addition to continuing our work
AS: Does screen reader use the locale information the same way it does the lang attribute on HTML?
AH: Doesn't think it does
GV: under GPII, it will
... normally set OS and screen reader to same language
... issue of support in document formats for input and output
formats
KK: concerned about using "document or software product" - should just be "document"
GV: back to the question of
locale - if something is programmatically exposed but there is
no AT that accesses it, it's not "accessibility
supported"
... if software exposes and there is no AT that uses it, then
the SC can't be met
... AT doesn't move from machine to machine, people don't
generally change their locale on a given machine
... not sure AT would ever need to determine the language, may
need to defer this one
<Zakim> BBailey, you wanted to ask about difference between "software" and "software product"
BB: some places we say "document or software" - here now we're saying "document or software PRODUCT"
MP: M376 came up with two
interpretations
... only applicable for formats that support a way to specify
the human language of the document
<Pierce> +q
LM: regarding separate languages for input and output purposes, example of Spanish form that you have to complete in English
<janina> Loïc's issue should be handled by inline lang ml
LM: regarding the locale issue,
many software applications don't care about languages - they
are written for a particular language, don't provide several
languages
... if your application is the same as the platform you are
running on, you don't have to do anything else
... suggests separating "document or software product"
GV: if you separate it, we have to define what line we are separating on
JB: want to make sure the
language doesn't lock in defaults - not sure, based on current
language, what the result would be
... don't want to make it harder for people to get around the
system
AH: think we do need to separate
documents from software and this is a perfect example of
why
... straight line requirement to HTML and Web - everybody knows
exactly what to do
... when we take this outside the Web environment, things are
much less known
... can set input language in MS Office, will accept it but
doesn't tag it in the document
PC: we are already defining
electronic documents that are not interactive beyond simple
hyperlinks
... +1 that we need to define documents and software
... localization is not the same thing - app developer decides
what locales their software supports
GV: tried in the beginning to separate documents from software - not accepted because separation doesn't exist anywhere else
MP: shouldn't be trying to delineate documents and software across all the SC's but on this particular one, we may need to
GV: regarding the issue of locale
not being supported by AT, addressable in the future through
personalization
... this problem doesn't arise in the same way for software
that it does for Web pages
PK: there are at least two
platforms and one AT that are able to deal with language
information that is encoded in documents and software
... locale need only be encoded where it is different from the
platform - that's the only time it is needed
GV: accessibility support has to
be true for your users
... one possible solution - regulatory process can help us
solve this - key phrase "it is supported in some places but not
in others"
<scribe> ACTION: Gregg to work with Andi, Peter, Kiran to draft new proposal for 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/03-wcag2ict-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-25 - Work with Andi, Peter, Kiran to draft new proposal for 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 [on Gregg Vanderheiden - due 2012-07-10].
PK: in software context, this is almost a AAA requirement - suggests seeking permission from WCAG to say that something doesn't apply
GV: applicability is at the regulatory level, not our level
<Pierce> +q
GV: W3C is not chartered to say anything does or doesn't apply outside of Web
MP: M376 will almost certainly come to the conclusion that it's not applicable
GV: could say "only way to interpret this would be that it would mean the following", next layer up (regulatory) would say that's not reasonable
PC: think it's perfectly fine to say "we cannot find a reliable way to apply this to software"
BB: think the TF should say something if they think it's unreasonable to apply something
JB: go with a statement that "it's hard to figure out what to do with this" in our initial review, will get comments that may help
GV: reminder that this document is an informative note, regs can't reference it because it's not normative
<loicmn> +q
GV: don't think we can use one
phrase everywhere - have to look at the intent and see how the
intent plays out in different context
... maybe "documents and software" is what we try to use - more
specific version in those SC where it's too general
MP: gets complicated if we don't
have a term to map it to - introduces a lot of other terms that
people might not know
... M376 team had trouble trying to use "software"
LM: can live with "software" replacing "web pages" in some SC but think we need a replacement in 2.4.2
<korn> Proposal: For software aspects of products, the precise analog to "web page" is difficult to define precisely and absolutely. However, the programmatically determined name (required by Success Criterion 4.1.2 for every user interface component) would also be considered a title for any window, frame, or other explicit grouping of user interface components. Thus for software, conforming to 4.1.2 would also mean conformance to this success criterion
LM: don't want just one title for software, want individual titles for components in software
GV: agree that there are some SC
that we can't use such a general term as "document or
software"
... perhaps regulatory layer can decide that they want to
define static documents as those that don't have any
interactivity other than links
... "software package" is set of products from an organization
that are promoted as a "set"
... intended to work together in some fashion
<loicmn> What about "User interface elements containing all user interface elements have titles that describe topic or purpose"?
<scribe> ACTION: Peter to draft new proposal for 2.4.2 to try to address Loic's suggestion [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/03-wcag2ict-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-26 - Draft new proposal for 2.4.2 to try to address Loic's suggestion [on Peter Korn - due 2012-07-10].
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136 of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s|agenda- Return to June 22nd Meeting Prep Survey, to finish 3.1.2 Language of Parts https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN052012/results#xq8|| Succeeded: s/close action 17// Succeeded: s/it does the lang attribute on HTML/it does the lang attribute on HTML?/ Succeeded: s/Should we unmute Al, so he can raise his hand if he wants to join in?// Succeeded: s/reply this to software/apply this to software/ Succeeded: s/OK, sorry// Succeeded: s/Pierce Crowell/Pierce_Crowell/ Succeeded: s/I'll retry sip// Succeeded: s/Loic's issue/Loïc's issue/ Succeeded: s/Guess being muted fools SIP into thinking the call is inactive!// Succeeded: s/I'll volunteer...// Succeeded: s|Return to June 22nd Meeting Prep Survey, to finish 3.1.2 Language of Parts https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN052012/results#xq8|| Found Scribe: Andi Inferring ScribeNick: Andi Default Present: Bruce_Bailey, +1.571.296.aaaa, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Allen_Hoffman, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Cooper, Kiran_Keja, Mike_Pluke Present: Bruce_Bailey +1.571.296.aaaa Andi_Snow_Weaver Gregg_Vanderheiden Allen_Hoffman Mary_Jo_Mueller Cooper Kiran_Keja Mike_Pluke Loïc_Martínez_Normand Janina_Sajka Peter_Korn Pierce_Crowell Regrets: David_MacDonald Found Date: 03 Jul 2012 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/07/03-wcag2ict-minutes.html People with action items: gregg peter[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]