13:54:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:54:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/03-wcag2ict-irc
13:54:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:54:47 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wcag2ict
13:54:49 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2428
13:54:49 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
13:54:50 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:54:50 <trackbot> Date: 03 July 2012
13:55:02 <Andi> chair: Mike_Pluke
13:55:05 <Andi> scribe: Andi
13:56:16 <Judy> Judy has joined #wcag2ict
13:57:17 <BBailey> BBailey has joined #wcag2ict
13:57:17 <Andi> agenda+ Action item review http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/open
13:58:23 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has now started
13:58:30 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey
13:58:34 <Andi> agenda+ Return to June 22nd Meeting Prep Survey, to finish 3.1.2 Language of Parts https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN052012/results#xq8
13:58:35 <Zakim> + +1.571.296.aaaa
13:58:43 <Mike> Mike has joined #wcag2ict
13:59:11 <Zakim> +Andi_Snow_Weaver
13:59:27 <Zakim> +??P10
13:59:46 <Andi> agenda- Return to June 22nd Meeting Prep Survey, to finish 3.1.2 Language of Parts https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN052012/results#xq8
13:59:56 <loicmn> loicmn has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:06 <Andi> s|agenda- Return to June 22nd Meeting Prep Survey, to finish 3.1.2 Language of Parts https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN052012/results#xq8||
14:00:20 <Zakim> +Gregg_Vanderheiden
14:00:26 <BBailey> zakim, .aaaa is Allen_Hoffman
14:00:26 <Zakim> sorry, BBailey, I do not recognize a party named '.aaaa'
14:00:31 <janina> janina has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:32 <MaryJo> MaryJo has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:00:33 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:44 <BBailey> zakim, aaaa is Allen_Hoffman
14:00:44 <Zakim> +Allen_Hoffman; got it
14:00:54 <Zakim> +??P14
14:01:15 <Zakim> +Mary_Jo_Mueller
14:01:32 <Zakim> +Cooper
14:01:39 <Andi> agenda+ Return to June 5th Meeting Prep Survey, starting with 3.1.1 Language of Page https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN052012/results#xq8
14:01:45 <Zakim> +Kiran_Keja
14:01:54 <Zakim> +??P20
14:02:13 <Andi> agenda+ Return to June 22nd Meeting Prep Survey, to finish 3.1.2 Language of Parts https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN222012/results#xq1
14:02:18 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P10 is Mike_Pluke
14:02:18 <Zakim> +Mike_Pluke; got it
14:02:26 <janina> zakim, mute me
14:02:26 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:02:36 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P20 is Janina_Sajka
14:02:36 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
14:02:43 <Andi> agenda+ Re-survey on 2.4.2 Page Titled https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUL032012/results
14:02:43 <janina> zakim, mute me
14:02:44 <Zakim> Janina_Sajka should now be muted
14:03:15 <Kiran> Kiran has joined #wcag2ict
14:03:17 <Zakim> +Judy
14:03:20 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
14:03:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/03-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
14:03:22 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P14 is Loïc_Martínez_Normand
14:03:22 <Zakim> +Loïc_Martínez_Normand; got it
14:04:46 <Andi> zakim, next ite
14:04:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'next ite', Andi
14:04:51 <Andi> zakim, next item
14:04:51 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Action item review http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/open" taken up [from Andi]
14:05:44 <Andi> action-17?
14:05:45 <trackbot> ACTION-17 -- Gregg Vanderheiden to clarify when WCAG 2.0 Understanding document is likely to be published with these updates -- due 2012-07-03 -- OPEN
14:05:45 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/17
14:06:24 <Judy> q+
14:06:48 <Judy> q-
14:07:52 <Andi> AS: WCAG will update Understanding document as an "Editor's Draft"
14:08:15 <Andi> AS: can't publish upated "Public Working Draft" of a W3C Note
14:08:58 <Andi> JB: want to make it clear that for the WCAG2ICT document, even though it will be a W3C Note, we can still publish a "Public Working Draft"
14:09:06 <Andi> JB: ... for review
14:10:03 <Andi> GV: will get comments on the WCAG2ICT public working draft - will have to address comments in addition to continuing our work
14:10:14 <Andi> close action 17
14:10:26 <Andi> s/close action 17//
14:10:38 <Andi> zakim, next item
14:10:38 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Return to June 22nd Meeting Prep Survey, to finish 3.1.2 Language of Parts https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN052012/results#xq8" taken up [from Andi]
14:10:45 <Andi> zakim, close item
14:10:45 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', Andi
14:11:32 <Andi> zakim, close this item
14:11:32 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
14:11:33 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:11:33 <Zakim> 3. Return to June 5th Meeting Prep Survey, starting with 3.1.1 Language of Page https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN052012/results#xq8 [from Andi]
14:11:37 <Andi> zakim, next item
14:11:37 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Return to June 5th Meeting Prep Survey, starting with 3.1.1 Language of Page https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN052012/results#xq8" taken up [from Andi]
14:13:14 <Andi> q+
14:13:29 <Kiran> q+
14:13:33 <loicmn> q+
14:13:35 <Andi> q+ Al_Hoffman
14:13:43 <loicmn> q-
14:14:10 <Andi> q- Al_Hoffman
14:14:15 <Andi> ack Andi
14:14:22 <BBailey> q+ to ask about difference between "software" and "software product"
14:14:46 <Zakim> +Pierce_Crowell
14:14:57 <Andi> AS: Does screen reader use the locale information the same way it does the lang attribute on HTML
14:15:10 <Andi> AH: Doesn't think it does
14:15:22 <Andi> GV: under GPII, it will
14:15:41 <Andi> GV: normally set OS and screen reader to same language
14:16:28 <Andi> s/it does the lang attribute on HTML/it does the lang attribute on HTML?/
14:17:02 <Pierce> Pierce has joined #wcag2ict
14:17:07 <Andi> GV: issue of support in document formats for input and output formats
14:17:18 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
14:17:45 <Andi> KK: concerned about using "document or software product" - should just be "document"
14:18:07 <Mike> q+
14:18:12 <Andi> ack Kiran
14:18:21 <janina> zakim, call janina
14:18:21 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
14:18:22 <Zakim> +Janina
14:18:29 <loicmn> q+
14:19:04 <Zakim> -Janina
14:19:16 <janina> OK, sorry
14:19:34 <janina> I'll retry sip
14:19:58 <Zakim> +??P20
14:20:10 <janina> zakim, ??P20 is Janina_Sajka
14:20:10 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
14:20:17 <janina> zakim, mute me
14:20:17 <Zakim> Janina_Sajka should now be muted
14:20:21 <Judy> q+
14:20:38 <Andi> GV: back to the question of locale - if something is programmatically exposed but there is no AT that accesses it, it's not "accessibility supported"
14:21:16 <Andi> GV: if software exposes and there is no AT that uses it, then the SC can't be met
14:21:54 <Andi> GV: AT doesn't move from machine to machine, people don't generally change their locale on a given machine
14:22:18 <Andi> GV: not sure AT would ever need to determine the language, may need to defer this one
14:22:28 <Andi> q+ Al_Hoffman
14:22:37 <Andi> ack bbailey
14:22:37 <Zakim> BBailey, you wanted to ask about difference between "software" and "software product"
14:23:05 <Andi> BB: some places we say "document or software" - here now we're saying "document or software PRODUCT"
14:24:09 <Andi> ack mike
14:24:46 <Andi> MP: M376 came up with two interpretations 
14:25:14 <Andi> MP: only applicable for formats that support a way to specify the human language of the document
14:25:51 <Pierce> +q
14:26:18 <Andi> ack loic
14:27:15 <Andi> LM: regarding separate languages for input and output purposes, example of Spanish form that you have to complete in English
14:28:17 <janina> Loic's issue should be handled by inline lang ml
14:28:40 <Andi> LM: regarding the locale issue, many software applications don't care about languages - they are written for a particular language, don't provide several languages
14:29:06 <Andi> LM: if your application is the same as the platform you are running on, you don't have to do anything else
14:29:44 <Andi> LM: suggests separating "document or software product" 
14:30:00 <Andi> GV: if you separate it, we have to define what line we are separating on
14:30:09 <Judy> q?
14:30:42 <Andi> ack Judy
14:31:40 <Andi> JB: want to make sure the language doesn't lock in defaults - not sure, based on current language, what the result would be
14:31:57 <Andi> JB: don't want to make it harder for people to get around the system
14:32:11 <Andi> ack al
14:32:21 <Andi> ack Al_Hoffman
14:32:25 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:32:37 <Andi> AH: think we do need to separate documents from software and this is a perfect example of why
14:32:54 <Andi> AH: straight line requirement to HTML and Web - everybody knows exactly what to do
14:33:19 <Mike> q+
14:33:41 <Andi> AH: when we take this outside the Web environment, things are much less known
14:34:34 <Andi> AH: can set input language in MS Office, will accept it but doesn't tag it in the document
14:35:02 <Andi> ack Pierce
14:35:10 <Zakim> +[Oracle]
14:35:23 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
14:35:30 <Andi> PC: we are already defining electronic documents that are not interactive beyond simple hyperlinks
14:35:44 <korn> korn has joined #wcag2ict
14:35:45 <janina> Guess being muted fools SIP into thinking the call is inactive!
14:35:48 <Andi> zakim, [Oracle] is Peter_Korn
14:35:48 <Zakim> +Peter_Korn; got it
14:36:06 <Zakim> +??P20
14:36:13 <Andi> PC: +1 that we need to define documents and software
14:36:24 <janina> zakim, ??P20 is Janina_Sajka
14:36:24 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
14:36:30 <janina> zakim, mute me
14:36:30 <Zakim> Janina_Sajka should now be muted
14:37:15 <Andi> PC: localization is not the same thing - app developer decides what locales their software supports
14:37:28 <korn> q?
14:37:34 <Andi> ack gregg
14:37:42 <Kiran> q+
14:38:19 <Andi> GV: tried in the beginning to separate documents from software - not accepted because separation doesn't exist anywhere else
14:41:44 <Kiran> q-
14:41:55 <Andi> MP: shouldn't be trying to delineate documents and software across all the SC's but on this particular one, we may need to
14:42:00 <Andi> ack mike
14:42:47 <korn> q+
14:43:26 <Andi> GV: regarding the issue of locale not being supported by AT, addressable in the future through personalization 
14:44:15 <Andi> GV: this problem doesn't arise in the same way for software that it does for Web pages
14:45:14 <Andi> PK: there are at least two platforms and one AT that are able to deal with language information that is encoded in documents and software
14:46:07 <Zakim> -Allen_Hoffman
14:46:48 <Andi> PK: locale need only be encoded where it is different from the platform - that's the only time it is needed
14:47:25 <Andi> ack korn
14:48:44 <Andi> GV: accessibility support has to be true for your users
14:49:10 <Judy> zakim, who's here?
14:49:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see Bruce_Bailey, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Mike_Pluke, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Loïc_Martínez_Normand, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Cooper, Kiran_Keja, Judy, Pierce_Crowell, Peter_Korn,
14:49:13 <Zakim> ... Janina_Sajka (muted)
14:49:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see korn, Pierce, Kiran, greggvanderheiden, MaryJo, janina, loicmn, Mike, BBailey, Judy, Zakim, RRSAgent, Andi, MichaelC, trackbot
14:50:06 <korn> q+
14:50:59 <Andi> GV: one possible solution - regulatory process can help us solve this - key phrase "it is supported in some places but not in others"
14:51:19 <korn> I'll volunteer...
14:51:30 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
14:51:43 <Zakim> +??P7
14:52:01 <janina> zakim, ??P7 is Janina_Sajka
14:52:01 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
14:52:08 <janina> zakim, mute me
14:52:08 <Zakim> Janina_Sajka should now be muted
14:52:16 <Andi> ack korn
14:53:51 <Andi> action: Gregg to work with Andi, Peter, Kiran to draft new proposal for 3.1.1 and 3.1.2
14:53:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-25 - Work with Andi, Peter, Kiran to draft new proposal for 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 [on Gregg Vanderheiden - due 2012-07-10].
14:54:21 <korn> q+
14:55:35 <Andi> zakim, next item
14:55:35 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Andi
14:55:56 <Andi> ack korn
14:56:53 <Andi> PK: in software context, this is almost a AAA requirement - suggests seeking permission from WCAG to say that something doesn't apply
14:57:14 <Mike> q+
14:57:40 <Andi> GV: applicability is at the regulatory level, not our level
14:58:22 <Pierce> +q
14:58:33 <Andi> GV: W3C is not chartered to say anything does or doesn't apply outside of Web
14:58:52 <Judy> q?
14:59:25 <Andi> ack mike
14:59:54 <Andi> MP: M376 will almost certainly come to the conclusion that it's not applicable
15:00:11 <BBailey> q+ 
15:00:31 <Andi> GV: could say "only way to interpret this would be that it would mean the following", next layer up (regulatory) would say that's not reasonable
15:00:36 <korn> Should we unmute Al, so he can raise his hand if he wants to join in?
15:00:56 <Andi> PC: think it's perfectly fine to say "we cannot find a reliable way to reply this to software"
15:01:10 <Judy> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:01:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Bruce_Bailey, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Mike_Pluke, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Loïc_Martínez_Normand, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Cooper, Kiran_Keja, Judy, Pierce_Crowell, Peter_Korn,
15:01:11 <Zakim> ... Janina_Sajka (muted)
15:01:21 <Andi> s/Should we unmute Al, so he can raise his hand if he wants to join in?//
15:01:27 <BBailey> s/reply this to software/apply this to software/
15:01:40 <Judy> q+
15:01:57 <Andi> ack PC
15:02:01 <Andi> ack Pierce
15:02:38 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:02:46 <Andi> BB: think the TF should say something if they think it's unreasonable to apply something
15:02:50 <Andi> ack bb
15:02:56 <Andi> ack judy
15:04:04 <Andi> JB: go with a statement that "it's hard to figure out what to do with this" in our initial review, will get comments that may help 
15:04:43 <Andi> ack gregg
15:05:04 <Andi> GV: reminder that this document is an informative note, regs can't reference it because it's not normative
15:05:46 <Andi> zakim, next item
15:05:46 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Return to June 22nd Meeting Prep Survey, to finish 3.1.2 Language of Parts https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN222012/results#xq1" taken up [from Andi]
15:05:53 <Andi> zakim, close this item
15:05:53 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
15:05:54 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:05:54 <Zakim> 5. Re-survey on 2.4.2 Page Titled https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUL032012/results [from Andi]
15:05:57 <Andi> zakim, next item
15:05:57 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Re-survey on 2.4.2 Page Titled https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUL032012/results" taken up [from Andi]
15:07:13 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:07:23 <Zakim> +Peter_Korn.a
15:07:33 <korn> zakim, Peter_Korn.a is Peter_Korn
15:07:33 <Zakim> +Peter_Korn; got it
15:08:19 <Zakim> -Peter_Korn
15:08:59 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:09:05 <Andi> ack gregg
15:09:27 <korn> q+
15:09:56 <Mike> q+
15:10:49 <loicmn> +q
15:11:29 <Andi> GV: don't think we can use one phrase everywhere - have to look at the intent and see how the intent plays out in different context
15:12:38 <Andi> GV: maybe "documents and software" is what we try to use - more specific version in those SC where it's too general
15:13:20 <korn> q?
15:13:27 <Andi> ack korn
15:15:32 <Andi> ack mike
15:16:21 <Andi> MP: gets complicated if we don't have a term to map it to - introduces a lot of other terms that people might not know
15:17:06 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:18:15 <Andi> MP: M376 team had trouble trying to use "software"
15:19:08 <Andi> ack loic
15:19:47 <Andi> LM: can live with "software" replacing "web pages" in some SC but think we need a replacement in 2.4.2
15:20:11 <korn> Proposal:  For  software aspects of products, the precise analog to "web page" is  difficult to define precisely and absolutely.  However, the  programmatically determined name (required by Success Criterion 4.1.2  for every user interface component) would also be considered a title for  any window, frame, or other explicit grouping of user interface  components. Thus for software, conforming to 4.1.2 would also mean  conformance to this success criterion
15:20:15 <korn> q+
15:20:15 <Andi> LM: don't want just one title for software, want individual titles for components in software
15:21:09 <Andi> ack gregg
15:21:27 <Mike> q+
15:21:44 <Andi> GV: agree that there are some SC that we can't use such a general term as "document or software"
15:23:08 <Andi> GV: perhaps regulatory layer can decide that they want to define static documents as those that don't have any interactivity other than links
15:23:39 <Andi> GV: "software package" is set of products from an organization that are promoted as a "set"
15:24:11 <Andi> GV: intended to work together in some fashion
15:24:28 <korn> q?
15:25:20 <Andi> ack korn
15:28:13 <Andi> ack mike
15:28:14 <loicmn> q+
15:28:34 <loicmn> What about "User interface elements containing all user interface elements have titles that describe topic or purpose"?
15:30:14 <Andi> ack loic
15:30:49 <korn>  q+
15:31:26 <Zakim> -Kiran_Keja
15:32:01 <Andi> action: Peter to draft new proposal for 2.4.2 to try to address Loic's suggestion
15:32:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-26 - Draft new proposal for 2.4.2 to try to address Loic's suggestion [on Peter Korn - due 2012-07-10].
15:32:39 <Zakim> -Pierce_Crowell
15:32:58 <Zakim> -Judy
15:33:00 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow_Weaver
15:33:01 <Zakim> -Loïc_Martínez_Normand
15:33:01 <Zakim> -Cooper
15:33:03 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
15:33:03 <Zakim> -Peter_Korn.aa
15:33:04 <Zakim> -Gregg_Vanderheiden
15:33:08 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
15:33:10 <Andi> zakim, bye
15:33:10 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Bruce_Bailey, +1.571.296.aaaa, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Allen_Hoffman, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Cooper, Kiran_Keja, Mike_Pluke,
15:33:10 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
15:33:13 <Zakim> ... Janina_Sajka, Judy, Loïc_Martínez_Normand, Pierce_Crowell, Janina, Peter_Korn
15:33:16 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:33:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/03-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:33:22 <janina> janina has left #wcag2ict
15:35:05 <korn> korn has left #wcag2ict
15:52:28 <Andi> regrets: David_MacDonald
15:52:37 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:52:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/03-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
16:19:06 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has left #wcag2ict
18:54:57 <Andi> Andi has joined #wcag2ict
20:23:35 <Andi> present+ Loïc_Martínez_Normand
20:23:39 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
20:23:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/03-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
20:24:26 <Andi> present+ Janina_Sajka, Peter_Korn
20:24:30 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
20:24:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/03-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
20:24:53 <Andi> present+ Pierce Crowell
20:28:27 <Andi> s/OK, sorry//
20:28:47 <Andi> s/Pierce Crowell/Pierce_Crowell/
20:28:57 <Andi> s/I'll retry sip//
20:29:54 <Andi> s/Loic's issue/Loïc's issue/
20:30:50 <Andi> s/Guess being muted fools SIP into thinking the call is inactive!//
20:31:37 <Andi> s/I'll volunteer...//
20:33:46 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
20:33:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/03-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
20:34:26 <Andi> s|Return to June 22nd Meeting Prep Survey, to finish 3.1.2 Language of Parts https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN052012/results#xq8||
20:34:52 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
20:34:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/03-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
20:55:24 <shadi> shadi has joined #wcag2ict
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