SVG Working Group Teleconference

21 Jun 2012


See also: IRC log


heycam, chris


<trackbot> Date: 21 June 2012

<scribe> scribenick: nikos

Report from Test the Web Forward

krit: I have a blog post about it

<krit> http://blogs.adobe.com/webplatform/2012/06/20/test-the-web-forward-weekend/

krit: I think it was a great event. Lots of people were interested and wrote tests for SVG.

shepazu: I thought it was good that Adobe is helping to push testing this way
... I made a new methodology for testing transforms

<shepazu> http://schepers.cc/svg/tests/test-transforms-rotate.svg

Cyril: I looked at the test, it just shows green on pass

shepazu: That's the idea
... what I did is programatically create 360 rectangles that are all red
... removed transforms and converted to paths in InkScape
... then put the resulting shape back into the test on a green background
... then included original transforms and to get rid of aliasing I added a 3 pixel green stroke
... the result - all you see is green
... we can use this for SVG and CSS transforms
... you may have artifacts if you use pngs

Cyril: fonts may cause problems when converted to paths

shepazu: I gave a presentation at TTWF - there were about 50-60 people
... first day was food and methodologies
... second day was presentations on how you make tests and share them, etc
... the rest was people writing tests. During the day, Adobe raffled prizes
... people were there, on a nice day so that says something about how Adobe hosted
... about 100 tests were submitted
... Alan Stearns, Peter Linss, fantasai and some others presented
... Thanks to Adobe. It was a great event. Good work Dirk on creating my slides.

ed: Do we have any svg tests to approve?

shepazu: Ryosuke Niwa from Google made a number of tests
... They were created by krit, I did modify them by hand
... There's a markup syntax you can use and then generate html+css slides

krit: There's no wysiwyg tool though

SVG inline elements replaced elements? display: inline

krit: We have created some tests with inline SVG and we were wondering where we define how the SVG element contributes to HTML
... Is it specified already?
... Our test showed us that the default is inline
... all browsers do the same, the question is whether it is specified?

ed: What have you checked in the spec so far?

krit: I searched in the HTML5 and a bit in the SVG spec and I couldn't find anything

Tav: I think it should be in the SVG integration spec

shepazu: I am the editor of the SVG integration spec. We resolved to publish it long ago but I'm not sure about the direction of it
... the problem is that we were wanting to have a definitive list of all attributes in a table and the script for generating it was screwed up. I was waiting on a fix.
... there's also a lot of comments on the spec that we need to integrate

Tav: I think it's an important spec

shepazu: Yeh I think it's important, so if we can get that script working, then I'm happy to publish whenever
... Anthony was working on it

ed: CDF working group never got around to defining the SVG-inline-in-html case
... I don't think it has anything defining how inline SVG and HTML works

shepazu: SVG integration draws from some ideas from CDF, so I think that's the right place to put it

krit: I wouldn't be opposed

ed: I agree
... It's nice that all the viewers do the same thing even though it isn't defined. A lot of content would break if it wasn't like that

shepazu: SVG integration lists all attributes and properties and where they are defined
... that wouldn't be appropriate for SVG 2 spec
... we could put it in SVG 2 if we want

Resolution: SVG inline in html case will be defined in SVG 2

<scribe> ACTION: shepazu will include SVG inline in html case in SVG 2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/21-svg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3310 - Will include SVG inline in html case in SVG 2 [on Doug Schepers - due 2012-06-28].

FX: short hand for filter effects

krit: At the moment we have filter effects without a dash and both capitalised
... CSS and SVG don't use capitalised words
... I propose we use filter-effects without capitals

ed: Ok with me

Resolution: Filter effects shorthand will be filter-effects

ed: Dirk you are going to be come co-editor of that spec?

krit: Not 100% sure yet

<scribe> ACTION: krit change filter effects shorthand to filter-effects [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/21-svg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - krit

<krit> dschulze

<scribe> ACTION: dschulze change filter effects shorthand to filter-effects [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/21-svg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3311 - Change filter effects shorthand to filter-effects [on Dirk Schulze - due 2012-06-28].

Update on status of and plans for non-SVG2 specs

<ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0097.html

nikos: Compositing and blending has been reviewed by krit, FPWD not far off. I'm not sure how long each step takes so it's hard to update the table

krit: When you think it's ready you can get resolution from FXTF

Tav: How many months do you normally allow per step?

shepazu: That varies FPWD - LC could be 2 years it could be less
... LC to CR 6-8 weeks is reasonablye but you'll probably have more than 1 LC
... so probably 4 months
... Technically you don't need to go into CR, if you have tests that are passed by implementations you can have 0 day CR
... more typically is a few months or 6 months
... depends on implementations and tests
... After CR comes proposed reccomendation which is 6 weeks
... sort of a watch state
... maybe 4 weeks
... then comes REC. W3C specs are good for 10 years and then they are removed

ed: I think one of the things Cameron wanted figured out was for the specs that no one is doing edits on

krit: Any particular spec?

ed: SVG accessibility for example
... do we have anything on that?

shepazu: Not really, I have some notes and little things
... A member has expressed interest in joining to explicitly work on SVG accessibility

ed: Do the estimates look ok then?
... does it make sense to list an estimate with no one working on it?

Tav: leave it blank

shepazu: We could put those in a separate list. Timeline is pending securing an editor
... we should give as much info as we have

ed: Another one that was asked about was masking and clipping

shepazu: Did we decide not to do that one?

ed: I think so. From what I remember we talked about using the compositing instead

krit: I thought Ed O'Conner and Vincent wanted to work on a masking spec
... I'll check

nikos: There's an open action on Anthony Grasso to fold clipping and masking spec into compositing module
... from 2008

ed: what about SVG Parameters?

shepazu: People are working on that. I'd like to devote a telcon on it sometime

ed: the estimates are ok then?

shepazu: For now. you guys change the timelines as you think
... First we need to look at first draft, then the api and syntax
... maybe I could make a public call to find out what syntax people want
... it might be able to be defined in terms of CSS variables
... I'd have to talk to Tab about that
... maybe he could join a call

ed: SVG Integration. What's holding that back?

shepazu: attributes table
... I think Cameron might be the natural person to do that
... he's managing the build system

nikos: do we know the status of the script?

shepazu: Can we put this on the agenda for next week?

ed: Color Management? Chris is not here, he was the one doing that spec
... He posted to the list. There is work going on that one
... Tiling and Layering?

birtles: I've been in discussion with Takagi-san. He's working on it and will integrate some of the features into SVG 2 proper. I need to go through the stuff he's sent me. He's still active on it.
... He's saying that mapping is becoming more central to the web. especially with mobile. With Apple pushing their mapping he wants to push for a standard.

ed: Vector Effects?

shepazu: I see Chris plans to prioritise work on SVG 2 over that until SVG 2 is further along

ed: We already have resolutions to add minor pieces from it into SVG 2
... so we're just waiting for someone to take up SVG accessibility

birtles: I'd like to add animations onto that list

<birtles> Web Animations spec: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/web-anim/index.html

<ed> s/minor pieces from it/minor pieces from it (such as non-scaling-stroke and fill/stroke-order)/

ed: so how close is the web animations spec from FPWD?

birtles: The initial goal is to have it more or less complete by SVG open (September)

krit: Do we need reviews on it before FPWD?

birtles: I suppose we do. I'm not familiar with the normal process.

ed: I guess the review before publishing FPWD is up to the working groups
... if not everyone agrees on a resolution to publish FPWD it will need more work

birtles: We'd like to have something ready to be reviewed by mid to late September

ed: So brian do you want to add it to the table/

birtles: yep


HTML5 video and SVG graphics synchronisation

Cyril: It's a follow up of something I was working on before my trip to Australia

<Cyril> http://concolato.wp.mines-telecom.fr/2012/06/18/html-5-video-and-svg-graphics-synchronization/

Cyril: I was working on a way to display SVG graphics on video in a browser
... I made some experiments
... Basically I put SVG content in a web vtt file
... I've tested with all browsers and it doesn't work at the moment
... I don't think it's a proper solution
... I tried a different approach using Canvas. I have a HTML5 video and I monitor the time events
... I wasn't really succesful with this solution either
... time and date event isn't precise
... last attempt was displaying an SVG animation on top of the video. It works quite well.
... it works very well for stepping through the video frame by frame
... as did canvas
... but when you play it real speed it plays almost properly
... the thing that bothers me is, I used the seek features, I couldn't control the timeline
... my reccommendation is if people thing it's an interesting use case we should enable HTML 5 media group on SVG element
... if two elements share the same value for media group then they are synchronised by the browser
... you wouldn't have to do anything
... another element is to allow the svg element inside the track element of HTML

birtles: We've looked at it as part of web animations. it's difficult.

Cyril: so far from my tests it seems to work only on Chrome
... I think if we want synchronised video and graphics with frame accuracy we don't want to do it with script
... the browser controls the timeline so telling the browser the timeline should follow the video is the way to go

birtles: I agree. We talked about a number of options when Alex, Shane and Rik came to Tokyo
... the main difficulty is integrating with HTML's media element interfaces
... I think it's something we want in web animations and I think that's the right place for it.

Cyril: I'm not sure if it's a question of animation. It seems to be more a question of integration

birtles: The use case could be video and text or video and svg as you mentioned

Cyril: Do you have documentation - minutes or anything?

birtles: not much. We did talk about having a third time container which is a synchronised time container specifically to line up with HTML media groups

Cyril: Maybe we can discuss at the F2F in July

<birtles> there are a few notes here: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Web_Animations/Meetings/Tokyo_F2F_Day_1 (but I think we later reversed a lot of those decisions :) )

<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues

Open issues/actions

ed: Not all issues have an assigned product

<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/open

ed: Same story with the actions

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: dschulze change filter effects shorthand to filter-effects [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/21-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: krit change filter effects shorthand to filter-effects [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/21-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: shepazu will include SVG inline in html case in SVG 2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/21-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.136 (CVS log)
$Date: 2012/06/21 22:10:50 $

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/[missed name]/Ryosuke Niwa/
Succeeded: s/HMLT/HTML/
Succeeded: s/CDS/CDF/
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WARNING: Bad s/// command: s/minor pieces from it/minor pieces from it (such as non-scaling-stroke and fill/stroke-order)/
Found ScribeNick: nikos
Inferring Scribes: nikos

WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: Cyril Doug_Schepers P0 P11 Tav aaaa aabb aacc aadd birtles ed jet joined krit nikos scribenick shepazu svg trackbot
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
        <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary
        <dbooth> Present+ amy

Regrets: heycam chris
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0097.html

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 21 Jun 2012
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/06/21-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: change dschulze effects filter krit shepazu shorthand

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