Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 20 September 2012

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.09.20
Seen
Christine Runnegar, Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, Ivan Herman, James Cheney, Jun Zhao, Luc Moreau, Paul Groth, Stephan Zednik, Ted Thibodeau, Timothy Lebo, Tom De Nies, Trung Huynh
Regrets
James Cheney, Curt Tilmes, Ivan Herman
Chair
Paul Groth
Scribe
Tom De Nies
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. Minutes of the September 13, 2012 Telecon link
  2. leave prov-dm to allow for loose types and each serialisation should adopt their own type representation link
  3. the suggested resolutions in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ResponsesToPublicComments to ISSUE-532, ISSUE-525, ISSUE-507, ISSUE-504, ISSUE-503, ISSUE-447 were accepted as responses by the working group. there were no objections to the resolutions on the mailing group only support link
Topics
  1. Admin

  2. Charter Extension

    The group was notified that the charter for the group was extended to September 2013, however, the goal is to stay on the schedule outlined at the last face-to-face meeting.

  3. FAQ

    An FAQ for PROV was created on the Semantic Web Activity wiki. The group was encouraged to add any information or faq entries there.

  4. PROV-XML

    An update on prov-xml was given. Curt had resolved several issues. ISSUE-493 was resolved - the group agreed that serializations are free to adopt their own type representation. The prov-xml team is getting close to be able to begin on creating the note associated with prov-xml. An update will be given next week.

  5. Resolving Public Issues

    The group agreed that the chairs would be responsible for responding to public comments. Luc went through some additional issues that he had proposed resolutions for. The same pattern as last time would be followed, where the group had several days to review the responses and object if they didn't agree with the resoultions. The group also made a formal vote resolving previously resolved public issues.

  6. Prov-o issues

    PROV-O Issues with open actions were gone through. Stian and Satya were not on the call so Paul agreed to follow-up with them on their open issues. Jun agreed to talk to Graham about how to resolve issue 461 about the printable layout of the PROV-o document. The group discussed two issues to do with subclassing (issues 523 and 552) particularly with Influence. It was decided that the PROV-O issue 552 was subsumed by 523. This is a complicated issue and 523 should be resolved before moving on to 552.

14:50:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/20-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/20-prov-irc

14:50:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:50:30 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:50:30 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:50:31 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:50:31 <trackbot> Date: 20 September 2012
14:50:33 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV

Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:50:33 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes

14:50:51 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.09.20
14:50:58 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
14:51:10 <pgroth> Scribe: Tom De Nies

(Scribe set to Tom De Nies)

14:51:20 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, make logs public

14:51:46 <pgroth> Regrets: James Cheney, Curt Tilmes, Ivan Herman
14:54:57 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:55:04 <Zakim> +??P9

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P9

14:55:12 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P9 is me

Paul Groth: Zakim, ??P9 is me

14:55:12 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

14:58:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

14:58:26 <Luc> zakim, [IPcaller] is me

Luc Moreau: zakim, [IPcaller] is me

14:58:26 <Zakim> +Luc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc; got it

14:58:35 <Luc> zakim, who is on the call?

Luc Moreau: zakim, who is on the call?

14:58:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, Luc

14:59:51 <Zakim> +??P11

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P11

15:00:13 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:00:23 <TomDN> zakim, ipcaller is me

zakim, ipcaller is me

15:00:23 <Zakim> +TomDN; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +TomDN; got it

15:00:55 <TomDN> zakim, who is on the phone?

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:00:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, ??P11, TomDN

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, ??P11, TomDN

15:01:06 <pgroth> Zakim, who is loud?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who is loud?

15:01:06 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, pgroth.

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, pgroth.

15:01:11 <pgroth> Zakim, who is noisy?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who is noisy?

15:01:21 <Zakim> pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: TomDN (65%)

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: TomDN (65%)

15:01:23 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:01:24 <Zakim> +??P25

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25

15:01:30 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:01:30 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:01:32 <jun> zakim, ??P25 is me

Jun Zhao: zakim, ??P25 is me

15:01:32 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:01:32 <Zakim> +jun; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jun; got it

15:01:34 <TomDN> yes

yes

15:01:34 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:01:50 <pgroth> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

15:02:37 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-09-13

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-09-13

15:02:46 <TomDN> pgroth: approval of last week's minutes

Paul Groth: approval of last week's minutes

15:02:48 <pgroth> Minutes of the September 13, 2012 Telecon

Paul Groth: Minutes of the September 13, 2012 Telecon

15:02:58 <TomDN> +1

+1

15:03:03 <Dong> +1

Trung Huynh: +1

15:03:08 <jun> +1

Jun Zhao: +1

15:03:37 <pgroth> accepted: Minutes of the September 13, 2012 Telecon

RESOLVED: Minutes of the September 13, 2012 Telecon

15:04:31 <pgroth> Topic: Charter Extension

2. Charter Extension

Summary: The group was notified that the charter for the group was extended to September 2013, however, the goal is to stay on the schedule outlined at the last face-to-face meeting.

<pgroth> Summary: The group was notified that the charter for the group was extended to September 2013, however, the goal is to stay on the schedule outlined at the last face-to-face meeting.
15:04:39 <TomDN> pgroth: we need scribes, please sign up in advance

Paul Groth: we need scribes, please sign up in advance

15:04:47 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:05:03 <TomDN> pgroth: We are close to the end of the charter, but our extension request was approved

Paul Groth: We are close to the end of the charter, but our extension request was approved

15:05:14 <pgroth>  http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter

15:05:19 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.315.330.aaaa

15:05:29 <TomDN> ... initially, we wanted it up to April/May, but we got an extension to september 2013

... initially, we wanted it up to April/May, but we got an extension to september 2013

15:05:57 <TomDN> ... However, we're still aiming to deliver everything according to the schedule agreed at F2F3

... However, we're still aiming to deliver everything according to the schedule agreed at F2F3

15:06:18 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

15:06:19 <TomDN> ... We will make an updated timeline some time next week

... We will make an updated timeline some time next week

15:06:21 <pgroth> q-

Paul Groth: q-

15:06:23 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:06:37 <pgroth> Topic: FAQ

3. FAQ

Summary: An FAQ for PROV was created on the Semantic Web Activity wiki. The group was encouraged to add any information or faq entries there.

<pgroth> Summary: An FAQ for PROV was created on the Semantic Web Activity wiki. The group was encouraged to add any information or faq entries there.
15:07:03 <TomDN> pgroth: Last week, we had an action to make an FAQ on PROV

Paul Groth: Last week, we had an action to make an FAQ on PROV

15:07:12 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/PROV

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/PROV

15:07:24 <TomDN> ... Among others, the use of dc:hasPart for sub-activities is in there

... Among others, the use of dc:hasPart for sub-activities is in there

15:07:55 <TomDN> ... the WG is invited to populate this FAQ

... the WG is invited to populate this FAQ

15:07:58 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

15:08:00 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:08:03 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:08:12 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:08:45 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:08:49 <TomDN> pgroth: This is at the Semantic Web activity wiki, which means that we can keep updating this, even after the WG is finished

Paul Groth: This is at the Semantic Web activity wiki, which means that we can keep updating this, even after the WG is finished

15:08:55 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-XML

4. PROV-XML

Summary: An update on prov-xml was given. Curt had resolved several issues. ISSUE-493 was resolved - the group agreed that serializations are free to adopt their own type representation. The prov-xml team is getting close to be able to begin on creating the note associated with prov-xml. An update will be given next week.

<pgroth> Summary: An update on prov-xml was given. Curt had resolved several issues. ISSUE-493 was resolved - the group agreed that serializations are free to adopt their own type representation. The prov-xml team is getting close to be able to begin on creating the note associated with prov-xml. An update will be given next week.
15:09:38 <TomDN> pgroth: There were a couple of issues that we didn't resolve last week, perhaps Stephan can go over them

Paul Groth: There were a couple of issues that we didn't resolve last week, perhaps Stephan can go over them

15:10:00 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/493

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/493

15:10:23 <TomDN> pgroth: Where are we in issue 493?

Paul Groth: Where are we in ISSUE-493?

15:10:41 <TomDN> zednik: Right now the schema reflects the DM completely

Stephan Zednik: Right now the schema reflects the DM completely

15:11:04 <TomDN> ... We didn't want to move away from the DM, so we haven't made any changes in the schema

... We didn't want to move away from the DM, so we haven't made any changes in the schema

15:11:51 <TomDN> ... We use RDF types, to respresent type information, as it is the most natural/intuitive way

... We use RDF types, to respresent type information, as it is the most natural/intuitive way

15:12:13 <TomDN> ... We are still discussing.

... We are still discussing.

15:12:30 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:12:34 <TomDN> pgroth: So each serialization can have its own type. Do we all agree to this?

Paul Groth: So each serialization can have its own type. Do we all agree to this?

15:12:55 <TomDN> zednik: Not sure, the telecon on monday was too small to tell if everyone agrees

Stephan Zednik: Not sure, the telecon on monday was too small to tell if everyone agrees

15:13:13 <TomDN> Luc: We don't want to be too restrictive for these types

Luc Moreau: We don't want to be too restrictive for these types

15:13:23 <TomDN> ... to avoid overconstraining things.

... to avoid overconstraining things.

15:14:08 <TomDN> ... In the ontology, we use RDF types, which is fine for the RDF mapping, but I'm not sure what we should use in XML

... In the ontology, we use RDF types, which is fine for the RDF mapping, but I'm not sure what we should use in XML

15:14:10 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:14:12 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:14:18 <TomDN> ... It would be up to the translator to determine this.

... It would be up to the translator to determine this.

15:15:06 <TomDN> pgroth: Seems like a good idea, except that it would be problematic to convert PROV-XML to RDF, if the types don't agree

Paul Groth: Seems like a good idea, except that it would be problematic to convert PROV-XML to RDF, if the types don't agree

15:15:16 <Luc> in xml, we have prov:type and not xsd:type

Luc Moreau: in xml, we have prov:type and not xsd:type

15:15:26 <Luc> in xml, we have prov:type and not xsi:type

Luc Moreau: in xml, we have prov:type and not xsi:type

15:15:41 <TomDN> zednik: We don't have a complex type for agents that are also entities

Stephan Zednik: We don't have a complex type for agents that are also entities

15:15:55 <TomDN> ... e.g. "this is an entity with type agent"

... e.g. "this is an entity with type agent"

15:16:23 <TomDN> pgroth: So the resolution would be to leave things as they are: loose like in the DM.

Paul Groth: So the resolution would be to leave things as they are: loose like in the DM.

15:16:36 <TomDN> ... and leave typing up to the implementer

... and leave typing up to the implementer

15:17:21 <TomDN> Luc: elaborates on "in xml, we have prov:type and not xsi:type"

Luc Moreau: elaborates on "in xml, we have prov:type and not xsi:type"

15:17:30 <TomDN> ... which is an xml attribute

... which is an xml attribute

15:17:46 <TomDN> zednik: so you can only have one?

Stephan Zednik: so you can only have one?

15:18:02 <TomDN> ... That is not the case in the DM or ontology

... That is not the case in the DM or ontology

15:18:26 <pgroth> proposed: leave prov-dm to allow for loose types and each serialisation should define their own type system

PROPOSED: leave prov-dm to allow for loose types and each serialisation should define their own type system

15:18:37 <tlebo> zakim, who is on the phone?

Timothy Lebo: zakim, who is on the phone?

15:18:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, ??P11, TomDN, MacTed (muted), jun, [IPcaller], +1.315.330.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, ??P11, TomDN, MacTed (muted), jun, [IPcaller], +1.315.330.aaaa

15:18:40 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:18:45 <tlebo> zakim, I am aaaa

Timothy Lebo: zakim, I am aaaa

15:18:45 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo; got it

15:18:58 <christine> zakim, ??P11 is me

Christine Runnegar: zakim, ??P11 is me

15:18:58 <Zakim> +christine; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +christine; got it

15:19:06 <pgroth> proposed: leave prov-dm to allow for loose types and each serialisation should adopt their own type representation

PROPOSED: leave prov-dm to allow for loose types and each serialisation should adopt their own type representation

15:19:14 <TomDN> Luc: it would be better to say "should adopt their own type representation"

Luc Moreau: it would be better to say "should adopt their own type representation"

15:19:17 <TomDN> +1

+1

15:19:19 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:19:21 <Luc> q-

Luc Moreau: q-

15:19:21 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

15:19:24 <Dong> +1

Trung Huynh: +1

15:19:30 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:19:49 <pgroth> accepted: leave prov-dm to allow for loose types and each serialisation should adopt their own type representation

RESOLVED: leave prov-dm to allow for loose types and each serialisation should adopt their own type representation

15:20:04 <TomDN> pgroth: that resolves issue 493

Paul Groth: that resolves ISSUE-493

15:20:09 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/551

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/551

15:20:11 <TomDN> issue 551?

ISSUE-551?

15:20:44 <TomDN> zednik: Curt made some changes to the schema that resolved this

Stephan Zednik: Curt made some changes to the schema that resolved this

15:20:52 <Luc> I think it was a good solution to introduce this documentElement

Luc Moreau: I think it was a good solution to introduce this documentElement

15:21:26 <TomDN> ... It basically flattened out the schema

... It basically flattened out the schema

15:21:31 <zednik> div - http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/rev/b88f0f02344f

Stephan Zednik: div - http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/rev/b88f0f02344f

15:21:57 <TomDN> ... so you don't have a separate section for the relations

... so you don't have a separate section for the relations

15:22:03 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:22:07 <TomDN> pgroth: Were there any objections?

Paul Groth: Were there any objections?

15:22:11 <TomDN> zednik: no

Stephan Zednik: no

15:22:14 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:23:14 <TomDN> Luc: There was some refactoring of the schema that took place. All the attributes were placed in a single group "commonattributes"

Luc Moreau: There was some refactoring of the schema that took place. All the attributes were placed in a single group "commonattributes"

15:23:47 <TomDN> zednik: We havent been able to talk about it in the group, so we should probably raise an issue about it

Stephan Zednik: We havent been able to talk about it in the group, so we should probably raise an issue about it

15:24:30 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

15:24:33 <TomDN> sorry i missed that last

sorry i missed that last

15:25:13 <TomDN> pgroth: I think we did have a resolution about how close you have to get to the DM in a serialization

Paul Groth: I think we did have a resolution about how close you have to get to the DM in a serialization

15:25:48 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:26:01 <TomDN> ... If we favour something that's "natural" for RDF, we should do the same for XML

... If we favour something that's "natural" for RDF, we should do the same for XML

15:26:36 <TomDN> zednik: Since you can have attributes on almost anything, we grouped it as such

Stephan Zednik: Since you can have attributes on almost anything, we grouped it as such

15:27:01 <TomDN> ... I think it's doable to revert, although it unsimplifies the schema.

... I think it's doable to revert, although it unsimplifies the schema.

15:27:01 <Luc> it's already done http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/rev/7c238aba1d07

Luc Moreau: it's already done http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/rev/7c238aba1d07

15:27:10 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:28:09 <TomDN> Luc: the group commonattributes has been removed from the schema

Luc Moreau: the group commonattributes has been removed from the schema

15:28:10 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:28:13 <Luc> q-

Luc Moreau: q-

15:28:39 <TomDN> pgroth: So how far are we away from a draft document?

Paul Groth: So how far are we away from a draft document?

15:28:51 <TomDN> zednik: So how ready/stable is the schema?

Stephan Zednik: So how ready/stable is the schema?

15:29:33 <TomDN> ... Well, Curt and I have been going through the issues. Most are resolved now, so it is pretty stable.

... Well, Curt and I have been going through the issues. Most are resolved now, so it is pretty stable.

15:29:41 <Luc> there is still the type of identifiers to address

Luc Moreau: there is still the type of identifiers to address

15:30:18 <TomDN> Zednik: So we are getting close to being able to start on the draft of the Note

Stephan Zednik: So we are getting close to being able to start on the draft of the Note

15:30:30 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:30:34 <TomDN> pgroth: OK, we'll check back next week

Paul Groth: OK, we'll check back next week

15:30:37 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:30:44 <TomDN> Luc: Will there be a call on monday?

Luc Moreau: Will there be a call on monday?

15:31:06 <TomDN> zednik: Curt can't make it, but I can, and will send out an email to ask if it's possible.

Stephan Zednik: Curt can't make it, but I can, and will send out an email to ask if it's possible.

15:31:09 <Luc> q-

Luc Moreau: q-

15:31:13 <pgroth> Topic: Resolving Public Issues

5. Resolving Public Issues

Summary: The group agreed that the chairs would be responsible for responding to public comments. Luc went through some additional issues that he had proposed resolutions for. The same pattern as last time would be followed, where the group had several days to review the responses and object if they didn't agree with the resoultions. The group also made a formal vote resolving previously resolved public issues.

<pgroth> Summary: The group agreed that the chairs would be responsible for responding to public comments. Luc went through some additional issues that he had proposed resolutions for. The same pattern as last time would be followed, where the group had several days to review the responses and object if they didn't agree with the resoultions. The group also made a formal vote resolving previously resolved public issues.
15:31:31 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ResponsesToPublicComments

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ResponsesToPublicComments

15:31:52 <Zakim> +??P12

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12

15:31:56 <TomDN> pgroth: We need to clarify who is responsible for response to public comments.

Paul Groth: We need to clarify who is responsible for response to public comments.

15:32:08 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P12 is me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P12 is me

15:32:08 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it

15:32:12 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:32:19 <TomDN> ... My tendency would be to have me or Luc do it.

... My tendency would be to have me or Luc do it.

15:32:22 <tlebo> q+

Timothy Lebo: q+

15:32:26 <TomDN> ... Any other suggestions?

... Any other suggestions?

15:33:10 <TomDN> tlebo: It would be best if we work at the response on the weekly telecons, and then consistently have the chairs formulate the response to the commenter

Timothy Lebo: It would be best if we work at the response on the weekly telecons, and then consistently have the chairs formulate the response to the commenter

15:33:23 <christine> +1

Christine Runnegar: +1

15:33:33 <TomDN> pgroth: Any objections to this?

Paul Groth: Any objections to this?

15:33:52 <tlebo> note -  "formulate" -> "provide", naturally, the group would be formulating the response in our usual way.

Timothy Lebo: note - "formulate" -> "provide", naturally, the group would be formulating the response in our usual way.

15:33:59 <TomDN> pgroth: So it's agreed. Paul will handle the responses

Paul Groth: So it's agreed. Paul will handle the responses

15:34:50 <TomDN> Luc: There were no objections to the resolutions to the following issues:

Luc Moreau: There were no objections to the resolutions to the following issues:

15:35:33 <TomDN> ... (Lists the issues)

... (Lists the issues)

15:36:04 <TomDN> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ResponsesToPublicComments

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ResponsesToPublicComments

15:36:24 <pgroth> accepted: the suggested resolutions in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ResponsesToPublicComments to ISSUE-532, ISSUE-525, ISSUE-507, ISSUE-504, ISSUE-503, ISSUE-447 were accepted as responses by the working group. there were no objections to the resolutions on the mailing group only support

RESOLVED: the suggested resolutions in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ResponsesToPublicComments to ISSUE-532, ISSUE-525, ISSUE-507, ISSUE-504, ISSUE-503, ISSUE-447 were accepted as responses by the working group. there were no objections to the resolutions on the mailing group only support

15:38:00 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:38:05 <pgroth> ack tlebo

Paul Groth: ack tlebo

15:38:11 <tlebo> q-

Timothy Lebo: q-

15:38:12 <TomDN> Luc: I'm happy to take feedback on the proposed responses now, but I will also follow the usual protocol, and ask for feedback on the mailinglist

Luc Moreau: I'm happy to take feedback on the proposed responses now, but I will also follow the usual protocol, and ask for feedback on the mailinglist

15:38:35 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:38:36 <TomDN> ... If there's no objections by next Thursday, those will be our responses.

... If there's no objections by next Tuesday, those will be our responses.

15:38:49 <pgroth> s/Thursday/Tuesday
15:38:55 <TomDN> tnx

tnx

15:38:56 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:39:18 <dgarijo> thanks for the links, I'll have a look at the responses.

Daniel Garijo: thanks for the links, I'll have a look at the responses.

15:40:11 <TomDN> Luc: We have addressed about 10 of the 35 issues about the DM. I'm planning to draft responses next week

Luc Moreau: We have addressed about 10 of the 35 issues about the DM. I'm planning to draft responses next week

15:40:56 <pgroth> Topic: Prov-o issues

6. Prov-o issues

Summary: PROV-O Issues with open actions were gone through. Stian and Satya were not on the call so Paul agreed to follow-up with them on their open issues. Jun agreed to talk to Graham about how to resolve issue 461 about the printable layout of the PROV-o document. The group discussed two issues to do with subclassing (issues 523 and 552) particularly with Influence. It was decided that the PROV-O issue 552 was subsumed by 523. This is a complicated issue and 523 should be resolved before moving on to 552.

<pgroth> Summary: PROV-O Issues with open actions were gone through. Stian and Satya were not on the call so Paul agreed to follow-up with them on their open issues. Jun agreed to talk to Graham about how to resolve issue 461 about the printable layout of the PROV-o document. The group discussed two issues to do with subclassing (issues 523 and 552) particularly with Influence. It was decided that the PROV-O issue 552 was subsumed by 523. This is a complicated issue and 523 should be resolved before moving on to 552.
15:41:32 <TomDN> pgroth: Last week, on Monday, we tried to clean up some issues in PROV-O, and defined some actions

Paul Groth: Last week, on Monday, we tried to clean up some issues in PROV-O, and defined some actions

15:41:45 <TomDN> ... We will walk through them here

... We will walk through them here

15:41:54 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/491

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/491

15:42:13 <Luc> stian?

Luc Moreau: stian?

15:42:25 <TomDN> ... Stian was going to handle ACTION-107, I will follow up on this with him

... Stian was going to handle ACTION-107, I will follow up on this with him

15:42:46 <tlebo> the trig example.

Timothy Lebo: the trig example.

15:42:48 <TomDN> issue 479?

ISSUE-479?

15:42:53 <dgarijo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/479

Daniel Garijo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/479

15:43:25 <MacTed> issue-479?

Ted Thibodeau: ISSUE-479?

15:43:25 <trackbot> ISSUE-479 -- cite TriG for examples -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-479 -- cite TriG for examples -- open

15:43:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/479

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/479

15:44:04 <TomDN> ... Satya was going to take ACTION-108. No changes have been made yet, will follow up.

... Satya was going to take ACTION-108. No changes have been made yet, will follow up.

15:44:18 <TomDN> (tnx macted, forgot the hyphen)

(tnx macted, forgot the hyphen)

15:44:59 <TomDN> pgroth: Next one is ACTION-109 on issue-349

Paul Groth: Next one is ACTION-109 on ISSUE-349

15:45:23 <TomDN> Jun: I took over David's actions

Jun Zhao: I took over David's actions

15:45:31 <TomDN> ... and ACTION-109 is done.

... and ACTION-109 is done.

15:45:54 <TomDN> issue-349?

ISSUE-349?

15:45:54 <trackbot> ISSUE-349 -- examples for each term in cross-reference section -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-349 -- examples for each term in cross-reference section -- open

15:45:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/349

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/349

15:46:30 <TomDN> pgroth: There were two more actions for this issue: ACTION-110 and ACTION-111 for Satya and Stian

Paul Groth: There were two more actions for this issue: ACTION-110 and ACTION-111 for Satya and Stian

15:46:30 <dgarijo> we reviewed the examples to check that they were updated with the latest DM

Daniel Garijo: we reviewed the examples to check that they were updated with the latest DM

15:46:49 <TomDN> tlebo: I've seen no changes to the examples yet.

Timothy Lebo: I've seen no changes to the examples yet.

15:47:12 <TomDN> ... also. ACTION-112 was on the same issue

... also. ACTION-112 was on the same issue

15:47:34 <pgroth> daniel?

Paul Groth: daniel?

15:47:35 <TomDN> pgroth: last one was on Daniel, ACTION-113 about issue 446

Paul Groth: last one was on Daniel, ACTION-113 about ISSUE-446

15:47:40 <dgarijo> I have lost connection

Daniel Garijo: I have lost connection

15:47:43 <TomDN> issue-446?

ISSUE-446?

15:47:43 <trackbot> ISSUE-446 -- prov:involvee not documented in PROV-O -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-446 -- prov:involvee not documented in PROV-O -- open

15:47:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/446

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/446

15:47:44 <tlebo> daniels' action 113 is "prov:involvee not documented in PROV-O"

Timothy Lebo: daniels' ACTION-113 is "prov:involvee not documented in PROV-O"

15:47:50 <dgarijo> I have restarted the discussions

Daniel Garijo: I have restarted the discussions

15:47:57 <dgarijo> with Kai, Simon and Michael

Daniel Garijo: with Kai, Simon and Michael

15:48:09 <dgarijo> we plan to address his comments next week

Daniel Garijo: we plan to address his comments next week

15:48:16 <Zakim> -dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo

15:48:34 <Zakim> +??P12

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12

15:48:45 <TomDN> pgroth: Tim, do you need help on closing any other issues?

Paul Groth: Tim, do you need help on closing any other issues?

15:49:15 <TomDN> tlebo: Yes, could use help with issue 461

Timothy Lebo: Yes, could use help with ISSUE-461

15:49:20 <TomDN> issue-461?

ISSUE-461?

15:49:20 <trackbot> ISSUE-461 -- provo cross reference inadequate in printed form -- raised

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-461 -- provo cross reference inadequate in printed form -- raised

15:49:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/461

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/461

15:49:43 <TomDN> ... Would be nice if someone could take over this one.

... Would be nice if someone could take over this one.

15:50:15 <TomDN> pgroth: Someone needs to talk to Graham to identify what he needs

Paul Groth: Someone needs to talk to Graham to identify what he needs

15:50:22 <TomDN> jun: I can do that

Jun Zhao: I can do that

15:50:55 <dgarijo> +q

Daniel Garijo: +q

15:51:19 <TomDN> pgroth: It would be good to know all the remaining issues on PROV-O

Paul Groth: It would be good to know all the remaining issues on PROV-O

15:51:39 <TomDN> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/10

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/10

15:52:18 <TomDN> tlebo: 349 is closed

Timothy Lebo: 349 is closed

15:52:40 <TomDN> ... Not sure about 446, 479 and 491

... Not sure about 446, 479 and 491

15:53:29 <TomDN> dgarijo: What happened with the issues about the figures?

Daniel Garijo: What happened with the issues about the figures?

15:54:04 <TomDN> tlebo: There's no formal issue, but it is being looked into

Timothy Lebo: There's no formal issue, but it is being looked into

15:54:21 <pgroth> ack dgarijo

Paul Groth: ack dgarijo

15:54:22 <TomDN> ... now waiting on review of the changes made in the draft

... now waiting on review of the changes made in the draft

15:54:40 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/552

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/552

15:54:58 <TomDN> pgroth: 552 was an external comment about subclasses

Paul Groth: 552 was an external comment about subclasses

15:55:12 <Luc> issue-552?

Luc Moreau: ISSUE-552?

15:55:12 <trackbot> ISSUE-552 -- Check subclass definitions in prov-o -- raised

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-552 -- Check subclass definitions in prov-o -- raised

15:55:12 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/552

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/552

15:55:12 <TomDN> ... Is this a DM issue or PROV-O issue?

... Is this a DM issue or PROV-O issue?

15:55:27 <Luc> issue-523?

Luc Moreau: ISSUE-523?

15:55:27 <trackbot> ISSUE-523 -- Data Model Section 5.3.5 -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-523 -- Data Model Section 5.3.5 -- open

15:55:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/523

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/523

15:56:01 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:56:09 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-comments/2012Sep/0000.html

Paul Groth: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-comments/2012Sep/0000.html

15:56:25 <TomDN> tlebo: seems like a problem with the interpretation of the DM, so it is a PROV-O issue

Timothy Lebo: seems like a problem with the interpretation of the DM, so it is a PROV-O issue

15:56:27 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:56:37 <christine> Thank you Paul, Luc and everyone. Apologies, I have to leave to chair a call starting on the hour.

Christine Runnegar: Thank you Paul, Luc and everyone. Apologies, I have to leave to chair a call starting on the hour.

15:56:46 <Zakim> -christine

Zakim IRC Bot: -christine

15:56:54 <TomDN> Luc: I think there's a general problem about inheritance that we may want to revisit in the DM

Luc Moreau: I think there's a general problem about inheritance that we may want to revisit in the DM

15:57:18 <TomDN> ... , illustrated by issue 523, about influence

... , illustrated by ISSUE-523, about influence

15:58:37 <TomDN> ... In the constraints, we say that IF wasDerivedFrom(b,a) THEN wasInfluencedBy(b,a)

... In the constraints, we say that IF wasDerivedFrom(b,a) THEN wasInfluencedBy(b,a)

15:59:02 <TomDN> ... So we may want to opt for inheritance, which is what PROV-O does

... So we may want to opt for inheritance, which is what PROV-O does

15:59:12 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

15:59:28 <TomDN> ... and it works well for most ontologies I think. However, I am not sure if we'd also want it in PROV-XML

... and it works well for most ontologies I think. However, I am not sure if we'd also want it in PROV-XML

15:59:50 <TomDN> ... Would be nice to have feedback here.

... Would be nice to have feedback here.

15:59:52 <tlebo> +1 to what luc said

Timothy Lebo: +1 to what luc said

16:00:07 <TomDN> pgroth: Would that only apply to influence? or all of the DM?

Paul Groth: Would that only apply to influence? or all of the DM?

16:00:20 <TomDN> Luc: I'm focusing on influence, currently

Luc Moreau: I'm focusing on influence, currently

16:00:47 <tlebo> does "influence" == "relation" ?

Timothy Lebo: does "influence" == "relation" ?

16:01:13 <TomDN> pgroth: My only issue with that is: whether or not we would change the UML in correspondence with that

Paul Groth: My only issue with that is: whether or not we would change the UML in correspondence with that

16:01:36 <TomDN> ... It may not be normative, but developers do use it for their implementations

... It may not be normative, but developers do use it for their implementations

16:01:38 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

16:01:50 <jun> [have to go now. will catch up on the minutes]

Jun Zhao: [have to go now. will catch up on the minutes]

16:02:07 <Zakim> -jun

Zakim IRC Bot: -jun

16:02:09 <TomDN> Luc: any subtype of influence can be used in any position of influence.

Luc Moreau: any subtype of influence can be used in any position of influence.

16:02:39 <TomDN> ... Perhaps "interface" would be better than inheritance

... Perhaps "interface" would be better than inheritance

16:03:07 <TomDN> ... to indicate that all subtypes are all "influence"

... to indicate that all subtypes are all "influence"

16:04:11 <Luc> issue-552?

Luc Moreau: ISSUE-552?

16:04:11 <trackbot> ISSUE-552 -- Check subclass definitions in prov-o -- raised

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-552 -- Check subclass definitions in prov-o -- raised

16:04:11 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/552

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/552

16:04:41 <TomDN> pgroth: For now, this issue should be considered together with issue-523

Paul Groth: For now, this issue should be considered together with ISSUE-523

16:05:04 <TomDN> Luc: There's another issue in the DM, dealing with inheritance

Luc Moreau: There's another issue in the DM, dealing with inheritance

16:05:21 <TomDN> ... So we should tackle these as a set.

... So we should tackle these as a set.

16:05:51 <TomDN> Luc: Stephan, working with the XML schema, have you considered extension of types?

Luc Moreau: Stephan, working with the XML schema, have you considered extension of types?

16:06:16 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:06:22 <TomDN> zednik: It has come up, but we haven't looked into it. It should be done after the schema is stabilized.

Stephan Zednik: It has come up, but we haven't looked into it. It should be done after the schema is stabilized.

16:06:58 <dgarijo> Sure

Daniel Garijo: Sure

16:07:02 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

16:07:07 <TomDN> pgroth: Given the time, we will save the topic on notes for next week.

Paul Groth: Given the time, we will save the topic on notes for next week.

16:07:11 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

16:07:12 <Zakim> -pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth

16:07:13 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

16:07:14 <TomDN> ok, tnx!

ok, tnx!

16:07:15 <Zakim> -??P12

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P12

16:07:16 <TomDN> bye

bye

16:07:25 <Zakim> -TomDN

Zakim IRC Bot: -TomDN

16:07:32 <pgroth> rrsagnet, set log public

Paul Groth: rrsagnet, set log public

16:07:40 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, set log public

16:07:52 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes

Paul Groth: rrsagent, draft minutes

16:07:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/20-prov-minutes.html pgroth

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/20-prov-minutes.html pgroth

16:08:04 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller]

16:08:04 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon

Paul Groth: trackbot, end telcon

16:08:04 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

16:08:05 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended

16:08:05 <Zakim> Attendees were pgroth, Luc, TomDN, MacTed, jun, [IPcaller], +1.315.330.aaaa, tlebo, christine, dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were pgroth, Luc, TomDN, MacTed, jun, [IPcaller], +1.315.330.aaaa, tlebo, christine, dgarijo

16:08:05 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is

16:08:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:08:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/20-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/20-prov-minutes.html trackbot

16:08:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

16:08:13 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items



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This revision (#1) generated 2012-09-24 10:01:19 UTC by 'pgroth', comments: 'fixed irc bugs and added summaries'