The group was referred to the wiki page on the 4th face-to-face meeting. All members were encouraged to indicate their attendance either in-person or on the phone.
PROV-Constraints Dissemination
The prov-constraints document has gone last call and the editor's posted an associated blog entry. The group was encouraged to spread the information and encourage reviews. The following people agreed to send emails. Ivan to the semweb list. Satya to the HCLS mailing list. Luc to the provenance-challenge mailing list. James would be asked to send the news to the Dagstuhl mailing list.
Luc went through a list of issues raised externally on the PROV-DM and received feedback on his suggest replies. The group agreed to review his proposed replies by Tuesday of the following week. If there were no objections these would be sent as responses on behalf of the group.
The group discussed ISSUE-447 on whether to introduce subactivity based on external feedback. The resolution was to introduce a FAQ that would suggest the use of dcterms:hasPart but to leave this out of any official specs. Paul agreed to start this FAQ on the Semantic Web Activity wiki so that it could be updated in the future.
Paul presented an structure for the implementation report. Stephan has produced an associated questionnaire that allows implementers to easily report their information. The group discussed the need for test cases. The group agreed that example test cases were good but that producing an actual test harness is probably not feasible.
14:24:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-irc ←
14:24:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
14:24:35 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be ←
14:24:35 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot ←
14:24:36 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:24:36 <trackbot> Date: 13 September 2012
14:24:52 <ivan> zakim, this will be prov
Ivan Herman: zakim, this will be prov ←
14:24:52 <Zakim> ok, ivan; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 36 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 36 minutes ←
14:57:49 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
(No events recorded for 32 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started ←
14:57:56 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo
Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo ←
14:58:25 <Zakim> +Luc
Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc ←
14:59:00 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
14:59:07 <pgroth> trackbot, start telcon
Paul Groth: trackbot, start telcon ←
14:59:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
14:59:11 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be ←
14:59:11 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot ←
14:59:12 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:59:12 <trackbot> Date: 13 September 2012
14:59:15 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV
Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be PROV ←
14:59:15 <Zakim> ok, pgroth, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pgroth, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started ←
14:59:16 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.315.330.aaaa ←
14:59:20 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
14:59:25 <pgroth> Scribe: Satya Sahoo
(Scribe set to Satya Sahoo)
14:59:36 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
14:59:36 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
14:59:37 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
14:59:44 <pgroth> Regrets: Simon Miles, James Cheney, Curt Tilmes, Khalid Belhajjame, Graham Klyne
14:59:51 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public
Paul Groth: rrsagent, make logs public ←
15:00:42 <pgroth> Topic: Admin
15:01:32 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-09-06
Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-09-06 ←
15:01:37 <satya> Paul: Agenda items: updates on F2F, PROV-O admin issues, outstanding issues, and implementation reports
Paul Groth: Agenda items: updates on F2F, PROV-O admin issues, outstanding issues, and implementation reports ←
15:01:39 <pgroth> Minutes of the September 6, 2012 Telecon
Paul Groth: Minutes of the September 6, 2012 Telecon ←
15:01:52 <satya> +1
+1 ←
15:01:58 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
15:02:08 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.818.731.aabb ←
15:02:51 <pgroth> accepted: Minutes of the September 6, 2012 Telecon
RESOLVED: Minutes of the September 6, 2012 Telecon ←
15:03:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:03:16 <jun> zakim, IPcaller is me
Jun Zhao: zakim, IPcaller is me ←
15:03:22 <Zakim> +jun; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jun; got it ←
15:03:27 <satya> Paul: Open action on Paulo, Paul still open
Paul Groth: Open action on Paulo, Paul still open ←
15:04:11 <satya> Paul: Action item regarding XML schema definition
Paul Groth: Action item regarding XML schema definition ←
15:04:13 <Zakim> +??P8
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8 ←
15:04:23 <satya> Hook: Completed the XSD
15:04:29 <satya> Paul: Action item on Hook closed
Paul Groth: Action item on Hook closed ←
15:04:52 <pgroth> Topic: F2F4
Summary: The group was referred to the wiki page on the 4th face-to-face meeting. All members were encouraged to indicate their attendance either in-person or on the phone.
<pgroth> Summary: The group was referred to the wiki page on the 4th face-to-face meeting. All members were encouraged to indicate their attendance either in-person or on the phone.
15:04:52 <satya> Paul: Please sign up for scribe
Paul Groth: Please sign up for scribe ←
15:04:58 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F4
Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F4 ←
15:05:04 <satya> Paul: Next agenda item regarding 4th F2F
Paul Groth: Next agenda item regarding 4th F2F ←
15:05:20 <Zakim> +??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←
15:05:21 <satya> Paul: Please sign for the F2F either remotely or in person
Paul Groth: Please sign for the F2F either remotely or in person ←
15:05:28 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:05:34 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
15:05:35 <satya> Paul: Question regarding F2F?
Paul Groth: Question regarding F2F? ←
15:05:38 <pgroth> Topic: Prov-o telcon
<pgroth> The group was informed that prov-o discussions would be folded into the main telcon and that the Monday telcon time slot was available for other discussions. It was suggested that the prov xml group could use the slot.
Paul Groth: The group was informed that prov-o discussions would be folded into the main telcon and that the Monday telcon time slot was available for other discussions. It was suggested that the prov xml group could use the slot. ←
15:05:51 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:05:54 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
15:05:56 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:06:01 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:06:16 <satya> Paul: PROV-O telcon was important for development of the ontology, currently responding to the comments
Paul Groth: PROV-O telcon was important for development of the ontology, currently responding to the comments ←
15:06:29 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:06:44 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:06:45 <Luc> q+ to suggest prov-xml team could use the prov-o slot
Luc Moreau: q+ to suggest prov-xml team could use the prov-o slot ←
15:06:46 <satya> Paul: Discussed with prov-o team to roll in the prov-o discussion items into the regular PROV call
Paul Groth: Discussed with prov-o team to roll in the prov-o discussion items into the regular PROV call ←
15:06:50 <pgroth> ack Luc
Paul Groth: ack Luc ←
15:06:50 <Zakim> Luc, you wanted to suggest prov-xml team could use the prov-o slot
Zakim IRC Bot: Luc, you wanted to suggest prov-xml team could use the prov-o slot ←
15:07:17 <Zakim> +TomDN
Zakim IRC Bot: +TomDN ←
15:07:19 <satya> Luc: PROV-XML team may want to use the PROV-O time slot on Monday for discussion
Luc Moreau: PROV-XML team may want to use the PROV-O time slot on Monday for discussion ←
15:07:22 <zednik> q+
Stephan Zednik: q+ ←
15:07:23 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:07:29 <pgroth> ack zednik
Paul Groth: ack zednik ←
15:07:44 <satya> zednik: Agree if rest of the PROV-XML team agrees
Stephan Zednik: Agree if rest of the PROV-XML team agrees ←
15:07:51 <TomDN> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Tom De Nies: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:07:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Satya_Sahoo, Luc, ??P2, +1.315.330.aaaa, Ivan, +1.818.731.aabb, jun, ??P8, ??P5, MacTed (muted), Luc., TomDN
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Satya_Sahoo, Luc, ??P2, +1.315.330.aaaa, Ivan, +1.818.731.aabb, jun, ??P8, ??P5, MacTed (muted), Luc., TomDN ←
15:07:57 <hook> sounds good
15:08:05 <TomDN> Zakim, Samcoppens is with TomDN
Tom De Nies: Zakim, Samcoppens is with TomDN ←
15:08:05 <Zakim> +Samcoppens; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Samcoppens; got it ←
15:08:11 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:08:23 <satya> Paul: PROV-XML will use the monday timeslot for meetings
Paul Groth: PROV-XML will use the monday timeslot for meetings ←
15:08:26 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-Constraints Dissemination
Summary: The prov-constraints document has gone last call and the editor's posted an associated blog entry. The group was encouraged to spread the information and encourage reviews. The following people agreed to send emails. Ivan to the semweb list. Satya to the HCLS mailing list. Luc to the provenance-challenge mailing list. James would be asked to send the news to the Dagstuhl mailing list.
<pgroth> Summary: The prov-constraints document has gone last call and the editor's posted an associated blog entry. The group was encouraged to spread the information and encourage reviews. The following people agreed to send emails. Ivan to the semweb list. Satya to the HCLS mailing list. Luc to the provenance-challenge mailing list. James would be asked to send the news to the Dagstuhl mailing list.
15:08:27 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me
Tom De Nies: Zakim, mute me ←
15:08:27 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: TomDN should now be muted ←
15:08:35 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-constraints/
Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-constraints/ ←
15:08:40 <satya> Paul: Next agenda item: PROV constraints dissemination
Paul Groth: Next agenda item: PROV constraints dissemination ←
15:08:57 <satya> Paul: Congrats to the editors of PROV constraints!
Paul Groth: Congrats to the editors of PROV constraints! ←
15:09:19 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2012/09/12/last-call-constraints-of-the-provenance-data-model-2/
Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2012/09/12/last-call-constraints-of-the-provenance-data-model-2/ ←
15:09:37 <satya> Paul: Paolo, Luc created a blog post describing the PROV constraints
Paul Groth: Paolo, Luc created a blog post describing the PROV constraints ←
15:09:48 <satya> Paul: Please share the blog with others
Paul Groth: Please share the blog with others ←
15:10:05 <satya> Paul: Can someone volunteer to share this with various maling lists
Paul Groth: Can someone volunteer to share this with various maling lists ←
15:10:26 <satya> maling/mailing
maling/mailing ←
15:10:30 <pgroth> ivan to semweb list
Paul Groth: ivan to semweb list ←
15:10:53 <pgroth> satya to hclrs
Paul Groth: satya to hclrs ←
15:11:23 <satya> Paul: Luc can share with provenance challenge
Paul Groth: Luc can share with provenance challenge ←
15:11:23 <pgroth> luc provenance challenge mailing list
Paul Groth: luc provenance challenge mailing list ←
15:11:46 <satya> Paul: James to share with Dagstuhl mailing list
Paul Groth: James to share with Dagstuhl mailing list ←
15:11:46 <pgroth> james cheney to mailing list
Paul Groth: james cheney to mailing list ←
15:11:48 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:12:21 <pgroth> Topic: Resolving Issues
Summary: Luc went through a list of issues raised externally on the PROV-DM and received feedback on his suggest replies. The group agreed to review his proposed replies by Tuesday of the following week. If there were no objections these would be sent as responses on behalf of the group.
<pgroth> Summary: Luc went through a list of issues raised externally on the PROV-DM and received feedback on his suggest replies. The group agreed to review his proposed replies by Tuesday of the following week. If there were no objections these would be sent as responses on behalf of the group.
15:12:57 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy? ←
15:12:57 <satya> Paul: Issues raised for PROV-DM (primarily from Robert@Mayo clinic)
Paul Groth: Issues raised for PROV-DM (primarily from Robert@Mayo clinic) ←
15:13:02 <pgroth> Zakim, who's noisy
Paul Groth: Zakim, who's noisy ←
15:13:02 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's noisy', pgroth
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who's noisy', pgroth ←
15:13:10 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luc (69%), ??P2 (9%), Ivan (9%)
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luc (69%), ??P2 (9%), Ivan (9%) ←
15:13:11 <pgroth> zakim, who is noisy?
Paul Groth: zakim, who is noisy? ←
15:13:17 <ivan> zakim, mute me
Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me ←
15:13:17 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted ←
15:13:27 <Zakim> pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds ←
15:13:29 <satya> Luc: Reviewed the feedback for comments that require changes to the data model
Luc Moreau: Reviewed the feedback for comments that require changes to the data model ←
15:13:41 <satya> Luc: Drafted responses to these specific issues
Luc Moreau: Drafted responses to these specific issues ←
15:14:00 <satya> Luc: ISSUE 532 regarding roles, to allow roles for more relations
Luc Moreau: ISSUE-532 regarding roles, to allow roles for more relations ←
15:14:17 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Sep/0141.html
Luc Moreau: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Sep/0141.html ←
15:14:31 <satya> Luc: WG decided against this as there was no satisfactory resolution
Luc Moreau: WG decided against this as there was no satisfactory resolution ←
15:15:24 <satya> Luc: Protocol to follow to resolve these issues - vote or put it up for discussion on a wiki page
Luc Moreau: Protocol to follow to resolve these issues - vote or put it up for discussion on a wiki page ←
15:15:53 <ivan> yes
Ivan Herman: yes ←
15:15:58 <satya> Paul: If there are no objections raised by a particular date, then confirm with the person who raised the issue
Paul Groth: If there are no objections raised by a particular date, then confirm with the person who raised the issue ←
15:16:14 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
Ivan Herman: zakim, unmute me ←
15:16:14 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should no longer be muted ←
15:17:22 <satya> Ivan: It is good to have a confirmation to the proposed solution, but it may not be always possible
Ivan Herman: It is good to have a confirmation to the proposed solution, but it may not be always possible ←
15:17:43 <Zakim> +??P10
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10 ←
15:18:57 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:19:15 <satya> Paul: Let the WG consider the response by Monday and then get back to the person raising the issue
Paul Groth: Let the WG consider the response by Monday and then get back to the person raising the issue ←
15:19:28 <satya> Luc: Where should the response be posted?
Luc Moreau: Where should the response be posted? ←
15:19:37 <satya> Ivan: In the tracker
Ivan Herman: In the tracker ←
15:20:24 <satya> Ivan: The response should include links to the person's confirmation
Ivan Herman: The response should include links to the person's confirmation ←
15:20:49 <satya> Luc: ISSUE 525: Specialization and Alternate to be subtype of Influence
Luc Moreau: ISSUE-525: Specialization and Alternate to be subtype of Influence ←
15:21:15 <satya> Luc: WG resolution on this issue
Luc Moreau: WG resolution on this issue ←
15:21:29 <pgroth> note, working group members should respond to these suggestions by monday
Paul Groth: note, working group members should respond to these suggestions by monday ←
15:21:37 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:21:40 <pgroth> q+
Paul Groth: q+ ←
15:21:45 <satya> Luc: Questions/comments on ISSUE 525
Luc Moreau: Questions/comments on ISSUE-525 ←
15:22:31 <satya> Luc: Include attributes for these relations, create patterns similar to the relations
Luc Moreau: Include attributes for these relations, create patterns similar to the relations ←
15:22:50 <satya> Luc: There was decision against this approach
Luc Moreau: There was decision against this approach ←
15:22:50 <pgroth> ack pgroth
Paul Groth: ack pgroth ←
15:23:07 <satya> Paul: Should include this discussion in the response
Paul Groth: Should include this discussion in the response ←
15:23:49 <satya> Paul: Add a section to the wiki page for the issue to include updates
Paul Groth: Add a section to the wiki page for the issue to include updates ←
15:23:56 <pgroth> ivan?
Paul Groth: ivan? ←
15:24:42 <satya> Luc: ISSUE 507: wasAssociatedWith in DM, PROV-O includes this property and also an inverse relation - to include the inverse relation in DM
Luc Moreau: ISSUE-507: wasAssociatedWith in DM, PROV-O includes this property and also an inverse relation - to include the inverse relation in DM ←
15:25:03 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:25:29 <pgroth> ack ivan
Paul Groth: ack ivan ←
15:25:31 <satya> Luc: In relational design, we do not include inverse relations. PROV-O includes inverse relations due to OWL/RDF
Luc Moreau: In relational design, we do not include inverse relations. PROV-O includes inverse relations due to OWL/RDF ←
15:25:47 <MacTed> q+
Ted Thibodeau: q+ ←
15:25:55 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:25:55 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
15:26:03 <satya> Ivan: Understands Luc's point, Is it necessary to have an inverse relation?
Ivan Herman: Understands Luc's point, Is it necessary to have an inverse relation? ←
15:26:08 <Zakim> +??P15
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15 ←
15:26:15 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P15 is me
Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P15 is me ←
15:26:15 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it ←
15:26:22 <zednik> q+
Stephan Zednik: q+ ←
15:26:37 <satya> Ivan: It is usual to have this pattern in an ontology, but it may lead to complexity
Ivan Herman: It is usual to have this pattern in an ontology, but it may lead to complexity ←
15:26:42 <pgroth> ack MacTed
Paul Groth: ack MacTed ←
15:27:06 <satya> Mac: The notion of what is a relation and what is its inverse is arbitrary
Ted Thibodeau: The notion of what is a relation and what is its inverse is arbitrary ←
15:27:07 <pgroth> ack zednik
Paul Groth: ack zednik ←
15:27:16 <satya> Mac: So, both should be there
Ted Thibodeau: So, both should be there ←
15:28:04 <satya> Stephen: There was a lot of discussion in PROV-O regarding this, it is currently a suggestion for the inverse properties (to ensure consistent naming)
Stephen Cresswell: There was a lot of discussion in PROV-O regarding this, it is currently a suggestion for the inverse properties (to ensure consistent naming) ←
15:28:19 <satya> Stephen: The inverse is not always explicitly specified
Stephen Cresswell: The inverse is not always explicitly specified ←
15:28:44 <satya> Ivan: Not sure what does it mean - are they part of the OWL file?
Ivan Herman: Not sure what does it mean - are they part of the OWL file? ←
15:29:02 <satya> Tim: They are not, the inverse are in a separate OWL file
Timothy Lebo: They are not, the inverse are in a separate OWL file ←
15:29:32 <satya> Ivan: Not convinced, not having them at all is a better solution
Ivan Herman: Not convinced, not having them at all is a better solution ←
15:30:10 <satya> Tim: PROV-O tried to reach a compromise and the current solution is after long discussion
Timothy Lebo: PROV-O tried to reach a compromise and the current solution is after long discussion ←
15:30:49 <satya> Luc: PROV-O does not include inverse relation, hence it is normative - so PROV-O and DM are aligned
Luc Moreau: PROV-O does not include inverse relation, hence it is normative - so PROV-O and DM are aligned ←
15:30:56 <satya> Luc: Will rephrase the answer
Luc Moreau: Will rephrase the answer ←
15:30:58 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:31:04 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/504
Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/504 ←
15:31:12 <ivan> issue-504?
15:31:12 <trackbot> ISSUE-504 -- Data Model Section 2.2.2 -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-504 -- Data Model Section 2.2.2 -- open ←
15:31:12 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/504
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/504 ←
15:31:20 <satya> Luc: ISSUE-504, regarding bundles and collections
Luc Moreau: ISSUE-504, regarding bundles and collections ←
15:32:48 <satya> Luc: WG has discussed this issue on multiple points - WG resolved not to have identifiers on provenance assertions, bundles allow assertion of identifiers and make statements about bundles
Luc Moreau: WG has discussed this issue on multiple points - WG resolved not to have identifiers on provenance assertions, bundles allow assertion of identifiers and make statements about bundles ←
15:33:11 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:33:12 <satya> Luc: WG considers this as a good compromise
Luc Moreau: WG considers this as a good compromise ←
15:33:44 <satya> Paul: Include a change in definition of collections?
Paul Groth: Include a change in definition of collections? ←
15:34:33 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/503
Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/503 ←
15:34:55 <satya> Luc: ISSUE 503: regarding agents that adopt a plan
Luc Moreau: ISSUE-503: regarding agents that adopt a plan ←
15:35:35 <satya> Luc: wasAdoptedBy should be a new definition in PROV to allow plan to be assigned to agent without use of activity
Luc Moreau: wasAdoptedBy should be a new definition in PROV to allow plan to be assigned to agent without use of activity ←
15:35:42 <ivan> zakim, mute me
Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me ←
15:35:42 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted ←
15:36:05 <satya> Luc: Responded to Paul separately, not sure what is to be done here
Luc Moreau: Responded to Paul separately, not sure what is to be done here ←
15:36:22 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:36:32 <dgarijo> +q
Daniel Garijo: +q ←
15:36:41 <pgroth> ack dgarijo
Paul Groth: ack dgarijo ←
15:37:03 <satya> dgarijo: Does he have a use case that would justify the introduction of this new relation?
Daniel Garijo: Does he have a use case that would justify the introduction of this new relation? ←
15:37:15 <satya> Luc: Not to my knowledge
Luc Moreau: Not to my knowledge ←
15:37:23 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:37:23 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:37:37 <satya> dgarijo: We have enough relations to cover this use, so would not vote to have a new relation
Daniel Garijo: We have enough relations to cover this use, so would not vote to have a new relation ←
15:37:57 <dgarijo> that makes sense
Daniel Garijo: that makes sense ←
15:38:06 <satya> Paul: Is this relation an easy extension to existing PROV model?
Paul Groth: Is this relation an easy extension to existing PROV model? ←
15:38:40 <satya> Tim: Would it be a property chain or qualified association based rule?
Timothy Lebo: Would it be a property chain or qualified association based rule? ←
15:39:04 <satya> Paul: This suggestion can be included in the response
Paul Groth: This suggestion can be included in the response ←
15:40:16 <satya> Luc: Will edit the wiki page tomorrow and send mail - give time till Tuesday
Luc Moreau: Will edit the wiki page tomorrow and send mail - give time till Tuesday ←
15:40:35 <satya> Paul: Any objections to have responses to this discussion by Tuesday?
Paul Groth: Any objections to have responses to this discussion by Tuesday? ←
15:41:03 <pgroth> accepted: to have responses to the issues in the agenda by tuesday
RESOLVED: to have responses to the issues in the agenda by tuesday ←
15:41:20 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:41:57 <pgroth> Topic: Subactivity
Summary: The group discussed ISSUE-447 on whether to introduce subactivity based on external feedback. The resolution was to introduce a FAQ that would suggest the use of dcterms:hasPart but to leave this out of any official specs. Paul agreed to start this FAQ on the Semantic Web Activity wiki so that it could be updated in the future.
<pgroth> Summary: The group discussed ISSUE-447 on whether to introduce subactivity based on external feedback. The resolution was to introduce a FAQ that would suggest the use of dcterms:hasPart but to leave this out of any official specs. Paul agreed to start this FAQ on the Semantic Web Activity wiki so that it could be updated in the future.
15:41:58 <satya> Paul: Next agenda item is discussion about subactivity
Paul Groth: Next agenda item is discussion about subactivity ←
15:42:05 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/447
Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/447 ←
15:42:32 <satya> Paul: ISSUE 447, several request to introduce a sub activity relation in the model followed by mailing list discussion
Paul Groth: ISSUE-447, several request to introduce a sub activity relation in the model followed by mailing list discussion ←
15:43:38 <satya> Paul: It may be a good idea according to some members, but others have reservations that introduction of the new relation will have repurcussions across model and constrains (some of which may have not be considered at all)
Paul Groth: It may be a good idea according to some members, but others have reservations that introduction of the new relation will have repurcussions across model and constrains (some of which may have not be considered at all) ←
15:43:57 <satya> Paul: One proposed option is use dc partOf relation
Paul Groth: One proposed option is use dc partOf relation ←
15:44:19 <satya> constrains/constraints
constrains/constraints ←
15:44:24 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:44:24 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:44:32 <dgarijo> I think we should go for dcterms:hasPart.
Daniel Garijo: I think we should go for dcterms:hasPart. ←
15:44:35 <satya> Paul: Whether to include or leave out this?
Paul Groth: Whether to include or leave out this? ←
15:44:41 <zednik> q+
Stephan Zednik: q+ ←
15:44:41 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
15:44:44 <satya> @Daniel +1
@Daniel +1 ←
15:45:22 <Paolo> I expressed my view on the list -- I'd rather leave it out of the model
Paolo Missier: I expressed my view on the list -- I'd rather leave it out of the model ←
15:45:34 <pgroth> ack zednik
Paul Groth: ack zednik ←
15:45:35 <satya> zednik: Can this be included in the best practices document? But not include this in specs
Stephan Zednik: Can this be included in the best practices document? But not include this in specs ←
15:45:41 <pgroth> ack Luc
Paul Groth: ack Luc ←
15:46:08 <satya> Luc: Daniel please clarify proposed use of dcterms:hasPart
Luc Moreau: Daniel please clarify proposed use of dcterms:hasPart ←
15:46:20 <pgroth> +q
Paul Groth: +q ←
15:47:12 <satya> dgarijo: Keen to have it in a document, but not in ontology - is there a proposal for a best practices document as it would allow inclusion of some issues currently pending in PROV-O also
Daniel Garijo: Keen to have it in a document, but not in ontology - is there a proposal for a best practices document as it would allow inclusion of some issues currently pending in PROV-O also ←
15:47:52 <dgarijo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/tip/bestpractices/BestPractices.html
Daniel Garijo: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/tip/bestpractices/BestPractices.html ←
15:47:52 <Luc> @zednik: should it be an FAQ?
Luc Moreau: @zednik: should it be an FAQ? ←
15:47:59 <satya> zednik: (answering to Luc) Last F2F discussed creation of best practices document - it will be a note and not a spec
Stephan Zednik: (answering to Luc) Last F2F discussed creation of best practices document - it will be a note and not a spec ←
15:48:18 <satya> zednik: It will be a kind of FAQ, maybe part of FAQ
Stephan Zednik: It will be a kind of FAQ, maybe part of FAQ ←
15:48:30 <MacTed> +1 "this is a common need; here's how best to satisfy it with what we've done"
Ted Thibodeau: +1 "this is a common need; here's how best to satisfy it with what we've done" ←
15:49:17 <Luc> proposed: subactivity relation will not be included in normative documents, but instead would be described in light weight document, such as FAQ/best practice
PROPOSED: subactivity relation will not be included in normative documents, but instead would be described in light weight document, such as FAQ/best practice ←
15:49:19 <satya> Paul: We have identified the DC document as a best practice document, strongly support a FAQ document
Paul Groth: We have identified the DC document as a best practice document, strongly support a FAQ document ←
15:49:57 <satya> Paul: FAQ will sidestep the complications associated with a spec, so this FAQ can also be updated
Paul Groth: FAQ will sidestep the complications associated with a spec, so this FAQ can also be updated ←
15:50:00 <Luc> proposed: subactivity relation will not be included in normative documents, but instead would be described in light weight document, such as FAQ/best practice
PROPOSED: subactivity relation will not be included in normative documents, but instead would be described in light weight document, such as FAQ/best practice ←
15:50:12 <dgarijo> +1
Daniel Garijo: +1 ←
15:50:24 <zednik> +1
Stephan Zednik: +1 ←
15:50:29 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
15:50:31 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:50:32 <satya> +1
+1 ←
15:50:34 <SamCoppens> +1
Sam Coppens: +1 ←
15:50:34 <TomDN> +1
Tom De Nies: +1 ←
15:50:39 <Paolo> +1
Paolo Missier: +1 ←
15:50:41 <hook> +1
15:50:55 <satya> Tim: +1
Timothy Lebo: +1 ←
15:50:57 <jun> +1
15:51:06 <Dong> +1
Trung Huynh: +1 ←
15:51:23 <Luc> accepted: subactivity relation will not be included in normative documents, but instead would be described in light weight document, such as FAQ/best practice
RESOLVED: subactivity relation will not be included in normative documents, but instead would be described in light weight document, such as FAQ/best practice ←
15:51:51 <satya> Paul: Will setup FAQ that can also be referenced when responding to feedback
Paul Groth: Will setup FAQ that can also be referenced when responding to feedback ←
15:51:56 <pgroth> action: setup faq
ACTION: setup faq ←
15:51:56 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - setup
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - setup ←
15:52:00 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:52:04 <ivan> ack ivan
Ivan Herman: ack ivan ←
15:52:11 <pgroth> action: pgroth setup faq
ACTION: pgroth setup faq ←
15:52:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-115 - Setup faq [on Paul Groth - due 2012-09-20].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-115 - Setup faq [on Paul Groth - due 2012-09-20]. ←
15:52:16 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/Main_Page
Ivan Herman: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/Main_Page ←
15:52:16 <pgroth> ack pgroth
Paul Groth: ack pgroth ←
15:52:18 <pgroth> ack ivan
Paul Groth: ack ivan ←
15:53:14 <satya> Ivan: There is a SW activity wiki, which can be used after WG formally closes - create a separate section on the wiki that can be continously used
Ivan Herman: There is a SW activity wiki, which can be used after WG formally closes - create a separate section on the wiki that can be continously used ←
15:53:23 <satya> Paul: Nice idea
Paul Groth: Nice idea ←
15:53:45 <ivan> zakim, mute me
Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me ←
15:53:45 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted ←
15:53:49 <pgroth> Topic: Implementation Report
Summary: Paul presented an structure for the implementation report. Stephan has produced an associated questionnaire that allows implementers to easily report their information. The group discussed the need for test cases. The group agreed that example test cases were good but that producing an actual test harness is probably not feasible.
<pgroth> Summary: Paul presented an structure for the implementation report. Stephan has produced an associated questionnaire that allows implementers to easily report their information. The group discussed the need for test cases. The group agreed that example test cases were good but that producing an actual test harness is probably not feasible.
15:53:51 <satya> Paul: Will set up a PROV subsection on SW wiki
Paul Groth: Will set up a PROV subsection on SW wiki ←
15:53:55 <pgroth> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/reports/prov-implementations.html
Paul Groth: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/reports/prov-implementations.html ←
15:54:13 <satya> Paul: Thanks to Dong and Stephan to creating the implementation document
Paul Groth: Thanks to Dong and Stephan to creating the implementation document ←
15:54:45 <satya> Paul: The skeleton of the document mirrors Stephan's questionnaire
Paul Groth: The skeleton of the document mirrors Stephan's questionnaire ←
15:55:18 <satya> Paul: Reviewing the implementation document
Paul Groth: Reviewing the implementation document ←
15:57:14 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:57:21 <satya> Paul: Comments/questions about the structure of the implementation document?
Paul Groth: Comments/questions about the structure of the implementation document? ←
15:57:24 <ivan> (looked fine to me...)
Ivan Herman: (looked fine to me...) ←
15:58:01 <satya> Tim: Are there instructions to allow responders to add to this document?
Timothy Lebo: Are there instructions to allow responders to add to this document? ←
15:58:09 <satya> Paul: Part of the questionnaire
Paul Groth: Part of the questionnaire ←
15:58:29 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:58:38 <satya> zednik: Questionnaire is a spreadsheet so should be easy to map to document
Stephan Zednik: Questionnaire is a spreadsheet so should be easy to map to document ←
15:59:21 <satya> Paul: Have a question about constraint section, it currently does not have a test case for implementation of the constraints
Paul Groth: Have a question about constraint section, it currently does not have a test case for implementation of the constraints ←
15:59:48 <satya> Paul: Should there be a test harness for this - concern that this will require significant work
Paul Groth: Should there be a test harness for this - concern that this will require significant work ←
15:59:50 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:00:06 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
Ivan Herman: zakim, unmute me ←
16:00:06 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should no longer be muted ←
16:00:08 <satya> Paul: Question is whether it is needed and who will do it?
Paul Groth: Question is whether it is needed and who will do it? ←
16:00:11 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
16:00:32 <satya> Ivan: Not sure about test case environment
Ivan Herman: Not sure about test case environment ←
16:01:08 <satya> Paul: This environment allows testing a set of provenance assertions to be valid or invalid
Paul Groth: This environment allows testing a set of provenance assertions to be valid or invalid ←
16:01:09 <Zakim> - +1.818.731.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.818.731.aabb ←
16:01:40 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.818.731.aacc ←
16:01:58 <satya> Ivan: Nice to have an environment to make testing easier, but making a complete test environment requires lot of effort so not sure it can be done
Ivan Herman: Nice to have an environment to make testing easier, but making a complete test environment requires lot of effort so not sure it can be done ←
16:03:00 <satya> Luc: I am implementing a validator and it involves lot of work - tests unification algorithm and requires lot of test cases (excludes temporal constraints)
Luc Moreau: I am implementing a validator and it involves lot of work - tests unification algorithm and requires lot of test cases (excludes temporal constraints) ←
16:03:35 <satya> Luc: Does not guarantee complete coverage and not sure when a stable state test cases can be shared with rest of WG
Luc Moreau: Does not guarantee complete coverage and not sure when a stable state test cases can be shared with rest of WG ←
16:04:19 <satya> Luc: So, not sure how the test cases can be re-used by others
Luc Moreau: So, not sure how the test cases can be re-used by others ←
16:04:44 <satya> Luc: May require development of a common API, so not an easy task
Luc Moreau: May require development of a common API, so not an easy task ←
16:05:09 <Dong> @zednik PROV-CONSTRAINTS now has 58 in total, I think the questionnaire still uses the constraints from the previous version of the document.
Trung Huynh: @zednik PROV-CONSTRAINTS now has 58 in total, I think the questionnaire still uses the constraints from the previous version of the document. ←
16:05:23 <satya> @Paul: sorry, I have to leave now can someone take over as scribe
@Paul: sorry, I have to leave now can someone take over as scribe ←
16:05:29 <pgroth> ok
Paul Groth: ok ←
16:05:29 <zednik> @dong, thanks I'll look into that
Stephan Zednik: @dong, thanks I'll look into that ←
16:05:34 <pgroth> can someone scribe?
Paul Groth: can someone scribe? ←
16:05:43 <dgarijo> I can
Daniel Garijo: I can ←
16:05:45 <pgroth> thanks
Paul Groth: thanks ←
16:05:52 <pgroth> scribe: dgarijo
(Scribe set to Daniel Garijo)
16:05:52 <satya> thanks Dani!
Satya Sahoo: thanks Dani! ←
16:06:10 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo
Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo ←
16:06:19 <dgarijo> Ivan: we need test cases when we can infer additional things. If it can be automatized, good.
Ivan Herman: we need test cases when we can infer additional things. If it can be automatized, good. ←
16:07:03 <dgarijo> Luc: the complete normal form is not necessarily represented in Prov.
Luc Moreau: the complete normal form is not necessarily represented in Prov. ←
16:07:04 <Zakim> -??P10
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P10 ←
16:07:24 <dgarijo> Ivan: that is a lot of work. This formats may have their own live after the group finishes
Ivan Herman: that is a lot of work. This formats may have their own live after the group finishes ←
16:08:00 <dgarijo> Paul: even if we divide ourselves, we can't guarantee complete cover
Paul Groth: even if we divide ourselves, we can't guarantee complete cover ←
16:08:58 <stain> hm, how 10 minuets becomes an hour.. I missed the whole thing!
Stian Soiland-Reyes: hm, how 10 minuets becomes an hour.. I missed the whole thing! ←
16:09:00 <dgarijo> Ivan: that's different. Test cases are never 100% complete (corner cases not covered). It should be possible to come up with a collection of test cases that the group supports. If not, we have a problem
Ivan Herman: that's different. Test cases are never 100% complete (corner cases not covered). It should be possible to come up with a collection of test cases that the group supports. If not, we have a problem ←
16:09:30 <stain> is it still going on? Where in the agenda are we?
Stian Soiland-Reyes: is it still going on? Where in the agenda are we? ←
16:09:45 <dgarijo> ... everybody will have to have his own test cases and be able to report them back to us
... everybody will have to have his own test cases and be able to report them back to us ←
16:09:54 <dgarijo> @stain: we are discussing the implementation
@stain: we are discussing the implementation ←
16:09:57 <stephenc> SPARQL working group have a nice vocabulary for defining their test cases.
Stephen Cresswell: SPARQL working group have a nice vocabulary for defining their test cases. ←
16:10:27 <dgarijo> pgroth: the next thing to do is to find how to define the test cases.
Paul Groth: the next thing to do is to find how to define the test cases. ←
16:11:06 <dgarijo> Ivan: there are many other groups that have been doing this. It may be worth taking a look
Ivan Herman: there are many other groups that have been doing this. It may be worth taking a look ←
16:11:19 <Dong> ok, sure
Trung Huynh: ok, sure ←
16:11:24 <Zakim> +stainPhone
Zakim IRC Bot: +stainPhone ←
16:11:29 <dgarijo> pgroth: stephen, dong would you take a look at that?
Paul Groth: stephen, dong would you take a look at that? ←
16:11:34 <dgarijo> stephen: ok
Stephen Cresswell: ok ←
16:11:41 <dgarijo> pgroth: we are out of time
Paul Groth: we are out of time ←
16:11:53 <dgarijo> ... we'll catch up online
... we'll catch up online ←
16:11:59 <Zakim> - +1.315.330.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.315.330.aaaa ←
16:12:07 <Dong> thanks, bye
Trung Huynh: thanks, bye ←
16:12:11 <Zakim> -dgarijo
Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo ←
16:12:12 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
16:12:13 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
16:12:14 <Zakim> -Luc
Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc ←
16:12:14 <Zakim> -TomDN
Zakim IRC Bot: -TomDN ←
16:12:15 <Zakim> - +1.818.731.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.818.731.aacc ←
16:12:15 <Zakim> -??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P2 ←
16:12:18 <Zakim> -Luc
Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc ←
16:12:20 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public
Paul Groth: rrsagent, set log public ←
16:12:22 <Zakim> -stainPhone
Zakim IRC Bot: -stainPhone ←
16:12:26 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes
Paul Groth: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
16:12:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-minutes.html pgroth
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-minutes.html pgroth ←
16:12:30 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon
Paul Groth: trackbot, end telcon ←
16:12:30 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees ←
16:12:30 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Satya_Sahoo, Luc, +1.315.330.aaaa, Ivan, +1.818.731.aabb, jun, MacTed, TomDN, Samcoppens, dgarijo, +1.818.731.aacc, stainPhone
Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been Satya_Sahoo, Luc, +1.315.330.aaaa, Ivan, +1.818.731.aabb, jun, MacTed, TomDN, Samcoppens, dgarijo, +1.818.731.aacc, stainPhone ←
16:12:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes ←
16:12:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-minutes.html trackbot
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-minutes.html trackbot ←
16:12:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye ←
16:12:39 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-actions.rdf :
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-actions.rdf : ←
16:12:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: setup faq [1]
ACTION: setup faq [1] ←
16:12:39 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-irc#T15-51-56
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-irc#T15-51-56 ←
16:12:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: pgroth setup faq [2]
ACTION: pgroth setup faq [2] ←
16:12:39 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-irc#T15-52-11
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-irc#T15-52-11 ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#2) generated 2012-09-16 16:09:30 UTC by 'pgroth', comments: 'irc errors fixed and summaries added'