HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

22 Jun 2011

See also: IRC log


Janina, Eric_Carlson, John_Foliot, Jeanne, silvia, jallan, Kelly_Ford, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Judy
John_Foliot, jfoliot, jallan


<trackbot> Date: 22 June 2011

<jfoliot> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon

<jfoliot> Scribe: John_Foliot

<jfoliot> agenda: this

<jeanne> yes

<jfoliot> scribe: jfoliot

Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience

JS: we are trying to understand the user-experience and make sure we have appropriate code, practices, etc

implications of UI, HTMLspec, etc.

JS: explaining the visual layout of a page with multiple videos on them

user tabs through numerous selcetions and lands on a video

needs to query various bits of infomration

controls, video title, perhaps poster (with rich graphics or texts), etc.

JS: we have a proposed set of markup

<JAllan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0466.html

<video aria-describedby="this that">

<p id="this">The 2011 video John goes shopping</p>

<p id="that">Main actor John is seen pushing a shopping cart down the isle of a supermarket.</p>


<silvia> Here's a more in-depth example:

<silvia> <video poster="media/trust.png" controls

<silvia> aria-describedby="posteralt details">

<silvia> <source src="media/trust.mp4">

<silvia> <source src="media/trust.webm">

<silvia> <source src="media/trust.ogv">

<silvia> <div id="posteralt">

<silvia> The placeholder image shows a blue steamtrain and titles Trust by Domenic Marbaniang -

<silvia> 'It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man', Psalm 118:8.

<silvia> </div>

<silvia> </video>

<silvia> <div id="details">

<silvia> <p>Hindi Gospel song by Domenic Marbaniang, 2007</p>

<silvia> <p>Keywords: Hindi; Gospel; Christian; Pop; Prayer; Worship; Song; Surrender; Trust<p>

<silvia> </div>

EC: we do not all agree that this is the right way to mark this up. In fact I do not believe that the poster element needs a seperate description at all

the poster image could be either a seperate image or the first frame of the video file

it shouldn't be described seperately, it needs to be described as part of the video description

as well, for a sighted person, the poster is only shown until the video starts, and the onbly way to return to that image is to refresh page/screen

RS: we could specifically map a specific order of the 2 descriptions if both exist, but what happens if both don't exist?

KF: Can you redefine the 2 elements?

Why does the movie get a textual description that is not visible to sighted users?

EC: that is exactly the question

it is perfectly valid to have a video without a poster frame

<JAllan> +q to say what if poster contains text (rating, cost, explicit language warning, Flashing/blinking warning)

<richardschwerdtfe> ack

SP: explaining to group why we do not have a poster element

and why aria-describedby would be a better way

<richardschwerdtfe> :-)

JA: to recap what if there is an expicit warning label as the first frame?

the poster would be conveying important information, which needs to be conveyed

<Zakim> JAllan, you wanted to say what if poster contains text (rating, cost, explicit language warning, Flashing/blinking warning)

SP: this is why I had suggested a posteralt attribute as well

EC: nobody is suggesting that this is not important

if the information comes from a seperate file or first frame if it ismportant that it be read, it is equally important to be read no matter where it comes from

it is an important charicteristic of the video element

separating it from the other parst of the video doesn't make sense to me

KF the user experience - what I still hear coming through that the non-sighted user would ge more than the sighted user

<JAllan> jf: authoring issue. when there is a poster, describe picture, and include any text in the poster

<JAllan> jf: don't need to say title because it is referenced somewhere else

<Zakim> silvia, you wanted to reply to Eric: sometime things already are on the page, so can be linked, too

<JAllan> jf: video element has 2 attribute that point to elements 'video' and 'poster' that need video description

<JAllan> silvia: can be more that 2 elements

<JAllan> sylvia: why are we summarizing the video for the screen reader user when the sighted user gets no description

<JAllan> sylvia: need description of poster. judgement call of author of what to include, poster, summary of video, controls, participants, scenery

<JAllan> sylvia: happy for describedby, for all the functionality

JS: it's important that the author not provide *more* than the sighted user gets

if describing the poster it would be useful to know that this is what is being described

static images "rules" should remain, regardless of where the first frame on screen comes from

<JAllan> jf: ok with describedby. discussing describing video with others, there may be times to describe the video. must ensure a mechanism

<JAllan> jf: concern--if describedby. points to 2+ things, how does user know what all the verbiage means, since they are concatenated

<JAllan> janina: AT issue

<JAllan> rs: UA issue

<JAllan> jf: there is code for inserting a programmatic pause.

<JAllan> rs: could inject pauses.

<JAllan> ec: why do we need 2 separate elements with 2 descriptions

EC: can we explain why we need two seperate descriptions

<JAllan> kf: root problem, media has 2 elements only one is visible at a time

but isn't the root that what is being rendered on screen has "alt text"

<JAllan> jf: what is the right mechanizm to use to meet the user needs.

<JAllan> jf: do we agree that users may want short and long description for poster and video

<JAllan> sylvia: in the video and during the video can describe whatever is needed is audiodescription

<JAllan> sylvia: video does not start playing immediately. what is user experience. video on page and paused...something on the screen

<JAllan> sylvia: sometimes need a description of what is on the screen. this should be the only thing that is in the describedby.

<Zakim> silvia, you wanted to say that the verbiage as chosen by the author could provide information on what the text means, e.g. "the poster shows…" "the video contains..."

<kford> The paused case sounds really the same is general graphics on the web. Some authoris do a good job of alternatives, some do not.

<JAllan> sylvia: use video summary if no audiodescription in the video. verbiage as chosen by the author could provide information on what the text means, e.g. "the poster shows…" "the video contains..."

<JAllan> silvia: or could split the info into several elements. should be up to the author. teach them the right thing to do.

<JAllan> jb: we seem to be less clear on our discussion. only what is on screen needs description, or midway through movie paused need description

<JAllan> rs: have a short name and description in the a11y api

<JAllan> rs: do we really want to expand the number of elements/attributes in the api

<JAllan> kf: web page for movie theater. has movie posters to buy tickets, but doesn't launch movie. would this discussion any different?

<JAllan> jf: half right/wrong. appropriate alt for image is a bit off the mark. scenario...3 movies all with same poster but are chapter 1,2,3. same alt not appropriate

<JAllan> kf: other mechanisms to give that info to the user. static case doesn't sound different from image alt (good alt). still want longdesc.

<JAllan> kf: longdesc give me enough info to decide what to do.

<JAllan> jf: poster is an attribute. how to put alt on attribute????

<JAllan> jb: if we have a stronger case, then we need to bring it up again with stronger case to html5...new evidence!

<JAllan> lw: makes sense to make poster child of video. and alt goes on the poster.

<JAllan> scribe: jallan

rw: poster as optional child would that be ok

silva: most of the time, poster is first frame of video. so nothing to put in poster element

lw: static image, when separate needs alt

<richardschwerdtfe> BRB

jf: poster is the element. it is a thing with attributes. if separate image referenced by src with alt. if no source then uses first frame of parent video...and it gets the alt.

ja: +++!

<LJW> +1

kf: why doesn't what jf just said make sense. poster should be able to be a child element

<jfoliot> silvia, we can't hear you

sylvia: it could be an element to link to image resource. attribute does the same thing. htmlwg make the attribute. no problem with that.

<jfoliot> <video>

<jfoliot> <poster alt="image description">

<jfoliot> </video>

sylvia: regardless of source of the poster, need one mechanism to convey info to the user.

jf: poster as child is about semantics. poster talks about the poster in the dom

sylvia: don't understand

jf: need short/long description of video and poster

<richardschwerdtfe> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0031381/

jf: imdb 'gone with the wind' reads title, and description...what is the poster I am looking at.

sylvia: describedby put all the information necessary in it

jb: may need another call. need clarity for what we are trying to solve.

<kford> Do you all talk on what e-mail DL The task force or is there a media list specifically?

janina: come back again. most agree for next week.

<jfoliot> I want to thank Jim Allan for taking up the scribe duties - thanks man!

silvia: deadline for this issue...next week. navigation. there is an email thread. please comment.

Summary of Action Items

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Default Present: Janina, Eric_Carlson, John_Foliot, Jeanne, silvia, jallan, Kelly_Ford, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Judy
Present: Janina Eric_Carlson John_Foliot Jeanne silvia jallan Kelly_Ford Rich_Schwerdtfeger Judy
Found Date: 22 Jun 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/06/22-html-a11y-minutes.html
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