IRC log of html-a11y on 2011-06-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

21:33:09 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
21:33:09 [RRSAgent]
logging to
21:33:11 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
21:33:11 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-a11y
21:33:13 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
21:33:13 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
21:33:14 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
21:33:14 [trackbot]
Date: 22 June 2011
21:33:21 [jfoliot]
zakim, this is 2119
21:33:21 [Zakim]
ok, jfoliot; that matches WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM
21:33:35 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
21:33:35 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), jeanne
21:33:38 [jfoliot]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
21:33:40 [jfoliot]
21:33:42 [jfoliot]
21:33:44 [jfoliot]
agenda: this
21:33:45 [jfoliot]
agenda+Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience
21:33:47 [jfoliot]
agenda+Texted Descriptions: User Requirements Discussion
21:33:48 [jfoliot]
agenda+Hierarchical Navigation: Progress Checkin Actions Review
21:33:50 [jfoliot]
21:33:51 [jfoliot]
agenda+Other Business?
21:33:53 [jfoliot]
agenda+ be done
21:34:56 [silvia]
silvia has joined #html-a11y
21:35:42 [jeanne]
21:35:45 [jfoliot]
scribe: jfoliot
21:35:57 [Zakim]
21:36:40 [Zakim]
21:38:25 [richardschwerdtfe]
richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
21:38:37 [Zakim]
21:38:38 [Zakim]
21:39:00 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
21:39:00 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
21:39:07 [jfoliot]
zakim, [Microsoft] is Kelly ford
21:39:07 [Zakim]
I don't understand '[Microsoft] is Kelly ford', jfoliot
21:39:16 [JAllan]
JAllan has joined #html-a11y
21:39:33 [jeanne]
zakim, Microsoft is Kelly_Ford
21:39:33 [Zakim]
+Kelly_Ford; got it
21:39:38 [Zakim]
21:40:12 [jfoliot]
zakim, take up agendum 1
21:40:12 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience" taken up [from jfoliot]
21:40:40 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
21:40:40 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
21:41:24 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
21:41:24 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
21:42:03 [jfoliot]
JS: we are trying to understand the user-experience and make sure we have appropriate code, practices, etc
21:42:09 [kford]
kford has joined #html-a11y
21:42:17 [jfoliot]
implications of UI, HTMLspec, etc.
21:43:40 [jfoliot]
JS: explaining the visual layout of a page with multiple videos on them
21:43:55 [jfoliot]
user tabs through numerous selcetions and lands on a video
21:44:04 [jfoliot]
needs to query various bits of infomration
21:44:25 [jfoliot]
controls, video title, perhaps poster (with rich graphics or texts), etc.
21:44:50 [jfoliot]
JS: we have a proposed set of markup
21:45:02 [JAllan]
21:45:12 [jfoliot]
<video aria-describedby="this that">
21:45:14 [jfoliot]
<p id="this">The 2011 video John goes shopping</p>
21:45:15 [jfoliot]
<p id="that">Main actor John is seen pushing a shopping cart down the isle of a supermarket.</p>
21:45:17 [jfoliot]
21:46:18 [silvia]
Here's a more in-depth example:
21:46:22 [silvia]
<video poster="media/trust.png" controls
21:46:23 [silvia]
aria-describedby="posteralt details">
21:46:23 [silvia]
<source src="media/trust.mp4">
21:46:23 [silvia]
<source src="media/trust.webm">
21:46:23 [silvia]
<source src="media/trust.ogv">
21:46:23 [silvia]
21:46:25 [silvia]
<div id="posteralt">
21:46:27 [silvia]
The placeholder image shows a blue steamtrain and titles Trust by Domenic Marbaniang -
21:46:29 [silvia]
'It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man', Psalm 118:8.
21:46:31 [silvia]
21:46:34 [silvia]
21:46:36 [silvia]
<div id="details">
21:46:38 [silvia]
<p>Hindi Gospel song by Domenic Marbaniang, 2007</p>
21:46:39 [silvia]
<p>Keywords: Hindi; Gospel; Christian; Pop; Prayer; Worship; Song; Surrender; Trust<p>
21:46:41 [silvia]
21:46:53 [richardschwerdtfe]
21:49:31 [jfoliot]
ack rich
21:49:43 [silvia]
zakim, ack me
21:49:43 [Zakim]
unmuting silvia
21:49:44 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
21:51:35 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
21:51:35 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
21:51:41 [jfoliot]
EC: we do not all agree that this is the right way to mark this up. In fact I do not believe that the poster element needs a seperate description at all
21:51:58 [jfoliot]
the poster image could be either a seperate image or the first frame of the video file
21:52:18 [jfoliot]
it shouldn't be described seperately, it needs to be described as part of the video description
21:52:41 [richardschwerdtfe]
21:52:55 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
21:52:55 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
21:53:01 [jfoliot]
as well, for a sighted person, the poster is only shown until the video starts, and the onbly way to return to that image is to refresh page/screen
21:54:50 [kford]
21:55:06 [silvia]
21:55:46 [jfoliot]
RS: we could specifically map a specific order of the 2 descriptions if both exist, but what happens if both don't exist?
21:56:09 [Zakim]
21:56:56 [jfoliot]
KF: Can you redefine the 2 elements?
21:57:37 [jfoliot]
Why does the movie get a textual description that is not visible to sighted users?
21:57:46 [jfoliot]
EC: that is exactly the question
21:58:05 [jfoliot]
it is perfectly valid to have a video without a poster frame
21:58:28 [kford]
21:58:32 [JAllan]
+q to say what if poster contains text (rating, cost, explicit language warning, Flashing/blinking warning)
21:59:04 [jeanne]
q+ to say that I have seen posters with instructions or descriptions on them.
21:59:14 [kford]
21:59:19 [jeanne]
21:59:52 [richardschwerdtfe]
21:59:57 [richardschwerdtfe]
ack richardschwerdtfe
22:01:02 [jfoliot]
SP: explaining to group why we do not have a poster element
22:01:08 [richardschwerdtfe]
22:01:20 [jfoliot]
and why aria-describedby would be a better way
22:01:53 [richardschwerdtfe]
22:01:55 [silvia]
22:02:01 [richardschwerdtfe]
22:02:27 [jfoliot]
JA: to recap what if there is an expicit warning label as the first frame?
22:03:03 [jfoliot]
the poster would be conveying important information, which needs to be conveyed
22:03:29 [JAllan]
ack jallan
22:03:29 [Zakim]
JAllan, you wanted to say what if poster contains text (rating, cost, explicit language warning, Flashing/blinking warning)
22:03:36 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:03:36 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:03:55 [jfoliot]
SP: this is why I had suggested a posteralt attribute as well
22:03:57 [jfoliot]
EC: nobody is suggesting that this is not important
22:04:33 [jfoliot]
if the information comes from a seperate file or first frame if it ismportant that it be read, it is equally important to be read no matter where it comes from
22:04:47 [jfoliot]
it is an important charicteristic of the video element
22:05:08 [richardschwerdtfe]
22:05:11 [jfoliot]
separating it from the other parst of the video doesn't make sense to me
22:05:32 [richardschwerdtfe]
ack kford
22:05:57 [silvia]
q+ in reply to Eric: sometime things already are on the page, so can be linked, too
22:06:24 [jfoliot]
KF the user experience - what I still hear coming through that the non-sighted user would ge more than the sighted user
22:06:26 [silvia]
q+ to reply to Eric: sometime things already are on the page, so can be linked, too
22:08:09 [LJW]
LJW has joined #html-a11y
22:09:26 [richardschwerdtfe]
ack richardschwerdtfe
22:09:35 [kford]
22:11:28 [JAllan]
jf: authoring issue. when there is a poster, describe picture, and include any text in the poster
22:12:08 [JAllan]
jf: don't need to say title because it is referenced somewhere else
22:12:29 [silvia]
zakim, ack me
22:12:29 [Zakim]
unmuting silvia
22:12:30 [Zakim]
silvia, you wanted to reply to Eric: sometime things already are on the page, so can be linked, too
22:12:32 [Zakim]
I see Janina on the speaker queue
22:12:59 [JAllan]
jf: video element has 2 attribute that point to elements 'video' and 'poster' that need video description
22:13:19 [JAllan]
silvia: can be more that 2 elements
22:15:33 [JAllan]
sylvia: why are we summarizing the video for the screen reader user when the sighted user gets no description
22:15:47 [jfoliot]
22:15:51 [jfoliot]
22:15:58 [kford]
22:16:44 [JAllan]
sylvia: need description of poster. judgement call of author of what to include, poster, summary of video, controls, participants, scenery
22:16:58 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:16:58 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:17:01 [JAllan]
sylvia: happy for describedby, for all the functionality
22:17:02 [jfoliot]
ack janina
22:17:37 [jfoliot]
JS: it's important that the author not provide *more* than the sighted user gets
22:18:02 [Zakim]
22:18:33 [JAllan]
q+ to say what is mechanism for informing user of 2+ describedby and navigating them?
22:18:35 [jfoliot]
if describing the poster it would be useful to know that this is what is being described
22:19:02 [jfoliot]
sttaic images "rules" should remain, regardless of where the first frame on screen comes from
22:19:15 [jfoliot]
22:20:24 [JAllan]
jf: ok with describedby. discussing describing video with others, there may be times to describe the video. must ensure a mechanism
22:21:30 [JAllan]
jf: concern--if describedby. points to 2+ things, how does user know what all the verbiage means, since they are concatenated
22:21:35 [JAllan]
22:21:52 [JAllan]
janina: AT issue
22:22:01 [JAllan]
rs: UA issue
22:22:53 [JAllan]
jf: there is code for inserting a programmatic pause.
22:22:53 [silvia]
q+ to say that the verbiage as chosen by the author could provide information on what the text means, e.g. "the poster shows…" "the video contains..."
22:22:59 [jfoliot]
ack jf
22:23:19 [JAllan]
rs: could inject pauses.
22:23:39 [JAllan]
ec: why do we need 2 separate elements with 2 descriptions
22:24:16 [jfoliot]
EC: can we explain why we need two seperate descriptions
22:24:23 [JAllan]
kf: root problem, media has 2 elements only one is visible at a time
22:24:54 [jfoliot]
but isn't the root that what is being rendered on screen has "alt text"
22:25:57 [richardschwerdtfe]
22:26:39 [richardschwerdtfe]
ack kford
22:28:06 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:28:06 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:28:15 [JAllan]
jf: what is the right mechanizm to use to meet the user needs.
22:28:26 [Zakim]
22:28:40 [LJW]
22:28:50 [JAllan]
jf: do we agree that users may want short and long description for poster and video
22:28:53 [Zakim]
22:29:35 [JAllan]
sylvia: in the video and during the video can describe whatever is needed is audiodescription
22:30:17 [JAllan]
sylvia: video does not start playing immediately. what is user experience. video on page and paused...something on the screen
22:31:19 [JAllan]
sylvia: sometimes need a description of what is on the screen. this should be the only thing that is in the describedby.
22:31:32 [richardschwerdtfe]
22:31:40 [jfoliot]
ack sil
22:31:40 [Zakim]
silvia, you wanted to say that the verbiage as chosen by the author could provide information on what the text means, e.g. "the poster shows…" "the video contains..."
22:31:50 [kford]
The paused case sounds really the same is general graphics on the web. Some authoris do a good job of alternatives, some do not.
22:33:04 [JAllan]
sylvia: use video summary if no audiodescription in the video. verbiage as chosen by the author could provide information on what the text means, e.g. "the poster shows…" "the video contains..."
22:34:06 [JAllan]
silvia: or could split the info into several elements. should be up to the author. teach them the right thing to do.
22:34:16 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:34:16 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:35:06 [jfoliot]
zakim, who's making noise
22:35:06 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's making noise', jfoliot
22:35:14 [jfoliot]
zakim, who's making noise?
22:35:25 [Zakim]
jfoliot, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Janina (14%), John_Foliot (4%), Rich_Schwerdtfeger (36%), Judy (9%)
22:36:48 [richardschwerdtfe]
22:37:08 [jfoliot]
ack LJW
22:37:22 [jfoliot]
ack Rich
22:37:26 [JAllan]
jb: we seem to be less clear on our discussion. only what is on screen needs description, or midway through movie paused need description
22:38:00 [JAllan]
rs: have a short name and description in the a11y api
22:38:22 [kford]
22:38:30 [JAllan]
rs: do we really want to expand the number of elements/attributes in the api
22:39:39 [jfoliot]
ack kford
22:39:44 [JAllan]
kf: web page for movie theater. has movie posters to buy tickets, but doesn't launch movie. would this discussion any different?
22:40:57 [richardschwerdtfe]
22:41:19 [JAllan]
jf: half right/wrong. appropriate alt for image is a bit off the mark. scenario...3 movies all with same poster but are chapter 1,2,3. same alt not appropriate
22:42:38 [JAllan]
kf: other mechanisms to give that info to the user. static case doesn't sound different from image alt (good alt). still want longdesc.
22:43:11 [JAllan]
kf: longdesc give me enough info to decide what to do.
22:43:38 [JAllan]
jf: poster is an attribute. how to put alt on attribute????
22:43:55 [LJW]
22:44:28 [JAllan]
jb: if we have a stronger case, then we need to bring it up again with stronger case to evidence!
22:45:14 [richardschwerdtfe]
22:45:16 [JAllan]
lw: makes sense to make poster child of video. and alt goes on the poster.
22:45:25 [JAllan]
scribe: jallan
22:45:57 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:45:57 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:46:02 [JAllan]
rw: poster as optional child would that be ok
22:46:20 [jfoliot]
22:47:10 [JAllan]
silva: most of the time, poster is first frame of video. so nothing to put in poster element
22:47:18 [jfoliot]
ack LJW
22:47:22 [jfoliot]
ack rich
22:47:30 [kford]
22:48:06 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:48:06 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:48:17 [JAllan]
lw: static image, when separate needs alt
22:49:33 [richardschwerdtfe]
22:49:39 [JAllan]
jf: poster is the element. it is a thing with attributes. if separate image referenced by src with alt. if no source then uses first frame of parent video...and it gets the alt.
22:49:48 [JAllan]
ja: +++!
22:49:58 [LJW]
22:51:23 [silvia]
zakim, umute me
22:51:23 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'umute me', silvia
22:51:34 [JAllan]
kf: why doesn't what jf just said make sense. poster should be able to be a child element
22:52:04 [jfoliot]
silvia, we can't hear you
22:52:12 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:52:12 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:52:17 [kford]
zakim, unmute silvia
22:52:17 [Zakim]
silvia was not muted, kford
22:52:52 [kford]
22:53:08 [JAllan]
sylvia: it could be an element to link to image resource. attribute does the same thing. htmlwg make the attribute. no problem with that.
22:53:30 [jfoliot]
22:53:32 [jfoliot]
<poster alt="image description">
22:53:34 [jfoliot]
22:53:47 [LJW]
22:53:50 [jfoliot]
22:53:54 [JAllan]
...regardless of source of the poster, need one mechanism to convey info to the user.
22:54:42 [JAllan]
jf: poster as child is about semantics. poster talks about the poster in the dom
22:54:55 [JAllan]
sylvia: don't understand
22:55:21 [JAllan]
jf: need short/long description of video and poster
22:56:07 [richardschwerdtfe]
22:56:13 [JAllan] 'gone with the wind' reads title, and description...what is the poster I am looking at.
22:56:39 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:56:39 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:57:03 [JAllan]
sylvia: describedby put all the information necessary in it
22:57:29 [JAllan]
jb: may need another call. need clarity for what we are trying to solve.
22:57:45 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:57:45 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:57:47 [silvia]
22:58:01 [kford]
Do you all talk on what e-mail DL The task force or is there a media list specifically?
22:58:05 [JAllan]
janina: come back again. most agree for next week.
22:58:37 [jfoliot]
I want to thank Jim Allan for taking up the scribe duties - thanks man!
22:58:44 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:58:44 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:58:49 [JAllan]
silvia: deadline for this week. navigation. there is an email thread. please comment.
22:59:19 [Zakim]
23:00:16 [Zakim]
23:00:18 [Zakim]
23:00:33 [Zakim]
23:00:42 [jfoliot]
zakim, bye
23:00:42 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Janina, Eric_Carlson, John_Foliot, Jeanne, silvia, jallan, Kelly_Ford, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Judy
23:00:42 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
23:01:10 [jfoliot]
rrsagent, make logs public
23:01:20 [jfoliot]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:01:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jfoliot
23:02:17 [jfoliot]
rrsagent, please part
23:02:17 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items