<judy> scribe: Janina_Sajka

<janina> scribe: janina

JF: Still owes meta generator text

Text-alternatives-related sections of spec to review during Last Call period; timelines

<judy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review

jb: Looking for spec review assignees on image element

<richardschwerdtfe> ha ha

<richardschwerdtfe> :-)

<richardschwerdtfe> calling in

<judy> ACTION: judy follow up with Andrew K (on image element, svg, and editable) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action01]

<judy> ACTION: jb ask Laura if int in helping review img element [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action02]

<judy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review

<judy> ACTION: rich review or find ibm'ers to review (offline, -- also -- find people? scripting, syntax, rendering, editing) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action03]

Existing bug & issue re-open timelines during Last Call

<judy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0162.html

<judy> ACTION: judy and janina check with html chairs on *issue re-open* timelines [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action04]

jf: No progress yet ...

jb: Notes request for alternate proposals issued May 25, and expecting Jonas proposal may be coming soon

jjb: Reviewing our concern?

jf: That ARIA approach may be insufficient at this time
... Backward compatibility, ability to consume/not on demand, and support in AT

<judy> ACTION: janina will start the conversation thread with jason about the three concerns just above [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action05]

<judy> js: the question here is the things that we would expect that Jonas's approach could _not_ handle; propose to raise those concerns now

<judy> ...would lead to a frustrating user experience

jb: We seem to agree that there are circumstances where fig-caption is a perfectly acceptable fallback for alt
... However, the opposite is also true--common examples where it's a completely inappropriate fallback for alt
... Only heuristic we can concieve to auto-distinguish would be length. Is there something else?
... janina: test for length, and disallow longer than X

jf: concern that this is authoring issue, anyone using the epub will take more care
... We're forcing conformance checker to become an WCAG conformance checker
... Not wanting to get into discussion of who suggested fic-caption as fallback, seems inappropriate expectations of heuristics

jb: Length is simple, but crude, and probably insufficient on its own

gf: Agrees with jb that length is not best way to decide, but also that we need to take advantage of changes in tech
... This shouldn't be the only way to decide whether or not the fig-caption is appropriate

jb: So a flag for excessive length fig-caption

jf: How to get this into authoring tool requirements?
... Worried about introducing heuristics into this area

jb: A warning on conformance meet the concern?

gf: Yes for me

jf: Perhaps a discussion with Mike and perhaps Henry to write this up appropriately?

<judy> john: for instance... *IF* alt=null *AND* fig-caption = >200 chars *THEN* throw flag

rs: Do we also want compliance tools to do this?

jb: Validator?

rs: No, because no longer reliable as most content is generated
... It's a WCAG compliance failure, and may be more valuable that way

jb: On that level perhaps we should say even more

<judy> js: the problem on the wcag level is still -- where's your alt?

<judy> jf: ok, picture jf and rs sitting on the beach in the carribean; is that code non-conforming?

jb: Doesn't this also break backwards compatibility?

jf: A different story

jb: But still think it's a relevant case
... We want html5 to work whether or not people are fully upgraded

jf: How is fig-caption reported to apis in older tech?

jb: Can we figure this out?

rs: Probably to a div

jf: We won't lose the text, just perhaps the programatic association

jb: Found high percentage of examples where fig-caption text I saw looked like good alt text, except for certain situations

js: Why shouldn't the author tool populate both fig-caption and alt with that text

jb: But other times very inappropriate

jf: Concerned about populating because people will hear it twice

jb: Suggest we think more about this--especially whether implementation approach may help.

<JF> +1

jb: Any objections

Need someone else to take on table summary

<richardschwerdtfe> ok

jb: Concerned about the reopen timeline on table summary

<JF> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/new-information-status.html

jb: Can we reassign table summary since Gregory is unavailable these days?

jf: Notes two bugs escalated to tracker issues -- but not a new issue, I guess

<judy> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7633

<JF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Apr/0091.html

<judy> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7539

The latter is more recent

<judy> ACTION: janina follow up with wendy or cynthia to see if willing to take on table summary [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action06]

Status check on other text alternative re-open requests and change proposals: meta name=generator; role=presentation & alt;

<JF> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/new-information-status.html

jf: Leif has submitted a cp

<JF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Apr/0480.html

jf: Leif labeled is a 'first' edit, but he's on target
... I intend to clean up the English and bring it back here

<judy> minutes from last time: http://www.w3.org/2011/06/06-text-minutes.html

rs: So the question is what's the error handling?
... So, shouldn't alt='foo' overide aria-presentation?
... So, no longer presenation, but it should be flagged

jb: Looking for something concrete that we can verify on this? Do we agree on what to do?

<judy> ACTION: rich draft a proposal on role=presentation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action07]

scribe for june 20 is Rich

Janina will chair June 20

Other business?

<judy> next scribe is rich

<judy> next chair is janina

<judy> thanks all!

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136  of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/Jason/Jonas/
Succeeded: s/huristic/heuristic/
Succeeded: s/jf/jb/
Succeeded: s/jf/jb/
Succeeded: s/huristic/heuristic/
Succeeded: s/huristic/heuristic/
Succeeded: s/looked like good alt text/looked like good alt text, except for certain situations/
Found Scribe: Janina_Sajka
Found Scribe: janina
Inferring ScribeNick: janina
Scribes: Janina_Sajka, janina
Default Present: Judy, +1.650.468.aaaa, Janina, Michael_Cooper, +1.617.300.aabb, Geoff_Freed, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Present: Judy +1.650.468.aaaa Janina Michael_Cooper +1.617.300.aabb Geoff_Freed Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Got date from IRC log name: 13 Jun 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html
People with action items: cynthia ers find follow ibm janina jb judy or review rich up wendy with

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