See also: IRC log
<scribe> agenda: this
<scribe> scribe: janina
JF: We were setting this aside until we can have a conversation with someone who has expertise in this area?
js: Yes, I haven't done anything on this yet.
jf: Perhaps also an email to Sean to ask whether he can find anyone who could talk with us?
js: Yes, will do.
<mark> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12544
mw: Should we update the bug?
sp: At least to say "clean audio"
jf: Status is "open."
mw: Yes, trackinds was added to spec, and we wanted additional kinds.
js: Last week we thought we might have a specific use case to keep both "Speech" and "Clean Audio"
sp: Suggest we at least fix the reference to "clear"
mw: Should I add a comment re that?
<silvia> …and call it "clean"
[general chorus of ascent]
jf: Do we need to do anything else with the bug now?
sp: If we need to add "speech," that will come back, it won't get lost.
<JF> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10693
<JF> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12662
jf: last uri another
topic--sorry
... believe we're getting to a solution
... If I understand Steve Faulkner's email, the ml stripping
from ARIA-Describedby is being done by browsers, so flat text
is being passed to a11y apis
... So we lose the benefit of the ml
sp: Can we work with the browsers to fix that?
jf: Not sure what that means in terms of effort to implement. Is that a big ask?
ec: Suggest writing up bugs
against Safari, Mozilla, IE, Opera, etc
... Additional advantage that this would make things work
now
... A new attrib would give us nothing.
jf: So all browsers get bugs daily--Will this be taken up anytime soon? How can we follow up?
ec: Impossible to say, but have
the same situation for some other ml approach
... Except it's less work to fix the behavior of an existing ml
feature
jf: Just want to explore whether any of us can help elevate this forward so it doesn't languish
ec: Anything associated with the HTML 5 spec has high visibility, and this is a smaller ask than asking for something entirely new
jf: Eric, can you help me write a good bug on this?
ec: Think it's pretty simple, that just says "Please expose the ML"
sp: Need to make sure that the ARIA spec states this more clearly than it does now.
js: I think we can clear this up quickly as an ARIA errata item.
<scribe> ACTION: Janina to carry to PF the request to clarify that ARIA Described-by text can include markup, and that any such markup needs to be exposed to a11y apis [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/01-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-129 - Carry to PF the request to clarify that ARIA Described-by text can include markup, and that any such markup needs to be exposed to a11y apis [on Janina Sajka - due 2011-06-08].
jf: Also, we may need to have two
additional ARIA roles.
... Since we have ids pointing to parts of the Describedby
string, we should be able to refer to those parts
semantically
sp: Need a machine identifiable semantic--if needed, not sure[Discussion whether labeled would suffice]
jf: Seems this is something for the ARIA group to take up.
sp: Haven't thought about this
enough to have a solution yet.
... So, seems it's something we could handle with WebVTT
... Suggest only text tracks give us solutsion for jumping to
particular offsets in media--it's the use case I'd like to
discuss
<JF> Silvia, can you hear us?
jf: Think Silvia and Janina are
saying the same thing,
... Think we need a time stamp format that's media
agnostic
... this also applies to long form audio, an opera or a
symphonic work
... Am I correct
ec: I think Silvia is saying this
is agnostic of text file format
... So it's up to the browser to expose in an agnostic way
jf: Suggest that remembering audio as one of our use cases will help us develop how we describe this
<JF> scribe-nick: JF
<JF> Janina is demonstrating a Daisy player devise
<JF> giving an audio demonstration
<JF> goes to the Holy bible to load up navigation, and then navigates the structure
<JF> describing the device controls
<JF> book, chapter, phrase, bookmark, testament are all of the options she can navigate to
mw: One question, Janina demonstrates DAISY book using Holy Bible ...
Basic navigation is hierarchical
js: But, do we need ansiliary structure support like DAISY did?
sp; I think not, it's not in the imtline of the primary media resource
jf: Just suggesting we make sure we don't need ...
sp: Can support ansiliary with metadata
jf: This raises an interesting point, are we also talking metadata, isn't nav metadata
mw: It is, but it's info attached somehow to the timeline
<silvia> … booknotes, footnotes, sidebars, hyperlinks can be captured in a metadata track
<silvia> … they are an orthogonal problem to navigation markers
mw: The advance tree view of the nav hierarchy is different from the ansiliary display metadata
<JF> ARIA has this:
<JF> tree
<JF> A type of list that may contain sub-level nested groups that can be collapsed and expanded.
<JF> treegrid
<JF> A grid whose rows can be expanded and collapsed in the same manner as for a tree.
<JF> treeitem
sp: Think we're currently mixing two issues, jumping to a point, e.g. start chapter three
<JF> An option item of a tree. This is an element within a tree that may be expanded or collapsed if it contains a sub-level group of treeitems.
sp: As we're playing it, going to
next or previous of my current hierarchical level, or to adjust
the level before moving next previous
... the second is very dependent on where I am now
<JF> +Q
sp: It's the second I think we're not yet able on
ec: Chapter gives us flat nav, but does not support hierarchical, or nontext labeling (audio, video, image)
mw: I've seen DVD's where Chapters are labeled with snipets of video
<silvia> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#attr-track-kind-keyword-chapters <- chapter track in html
ec: Could be done with
metadata
... Using base64
sp: metadata tracks?\
<silvia> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#text-track-showing-by-default <- chapter navigation is already in the spec
jf: Suggests that the intended
use of HTML headings--the old <h1>, <h2>, etc, may
be our solution
... Perhaps a text file, adding <li>, and ARIA-tree
<mark> Comment above beginning 'Chapter gives us ...' was mw, not ec
ec: Unless we want to invent
another spec just for this, we need only to define a structure
at a high level that becomes a requirement on the text file
format
... That will mean two different ways, if both webvtt and ttml
are supported, because both can do that
<silvia> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#texttrackcuelist
sp: Not concerned so much about
the ml as about the mechanism in HTML
... Propose I mock up some markup, both WebVTT and TTML, that
takes us to HTML
<JF> +1 to no limits
<JF> <h1>My video</h1>
<JF> <h2 cue="">The Beginning</h2>
<JF> <ul>
<JF> <li cue="">Day 1</li>
<JF> <li cue="">Day 2</li>
<JF> <li cue="">Day 3</li>
<JF> </ul>
<JF> <h2 cue="">The Middle</h2>
<JF> <ul>
<JF> <li cue="">Day 1</li>
<JF> <li cue="">Day 2</li>
<JF> <li cue="">Day 3</li>
<JF> </ul>
<JF> <h2 cue="">The End</h2>
<JF> <ul>
<JF> <li cue="">Day 1</li>
<JF> <li cue="">Day 2</li>
<JF> <li cue="">Day 3</li>
<JF> </ul>
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136 of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/clear audio/clean audio/ Succeeded: s/chours/chorus/ Found Scribe: janina Inferring ScribeNick: janina Default Present: JF, silvia, mark, Janina, Eric Present: JF silvia mark Janina Eric Got date from IRC log name: 01 Jun 2011 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/06/01-html-a11y-minutes.html People with action items: janina WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]