21:30:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
21:30:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/01-html-a11y-irc
21:30:13 <janina> zakim, this will be 2119
21:30:13 <Zakim> ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start now
21:31:16 <janina> zakim, who's here?
21:31:17 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM has not yet started, janina
21:31:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, silvia, JF, MikeSmith, MichaelC, [tm], trackbot
21:31:57 <JF> zakim, this is 2119
21:31:57 <Zakim> ok, JF; that matches WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM
21:32:08 <janina> zakim, who's here?
21:32:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see JF, ??P5, silvia, mark
21:32:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, silvia, JF, MikeSmith, MichaelC, [tm], trackbot
21:32:12 <JF> zakim, who's on the phone?
21:32:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see JF, ??P5, silvia, mark
21:32:19 <janina> zakim, ??P5 is Janina
21:32:19 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
21:32:39 <mark> mark has joined #html-a11y
21:32:46 <silvia> zakim, mute me
21:32:46 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
21:32:51 <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
21:32:51 <janina> Chair:  John_Foliot
21:32:51 <janina> agenda: this
21:32:51 <janina> agenda+ Identify Scribe
21:32:51 <janina> agenda+ Clean Audio: Any progress?
21:32:52 <janina> agenda+ Paused Media: Is our approach acceptable to browsers?
21:32:54 <janina> agenda+ Hierarchical Navigation: Do we need a single approach?
21:32:56 <janina> agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
21:32:58 <janina> agenda+ Other Business?
21:33:00 <janina> agenda+ be done
21:33:02 <janina>  
21:33:06 <janina> zakim, take up item 1
21:33:06 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from janina]
21:33:13 <janina> scribe: janina
21:33:18 <janina> zakim, close item 1
21:33:18 <Zakim> agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed
21:33:19 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
21:33:20 <Zakim> 2. Clean Audio: Any progress? [from janina]
21:33:23 <janina> zakim, next item
21:33:23 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Clean Audio: Any progress?" taken up [from janina]
21:35:10 <janina> JF: We were setting this aside until we can have a conversation with someone who has expertise in this area?
21:35:22 <janina> js: Yes, I haven't done anything on this yet.
21:35:58 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
21:35:58 <Zakim> silvia should no longer be muted
21:35:58 <janina> jf: Perhaps also an email to Sean to ask whether he can find anyone who could talk with us?
21:36:02 <janina> js: Yes, will do.
21:36:09 <janina> zakim, who's here?
21:36:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see JF, Janina, silvia, mark
21:36:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see mark, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, silvia, JF, MikeSmith, MichaelC, [tm], trackbot
21:37:15 <Zakim> +Eric
21:37:45 <mark> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12544
21:38:25 <janina> mw: Should we update the bug?
21:38:33 <janina> sp: At least to say "clear audio"
21:38:44 <janina> jf: Status is "open."
21:39:31 <janina> mw: Yes, trackinds was added to spec, and we wanted additional kinds.
21:39:38 <silvia> s/clear audio/clean audio/
21:39:57 <janina> js: Last week we thought we might have a specific use case to keep both "Speech" and "Clean Audio"
21:40:30 <janina> sp: Suggest we at least fix the reference to "clear"
21:40:43 <janina> mw: Should I add a comment re that?
21:40:44 <silvia> …and call it "clean"
21:40:53 <janina> [general chours of ascent]
21:42:10 <janina> s/chours/chorus/
21:42:33 <janina> jf: Do we need to do anything else with the bug now?
21:42:45 <janina> sp: If we need to add "speech," that will come back, it won't get lost.
21:42:49 <janina> zakim, next item
21:42:49 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Paused Media: Is our approach acceptable to browsers?" taken up [from janina]
21:42:58 <JF> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10693
21:43:04 <JF> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12662
21:43:51 <janina> jf: last uri another topic--sorry
21:43:59 <janina> jf: believe we're getting to a solution
21:44:30 <janina> jf: If I understand Steve Faulkner's email, the ml stripping from ARIA-Describedby is being done by browsers, so flat text is being passed to a11y apis
21:45:15 <janina> jf: So we lose the benefit of the ml
21:45:24 <janina> sp: Can we work with the browsers to fix that?
21:45:45 <janina> jf: Not sure what that means in terms of effort to implement. Is that a big ask?
21:47:55 <janina> ec: Suggest writing up bugs against Safari, Mozilla, IE, Opera, etc
21:48:08 <janina> ec: Additional advantage that this would make things work now
21:48:36 <janina> ec: A new attrib would give us nothing.
21:49:01 <janina> jf: So all browsers get bugs daily--Will this be taken up anytime soon? How can we follow up?
21:49:43 <janina> ec: Impossible to say, but have the same situation for some other ml approach
21:50:09 <janina> ec: Except it's less work to fix the behavior of an existing ml feature
21:50:53 <janina> jf: Just want to explore whether any of us can help elevate this forward so it doesn't languish
21:51:59 <janina> ec: Anything associated with the HTML 5 spec has high visibility, and this is a smaller ask than asking for something entirely new
21:52:46 <Zakim> -Eric
21:52:57 <Zakim> +Eric
21:53:39 <janina> jf: Eric, can you help me write a good bug on this?
21:53:58 <janina> ec: Think it's pretty simple, that just says "Please expose the ML"
21:54:40 <janina> sp: Need to make sure that the ARIA spec states this more clearly than it does now.
21:57:21 <janina> js: I think we can clear this up quickly as an ARIA errata item.
21:58:06 <janina> action: Janina to carry to PF the request to clarify that ARIA Described-by text can include markup, and that any such markup needs to be exposed to a11y apis
21:58:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-129 - Carry to PF the request to clarify that ARIA Described-by text can include markup, and that any such markup needs to be exposed to a11y apis [on Janina Sajka - due 2011-06-08].
21:58:47 <janina> jf: Also, we may need to have two additional ARIA roles.
21:59:30 <janina> jf: Since we have ids pointing to parts of the Describedby string, we should be able to refer to those parts semantically
22:02:27 <janina> sp: Need a machine identifiable semantic--if needed, not sure[Discussion whether labeled would suffice]
22:05:11 <janina> jf: Seems this is something for the ARIA group to take up.
22:05:33 <janina> zakim, next item
22:05:33 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Hierarchical Navigation: Do we need a single approach?" taken up [from janina]
22:06:28 <janina> sp: Haven't thought about this enough to have a solution yet.
22:06:52 <janina> sp: So, seems it's something we could handle with WebVTT
22:10:35 <janina> sp: Suggest only text tracks give us solutsion  for jumping to particular offsets in media--it's the use case I'd like to discuss
22:11:53 <JF> Silvia, can you hear us?
22:12:37 <janina> jf: Think Silvia and Janina are saying the same thing,
22:12:48 <janina> jf: Think we need a time stamp format that's media agnostic
22:13:01 <janina> jf: this also applies to long form audio, an opera or a symphonic work
22:13:54 <janina> jf: Am I correct
22:14:06 <janina> ec: I think Silvia is saying this is agnostic of text file format
22:14:34 <janina> ec: So it's up to the browser to expose in an agnostic way
22:15:24 <janina> jf: Suggest that remembering audio as one of our use cases will help us develop how we describe this
22:16:56 <JF> scribe-nick: JF
22:17:12 <JF> Janina is demonstrating a Daisy player devise
22:17:36 <JF> giving an audio demonstration
22:17:54 <JF> goes to the Holy bible to load up navigation, and then navigates the structure
22:18:02 <JF> describing the device controls
22:18:33 <JF> book, chapter, phrase, bookmark, testament are all of the options she can navigate to
22:25:58 <janina> mw: One question, Janina demonstrates DAISY book using Holy Bible ...
22:26:07 <janina> Basic navigation is hierarchical
22:26:22 <janina> js: But, do we need ansiliary structure support like DAISY did?
22:26:36 <janina> sp; I think not, it's not in the imtline of the primary media resource
22:27:21 <janina> jf: Just suggesting we make sure we don't need ...
22:28:38 <janina> sp: Can support ansiliary with metadata
22:29:04 <janina> jf: This raises an interesting point, are we also talking metadata, isn't nav metadata
22:29:17 <janina> mw: It is, but it's info attached somehow to the timeline
22:29:24 <silvia> … booknotes, footnotes, sidebars, hyperlinks can be captured in a metadata track
22:29:40 <silvia> … they are an orthogonal problem to navigation markers
22:30:31 <janina> mw: The advance tree view of the nav hierarchy is different from the ansiliary display metadata
22:31:12 <Zakim> -Eric
22:31:34 <Zakim> +Eric
22:32:22 <JF> ARIA has this: 
22:32:27 <JF> tree
22:32:28 <JF>     A type of list that may contain sub-level nested groups that can be collapsed and expanded.
22:32:29 <JF> treegrid
22:32:31 <JF>     A grid whose rows can be expanded and collapsed in the same manner as for a tree.
22:32:33 <JF> treeitem
22:32:33 <janina> sp: Think we're currently mixing two issues, jumping to a point, e.g. start chapter three
22:32:34 <JF>     An option item of a tree. This is an element within a tree that may be expanded or collapsed if it contains a sub-level group of treeitems.
22:32:35 <Zakim> -Eric
22:33:19 <Zakim> +Eric
22:33:19 <janina> sp: As we're playing it, going to next or previous of my current hierarchical level, or to adjust the level before moving next previous
22:33:32 <janina> sp: the second is very dependent on where I am now
22:34:45 <JF> +Q
22:35:03 <janina> sp: It's the second I think we're not yet able on
22:35:24 <janina> ack j
22:37:16 <janina> ec: Chapter gives us flat nav, but does not support hierarchical, or nontext labeling (audio, video, image)
22:37:42 <janina> mw: I've seen DVD's where Chapters are labeled with snipets of video
22:37:46 <silvia> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#attr-track-kind-keyword-chapters <- chapter track in html
22:37:49 <janina> ec: Could be done with metadata
22:38:02 <janina> ec: Using base64
22:38:21 <janina> sp: metadata tracks?\
22:40:31 <silvia> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#text-track-showing-by-default <- chapter navigation is already in the spec
22:43:29 <janina> jf: Suggests that the intended use of HTML headings--the old <h1>, <h2>, etc, may be our solution
22:43:55 <janina> jf: Perhaps a text file, adding <li>, and ARIA-tree
22:44:12 <mark> Comment above beginning 'Chapter gives us ...' was mw, not ec
22:44:29 <janina> ec: Unless we want to invent another spec just for this, we need only to define a structure at a high level that becomes a requirement on the text file format
22:45:14 <janina> ec: That will mean two different ways, if both webvtt and ttml are supported, because both can do that
22:46:22 <silvia> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#texttrackcuelist
22:46:36 <janina> sp: Not concerned so much about the ml as about the mechanism in HTML
22:49:08 <janina> sp: Propose I mock up some markup, both WebVTT and TTML, that takes us to HTML
22:49:42 <JF> +1 to no limits
22:53:38 <JF> <h1>My video</h1>
22:53:41 <JF> 	<h2 cue="">The Beginning</h2>
22:53:42 <JF> 		<ul>
22:53:44 <JF> 			<li cue="">Day 1</li>
22:53:46 <JF> 			<li cue="">Day 2</li>
22:53:47 <JF> 			<li cue="">Day 3</li>
22:53:49 <JF> 		</ul>
22:53:50 <JF> 	<h2 cue="">The Middle</h2>
22:53:52 <JF> 			<ul>
22:53:54 <JF> 			<li cue="">Day 1</li>
22:53:55 <JF> 			<li cue="">Day 2</li>
22:53:57 <JF> 			<li cue="">Day 3</li>
22:53:59 <JF> 		</ul>
22:54:00 <JF> 	<h2 cue="">The End</h2>
22:54:02 <JF> 			<ul>
22:54:03 <JF> 			<li cue="">Day 1</li>
22:54:05 <JF> 			<li cue="">Day 2</li>
22:54:06 <JF> 			<li cue="">Day 3</li>
22:54:08 <JF> 		</ul>
22:58:18 <silvia> zakim, next item
22:58:18 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open" taken up [from janina]
22:58:26 <silvia> zakim, next item
22:58:26 <Zakim> agendum 5 was just opened, silvia
22:58:43 <silvia> zakim, close agendum 5
22:58:43 <Zakim> agendum 5, Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open, closed
22:58:46 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:58:48 <Zakim> 6. Other Business? [from janina]
22:58:48 <silvia> zakim, next item
22:58:48 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Other Business?" taken up [from janina]
23:01:25 <Zakim> -Eric
23:01:28 <Zakim> -mark
23:01:29 <Zakim> -silvia
23:01:31 <Zakim> -Janina
23:01:42 <Zakim> -JF
23:01:43 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM has ended
23:01:45 <Zakim> Attendees were JF, silvia, mark, Janina, Eric
23:11:23 <janina> zakim, bye
23:11:23 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
23:11:31 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
23:11:37 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
23:11:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/01-html-a11y-minutes.html janina