See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 17 June 2010
<oedipus> i am not the soul of brevity
<Stevef> whats the passcode?
<oedipus> 2119
<Stevef> thought so didn't work first time
<Stevef> Note: I have to leave early today
<oedipus> note that Martin _might_ be able to attend later on in the meeting
<scribe> scribe: Ben
<MikeSmith> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0162.html
<MikeSmith> action-20?
<trackbot> ACTION-20 -- Wendy Chisholm to work with Charles to dig up history on column element -- due 2010-06-17 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/20
<oedipus> action-20?
<trackbot> ACTION-20 -- Wendy Chisholm to work with Charles to dig up history on column element -- due 2010-06-17 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/20
<MikeSmith> action-20: MichaelC will ping Wendy
<trackbot> ACTION-20 Work with Charles to dig up history on column element notes added
<MikeSmith> action-20 due 2010-06-24
<trackbot> ACTION-20 Work with Charles to dig up history on column element due date now 2010-06-24
<MichaelC> action-20: MichaelC to ping Wendy on plans
<trackbot> ACTION-20 Work with Charles to dig up history on column element notes added
<MikeSmith> action-47?
<trackbot> ACTION-47 -- Steve Faulkner to file a bug with HTML 5 about making autocomplete consistent with ARIA, per comment 289 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/update?comment_id=289 -- due 2010-06-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/47
<MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/update?comment_id=289
<MikeSmith> action-47 due 2010-07-01
<trackbot> ACTION-47 File a bug with HTML 5 about making autocomplete consistent with ARIA, per comment 289 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/update?comment_id=289 due date now 2010-07-01
<MikeSmith> action-48?
<trackbot> ACTION-48 -- John Foliot to synthesize comments and list questions -- due 2010-06-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/48
<Marco_Ranon> apologies for the delay. having troubles dialing in here
<Marco_Ranon> ok, thanks.
<Marco_Ranon> i'll follow on irc
<MikeSmith> action-48: this came originally from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0124.html but has since been overcome by events
<trackbot> ACTION-48 Synthesize comments and list questions notes added
<MikeSmith> close action-48
<trackbot> ACTION-48 Synthesize comments and list questions closed
<MikeSmith> action-37?
<trackbot> ACTION-37 -- Cynthia Shelly to menu and command mappings due to subteam -- due 2010-05-25 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/37
<MikeSmith> action-37: this is rolled into the deliverable for next week, sent a draft a few weeks ago
<trackbot> ACTION-37 menu and command mappings due to subteam notes added
<oedipus> cyns, thanks for sending me the command stuff you currently have to me for accesskey requirement comparison
<MikeSmith> close action-37
<trackbot> ACTION-37 menu and command mappings due to subteam closed
<MikeSmith> action-38?
<trackbot> ACTION-38 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to review additional HTML 5 input controls as to whether can be overriden by aria roles -- due 2010-05-18 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/38
<MikeSmith> action-38: done already, going through final review
<trackbot> ACTION-38 review additional HTML 5 input controls as to whether can be overriden by aria roles notes added
<MikeSmith> close action-38
<trackbot> ACTION-38 review additional HTML 5 input controls as to whether can be overriden by aria roles closed
<MikeSmith> action-40?
<trackbot> ACTION-40 -- Steve Faulkner to html4 interactive elements (form and links?) -- due 2010-05-18 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/40
<MikeSmith> action-40: actual work has been done
<trackbot> ACTION-40 html4 interactive elements (form and links?) notes added
<MikeSmith> close action-40
<trackbot> ACTION-40 html4 interactive elements (form and links?) closed
JS: canvas subteam proposal is out, do we still need a canvas subteam?
<oedipus> canvas subgroup will be the ones who will field comments from wider HTML WG, right?
RI: we submitted our proposal, some comments from Opera after we signed off, may need to be dealt with at HTML WG level
s /RI:/RS:
<Stevef> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/Map4NotAdom
<Stevef> Improve image maps and use them to make canvas accessible
RS: not sure what the process is, does same sub-team process feedback on proposal?
<oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0136.html
<oedipus> Charles' Update on imagemap proposal for canvas
<dboudreau> hi everyone, sorry i'm late
MS: Chairs in HTML WG are not waiting on TF, but on proposal from Charles
GR: Agreed that Charles will submit a counter proposal within HTML WG context.
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2010/06/10-html-a11y-minutes.html#item02
RS: Am willing to review it with members of the sub-team. In our best interest to monitor what is happening on the HTML side. In that respect, may be best for sub team to work on whatever comments that come in.
MS: From chairs perspective, there is no delay from task force. From TF perspective, no concerns if no counter proposal comes.
<Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say that canvas subgroup will want to review chaals' imagemap proposal if advanced, but it is not the proposal that comes out of the TF
MS: Seems like we have agreement on this.
<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to ask about teleconference slots for subgroups
MC: Subgroups have a limited number of teleconference slots. Need to decide whether to extend them.
MS: Canvas slot still needed?
RS: Let's leave it open.
MS: Other teleconference slot decisions needed today?
MC: No, but need decisions fairly soon, can address on planning call.
<MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0133.html
<oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0133.html
<MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2010/06/03-html-a11y-minutes#item03
<MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0137.html
<oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0137.html
MS: Not a whole lot of response to latest message from Gez, one follow up from EC.
<oedipus> Eric response to Gez' DragNDrop Follow-Up
<MikeSmith> [[
<MikeSmith> The first thing we need is feedback from browser manufacturers to
<MikeSmith> determine if these events can be fired using the keyboard alone
<MikeSmith> resulting in an accessible workflow.
<MikeSmith> ]
MS: Not sure what to do on this, but would be useful to get feedback from M'Soft, Mozilla and Opera.
<cyns> fixed IRC. drag and drop URL again, please?
<MikeSmith> davidb: ↑
<MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0133.html
<MikeSmith> Gez message from last month
<davidb> gee I haven't thought about dragndrop for 200 years
MS: Unsure about next steps.
<oedipus> Drag and Drop discussion from 2010-06-03 telecon
JS: Gez isn't able to participate on the call, but needs feedback in order to develop proposals.
MS: Next step is to file a bug
that would be used to file change proposals.
... There is some sense of urgency on these issues as we'd like
to get to last call. Should try to get bugs filed within next
several weeks.
GR: Looking at minutes from earlier this month. We're at the same place we were then.
MC: We do have a placeholder bug on this, but it is marked as "needs info"
CS: Just sent request to IE team, hoping for feedback in a few days.
MS: This is something to keep checking on so that it doesn't slip between the cracks.
MS: JS, MC and I had a discussion about changing the meeting time to make it possible for some other to attend.
<dboudreau> good idea, Laura's presence would definitely be an asset
after PF call may be a better time
<oedipus> 1 PM Boston time on Wednesdays would be fine for GJR
MS: No other specific suggestions for time.
CS: would be nice to have a day between meetings to work on proposals.
JS: Should we run a survey on it?
MC: Suggest we do a survey, want to be sure to reach people who can't make current time.
<dboudreau> +1 for survey
<MikeSmith> latest "Weekly Resolved & Rejected Bugs Report"
MC: Suggest that we should first triage bugs Laura recommends as formal task force bugs. Second, those that have had a recent status change.
use of onevent handler attributes"
-> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9871
MS: No response on this yet.
SF: Has been some conversations, some concerns with it.
RS: Problem occurred because an element has been repurposed.
SF: Currently, within the spec, if you do something to change default semantic, it is an error, but not one that will be reported. So what is essentially happening is that now we've got a way to pick up the error. For the most part, you may dissuade people from using ARIA in the end.
CS: ... because easiest fix is going to be to remove the ARIA
EC: is it also an error to add an event listener through script?
SF: Yes, but it's an undetectable error unless the generated code is put through a conformance checker.
CS: We would prefer that these
things not be flagged as errors. What we're trying to make
clear is that ARIA makes it easy to find the error, but use of
ARIA is not the error. Concerned that this will discourage use
of ARIA. The thing ARIA was designed to fix is the misuse of
event handlers.
... Prefer that we have a set of allowed ARIA overrides. If any
of them are used, there would be no warning. We are getting
some pushback on that.
EC: Concerns about strategy of filing bugs to make this point.
MS: Not something that current validators are providing warnings about. Adding errors like this is not something to be taken lightly.
SF: Result would be annoyance errors, not useful for developers. What I want to know is whether I'm using ARIA correctly.
For elements that are typically repurposed, I don't want to be told I've done something wrong.
JS: Seems to be strong opinion here.
MS: Will go ahead and add task force keyword and a link to today's minutes to this bug.
in href attribute"
-> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9872
<dboudreau> I also think it should trigger an error
<Marco_Ranon> +1
SF: There are certain things that are conformance errors, but can't be checked. Let's find ways to repair the damage that these errors may do rather than try to block legitimate uses.
MS: These two issues seem to go hand-in-hand. No agreement for a resolution at this point, but seems like an issue we want to eventually take a position on. Will add keyword on this one too.
ES: I want to go on record to say that I think that filing bugs like this is a problem. It dilutes the authority of the group when there are bugs that we really feel strongly about. (from perspective of someone outside the group)
CS: Can see why you're saying that. This is sort of a fallback position. Either don't flag the ARIA or, if you're going to flag the ARIA, flag the thing that the ARIA is fixing.
MS: Not clear from looking at bug what the context is. May be better to file one bug to say "don't flag the ARIA."
EC: Don't file specious bugs to make a point because people won't get the point.
if this really isn't an important issue, then I think it's counter-productive.
JS: Think the sense is that it is an important issue because it could discourage proper use of ARIA.
MS: I think we've got everything
on record here and that we do understand each other. Will
return to discussion of this in TF. Don't think we'll get
resolution today. Perhaps we should have some discussion on
when we should take up issues like this of if a higher bar is
needed.
... Adjourned for this week. Same time next week.
<MikeSmith> [adjourned]
<dboudreau> i would if language wasn't such an issue, sorry :(
<dboudreau> later
<Marco_Ranon> bye
<dboudreau> -dboudreau
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