IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-06-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:11:03 [davidb]
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14:57:23 [RRSAgent]
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14:57:23 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/17-html-a11y-irc
14:57:25 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:57:26 [Zakim]
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14:57:27 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
14:57:28 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:57:28 [trackbot]
Date: 17 June 2010
14:57:38 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:54 [oedipus]
regrets: Laura_Carlson,Kelly_Ford,Kenny_Johar,Silvia_Pfeiffer
14:58:08 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started
14:58:12 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper
14:58:31 [MichaelC]
regrets: Martin_Kliehm, Kelly_Ford, Laura_Carlson
14:58:34 [MichaelC]
chair: Mike_Smith
14:58:39 [MichaelC]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0162.html
14:58:47 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmaita
14:59:11 [janina]
zakim, call janina
14:59:11 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
14:59:13 [Zakim]
+Janina
15:00:28 [Stevef]
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15:00:40 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly
15:00:54 [oedipus]
i am not the soul of brevity
15:01:18 [cyns]
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15:01:19 [Stevef]
whats the passcode?
15:01:25 [oedipus]
2119
15:01:35 [Zakim]
+Ben
15:01:36 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:01:50 [Stevef]
thought so didn't work first time
15:01:56 [eric_carlson]
eric_carlson has joined #html-a11y
15:02:12 [Zakim]
+Eric_Carlson
15:02:17 [MichaelC]
zakim, IPcaller is Steve_Faulkner
15:02:17 [Zakim]
+Steve_Faulkner; got it
15:02:46 [Stevef]
Note: I have to leave early today
15:03:25 [jongunderson]
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15:03:26 [oedipus]
note that Martin _might_ be able to attend later on in the meeting
15:03:36 [MikeSmith]
zakim, call Mike
15:03:37 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:03:37 [Zakim]
+Mike
15:03:49 [Ben]
scribe: Ben
15:03:59 [MikeSmith]
zakim, Mike is me
15:03:59 [Zakim]
+MikeSmith; got it
15:04:01 [Ben]
agenda?
15:04:34 [Ben]
agenda+ Actions Review
15:04:41 [MikeSmith]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0162.html
15:04:46 [Ben]
agenda+ agenda+ Canvas, Media, & ARIA Subteam Updates
15:04:57 [Ben]
zakim, take up agendum 1
15:04:57 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Actions Review" taken up [from Ben]
15:05:05 [Ben]
agenda+ Drag & Drop follow-up
15:05:14 [MikeSmith]
action-20?
15:05:14 [trackbot]
ACTION-20 -- Wendy Chisholm to work with Charles to dig up history on column element -- due 2010-06-17 -- OPEN
15:05:14 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/20
15:05:17 [Ben]
agenda+ discussion about changing meeting time
15:05:21 [oedipus]
action-20?
15:05:21 [trackbot]
ACTION-20 -- Wendy Chisholm to work with Charles to dig up history on column element -- due 2010-06-17 -- OPEN
15:05:21 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/20
15:05:24 [Ben]
agenda+ bug triage
15:05:40 [Ben]
agenda+ New Business
15:06:37 [MikeSmith]
action-20: MichaelC will ping Wendy
15:06:37 [trackbot]
ACTION-20 Work with Charles to dig up history on column element notes added
15:06:55 [MikeSmith]
action-20 due 2010-06-24
15:06:55 [trackbot]
ACTION-20 Work with Charles to dig up history on column element due date now 2010-06-24
15:07:02 [MichaelC]
action-20: MichaelC to ping Wendy on plans
15:07:02 [trackbot]
ACTION-20 Work with Charles to dig up history on column element notes added
15:07:18 [MikeSmith]
action-47?
15:07:18 [trackbot]
ACTION-47 -- Steve Faulkner to file a bug with HTML 5 about making autocomplete consistent with ARIA, per comment 289 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/update?comment_id=289 -- due 2010-06-16 -- OPEN
15:07:18 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/47
15:07:53 [Zakim]
+??P11
15:08:09 [MikeSmith]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/update?comment_id=289
15:08:10 [richardschwerdtfe]
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15:08:13 [jongunderson]
zakim, ??p11 jongunderson
15:08:13 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??p11 jongunderson', jongunderson
15:08:21 [jongunderson]
zakim, ??p11 is jongunderson
15:08:21 [Zakim]
+jongunderson; got it
15:08:33 [kliehm]
kliehm has joined #html-a11y
15:08:40 [MikeSmith]
action-47 due 2010-07-01
15:08:40 [trackbot]
ACTION-47 File a bug with HTML 5 about making autocomplete consistent with ARIA, per comment 289 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/update?comment_id=289 due date now 2010-07-01
15:08:41 [Marco_Ranon]
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15:08:49 [Zakim]
+Rich
15:08:59 [MikeSmith]
action-48?
15:08:59 [trackbot]
ACTION-48 -- John Foliot to synthesize comments and list questions -- due 2010-06-16 -- OPEN
15:08:59 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/48
15:09:13 [Marco_Ranon]
apologies for the delay. having troubles dialing in here
15:09:53 [Marco_Ranon]
ok, thanks.
15:10:15 [Marco_Ranon]
i'll follow on irc
15:10:19 [MikeSmith]
action-48: this came originally from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0124.html but has since been overcome by events
15:10:19 [trackbot]
ACTION-48 Synthesize comments and list questions notes added
15:10:26 [MikeSmith]
close action-48
15:10:27 [trackbot]
ACTION-48 Synthesize comments and list questions closed
15:11:15 [MikeSmith]
action-37?
15:11:15 [trackbot]
ACTION-37 -- Cynthia Shelly to menu and command mappings due to subteam -- due 2010-05-25 -- OPEN
15:11:15 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/37
15:11:46 [MikeSmith]
action-37: this is rolled into the deliverable for next week, sent a draft a few weeks ago
15:11:46 [trackbot]
ACTION-37 menu and command mappings due to subteam notes added
15:11:55 [oedipus]
cyns, thanks for sending me the command stuff you currently have to me for accesskey requirement comparison
15:12:26 [MikeSmith]
close action-37
15:12:27 [trackbot]
ACTION-37 menu and command mappings due to subteam closed
15:12:47 [MikeSmith]
action-38?
15:12:47 [trackbot]
ACTION-38 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to review additional HTML 5 input controls as to whether can be overriden by aria roles -- due 2010-05-18 -- OPEN
15:12:47 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/38
15:13:08 [MikeSmith]
action-38: done already, going through final review
15:13:08 [trackbot]
ACTION-38 review additional HTML 5 input controls as to whether can be overriden by aria roles notes added
15:13:13 [MikeSmith]
close action-38
15:13:13 [trackbot]
ACTION-38 review additional HTML 5 input controls as to whether can be overriden by aria roles closed
15:13:36 [MikeSmith]
action-40?
15:13:36 [trackbot]
ACTION-40 -- Steve Faulkner to html4 interactive elements (form and links?) -- due 2010-05-18 -- OPEN
15:13:36 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/40
15:13:38 [Zakim]
+kliehm
15:13:59 [MichaelC]
regrets- Martin_Kliehm
15:14:21 [MikeSmith]
action-40: actual work has been done
15:14:21 [trackbot]
ACTION-40 html4 interactive elements (form and links?) notes added
15:14:25 [MikeSmith]
close action-40
15:14:25 [trackbot]
ACTION-40 html4 interactive elements (form and links?) closed
15:15:03 [Ben]
zakim, close this item
15:15:03 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
15:15:04 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:15:05 [Zakim]
2. agenda+ Canvas, Media, & ARIA Subteam Updates [from Ben]
15:15:07 [Ben]
zakim, take up agendum 2
15:15:07 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "agenda+ Canvas, Media, & ARIA Subteam Updates" taken up [from Ben]
15:15:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/17-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:15:36 [MikeSmith]
q?
15:15:46 [MRanon_]
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15:15:58 [Ben]
JS: canvas subteam proposal is out, do we still need a canvas subteam?
15:16:23 [oedipus]
canvas subgroup will be the ones who will field comments from wider HTML WG, right?
15:16:35 [Ben]
RI: we submitted our proposal, some comments from Opera after we signed off, may need to be dealt with at HTML WG level
15:16:55 [Ben]
s /RI:/RS:
15:17:01 [Stevef]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/Map4NotAdom
15:17:16 [Stevef]
Improve image maps and use them to make canvas accessible
15:17:38 [Marco_Ranon_]
Marco_Ranon_ has joined #html-a11y
15:17:39 [Ben]
RS: not sure what the process is, does same sub-team process feedback on proposal?
15:18:02 [dboudreau]
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15:18:22 [oedipus]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0136.html
15:18:41 [Zakim]
+ +1.514.312.aaaa
15:18:47 [MikeSmith]
q?
15:19:07 [oedipus]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0136.html Charles' Update on imagemap proposal for canvas
15:19:09 [dboudreau]
hi everyone, sorry i'm late
15:19:28 [MichaelC]
zakim, aaaa is Denis_Boudreau
15:19:28 [Zakim]
+Denis_Boudreau; got it
15:19:29 [Ben]
MS: Chairs in HTML WG are not waiting on TF, but on proposal from Charles
15:20:42 [MichaelC]
q+ to ask about teleconference slots for subgroups
15:21:05 [Ben]
GR: Agreed that Charles will submit a counter proposal within HTML WG context.
15:21:55 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/2010/06/10-html-a11y-minutes.html#item02
15:22:12 [Ben]
RS: Am willing to review it with members of the sub-team. In our best interest to monitor what is happening on the HTML side. In that respect, may be best for sub team to work on whatever comments that come in.
15:23:12 [oedipus]
q+ to say that canvas subgroup will want to review chaals' imagemap proposal if advanced, but it is not the proposal that comes out of the TF
15:23:19 [Ben]
MS: From chairs perspective, there is no delay from task force. From TF perspective, no concerns if no counter proposal comes.
15:23:46 [oedipus]
ack oe
15:23:46 [Zakim]
oedipus, you wanted to say that canvas subgroup will want to review chaals' imagemap proposal if advanced, but it is not the proposal that comes out of the TF
15:23:53 [Ben]
MS: Seems like we have agreement on this.
15:23:59 [MikeSmith]
ack MichaelC
15:23:59 [Zakim]
MichaelC, you wanted to ask about teleconference slots for subgroups
15:24:15 [oedipus]
ack mic
15:24:27 [Ben]
MC: Subgroups have a limited number of teleconference slots. Need to decide whether to extend them.
15:24:46 [Ben]
MS: Canvas slot still needed?
15:24:51 [Ben]
RS: Let's leave it open.
15:25:24 [Ben]
MS: Other teleconference slot decisions needed today?
15:25:37 [Ben]
MC: No, but need decisions fairly soon, can address on planning call.
15:25:48 [Ben]
zakim, close this item
15:25:48 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
15:25:49 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:25:51 [Zakim]
3. Drag & Drop follow-up [from Ben]
15:25:53 [Ben]
zakim, take up agendum 3
15:25:53 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Drag & Drop follow-up" taken up [from Ben]
15:25:56 [MikeSmith]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0133.html
15:26:08 [oedipus]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0133.html
15:26:12 [MikeSmith]
http://www.w3.org/2010/06/03-html-a11y-minutes#item03
15:26:36 [MikeSmith]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0137.html
15:26:41 [oedipus]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0137.html
15:26:58 [Ben]
MS: Not a whole lot of response to latest message from Gez, one follow up from EC.
15:27:15 [oedipus]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0137.html Eric response to Gez' DragNDrop Follow-Up
15:27:29 [MikeSmith]
[[
15:27:30 [MikeSmith]
The first thing we need is feedback from browser manufacturers to
15:27:31 [MikeSmith]
determine if these events can be fired using the keyboard alone
15:27:31 [MikeSmith]
resulting in an accessible workflow.
15:27:31 [MikeSmith]
]
15:27:58 [Ben]
MS: Not sure what to do on this, but would be useful to get feedback from M'Soft, Mozilla and Opera.
15:29:23 [cyns]
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15:29:37 [cyns]
fixed IRC. drag and drop URL again, please?
15:29:40 [MikeSmith]
davidb: ↑
15:29:53 [MikeSmith]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0133.html
15:30:47 [MikeSmith]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0179.html Gez message from last month
15:30:57 [davidb]
gee I haven't thought about dragndrop for 200 years
15:31:50 [dboudreau]
dboudreau has joined #html-a11y
15:31:52 [MikeSmith]
q?
15:32:21 [Ben]
MS: Unsure about next steps.
15:32:48 [oedipus]
-> http://www.w3.org/2010/06/03-html-a11y-minutes.html#item03 Drag and Drop discussion from 2010-06-03 telecon
15:33:04 [Ben]
JS: Gez isn't able to participate on the call, but needs feedback in order to develop proposals.
15:33:17 [Ben]
MS: Next step is to file a bug that would be used to file change proposals.
15:33:58 [Ben]
MS: There is some sense of urgency on these issues as we'd like to get to last call. Should try to get bugs filed within next several weeks.
15:34:29 [Ben]
GR: Looking at minutes from earlier this month. We're at the same place we were then.
15:34:47 [Ben]
MC: We do have a placeholder bug on this, but it is marked as "needs info"
15:35:13 [Ben]
CS: Just sent request to IE team, hoping for feedback in a few days.
15:35:46 [Ben]
MS: This is something to keep checking on so that it doesn't slip between the cracks.
15:36:03 [Ben]
zakim, close this item
15:36:03 [Zakim]
agendum 3 closed
15:36:04 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:36:05 [Zakim]
4. discussion about changing meeting time [from Ben]
15:36:10 [Ben]
zakim, take up agendum 4
15:36:10 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "discussion about changing meeting time" taken up [from Ben]
15:36:34 [Ben]
MS: JS, MC and I had a discussion about changing the meeting time to make it possible for some other to attend.
15:37:36 [dboudreau]
good idea, Laura's presence would definitely be an asset
15:37:57 [MikeSmith]
q?
15:38:34 [Ben]
after PF call may be a better time
15:39:03 [oedipus]
1 PM boston time would be fine for GJR
15:39:18 [Ben]
MS: No other specific suggestions for time.
15:39:40 [oedipus]
s/1 PM boston time would be fine for GJR/1 PM Boston time on Wednesdays would be fine for GJR/
15:39:42 [Ben]
CS: would be nice to have a day between meetings to work on proposals.
15:39:55 [Ben]
JS: Should we run a survey on it?
15:40:47 [Ben]
MC: Suggest we do a survey, want to be sure to reach people who can't make current time.
15:41:01 [dboudreau]
+1 for survey
15:42:05 [Ben]
zakim, close this item
15:42:05 [Zakim]
agendum 4 closed
15:42:06 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:42:07 [Zakim]
5. bug triage [from Ben]
15:42:10 [Ben]
zakim, take up agendum 5
15:42:10 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "bug triage" taken up [from Ben]
15:42:37 [MikeSmith]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0140.html latest "Weekly Resolved & Rejected Bugs Report"
15:43:41 [Ben]
MC: Suggest that we should first triage bugs Laura recommends as formal task force bugs. Second, those that have had a recent status change.
15:44:16 [Ben]
Topic: Bug 9871: "Provide normative advice to conformance checkers about
15:44:18 [Ben]
use of onevent handler attributes"
15:44:27 [Ben]
-> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9871
15:45:14 [Ben]
MS: No response on this yet.
15:46:02 [eric_carlson]
q?
15:46:11 [Ben]
SF: Has been some conversations, some concerns with it.
15:46:20 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:46:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/17-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:46:42 [Ben]
RS: Problem occurred because an element has been repurposed.
15:48:16 [Ben]
SF: Currently, within the spec, if you do something to change default semantic, it is an error, but not one that will be reported. So what is essentially happening is that now we've got a way to pick up the error. For the most part, you may dissuade people from using ARIA in the end.
15:48:29 [Ben]
CS: ... because easiest fix is going to be to remove the ARIA
15:48:49 [Ben]
EC: is it also an error to add an event listener through script?
15:49:25 [Ben]
SF: Yes, but it's an undetectable error unless the generated code is put through a conformance checker.
15:50:41 [Ben]
CS: We would prefer that these things not be flagged as errors. What we're trying to make clear is that ARIA makes it easy to find the error, but use of ARIA is not the error. Concerned that this will discourage use of ARIA. The thing ARIA was designed to fix is the misuse of event handlers.
15:51:20 [Ben]
CS: Prefer that we have a set of allowed ARIA overrides. If any of them are used, there would be no warning. We are getting some pushback on that.
15:51:54 [Ben]
EC: Concerns about strategy of filing bugs to make this point.
15:53:35 [Ben]
MS: Not something that current validators are providing warnings about. Adding errors like this is not something to be taken lightly.
15:54:25 [janina]
q?
15:54:28 [Ben]
SF: Result would be annoyance errors, not useful for developers. What I want to know is whether I'm using ARIA correctly.
15:55:37 [Ben]
For elements that are typically repurposed, I don't want to be told I've done something wrong.
15:55:45 [Ben]
JS: Seems to be strong opinion here.
15:56:03 [Ben]
MS: Will go ahead and add task force keyword and a link to today's minutes to this bug.
15:56:37 [Ben]
Topic: Bug 9872: "Trigger a conformance error when javascript is included
15:56:39 [Ben]
in href attribute"
15:56:49 [Ben]
-> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9872
15:58:00 [dboudreau]
I also think it should trigger an error
15:58:54 [Marco_Ranon]
+1
15:59:20 [Ben]
SF: There are certain things that are conformance errors, but can't be checked. Let's find ways to repair the damage that these errors may do rather than try to block legitimate uses.
16:00:20 [eric_carlson]
q?
16:00:32 [Ben]
MS: These two issues seem to go hand-in-hand. No agreement for a resolution at this point, but seems like an issue we want to eventually take a position on. Will add keyword on this one too.
16:01:25 [Ben]
ES: I want to go on record to say that I think that filing bugs like this is a problem. It dilutes the authority of the group when there are bugs that we really feel strongly about. (from perspective of someone outside the group)
16:01:51 [Ben]
CS: Can see why you're saying that. This is sort of a fallback position. Either don't flag the ARIA or, if you're going to flag the ARIA, flag the thing that the ARIA is fixing.
16:02:27 [Ben]
MS: Not clear from looking at bug what the context is. May be better to file one bug to say "don't flag the ARIA."
16:03:44 [Ben]
EC: Don't file specious bugs to make a point because people won't get the point.
16:04:05 [Zakim]
-kliehm
16:04:06 [Ben]
if this really isn't an important issue, then I think it's counter-productive.
16:04:15 [Laura]
Laura has joined #html-a11y
16:04:22 [Ben]
JS: Think the sense is that it is an important issue because it could discourage proper use of ARIA.
16:05:36 [Ben]
MS: I think we've got everything on record here and that we do understand each other. Will return to discussion of this in TF. Don't think we'll get resolution today. Perhaps we should have some discussion on when we should take up issues like this of if a higher bar is needed.
16:05:38 [Zakim]
-jongunderson
16:05:56 [Ben]
zakim, close this item
16:05:56 [Zakim]
agendum 5 closed
16:05:57 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:05:58 [Zakim]
6. New Business [from Ben]
16:06:08 [Zakim]
-Rich
16:06:25 [Ben]
MS: Adjourned for this week. Same time next week.
16:06:28 [MikeSmith]
[adjourned]
16:06:29 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
16:06:29 [dboudreau]
i would if language wasn't such an issue, sorry :(
16:06:33 [Zakim]
-Gregory_Rosmaita
16:06:34 [dboudreau]
later
16:06:35 [Zakim]
-Cynthia_Shelly
16:06:36 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop me
16:06:37 [Zakim]
-Steve_Faulkner
16:06:38 [janina]
janina has left #html-a11y
16:06:39 [Zakim]
-Janina
16:06:40 [Marco_Ranon]
bye
16:06:41 [Zakim]
MikeSmith is being disconnected
16:06:45 [Zakim]
-MikeSmith
16:06:47 [Zakim]
-Eric_Carlson
16:06:51 [Zakim]
-Ben
16:06:54 [dboudreau]
-dboudreau
16:06:58 [Ben]
rrsagent, create minutes
16:06:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/17-html-a11y-minutes.html Ben
16:07:31 [Ben]
zakim, please part
16:07:31 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:07:32 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Michael_Cooper, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina, Cynthia_Shelly, Ben, Eric_Carlson, Steve_Faulkner, MikeSmith, jongunderson, Rich, kliehm,
16:07:35 [Zakim]
... +1.514.312.aaaa, Denis_Boudreau
16:07:40 [Ben]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:07:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/17-html-a11y-minutes.html Ben
16:08:59 [Ben]
rrsagent, please part
16:08:59 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items