SVG Working Group Teleconference

30 Sep 2009

See also: IRC log






<trackbot> Date: 30 September 2009

modules status

<ChrisL> scribenick: chrisl

(cam draws on whiteboard)

cm: to be published soon

1.1se, integration, color, filters

a bit later - transforms, compositing, vector effects

cm: need to find out status on mae and pin to clip
... params
... fonts on back burner for now, point to 1.1se

ds: no recent changes to params
... ds: pinned clip is miniscule, should be folded into something else
... (explains pinned clip for video)

ag: should go in clipping and masking

cm: do they participate in compositing?
... layout, no recent change but doing some prototyping software, kind of like spings and flexbox

ag: want to take stuff out of the normal painters flow for transforms
... by default its painters

cl: 3d transformed stuff is taken into a different tendering pass
... same as z-order actually

<shepazu> Pinned Clip spec -> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/pinnedclip/publish/SVGpinnedClip.html

cl: also the result of the main render pass has to be held as rgba since z-order passes could be behind as well as in front of it
... same mechanism could do z-order and 3d transform

ag: think of a preserve-3d attribute that says when to pull it out of ther main flow

cm: (draws example on board with interleaved z index)

ds: andrew emmons had a ssystem which only allows z to be set on groups
... layered g only allowed reordering within that group
... dont want to allow arbitrary setting of z throughout the document

cm: (tries to understand css stacking context. fails)

cl: (tries to explain it. fails)

z-index: no one understands me!

<shepazu> z-index: (tries to be consistent. fails)

zaki, mute z-index

ds: there is an accessibility interest here. for well structured documents, if we allow people to mix then grouping all labels and all objects does not work
... so putting all the text labels, one level up
... logical order vs. rendering order

cm: html docs have reasing order and rendering order tightly coupled
... not the same in svg due to rendering and transforms, grouping is different

ag: so how would transforms affect z-index

ds: want to talk about the connector element, i have an early proposal

cm: z-index is an ordering, not an absolute distance

ds: good to talk to emmons on layerd-g vs z-index. constrained and performant solution

cm: when you get the z index you store them and then work from lowest to highest index
... and keep track of which z index are not used or are empty

ag: will fold this into the transforms spec, helps with describing the rendering model

ds: suppose it was called z-transform

<heycam> cm: z-index is different in that it just changes layering of rendering, while the z-transform would place it somewhere in z space

<heycam> ... and thus become larger or smaller

<heycam> ... so i think they're pretty much orthogonal

<heycam> ... i would specify z-index as part of the rendering model in the base svg spec

<heycam> ... the 3d transforms spec wouldn't need to worry about it then

ds: lets not use css z-index

cl: and if ours has a different name, we also need to explain why z-index was not applicable to our rendering model

ds: explain exactly how it differs
... that way, they search o=for z-index and find z-layer

cm: who will write up the proposal

<scribe> ACTION: anthony to work with chris to write up a z-layer and 3d transform tendering proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-svg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-2678 - Work with chris to write up a z-layer and 3d transform tendering proposal [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-10-07].

ag: should we match up our names to the css names? theirs have changed

cm: css wg did not seem willing to change theirs

ag: happy to keep svg transforms moving forward

cm: their perspective tx could occur multiple times which was odd

<heycam> Scribe: Cameron

<heycam> ScribeNick: heycam

DS: last i remember anthony was going to write up a description of why our 3d matrix transforms have only 12 values and the css one has 16
... and about the compatibility with OpenVG

AG: to use theirs with openvg you'd need to do a bit more work

DS: is it a case where we have to choose to be compatible with openvg or opengl?
... and if so, and there's an easy translation from one to the other, is there really any incompatibility at all?
... and if there is, which one should we go with?
... it's obvious why they went with opengl, because of the hardware
... which one is a more compelling target in terms of market penetration?
... if we can only pick one or the other
... or is it easy to translate from one to the other?

AG: in the editor's draft that was updated a while ago i did put the equations that go from the 3x4 matrix to the 3x3, to pass to openvg

CM: and the extra three values from the 3x4 matrix just encode the perspective transform, which is supplied to openvg outside of the regular transform pipeline, right?

AG: right
... openvg is a 2d renderer, opengl is a 3d renderer
... so in one you need to preserve z information, in the other you don't

DS: so compatibility with opengl is the one we should go for?

CM: but you can't do as many strange transformations, right?
... if you just stay with the 3x4 one?

AG: i want to know what the use cases are for multiple perspective points
... the also allow perspective transforms to be strung together in the transform string, which doesn't really make sense either

<scribe> ACTION: Anthony to write up 3d transforms for svg model vs css model [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-svg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-2679 - Write up 3d transforms for svg model vs css model [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-10-07].

close action-2472

<trackbot> ACTION-2472 Fill in the currentTranslate/currentScale erratum to explicitly make using those attributes on inner <svg> elements undefined closed


<trackbot> ISSUE-2001 -- Prose describing <font> content model does not match DTD -- CLOSED

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2001

close action-2415

<trackbot> ACTION-2415 Check the Tiny 1.2 Chapter to see if there is any text in there that can be used for ISSUE-2001 closed

close action-2635

<trackbot> ACTION-2635 Add wording to both 1.1 2nd and the filters module that clarifies the usage of optional numbers for kernal unit length closed

<scribe> Scribe: Cameron

<scribe> ScribeNick: heycam

ISSUE: Inheritance of properties into SVG font glyphs not liked by all

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-2298 - Inheritance of properties into SVG font glyphs not liked by all ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2298/edit .

Requirement to copy into shadow trees for SVG font glyphs

ED: this is from the 'use' element:

<ed_> The effect of a 'use' element is as if the contents of the referenced element were deeply cloned into a separate non-exposed DOM tree which had the 'use' element as its parent and all of the 'use' element's ancestors as its higher-level ancestors. Because the cloned DOM tree is non-exposed, the SVG Document Object Model (DOM) only contains the 'use' element and its attributes. The SVG DOM does not show the referenced element's contents as children of 'use' element.

<ed_> For user agents that support Styling with CSS, the conceptual deep cloning of the referenced element into a non-exposed DOM tree also copies any property values resulting from the CSS cascade ([CSS2], chapter 6) on the referenced element and its contents. CSS2 selectors can be applied to the original (i.e., referenced) elements because they are part of the formal document structure. CSS2 selectors cannot be applied to the (conceptually) cloned DOM tree because its cont

<ed_> Property inheritance, however, works as if the referenced element had been textually included as a deeply cloned child of the 'use' element. The referenced element inherits properties from the 'use' element and the 'use' element's ancestors. An instance of a referenced element does not inherit properties from the referenced element's original parents.

<ed_> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/struct.html#UseElement

<ed_> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/fonts.html#GlyphElement

CM: there's a lot to reword
... to avoid talking about cloning trees

CL: that's why we said "conceptual clone"
... it's not an actual clone

JW: i agree with what roc saying it says clone, then you're better off actually implementing it as a clone because you'll find over time that doing it some other way will cause problems in the future
... that's been my observation as well

ED: but i don't see why that will be, since it's a non-exposed tree

JW: sure, but you have to synthesize cloning
... the spec says to pretend to clone, but not actually clone
... but if you've not got an actual clone, then there's always a risk that what you have won't behave like a clone would
... and various parts of the spec can rely on it being a clone

ED: we want to avoid clones

JW: if you're htinking of removing the word "clone", then specify exactly how it should behave, then it would solve the issue

ED: you still have the original subtree
... depending on how you represent the use, it's implementation specific
... the original nodes are there, but it doens't just work, you have to do other things like inheriting the style in

CL: if we say it's a clone, you have to say it's a clone and then do some other stuff
... "conceptually" implies it's not exactly

JW: if the spec says it has to behave like a clone, then you'll find bugs and coming to the conclusion that it would be an actual clone

CM: perhaps it'd be better to talk about it in terms of the element instance tree, nodes of which then behave like the nodes they're pointing to
... because you don't actually want clone-like behaviour
... you want to essentially clone all state about the referenced nodes, and then keep them in sync afterwards

JW: if you don't have a clone you don't have the overhead of restyling the referenced elements every time you paint it
... with clones you don't

ED: but with actual clones it has worse memory requirements

JW: probably restyling outweighs that

ED: i don't think that's true
... for the glyph case, i could maybe see that it would be better to not have the property inheritance into the shadow tree
... for use, on the other hand, i think that helps
... it would break content if we stopped doing that
... wouldn't be hard to see what opera is doing wrt memory usage
... e.g. creating some use elements with huge subtrees
... and see the memory usage of each
... i don't know exactly how they compare, but i'd imagine it would be quite a difference

<scribe> ACTION: cameron send out proposal for limited prefix processing in text/html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-svg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-2680 - Send out proposal for limited prefix processing in text/html [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-10-07].

CL: [explains the glyph inheritance problem to dbaron]

DB: my reaction is sort of that authors have expectations about how something called a "font" performs
... and they expect that to get accelerated by things like generating the bitmap for a glyph once per size
... essentially being what windows or osx does with a native font, in terms of performance

CL: right if you make an abritrarily complex thing with lots of content then it's going to be slower

DB: even for things like this, if you have to inherit stroke-width then it becomes a lot more complicated
... compared to if you could convert the svg font to an opentype font

CL: we have an optimization for that, the d="" attribute on <glyph>
... but if you've actually gone to produce a multicoloured glyph then it's going to be slower

DS: we understand that the landscape has shifted since we started with svg fonts
... in ASV that was pretty much the only way you could deliver a font for SVG content
... you would convert an otf into an svg font and use that
... but now we're going to have WOFF, etc.
... so the kinds of use cases you're going to use svg fonts for are different from those for woff etc.
... things such as richly styled glyphs
... so we're cool with giving people copious warnings about how what they're doing is going to affect performance

DB: i'd almost be more comfortable talking about it as a glyph replacement mechanism instead of a font mechanism

CL: postscript type 3 fonts also could have arbitrary power
... you got the benefits and the drawbacks of that

DS: authors should know why they're using svg fonts, what the implications of inheritng the style etc. are
... within that context, i don't feel that it makes sense to limit how somebody can style/inherit from the text element into font glyphs
... then it becomes less useful

JW: roc had a proposal for a magic value for color, that would reference back up out to the text element to resolve to the colour of the text referencing the font
... so there'd be no style resolution each time you painted the glyph

DS: that wouldn't work with existing content/UAs, but...

DB: there are ways we can optimize that we don't do now

DS: what if you wanted the stroke to be thicker or thinner? or not there at all?
... you just wanted fill and not stroke?
... what if you wanted to change whether the stroke was rounded on the corners or square?
... you can do that with any svg shape with 'use'

ED: i wonder how many of those real svg fonts with arbitrary child content and what they're using
... whether they actually use inherited property values

DS: james deering did a lot of stuff with fonts
... around 2003
... it'd be good to talk to people who work with svg fonts to find out uses

ED: point them to the wiki page too
... on the IG wiki

DB: the thing that seems difficult to me in svg fonts is how without svg fonts you have a nice layered system with css and markup up here, and they pass a bunch of information down to a graphics system that does fonts and font matching
... and what fonts you want to use
... svg fonts require a back thing reverses the normal layering of the system

CL: the reason we did that is because the people realised that others don't have the fonts they are using
... so they can either fall back to system fonts and break the layout
... or convert to curves (not text any more)
... so turning into a font left it as text
... interesting use cases are also manipulating the font in the dom

DB: one question is whether yo udo it for eveyr paint or whether you store that information
... andi f you're storing it, how much memory does it take up
... and if you're doing it for every paint, then how much time is it taking
... if we did the restyling efficiently, it probably wouldn't be a huge problem
... i don't know how long it takes to draw an svg shape compared to style computation
... so it's hard for me to say

DS: seems to me that most svg content using svg fonts is not going to be dynamically chanigng much of the svg content
... a lot of fonts people are going to be using are going to be woff, for the average text
... there are many optimizations you could do
... not like they're going to be changing the colour of every other glyph

DB: the amount we optimize something depends on the amount it's going to be used
... the assumption for svg fonts is that they're not going to be used much, so we're not going to worry about it
... so the main reason would be for acid3
... maybe this isn't the case but i wouldn't be surprised if we did whatever subset is needed for that and then stopped

CM: which is just woff-style fonts

DB: has webkit implemented more than that?
... given the other capabilities that are available, with opentype or woff, it seems like the rest of the use cases would be solved by having a mechanism for saying that a particular part of a graphic represents a certain piece of text
... rather than a piece of text representing the fonts
... it doesn't involve going backwards through the layers of the font system business

DS: for a system for building fonts in a web application, being able to use an inbrowser drawing program to draw a font
... so making the font editable is a use case
... animated fonts too, perhaps

DB: in terms of building a piece of software to do this, do you implement that by making the entire font matching system happen outside the graphics layer?
... so you don't need this layering violation?
... basically all of the features become harder when you're expecting it to be drawn at this weird time when you don't have the change to store the information

DS: i think it'd help us to have a diagram explaining how mozilla currently works, wrt this layering feedback

DB: it's changed substantially in the last couple of releases, and it's going to change more

DS: it'd be nice to understand the constraints under which we are working

DB: roc's probably a better person to talk to about this

JW: the other thing i wanted to talk about, related, is the 'use' element
... in mozilla we create an anonymous clone
... which is not how some other implementations do it

DB: there is stuff we could do to make the clone restyling faster
... the style rule matching for rule aiui is that they inherit from something different
... we could make it skip running selector matching

JW: it seems like you were saying that it shouldn't

DB: usemaps in html have similar issues in mozilla
... came up with a neat solution, which i think found it's way into html5
... where we do use one property on the area elements
... and that property is 'cursor'
... so we do the same thing that svg does with inheritance, for the cursor property, into imgmap areas
... so you can style the cursor on the area and you can style it on the img
... but that's relatively easy to implement, we can resolve style whenever we need it
... we can even do that for every mouse movement -- it's just one style property resolution

JW: but you're saying it how opera's implement would be a lot harder

DB: maybe
... right now we have this "multiple presentaitons" thing
... we sort of don't have a mapping from content nodes to frames (i.e., rendering objects)
... except we do, stuck off into a hash table
... so you need it per use mapping instead of per presentation mapping
... and stuffing pointers in the content elements

CM: could you specialise for just use?

DB: what you need is per use, not per presentation

[more talking about mozilla's internal style resolution]

scribe: our style data computation happens using what i've sometimes heard as a "lexicographic tree'< but not sure that's the right term
... optimizes strongly for a bunch of cases that are common in css
... i.e. relatively few properties are specified per rule
... so a css rule is in the abstract something that provides values for some small set of properties
... the thing that maintains the style data for an element we call a StyleContext
... there's this additional object in between them in the rule tree
... a node in the rule tree represents the sequence of rules the element matches
... each style context points to a node in the tree
... the path from the root of the tree to the node represents the rules that style context matches
... in cascading order, where each node points to a single rule
... then, beyond that, we group all the css properties into a bunch of structs
... we do a related group of properties at a time
... so e.g. all the ones in the font shorthand are in a single group
... then the structs can end up getting cached in the rule tree or in the style context tree
... if the values in the struct have no dependencies on inherited values, they can be cached in the rule tree
... e.g. no em units, no inheritance, etc.
... in the property groups, every group consists of all inherited or all non-inherited properties
... in the case of "nothing specified", the structs of non-inherited properties will get cached in the rule tree
... and shared between nodes
... in the edge case of inherited properties, they'll get shared between parent and child style contexts
... in both cases they use the same struct
... in the style context case, it'll copy pointers down the tree, since inheritance can be pretty deep
... but in the rule tree case we walk up the tree every time we need it

DS: [mentions an object oriented css proposal]
... [nicole sullivan]

CL: if you're cloning whole trees, you can take all of their style contexts?

DB: we would make a new style context in the clones, but point to the same rule node
... since the selector matching won't change
... so we get data sharing for many cases

CL: so the inheritance changes, since it has a new parent, which doesn't affect selcetors, but there's a ne wsource for inherited values

DB: when changing a value, we make new style contexts
... rule nodes and style contexts are immutable
... which provides good comparison when things change
... so if an element goes into :hover, and there are :hover selectors that might or might not match, we'll re-run selector matching on that element and its descendant
... this was a big problem IE/5/6/7 only handled hover on links
... when we started supporting hover on everything, other elements would colour on hover

DS: could pageX and pageY, offsetX and offsetY be defined usefully within svg?
... if so they should be generalised out and put in dom 3 events

<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/TR/cssom-view/#extensions-to-the-mouseevent-interface


SVGLength behaviour tightening

ED: i don't think value should preserve the units

CM: i think you always want to rely on assigning to .value working

ED: yes

JW: i agree

ED: allowing an invalid length in the middle of a length list seems strange

CM: yeah, i'll propose something else


JW: is opera looking at ref tests?

ED: yes, looks good
... not sure about writing our own ones yet, but using the existing ones

CM: will you provide a public harness to run the tests?

ED: i suspect so, but don't know

JW: there's a runner, written by Sylvain Pasche, it pretty much works in any implementation
... that you can run on a desktop
... so you should be able to test it
... it'll be slow, slower than mozilla's harness
... but it will give people the flexibility to run the tests in the release builds, and check results, rather than relying on vendors reporting their results
... there's a fair bit of work still to do on it
... from my pov the testing project that started at the hackathon week, that doug, plh, fantasai, mikesmith and myself were at, is now mainly waiting on mozilla to actually figure out how best to push their tests into w3c's repositroy
... quite tricky problems to be worked out there
... such as there are existing tests that we're running on a per-commit basis
... so we don't want to remove them from our tree, move them to w3c's, then start running the w3c tree
... the question is how can we keep them in both places and synchronize them?
... changes in moz local ones should propagate to the w3c one, and vice versa
... especially complicated when renaming and moving tests around
... we've also got to get consensus internally in moz on how to do this
... figure out how to, first, technical issues on getting the w3c test suite automatically run on our build machines
... then figure out how to sync up on that
... people responsible for doing this
... figuring out which failures that then crop up, what the causes are, what should be done about them
... an ongoing process, fair bit of work
... unclear how that should proceed
... all this sort of stuff that makes it not straightforward to chuck our tests in the w3c repository
... apart from the fact we haven't resolved whether we are using svn or hg, but probably we will end up using svn
... i believe we're also waiting for plh to source a more robust server for an actual public facing site
... instead of a testing server
... the things that came out of the meeting included that basically we won't go with a centralized system for running tests at the w3c
... simply because the resources that are needed for that are immense
... once you start to multiply all the OSes, browsers, versions of browsers, plugins installed, etc.
... it's a large number of different combinations you can have
... probably more atractive to have a test swarm type system
... external volunteers will run batches of tests
... so they might point the test harness to 20-30 tests
... which it will run, and send the results back to the w3c's results gathering thing
... then get another batch, etc.
... on a conversation with roc, doug, plh and myself, roc considered that it was a very low priority, especially at this stage for the w3c to be gathering results
... and creating the test swarm system to do this
... and given that there would be a w3c runner that could run the tests on end browsers, there'd be transparency for the results
... we could then rely on vendors being honest about their results
... which would save the whole complexity about the decentralized crowdsourced solution

DS: my take on it is twofold
... yes, transparency would help
... that would decrease the load, people could report their own results
... but one, we need to collect these results anyway
... part of our conformance testing
... and second, roc had proposed that they could post them on their own sites, which is fine, but then there's no way of harvesting that
... people should be able to trust the canonical results on the w3c site rather than individuals' sites
... who might have another agenda
... so we need them anyway for our (w3c's) processes
... third, people shouldn't have to search for results all over the web when they could come to a single place to find the results

JW: i'm sympathetic to having the w3c collect results, but at this stage it's not high priority for me personally
... once all this conference stuff is over i can get back to looking at testing
... figuring out a system for moz to move their tests to w3c, and running them, is the first big issue that needs to be tackled

DS: we don't need to solve all these things at once

JW: so there are still some things to be worked out
... about the test formats
... a lot of moz specific stuff in the tests
... and the formats rely on a few mozilla features, e.g. invalidation tests
... they require you to paint the window after everything is loaded/rendered
... so we have a specific event for that, not based on a timer, since that would make it very slow
... our tests have that sort of thing in it
... so the w3c versions might want to have that, plus a timer to fall back on
... or we may want to standardize that event
... changes would be required to the test formats which is another thing that needs to be worked out, what needs to be compatible with other browsers, and what moz needs internally

DS: there's a whole second part of this
... there's another set of problems
... MS submitted 7000 css 2.1 tests
... it's appreciated, but at the same time all those tests need to be reviewed
... the tests could be erroneous
... not actually testing the thing they mean to test
... they could accidentally align with some expected behaviour that's seen in IE that isn't per spec
... it could be that something about the test points out an ambiguity in the spec itself

JW: also the issue that that many tests, to be practical, need to be in an automated format

DS: the csswg cannot review all these tests
... it's time consuming doing review
... the part fantasai and i were specficialy working on was a tes treview system
... we have volunteers to do parts of the test suite, but using email, so it's hard for tracking
... couldn't say which were reviewed, which needed review, which had priority, etc.
... without doing a lot digging
... she was interested in creating a system so that volunteers could review tests systematically

CM: from the wider community?

DS: more within a company
... if we're making this system anyway, we should make it crowd sourceable
... so anyone can come in and review tests
... we could give them the more tests they reviewed and were accurate about, we could give them scores
... also, since we're doing that, providng an interface so that people could submit tests for what they think are undertested
... the review system would track the tests through different revisions
... a revision could have comments on it, when a new rev was uploaded, people could look at the diff as part of their review
... being able to move a test is good, since one test may apply to different test blocks

CL: the current way of doing it in css has multiple occurrences of a test in different parts of the report
... their report is the type of thing that should be generated

DS: we have similar problems
... the version is located in the test slide, e.g.
... which causes no end of problems
... we found we didn't know if the image had been updated or not
... having the metadata part of the image is worse than having a system that keeps a track of this
... the review system would also be a test submission system
... we wouldn't get the bulk through this, but parts of the spec people are interested in would get interest
... that tells us that people are trying to use specific features
... part of the goal of the crowdsouring review system is to connect more directly with the community, and get them involved in the process

JW: to become an actual accepted w3c official test, the reviewer needs to have his competence known
... it's still useful for random community people to do some sort of review
... if their pre-reviews of a consistently high quality, then that's a way to get people in later
... if two people say a test is bad, then it's likely it needs looking at
... if 5 people say it looks good, then it can have percolated up to one of the official reviewers

DS: so is this group willing to go to reftests for the bulk of its tests?
... if so, jwatt should write up exactly what we want

JW: for those people not familiar with those, they should become so
... that is partly waiting on me
... there's some docs in the wiki, but concrete examples are necessary
... the w3c testing wiki needs a lot of work
... overall i think the test hackathon rocked, a major step forward
... the conformance testing is important, but the huge step forward is the interop testing
... in one or two years from now we can get all the major browser vendors running each others' tests

DS: it also saves each browser vendor reinventing the wheel with tests
... it decreases costs, since they don't need as many people just dedicated to runnign tests

JW: as long as everyone pulls their weight
... re too many tests, it's important that wide coverage and deep coverage is good
... but need to minimize duplication
... the length of time they take to run is a big factor in how useful they are
... it impacts their development cycles quite substantially
... the bigger the testing time, the bigger window there is to find regressions

AG: once the reftests have been reviewed, there'll be some process to package them up for members to get?

JW: they'd be in the repository
... we could create zips too

RESOLUTION: we'll move to using reftests as soon as is feasible


DS: we have in the past talked about this
... i want to briefly go over some use cases for connectors
... and details
... we've avoided connectors because you can graphically represent something connecting something else
... but it doesn't have a logical connection
... there are a lot of use cases for things that are logically connected
... circuit diagrams, flow chart diagrams, any kind of node-edge graph
... we've avoided them in the same way as avoiding default symbols
... so connectors could also be used for representing roads, or any kinds of routes through some thing
... i think the class of uses for these things is large

ED: xlink:href on every element?

DS: there are a number of approaches
... i think the basic idea is that there are two aspects to it
... one, a logical connection, between two elements which represent two different objects
... and one is a physical connection
... an obvious thing people would like to do is [draws on board]
... [two circles connected by a line, moving one circle should make the line follow it]
... that could be done in the very simplest case, but i don't think people are going to want to do something where the line has to wrap around another shape, for example
... implementors aren't going to want to solve that case
... edge routing
... but i think there is still a lot of utility in straight line connections
... in the future, potentially allowing the author to say "go through this point" when routing

CL: this needs to be a new curve type?

DS: could be just straight lines
... solve many use cases, not all

CL: curves that pass through particular points we've come up against before, so perhaps we want to add them

DS: making a rendering element is one aspect of the problem
... making a logical one is another aspect
... so are these connections directed, undirected?
... that's part of the logical aspect of it
... another part is "what is the relationship itself"
... e.g. does that mean parent--child relationship, or what
... that might be represented as a form of metadata, like rdf
... or it might be, for a UI, some textual equivalent of that equivalent
... if i'm following a map, so you walk from the subway stop to the building
... maybe the metadata is "walk from from subway stop to building"
... how would you express that? maybe you'd have a <title> element
... how do you represent the connector
... i'm positing that we need a 'connector' element
... what characterstics does it have?
... it has a from and a to
... so a connector, as i see it, is a special form of path that doesn't have a fill
... what i'm thinking is that it would take path syntax so that if you wanted to do your own routing, you could say this is what it looks like
... another way i thought of doing this would be to have role="connector" on a path
... and that would mean logically that it is a connector
... if connector weren't implemented, you could represent it as a path
... what is the role of a connector? either as a separate element or a path
... it's to present to a user to go from one thing to another
... pretend we are in a flow chart, and we're navigating around it

[draws on board]

scribe: if you're in one node, and you want to navigate to another node that is connected from that one
... the tilte of connectors could be read out, for example
... and the user could choose
... or maybe it's a popup that lets the user see what the relationship is
... in terms of navigating documents in a logical order, a blind person could query the connector to find out where it's going
... so they could step through a complex diagram
... one use case i've seen for this is that they wanted to have all of their wiring diagrams for cars as svg files
... apparently in japan, wiring diagrams for cars are done in svg
... so when a mechanic is trying to sort out "is this circuit live or not", we set up a little animation to show them if they clicked a button which connectors are active
... so in this scenario you might write a state machine and enable/disable certain connectors
... it would be an accessible way to present these diagrams
... right now, if i were navigating these elements, in 1.2T we could use the nav-* properties
... but they only solve a physical case
... with the connectors they define implicit navigation options
... maybe its role would indicate the direction of the connector
... so there's also a visual aspect of the problem
... we should reuse existing path syntax, so if a person wants to do custom routing they can
... failing that, it would just be a direct line
... but when they use a direct line, dragging this element, the line would follow
... so either you would take advantage of the auto routing, which would be a straight line in the first version, or you would write your own path
... but you always get the logical connection
... in later versions you could provide some way to tell it to do routing
... there are two problems with diagrams like this
... one is the line routing
... the second is the node placement
... we're also not going to solve that, unless it gets solved in the bounds of some layout algorithm
... e.g. cameron's layout might take care of that

CL: you're not just going to point at an object, but then you to say i'm going from this point to this other point

AG: you could specify the endpoints as bounding box percentages

DS: i'm not sure that's going be satisfying
... e.g. on a diamond shape, you don't want connecting lines going to one of its sides
... so not necessarily the shortest path
... we've already thought of the idea of svg point elements
... it could act as an anchor point
... so what if we defined the anchor points of children of the element

AG: how do you associate the connectors with an object?
... i was thinking they might be a child

DS: can't be a child of two elements though
... they can be in their own block somewhere
... you can name the point you want to connect to
... the default might be to choose the shortest path between the possible anchor points on the shapes
... you could name these anchors and identify them explicitly

AG: could you have free floating svg:points?

DS: in future versions

AG: many-to-many connections?

DS: no, just one-to-one connections

CM: i wonder if you ever want navigation that is different from what the connections indicate

<shepazu> as far as semantics of relationships, you should be able to extract a triple from this diagram

<shepazu> as far as navigation goes, they don't ahve to render, might be a better way to define meaningful navigation with titles/descs

<shepazu> rather than using nav-next/-prev attributes

RESOLUTION: We'll consider the connector proposal

<scribe> ACTION: Doug to write up the connector proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-svg-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-2681 - Write up the connector proposal [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-10-08].


CL: our charter expires in april
... we have 6 months charter period left
... we need to see what we will have achieved by that time
... usually the aim is for a charter to be circulated before the current one ends
... it's coming to the point where we show what we did during the charter period
... also we have the roadmap document that needs a refresh

DS: we've talked about major revisions to the language
... we've helped direct the discussion for svg in html

CL: we've engaged more browser vendors

DS: we've already talked about planning on doing the modules until CR, parking them, making sure they integrate together, then publishing independent modules as they are applicable to 1.1 or 1.2T
... and folding them in to svg 2.0
... as a single spec
... so i think that's something we can talk about to people at svg open
... whenever we publish something, we should update the timetable on the wiki
... we need to make the home page better


CM: should we go back to two telcons per week?

DS: we could try one hour on one day another 1.5 hours on another day

CM: maybe not two telcons per week but one followed by working time

<shepazu> Resolution: we will update the timeline in the wiki whenever we publish a new WD

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: anthony to work with chris to write up a z-layer and 3d transform tendering proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Anthony to write up 3d transforms for svg model vs css model [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: cameron send out proposal for limited prefix processing in text/html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Doug to write up the connector proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.135 (CVS log)
$Date: 2009/10/01 03:08:14 $

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WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: AG CL ChrisL DB ISSUE JW cm ds ed ed_ fat_tony heycam joined jwatt left scribenick shepazu svg trackbot z-index
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        <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary
        <dbooth> Present+ amy

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<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 30 Sep 2009
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: anthony cameron doug

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