See also: IRC log
<janina> muted? the d@@m phone never rang!
<oedipus> trackbot, status?
<janina> OK, I'll call in. I want to talk with ya'all!
<inserted> ScribeNick: oedipus
JOC: debate over spec: what wg draft versus markup language draft -- seems that publishing a good idea by and large -- will give us a touchpoint for futher work with HTML WG; should be PWD within a month
<inserted> ScribeNick: Joshue
GJR: The big news was that GJR be restored to the issue tracker.
<inserted> ScribeNick: oedipus
GJR: sam ruby asked that i be
restored to the issues team; and suggested that i log my D
element suggestion as an issue
... other thing is debate over WHAT WG draft and MikeSmith's
experimental draft which is simply the markup language
<inserted> scribenick: Joshue
JOC: I also think the markup draft is a good idea.
GJR: I am in favour of it being
published in a normative recommendation track.
... That is Mike S's doc 'HTML: The Markup Language'.
... What not publish the declarative part and then other docs
relating to the APIs and events etc.
... It come down to do we publish the inherited docs from the
WHAGWG, or do we keep the markup version of the doc
alive?
... A new declarative doc would give us all a common basis to
work off.
... This would give a good overview of the bare bones markup
language.
<inserted> ScribeNick: oedipus
JS: history - only 3 of us at
wai-cg call wednesday afternoon
... me, Jan Richards, Loretta G-R -- asked me ideas about
moving forward, wanted to hear from them
... hashed their perspective of issues in informal conversation
via phone
<Joshue> +q to ask if it was the case in HTML 4 that earlier markup languages actually needed the alt just to parse the doc correctly?
JS: case for leaving @alt
mandatory for validation is probably ok, but shaky -- HTML4
grok showed mandatory elements have to be there for parser to
work (can't make case that essential for tech to work);
important for accessibility; validity doesn't prove
accessibility, so what is function of @alt -- a nudge to
authoring community -- you need to know what this is, how to
use it, and to deploy it; if fail validation because of missing
alt, and accessibility gain
... authoring tool view: what about the author who doesn't give
a damn and who dismisss all popups that ask for alt values;
what should the resultant markup be when author refuses to
provide @alt values
<Joshue> JOC: Will the parsing of HTML 5 be dependent on alt being present?
JS: one suggestion: have @alt and
caption to associate with ARIA -- either or or -- one of 3 has
to be there: @alt, @noalt (author didn't do anything, error
correection kicks in), ARIA binding to associate text elsewhere
on page -- if one of those 3 is not there, fails
validation
... will be discussed on wednesday -
<Zakim> Joshue, you wanted to ask if it was the case in HTML 4 that earlier markup languages actually needed the alt just to parse the doc correctly?
JOC: really interesting point about parsing of HTML4; is that case in HTML5?
JS: for document to be correctly parsed every attribute but alt is parsed; @alt is an isolated case
JOC: interesting
... noalt idea has value if conditions met: if useful for the
user to know there has been no alt assigned; UA hueristics
could repair, but have to work out what nature of repair should
be
... even alt value "photo" better than nothing; need consensus
on noalt -- i think ok
... if that layer is not necessary using null alt value; user
experience when @noalt is used that is the question
<Joshue> JOC: The nature of the handling of <no alt> has to be worked out.
JS: my understanding is that
there would trigger some special handling by UA -- signal to UA
as to how it came to be in markup
... either or between @alt and aria-labelledby -- ok
alternatives; what guidance do we give and how is noalt
expressed
GJR: as a WG our stance is native
accessibility over accessibilty overlays; so we need to attack
problem so it can be fixed using tools provided by the markup
language, rather than give authors an easy out by letting other
accessmonkey their pages with ARIA
... use of both in the end is necessary as far as i can
tell
JS: still on fence regarding third option - aria-based markup
GJR: no, i applaud the use of ARIA and acknowledge it is more fine grained that what is currently available, but i perceive that as a spur to engineering a superior terse descriptor native to HTML
<inserted> ScribeNick: Joshue
GJR: HTML is supposed to be the
lingua franca of the web.
... Therefore native accessibility is the desired
solution.
... ARIA etc can be used for repair and error handling.
... Focusing ARIA on the widgets that HTML cannot provide.
<inserted> ScribeNick: oedipus
JS: comfortable with ARIA-based
markup
... understand hesitancy to open the door -- what don't know is
how much aria will make it natively in HTML5
GJR: that is one of the things that jumped out at me about the markup language version of the spec -- there are common core attribute sets, and one of them is for ARIA
<inserted> ScribeNick: Joshue
GJR: It was clearer in the markup
language of the spec that came from the PWD that was submitted
to W3C.
... One of the components was ARIA.
<oedipus> GJR: will include pointer in minutes announcement
<oedipus> JS: ok
GJR: One of the concerns that I
have in HTML swallowing ARIA, is the people doing the
incorporation are not savvy about some of the subtleties of
ARIA.
... We need to make sure that we do this correctly, inheritance
and so on.
JOC: I also would be concerned about this.
<inserted> ScribeNick: oedipus
JS: don't know if reason to say no - no direct objection GJR?
<inserted> ScribeNick: Joshue
JOC: the degree to which HTML 5
will support or incorporate ARIA is still up in the air.
... To some degree ARIA does today what HTML 5 only promises to
do. There is a potentially a dissonance therefore.
<inserted> ScribeNick: oedipus
JS: expect any iteration of technology that there would be enhancements -- what kind of content support in version 1.0 -- elaborate on that set in future iteration; difficulties with backwards compat with LGR's plan, but would jump out at author to the benefit of all; natural and reasonable thing to expect; mechanism aria-labelledby not available in HTML4, but now available via ARIA, might be worth allowing that in -- expect support for ARIA will grow
<Joshue> JOC: Well in order to let the uptake for ARIA increase then maybe it is a good idea to let ARIA do some of the things that HTML would do?
<Joshue> +q
JS: seemed to me a future-looking that isn't in realm of science fiction
<inserted> ScribeNick: oedipus
<inserted> ScribeNick: oedipus
JS: comfortable to @noalt because similar to future looking approach for error handling
<inserted> ScribeNick: Joshue
JOC: Using <no alt> could be a good foundation then.
GJR: I don't have a problem with
<no alt>. I would be more comfortable if we could get the
role att into img.
... If the role is layout, I can set my AT to skip that
stuff.
... I proposed to the XHTML 2 that the for att be added to the
core attributes collection..
<oedipus> to the core attributes collection
GJR: Its universally available
basically.
... I want to use the for/id model that was pioneered for
label.
... You could use the for att to point at the element that
contains a bibliographic element. I wanted low level redundancy
built in.
... This is another factor to consider.
JS: Yes, if?
GJR: Yes.
... Saying you can use ARIA and ignore the accessibility
features basically.
... Considering the target data is 2012, I am being a little
too cautious maybe.
... Use of either an alt value or aria-labelled by? yes or
no.
... I want something native, both.
JS: You may be a minority.
GJR: I know.
... Many authors complain about the burden that HTML gives to
them.
JS: Will an either/or not lessen
the burden.
... The more complex is the greater. Both and is loading on not
taking away.
GJR: I am saying the requirement is in HTML.
<oedipus> GJR: either or if aria-labelledby is bolted into HTML natively if aria properly wired in
JS: We have to make sure that it is properly wired in, put your ideas into the caveat.
<inserted> ScribeNick: oedipus
JOC: hit on a lot of stuff;
really understand GJR's point about native accessibility in
markup languages, but JS made good point of either or if aria
incorporated into HTML so that it is native; makes sense to
give aria higher profile and get authors and developers
familiar with its proper usage
... JS hit nail on head;
GJR: no problem with forward thinking but still need to attend to backwards compatibility -- it's in the HTML4 charter
JS: summarize: ok with proposal, but devil in the details
<Joshue> JOC: Sounds like a plan.
JS: goal for wednesday -- agreement on principle and then have individuals address the devil in the details; would like to have agreement on basic principle
JOC: plus 1
GJR: plus 1
JS: will put out post that
agreement on basic outline; details to be worked out; discuss
on wednesday, then set task of setting out the details
... think we are on a good path
JOC: agree
ADJOURNED
trackbot this is WAI_PF(HTML)
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