IRC log of pf on 2009-01-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:00:25 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #pf
15:00:25 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/30-pf-irc
15:00:50 [janina]
zakim, this is pf
15:00:50 [Zakim]
janina, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML)10:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be pf".
15:01:28 [janina]
zakim, call janina
15:01:28 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I don't know what conference this is
15:01:38 [janina]
zakim, this is #pf
15:01:38 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I do not see a conference named '#pf' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:01:46 [janina]
zakim, this is pf
15:01:46 [Zakim]
janina, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML)10:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be pf".
15:02:06 [janina]
zakim, this will be pf
15:02:06 [Zakim]
ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML)10:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
15:02:19 [janina]
zakim, call janina
15:02:19 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
15:02:20 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML)10:00AM has now started
15:02:21 [Zakim]
+Janina
15:03:00 [Zakim]
-Janina
15:03:01 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML)10:00AM has ended
15:03:01 [Zakim]
Attendees were Janina
15:03:14 [janina]
zakim, call janina
15:03:14 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
15:03:16 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML)10:00AM has now started
15:03:18 [Zakim]
+Janina
15:04:03 [Zakim]
-Janina
15:04:05 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML)10:00AM has ended
15:04:05 [Zakim]
Attendees were Janina
15:04:28 [janina]
zakim, this will be pf
15:04:28 [Zakim]
ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML)10:00AM scheduled to start 4 minutes ago
15:04:47 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML)10:00AM has now started
15:04:51 [Joshue]
Joshue has joined #pf
15:04:54 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmaita
15:05:00 [oedipus]
oedipus has joined #pf
15:05:25 [janina]
zakim, call janina
15:05:25 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
15:05:27 [Zakim]
+Janina
15:05:31 [oedipus]
zakim, who is here?
15:05:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina (muted)
15:05:32 [Zakim]
On IRC I see oedipus, Joshue, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, trackbot
15:05:51 [janina]
muted? the d@@m phone never rang!
15:05:54 [oedipus]
trackbot, status?
15:06:03 [janina]
OK, I'll call in. I want to talk with ya'all!
15:06:11 [Zakim]
-Janina
15:06:36 [Zakim]
+Janina_Sajka
15:07:14 [Joshue]
zakim, code?
15:07:14 [Zakim]
the conference code is 92473 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Joshue
15:08:12 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:08:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/30-pf-minutes.html oedipus
15:08:15 [Zakim]
+??P25
15:08:28 [Joshue]
zakim, ??P25 is Joshue
15:08:28 [Zakim]
+Joshue; got it
15:16:33 [oedipus]
rrsagent, set logs world
15:16:53 [oedipus]
chair: Janina_Sajka
15:17:20 [oedipus]
TOPIC: HTML WG Call 2009-01-29
15:18:19 [oedipus]
JOC: debate over spec: what wg draft versus markup language draft -- seems that publishing a good idea by and large -- will give us a touchpoint for futher work with HTML WG; should be PWD within a month
15:19:13 [Joshue]
GJR: The big news was that GJR be restored to the issue tracker.
15:19:20 [oedipus]
GJR: sam ruby asked that i be restored to the issues team; and suggested that i log my D element suggestion as an issue
15:19:55 [oedipus]
GJR: other thing is debate over WHAT WG draft and MikeSmith's experimental draft which is simply the markup language
15:20:14 [Joshue]
JOC: I also think the markup draft is a good idea.
15:20:35 [Joshue]
GJR: I am in favour of it being published in a normative recommendation track.
15:20:57 [Joshue]
GJR: That is Mike S's doc 'HTML: The Markup Language'.
15:21:23 [Joshue]
GJR: What not publish the declarative part and then other docs relating to the APIs and events etc.
15:22:27 [Joshue]
GJR: It come down to do we publish the inherited docs from the WHAGWG, or do we keep the markup version of the doc alive?
15:23:00 [Joshue]
GJR: A new declarative doc would give us all a common basis to work off.
15:23:38 [Joshue]
GJR: This would give a good overview of the bare bones markup language.
15:23:56 [oedipus]
i/JOC: I also/scribenick: Joshue
15:24:08 [oedipus]
TOPIC: @alt proposal
15:24:28 [oedipus]
JS: history - only 3 of us at wai-cg call wednesday afternoon
15:25:19 [oedipus]
JS: me, Jan Richards, Loretta G-R -- asked me ideas about moving forward, wanted to hear from them
15:25:39 [oedipus]
JS: hashed their perspective of issues in informal conversation via phone
15:27:16 [Joshue]
+q to ask if it was the case in HTML 4 that earlier markup languages actually needed the alt just to parse the doc correctly?
15:27:29 [oedipus]
JS: case for leaving @alt mandatory for validation is probably ok, but shaky -- HTML4 grok showed mandatory elements have to be there for parser to work (can't make case that essential for tech to work); important for accessibility; validity doesn't prove accessibility, so what is function of @alt -- a nudge to authoring community -- you need to know what this is, how to use it, and to deploy it; if fail validation because of missing alt, and accessibility gain
15:28:14 [oedipus]
JS: authoring tool view: what about the author who doesn't give a damn and who dismisss all popups that ask for alt values; what should the resultant markup be when author refuses to provide @alt values
15:28:24 [Joshue]
JOC: Will the parsing of HTML 5 be dependent on alt being present?
15:29:39 [oedipus]
JS: one suggestion: have @alt and caption to associate with ARIA -- either or or -- one of 3 has to be there: @alt, @noalt (author didn't do anything, error correection kicks in), ARIA binding to associate text elsewhere on page -- if one of those 3 is not there, fails validation
15:29:48 [oedipus]
JS: will be discussed on wednesday -
15:29:50 [oedipus]
q?
15:29:55 [oedipus]
ack Jo
15:29:55 [Zakim]
Joshue, you wanted to ask if it was the case in HTML 4 that earlier markup languages actually needed the alt just to parse the doc correctly?
15:30:12 [oedipus]
JOC: really interesting point about parsing of HTML4; is that case in HTML5?
15:30:37 [oedipus]
JS: for document to be correctly parsed every attribute but alt is parsed; @alt is an isolated case
15:30:43 [oedipus]
JOC: interesting
15:31:41 [oedipus]
JOC: noalt idea has value if conditions met: if useful for the user to know there has been no alt assigned; UA hueristics could repair, but have to work out what nature of repair should be
15:32:07 [oedipus]
JOC: even alt value "photo" better than nothing; need consensus on noalt -- i think ok
15:32:53 [oedipus]
JOC: if that layer is not necessary using null alt value; user experience when @noalt is used that is the question
15:33:20 [Joshue]
JOC: The nature of the handling of <no alt> has to be worked out.
15:33:22 [oedipus]
JS: my understanding is that there would trigger some special handling by UA -- signal to UA as to how it came to be in markup
15:34:01 [oedipus]
JS: either or between @alt and aria-labelledby -- ok alternatives; what guidance do we give and how is noalt expressed
15:35:01 [oedipus]
GJR: as a WG our stance is native accessibility over accessibilty overlays; so we need to attack problem so it can be fixed using tools provided by the markup language, rather than give authors an easy out by letting other accessmonkey their pages with ARIA
15:35:23 [oedipus]
GJR: use of both in the end is necessary as far as i can tell
15:35:44 [oedipus]
JS: still on fence regarding third option - aria-based markup
15:37:18 [oedipus]
GJR: no, i applaud the use of ARIA and acknowledge it is more fine grained that what is currently available, but i perceive that as a spur to engineering a superior terse descriptor native to HTML
15:38:04 [Joshue]
GJR: HTML is supposed to be the lingua franca of the web.
15:38:26 [Joshue]
GJR: Therefore native accessibility is the desired solution.
15:38:40 [Joshue]
GJR: ARIA etc can be used for repair and error handling.
15:39:01 [Joshue]
GJR: Focusing ARIA on the widgets that HTML cannot provide.
15:39:35 [oedipus]
JS: comfortable with ARIA-based markup
15:40:05 [oedipus]
JS: understand hesitancy to open the door -- what don't know is how much aria will make it natively in HTML5
15:40:39 [oedipus]
GJR: that is one of the things that jumped out at me about the markup language version of the spec -- there are common core attribute sets, and one of them is for ARIA
15:41:10 [Joshue]
GJR: It was clearer in the markup language of the spec that came from the PWD that was submitted to W3C.
15:41:49 [Joshue]
GJR: One of the components was ARIA.
15:41:55 [oedipus]
meeting: PFWG HTML Issues Caucus
15:42:01 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:42:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/30-pf-minutes.html oedipus
15:42:29 [oedipus]
GJR: will include pointer in minutes announcement
15:42:33 [oedipus]
JS: ok
15:43:32 [Joshue]
GJR: One of the concerns that I have in HTML swallowing ARIA, is the people doing the incorporation are not savvy about some of the subtleties of ARIA.
15:43:46 [Joshue]
GJR: We need to make sure that we do this correctly, inheritance and so on.
15:44:12 [Joshue]
JOC: I also would be concerned about this.
15:44:19 [oedipus]
JS: don't know if reason to say no - no direct objection GJR?
15:44:33 [Joshue]
JOC: the degree to which HTML 5 will support or incorporate ARIA is still up in the air.
15:45:40 [Joshue]
JOC: To some degree ARIA does today what HTML 5 only promises to do. There is a potentially a dissonance therefore.
15:46:36 [oedipus]
JS: expect any iteration of technology that there would be enhancements -- what kind of content support in version 1.0 -- elaborate on that set in future iteration; difficulties with backwards compat with LGR's plan, but would jump out at author to the benefit of all; natural and reasonable thing to expect; mechanism aria-labelledby not available in HTML4, but now available via ARIA, might be worth allowing that in -- expect support for ARIA will grow
15:46:40 [oedipus]
q+
15:46:55 [Joshue]
JOC: Well in order to let the uptake for ARIA increase then maybe it is a good idea to let ARIA do some of the things that HTML would do?
15:46:58 [Joshue]
+q
15:47:01 [oedipus]
JS: seemed to me a future-looking that isn't in realm of science fiction
15:47:24 [oedipus]
JS: comfortable to @noalt because similar to future looking approach for error handling
15:47:29 [Joshue]
JOC: Using <no alt> could be a good foundation then.
15:47:31 [oedipus]
ack oe
15:48:04 [Joshue]
GJR: I don't have a problem with <no alt>. I would be more comfortable if we could get the role att into img.
15:48:18 [Joshue]
GJR: If the role is layout, I can set my AT to skip that stuff.
15:48:56 [Joshue]
GJR: I proposed to the XHTML 2 that the for att be added to ??.
15:49:15 [oedipus]
to the core attributes collection
15:49:20 [Joshue]
s/??/the core attributes collection.
15:49:42 [Joshue]
GJR: Its universally available basically.
15:49:57 [Joshue]
GJR: I want to use the for/id model that was pioneered for label.
15:50:32 [Joshue]
GJR: You could use the for att to point at the element that contains a bibliographic element. I wanted low level redundancy built in.
15:50:49 [Joshue]
GJR: This is another factor to consider.
15:50:57 [Joshue]
JS: Yes, if?
15:51:00 [Joshue]
GJR: Yes.
15:51:31 [Joshue]
GJR: Saying you can use ARIA and ignore the accessibility features basically.
15:52:06 [Joshue]
GJR: Considering the target data is 2012, I am being a little too cautious maybe.
15:52:48 [Joshue]
GJR: Use of either an alt value or aria-labelled by? yes or no.
15:52:55 [Joshue]
GJR: I want something, both.
15:53:12 [Joshue]
s/something/something native
15:53:30 [Joshue]
JS: You may be a minority.
15:53:31 [Joshue]
GJR: I know.
15:53:58 [Joshue]
GJR: Many authors complain about the burden that HTML gives to them.
15:54:09 [Joshue]
JS: Will an either/or not lessen the burden.
15:54:34 [Joshue]
JS: The more complex is the greater. Both and is loading on not taking away.
15:54:54 [Joshue]
GJR: I am saying the requirement is in HTML.
15:55:48 [oedipus]
GJR: either or if aria-labelledby is bolted into HTML natively if aria properly wired in
15:55:54 [Joshue]
JS: We have to make sure that it is properly wired in, put your ideas into the caveat.
15:56:16 [oedipus]
q?
15:56:21 [oedipus]
ack jo
15:57:33 [oedipus]
JOC: hit on a lot of stuff; really understand GJR's point about native accessibility in markup languages, but JS made good point of either or if aria incorporated into HTML so that it is native; makes sense to give aria higher profile and get authors and developers familiar with its proper usage
15:57:46 [oedipus]
JOC: JS hit nail on head;
15:58:47 [oedipus]
GJR: no problem with forward thinking but still need to attend to backwards compatibility -- it's in hte HTML4 charter
15:58:57 [oedipus]
s/hte/the
15:59:02 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/30-pf-minutes.html oedipus
15:59:55 [oedipus]
JS: summarize: ok with proposal, but devil in the details
16:00:19 [Joshue]
JOC: Sounds like a plan.
16:00:40 [oedipus]
JS: goal for wednesday -- agreement on principle and then have individuals address the devil in the details; would like to have agreement on basic principle
16:00:43 [oedipus]
JOC: plus 1
16:00:46 [oedipus]
GJR: plus 1
16:01:19 [oedipus]
JS: will put out post that agreement on basic outline; details to be worked out; discuss on wednesday, then set task of setting out the details
16:01:27 [oedipus]
JS: think we are on a good path
16:01:30 [oedipus]
JOC: agree
16:02:01 [Joshue]
Joshue has left #pf
16:02:03 [oedipus]
ADJOURNED
16:02:08 [Zakim]
-Joshue
16:02:40 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/30-pf-minutes.html oedipus
16:03:55 [oedipus]
trackbot this is WAI_PF(HTML)
16:05:13 [Zakim]
-Gregory_Rosmaita
16:05:14 [Zakim]
-Janina_Sajka
16:05:14 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML)10:00AM has ended
16:05:15 [Zakim]
Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina, Janina_Sajka, Joshue
16:05:24 [oedipus]
zakim, please part
16:05:24 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #pf
16:05:33 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/30-pf-minutes.html oedipus
16:07:27 [oedipus]
i/JOC: debate over/ScribeNick: oedipus
16:07:33 [oedipus]
i/GJR: The big/ScribeNick: Joshue
16:07:39 [oedipus]
i/GJR: sam ruby/ScribeNick: oedipus
16:07:44 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:07:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/30-pf-minutes.html oedipus
16:09:00 [oedipus]
i/JS: history/ScribeNick: oedipus
16:09:05 [oedipus]
i/GJR: HTML is supposed/ScribeNick: Joshue
16:09:09 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:09:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/30-pf-minutes.html oedipus
16:09:35 [oedipus]
i/JS: comfortable/ScribeNick: oedipus
16:09:39 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:09:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/30-pf-minutes.html oedipus
16:11:08 [oedipus]
i/JOC: Using/ScribeNick: Joshue
16:11:14 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:11:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/30-pf-minutes.html oedipus
16:11:53 [oedipus]
i/JOC: hit on a lot/ScribeNick: oedipus
16:11:55 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:11:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/30-pf-minutes.html oedipus
16:15:58 [oedipus]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2009JanMar/0212.html
16:16:01 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:16:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/30-pf-minutes.html oedipus
16:30:08 [oedipus]
i/JS: don't know/ScribeNick: oedipus
16:30:08 [oedipus]
i/JOC: the degree/ScribeNick: Joshue
16:30:08 [oedipus]
i/JS: expect any iteration/ScribeNick: oedipus
16:30:12 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:30:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/30-pf-minutes.html oedipus
16:30:54 [oedipus]
i/JS: comfortable/ScribeNick: oedipus
16:30:56 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:30:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/30-pf-minutes.html oedipus
16:31:53 [oedipus]
i/JS: comfortable with/ScribeNick: oedipus
16:31:55 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/30-pf-minutes.html oedipus
16:32:32 [oedipus]
i/GJR: It was clearer/ScribeNick: Joshue
16:32:34 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/30-pf-minutes.html oedipus
17:06:42 [oedipus]
rrsagent, please part
17:06:43 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items