IRC log of rif on 2009-01-06
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 15:48:57 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #rif
- 15:48:57 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/06-rif-irc
- 15:49:16 [csma]
- Meeting: RIF telecon 6 January 2009
- 15:49:25 [csma]
- Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
- 15:50:07 [csma]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jan/0001.html
- 15:50:59 [csma]
- csma has changed the topic to: RIF telecon 6 January, agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jan/0001.html
- 15:51:52 [csma]
- Regrets: MohamedZergaoui, LeoraMorgenstern, PaulVincent
- 15:52:14 [csma]
- rrsagent, make log public
- 15:52:21 [csma]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 15:52:21 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/06-rif-minutes.html csma
- 15:52:34 [csma]
- zakim, reset agenda
- 15:52:34 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'reset agenda', csma
- 15:52:39 [csma]
- zakim, clear agenda
- 15:52:41 [Zakim]
- agenda cleared
- 15:52:56 [csma]
- agendum administration
- 15:53:04 [csma]
- agendum+ Admin
- 15:53:14 [csma]
- agendum+ Liaison
- 15:53:24 [csma]
- agendum+ Public Comments
- 15:53:37 [csma]
- agendum+ Action review
- 15:53:46 [csma]
- agendum+ F2F12
- 15:53:54 [csma]
- agendum+ DTB
- 15:54:04 [csma]
- agendum+ ACTION-546
- 15:54:14 [csma]
- agendum+ Test Cases
- 15:54:21 [Harold]
- Harold has joined #rif
- 15:54:22 [csma]
- Agendum+ AOB
- 15:54:40 [csma]
- Hi Harold!
- 15:58:36 [DaveReynolds]
- DaveReynolds has joined #rif
- 16:00:02 [josb]
- josb has joined #rif
- 16:00:59 [Zakim]
- SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
- 16:00:59 [Zakim]
- + +39.047.101.aaaa
- 16:01:04 [Zakim]
- +??P50
- 16:01:05 [Zakim]
- -??P50
- 16:01:05 [Zakim]
- +??P52
- 16:01:06 [Zakim]
- +??P50
- 16:02:08 [StellaMitchell]
- StellaMitchell has joined #rif
- 16:02:27 [csma]
- zakim, ??P50 is me
- 16:02:27 [Zakim]
- +csma; got it
- 16:02:34 [csma]
- ack ??P50
- 16:02:42 [Hassan]
- Hassan has joined #rif
- 16:02:54 [Zakim]
- +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
- 16:03:13 [Zakim]
- +[IBM]
- 16:03:15 [StellaMitchell]
- zakim, ibm is temporarily me
- 16:03:15 [Zakim]
- +StellaMitchell; got it
- 16:03:26 [Michael_Kifer]
- Michael_Kifer has joined #rif
- 16:03:35 [Zakim]
- +ChrisW
- 16:03:36 [ChrisW]
- ChrisW has joined #rif
- 16:03:52 [ChrisW]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 16:03:54 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see csma, josb, DaveReynolds, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), StellaMitchell, ChrisW
- 16:04:27 [csma]
- Harold, Can you scribe today?
- 16:04:56 [AxelPolleres]
- AxelPolleres has joined #rif
- 16:04:57 [Zakim]
- +Sandro
- 16:05:08 [Harold]
- sorry, no, im still in another meeting.
- 16:05:20 [Zakim]
- + +1.631.833.aabb
- 16:05:32 [Michael_Kifer]
- zakim, aabb is me
- 16:05:32 [Zakim]
- +Michael_Kifer; got it
- 16:05:48 [ChrisW]
- scribe: Michael_Kifer
- 16:06:14 [csma]
- zakim, next item
- 16:06:14 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from csma]
- 16:06:15 [Zakim]
- +??P69
- 16:07:19 [csma]
- PROPOSED: to approve the minutes of telecon December 9
- 16:07:21 [csma]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Dec/att-0092/RIF_Telecon_9-Dec-08.htm
- 16:07:55 [ChrisW]
- PROPOSED: Accept Dec 16 minutes
- 16:08:01 [csma]
- RESOLVED: to approve the minutes of telecon December 9
- 16:08:12 [Zakim]
- + +1.503.533.aacc
- 16:08:14 [ChrisW]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Dec/att-0096/RIF_Telecon_16-Dec-08.html
- 16:08:15 [csma]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Dec/att-0096/RIF_Telecon_16-Dec-08.html
- 16:08:24 [Gary_Hallmark]
- Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
- 16:08:27 [ChrisW]
- RESOLVED: Accept Dec 16 minutes
- 16:08:44 [csma]
- PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of December 23
- 16:08:55 [csma]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Dec/att-0125/2008-12-23-rif-minutes.html
- 16:09:12 [ChrisW]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 16:09:12 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see csma, josb, DaveReynolds, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), StellaMitchell, ChrisW, Sandro, Michael_Kifer, AxelPolleres, +1.503.533.aacc
- 16:09:17 [csma]
- RESOLVED: to accept the minutres of December 23
- 16:09:43 [ChrisW]
- zakim, aacc is GaryHallmark
- 16:09:44 [Zakim]
- +GaryHallmark; got it
- 16:09:53 [csma]
- next item
- 16:10:29 [csma]
- zakim, close item 2
- 16:10:29 [Zakim]
- agendum 2, Liaison, closed
- 16:10:30 [Zakim]
- I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 16:10:32 [Zakim]
- 3. Public Comments [from csma]
- 16:10:40 [csma]
- next item
- 16:15:08 [csma]
- zakim, close item 3
- 16:15:08 [Zakim]
- agendum 3, Public Comments, closed
- 16:15:09 [Zakim]
- I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 16:15:10 [Zakim]
- 4. Action review [from csma]
- 16:15:13 [csma]
- next item
- 16:20:38 [ChrisW]
- i've updated: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_TK2
- 16:20:48 [ChrisW]
- AXEL and Michael, please take a look
- 16:21:05 [ChrisW]
- action: Chris to send response to TK2
- 16:21:05 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-678 - Send response to TK2 [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-01-13].
- 16:21:57 [csma]
- next item
- 16:22:56 [sandro]
- action: sandro open registration poll for f2f12
- 16:22:57 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-679 - Open registration poll for f2f12 [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-01-13].
- 16:23:23 [Zakim]
- +[NRCC]
- 16:24:11 [csma]
- next item
- 16:25:15 [Michael_Kifer]
- *PROPOSED:* add isLiteralOfType and isLiteralNotOfType (based on resolution of issue-79) and remove specific type-named guards (e.g. isInteger, isNotInteger).
- 16:25:28 [sandro]
- +1
- 16:25:29 [josb]
- q+
- 16:25:36 [csma]
- ack josb
- 16:25:43 [AxelPolleres]
- q+
- 16:26:41 [Michael_Kifer]
- Jos: not clear how this proposed resolution is related to issue 79.
- 16:27:00 [Michael_Kifer]
- The main idea in 79 was a change in the semantics.
- 16:27:16 [csma]
- PROPOSED: Change all negative guards to return true only for literals that are not of the type, false for non-literals (closing ISSUE-79).
- 16:27:17 [josb]
- yes
- 16:27:48 [csma]
- Ack axel
- 16:28:40 [DaveReynolds]
- q+
- 16:28:47 [Michael_Kifer]
- Jos: include the semantics explicitly in the resolution on isLiteralNotOfType etc.
- 16:28:47 [csma]
- ack dave
- 16:29:59 [josb]
- *PROPOSED:* add isLiteralOfType and isLiteralNotOfType (Changing guards to return true only for literals that are not of the type, false for non-literals) and remove specific type-named guards (e.g. isInteger, isNotInteger).
- 16:30:45 [josb]
- +1
- 16:30:48 [DaveReynolds]
- *PROPOSED:* add isLiteralOfType and isLiteralNotOfType (Changing guards to return true only for literals that are/are not of the type, false for non-literals) and remove specific type-named guards (e.g. isInteger, isNotInteger).
- 16:30:48 [AxelPolleres]
- just let me confirm, we wanted "isLiteralNotOfType" really not "isNotLiteralOfType", yes?
- 16:30:48 [Hassan]
- +1
- 16:30:52 [Michael_Kifer]
- +1
- 16:31:17 [josb]
- Axel: the phrasing in the proposal is what we want
- 16:31:37 [AxelPolleres]
- +1 (right, rethought it)
- 16:31:39 [sandro]
- (BTW, please drop the "*" around proposed. It wont be recognized by the scripts that way.)
- 16:31:45 [Harold]
- +1
- 16:31:46 [sandro]
- +1
- 16:32:23 [csma]
- PROPOSED: add isLiteralOfType and isLiteralNotOfType (Changing guards to return true only for literals that are/are not of the type, false for non-literals) and remove specific type-named guards (e.g. isInteger, isNotInteger).
- 16:32:46 [DaveReynolds]
- q+
- 16:33:25 [csma]
- PROPOSED: add isLiteralOfType and isLiteralNotOfType (Changing guards to return true only for literals that are/are not of the type, false for non-literals) and remove specific type-named guards (e.g. isInteger, isNotInteger). Closing ISSUE-79.
- 16:33:30 [DaveReynolds]
- q-
- 16:33:34 [csma]
- ack dave
- 16:34:53 [Michael_Kifer]
- ISSUE-79 closed + membership/non-membership part of ISSUE-80
- 16:34:56 [csma]
- PROPOSED: add isLiteralOfType and isLiteralNotOfType (Changing guards to return true only for literals that are/are not of the type, false for non-literals) and remove specific type-named guards (e.g. isInteger, isNotInteger). Closing ISSUE-79 and the membership/non-membership part of ISSUE-80.
- 16:35:31 [csma]
- RESOLVED: add isLiteralOfType and isLiteralNotOfType (Changing guards to return true only for literals that are/are not of the type, false for non-literals) and remove specific type-named guards (e.g. isInteger, isNotInteger). Closing ISSUE-79 and the membership/non-membership part of ISSUE-80.
- 16:36:01 [ChrisW]
- action: Chris to close issue-79 and update issue-80 to reflect closing of membership part
- 16:36:01 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-680 - Close issue-79 and update issue-80 to reflect closing of membership part [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-01-13].
- 16:36:18 [ChrisW]
- action: axel to update DTB to reflect resolution on guards
- 16:36:18 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-681 - Update DTB to reflect resolution on guards [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-01-13].
- 16:38:54 [josb]
- Dave, could you point to the place where you would need them?
- 16:39:42 [ChrisW]
- AXEL: can you scribe next week?
- 16:39:45 [AxelPolleres]
- q+
- 16:40:13 [csma]
- ack axel
- 16:40:41 [Michael_Kifer]
- Dave: Wants LiteralsNotEqual
- 16:43:04 [josb]
- q+
- 16:43:11 [DaveReynolds]
- Jos: See http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/OWLRL#Rules_for_supported_datatypes for the inequality rules in the absence of the proposed builtins and just one line in the simplified version.
- 16:43:17 [csma]
- ack jos
- 16:43:19 [Michael_Kifer]
- and LiteralsEqual (just for symmetry, but not strictly necessary)
- 16:44:16 [AxelPolleres]
- CHRIS: I am not 100% sure for next week, I will be in vienna, need to check phone availability, but normally, it should work. will there be a teleconf? (people travelling to F2F12?)
- 16:45:42 [josb]
- error :- ?lt1[owl:differentFrom->?lt2] and
- 16:45:44 [josb]
- ?l1=?l2
- 16:47:07 [josb]
- nevermind, this does not work
- 16:47:30 [josb]
- q+
- 16:48:31 [sandro]
- s/CHRIS:/Chris, /
- 16:49:27 [ChrisW]
- axel - never mind, no telecon next week!
- 16:50:17 [josb]
- q+
- 16:51:19 [ChrisW]
- i am about to close action 666
- 16:51:24 [ChrisW]
- prepare yourselves
- 16:52:17 [DaveReynolds]
- q+
- 16:52:45 [ChrisW]
- rrsagent, pointer
- 16:52:45 [RRSAgent]
- See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/06-rif-irc#T16-52-45
- 16:53:03 [josb]
- q?
- 16:53:11 [csma]
- ack jos
- 16:54:08 [Michael_Kifer]
- Jos: not a good idea to have equal/not equal for individual data types
- 16:54:32 [AxelPolleres]
- I think we just need the mapping of operators (lt, gt, eq, neq) for datatypes to built-ins, just as XPAth/XQuery seem to do it implicitly...
- 16:54:55 [Michael_Kifer]
- Jos: are u proposing LiteralNotEqual/LiteralEqual?
- 16:55:04 [csma]
- ack dave
- 16:55:58 [josb]
- I am saying we don't need individual equal/not-equal for datatypes if we have generic (not-)equal predicates
- 16:57:23 [Michael_Kifer]
- yes, I agree. Individual type-based builtins are problematic
- 16:57:55 [josb]
- If we go for generic we should remove individual
- 16:58:04 [josb]
- I am still leaning towards keeping the individual ones, though
- 17:00:36 [csma]
- PROPOSED: add LiteralNotEqual/LiteralEqual predicates and remove the equality/inequality predicates for individual data types.
- 17:01:06 [DaveReynolds]
- I would prefer to keep the individual ones as well, what's the argument for removing them?
- 17:02:53 [Michael_Kifer]
- Axel: predicates DateEqual are not expressible through LiteralEqual
- 17:03:39 [Michael_Kifer]
- Jos: we just need to adjust LiteralEqual
- 17:05:14 [AxelPolleres]
- sounds nice!
- 17:05:28 [csma]
- PROPOSED: add LiteralNotEqual/LiteralEqual predicates and remove the equality/inequality predicates for individual data types.
- 17:05:50 [josb]
- F2F
- 17:06:21 [Michael_Kifer]
- Axel: we need to write the semantics of these predicates precisely
- 17:06:31 [josb]
- Axel: I think I know how we can make it extensible
- 17:07:00 [josb]
- Do we really need a straw proposal?
- 17:07:52 [josb]
- q+
- 17:07:59 [csma]
- ack jos
- 17:09:50 [josb]
- late afternoon should work? would be morning in Vienna
- 17:10:20 [josb]
- oops, is the other way around
- 17:10:42 [Zakim]
- -DaveReynolds
- 17:10:54 [sandro]
- issue-81?
- 17:10:54 [trackbot]
- ISSUE-81 -- Support for additional OWL-RL datatype -- OPEN
- 17:10:54 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/81
- 17:11:18 [AxelPolleres]
- summary: what it boils down to is that the semantics of the following built-ins needs to be worded such that it is parametric with respect tot the supported datatypes: isLiteralOfType, isLiteralNotOfType, isLiteralEqual, isLiteralNotEqual
- 17:11:48 [josb]
- Axel: for isLiteralOfType, DT would be a parameter
- 17:12:14 [josb]
- for (not-)equal, we don't need the parameter; indeed, it would not be very generic in that case
- 17:12:33 [sandro]
- PROPOSED: Add to RIF Core all the XML Schema datatypes in OWL-RL (as listed in http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/81)
- 17:12:55 [josb]
- q+
- 17:13:01 [csma]
- ack jos
- 17:13:03 [Michael_Kifer]
- minua the last 3?
- 17:13:15 [Michael_Kifer]
- s/minua/minus/
- 17:14:07 [Michael_Kifer]
- Jos: issue with integer/float data types in OWL
- 17:14:09 [sandro]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/OWLRL#Datatypes_supported
- 17:15:47 [sandro]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-profiles/#Feature_Overview_3
- 17:15:55 [csma]
- Jos would object to owl:real, xsd:hexBinary, xsd:base64Binary unless technical issue resolved
- 17:16:06 [josb]
- q+
- 17:16:36 [AxelPolleres]
- jos: all others are ok?
- 17:17:13 [sandro]
- Jos: I would prefer we change our datatypes to work the OWL way (non-disjoint value spaces)
- 17:18:49 [csma]
- ACTION: Jos to edit ISSUE-81 to explain the technical reason that make owl:real, xsd:hexBinary, xsd:base64Binary incompatible with RIF current data types
- 17:18:49 [trackbot]
- Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Jos
- 17:18:49 [trackbot]
- Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij2, jderoo)
- 17:18:57 [josb]
- Axel: xsd:hexBinary, xsd:base64Binary, owl:real are problematic
- 17:19:15 [csma]
- ACTION: Jdebruij2 to edit ISSUE-81 to explain the technical reason that make owl:real, xsd:hexBinary, xsd:base64Binary incompatible with RIF current data types
- 17:19:15 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-682 - Edit ISSUE-81 to explain the technical reason that make owl:real, xsd:hexBinary, xsd:base64Binary incompatible with RIF current data types [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-01-13].
- 17:19:33 [josb]
- q+
- 17:20:42 [josb]
- q?
- 17:21:24 [csma]
- ack jos
- 17:22:32 [sandro]
- Sandro: So the implementation burden of "the owl way" is like this: when you compare an int and real for equality, you can't just say "no", you have to convert to compatible numeric types and then compare.
- 17:22:55 [csma]
- ACTION: jdebruij2 to ask Dave to have a look at ISSUE-81 before F2F12
- 17:22:56 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-683 - Ask Dave to have a look at ISSUE-81 before F2F12 [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-01-13].
- 17:23:22 [csma]
- next item
- 17:23:40 [josb]
- s/ISSUE-81/implementation burden for non-overlapping numeric types, related to ISSUE-81/
- 17:23:45 [csma]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/actions/546
- 17:25:52 [csma]
- next item
- 17:26:27 [csma]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jan/0000.html
- 17:27:09 [Hassan]
- I prefer it!
- 17:27:20 [josb]
- yes, it is
- 17:27:28 [AxelPolleres]
- +1
- 17:27:57 [csma]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/actions/581
- 17:28:56 [Michael_Kifer]
- No telecon on Jan 13
- 17:28:56 [AxelPolleres]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Chaining_strategy_numeric-add_1, ...
- 17:29:22 [Michael_Kifer]
- But there will be a telecon on Jan 20
- 17:30:15 [Zakim]
- -[NRCC]
- 17:30:39 [Hassan]
- +1 to adjourn
- 17:30:49 [Zakim]
- -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
- 17:30:52 [Zakim]
- -StellaMitchell
- 17:30:54 [Zakim]
- -GaryHallmark
- 17:31:01 [Zakim]
- -josb
- 17:31:13 [csma]
- zakim, list attendees
- 17:31:13 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been +39.047.101.aaaa, josb, DaveReynolds, csma, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, StellaMitchell, ChrisW, Sandro, +1.631.833.aabb, Michael_Kifer, AxelPolleres,
- 17:31:16 [Zakim]
- ... +1.503.533.aacc, GaryHallmark, [NRCC]
- 17:31:27 [csma]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 17:31:27 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/06-rif-minutes.html csma
- 17:32:21 [Zakim]
- -AxelPolleres
- 17:32:48 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Kifer
- 17:34:35 [ChrisW]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 17:34:35 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see csma, ChrisW, Sandro
- 17:35:14 [ChrisW]
- zakim, who is talking?
- 17:35:26 [Zakim]
- ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: csma (74%), Sandro (46%)
- 17:35:30 [ChrisW]
- zakim, mute sandro
- 17:35:30 [Zakim]
- Sandro should now be muted
- 17:36:34 [ChrisW]
- zakim, unmute sandro
- 17:36:34 [Zakim]
- Sandro should no longer be muted
- 17:37:18 [Zakim]
- -csma
- 17:37:27 [Zakim]
- -ChrisW
- 17:43:08 [Zakim]
- -Sandro
- 17:43:10 [Zakim]
- SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
- 17:43:11 [Zakim]
- Attendees were +39.047.101.aaaa, josb, DaveReynolds, csma, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, StellaMitchell, ChrisW, Sandro, +1.631.833.aabb, Michael_Kifer, AxelPolleres, +1.503.533.aacc,
- 17:43:14 [Zakim]
- ... GaryHallmark, [NRCC]
- 17:57:53 [csma]
- csma has left #rif
- 18:02:27 [Hassan]
- Hassan has joined #rif
- 19:37:26 [sandro]
- sandro has joined #rif