<Dylan> Hi marc

<Dylan> Hi Zakim

:-)

<Ian> can you hear me?

Ian, I cannot hear you

can you hear?

<Ian> new mic same old problems

<Ian> why is this always so difficult?!

can you connect via plain old phone?

Hi Felix

<felix> hi marc

Ian, any chance to have your voice?

felix, can you join on the phone please?

<Ian> can hear

<Ian> trying now

<Ian> zakim sees my phone though?

<Ian> hmm

<scribe> Scribe: marc

<scribe> ScribeNick: marc

next item

<Ian> ok, last mic was also broken!

<Ian> brand new mic now..

<Ian> 3rd mic!!

all contributions have materialised except for Meta 1, Meta 2 and Global 0

so I suggest to re-distribute these

volunteers?

I can do meta 1

Enrico volunteers for meta 2

Felix volunteers for Global 0

scribe: by 15 August

next item

<felix> General remarks:

<felix> The main question for things that are not directly related to emotion/affect is: shall we specify them ourself or advise the use of similar xml specifications (make or buy)?

<felix> arguments to use existing specifications:

<felix> It is not core to Emotion, so not worth us inventing something new

<felix> Many specifications exist

<felix> Using a format from one of our "neighbors" will help foster closer integration of our groups / standards

<Ian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-emotion/2008Jul/att-0006/00-part

<felix> html is a ML to format docs in browsers [2].

<felix> SMIL (Synchronized Multimedia Integration Language) smil is a markup to format streaming media shows [3].

<felix> EMMA (Extensible MultiModal Annotation Markup Language) emma is a markup describe multimodal interaction [4].

I suggest to look at InkML for the sampling mechanism

Ian: suggests not to re-invent the wheel, but use other elements where they exist and are not specific to emotion
... asks how commonly used SMIL or EMMA are

Paolo: describes use of EMMA with speech server for semantic recognition results for call centers etc.
... but original idea was to use in multimodal environments, and only few projects currently seem to do that.

Ian: asks what people think of using html:a element

Felix: states that the element has too many attributes that we don't need
... so suggestion by Christian Peter to reuse the names of elements/attributes from existing languages but not the actual elements/namespaces.

Ian: so that becomes a third option.

<felix> <emotion> <category name="pleasure"/>

<felix> <media src="file:///mySound.pcm"/ type="audio/basic"> </emotion>

<Bjoern> agrees with "target" over src

MArc: asks if we can use "target" rather than "src" because it seems to make more sense

Paolo: if we reuse the element, we should also reuse the attribute names
... if we invent our own element, then we are free to choose names

<Ian> i like URI

<Ian> yeah why?

Paolo: in SSML they had "audio", now switch to "media", and the attribute can be called either "src" or "uri"

Marc: likes "uri"

Ian: is "uri" maybe a protected keyword? it seems odd that no-one uses that.

<Bjoern> Bjoern does not consider URI intuitive...

Ian: it seems we like Christian's idea

Björn: it seems we want to re-use things but not completely stick to them.

So we could use this as a guideline for the detailed discussion: being inspired by existing specs but only use what we really need.

Why do we need the mime type?

Paolo: it brings us the type of data that the URI points to

Felix: it will be very important for automatic processing, and everybody now has it

maybe that's true

agrees it adds value, as long as it stays optional

Felix agrees

Ian: that brings up an important point: which things are mandatory and which are optional.

last time we tried this (with the HUMAINE EARL) we ended up having everything optional.

Ian: so every tag should have at least one mandatory attribute.

<Bjoern> we certainly have to leave several items optional, non-the-less...

So felix and ian can work out a concrete example on that basis.

Can we move on to Links 2?

Felix presents.

This also covers Core 8 "Emotion timing".

Felix: again, we should take the best of EMMA and SMIL that is useful for us, but not take everything.

<felix> <utterance id="utt1" emma:start="1231314123"/>

<felix> <nounPhrase id="np1" emma:start="1231316123" emma:duration="3s"/>

<felix> <emoml:emotion emma:start="2s" emma:duration="5s">

<felix> <emoml:category set="everyday" name="pleasure"/>

<felix> <emoml:start emma:time-ref-uri="#utt1"

<felix> emma:time-ref-anchor-point="start"

<felix> emma:offset-to-start="2s" />

<felix> <emoml:end emma:time-ref-uri="#np1"

<felix> emma:time-ref-anchor-point="end"

<felix> emma:offset-to-start="0" />

<felix> </emoml:emotion>

<Bjoern> also prefers intuitive dates.

I find absolute time in milliseconds since 1 Jan 1970 unintuitive

scribe: definitely I would like to avoid mixing these with human-readable times.

Enrico: agrees

Felix: couldn't we just leave that to the user

Ian: my feeling is we do not need to refer to dates
... but it shoudl be fine to tie our annotation to a zero-point
... so we need only relative times, not absolute times.
... also, I think we shouldn't use "30s" etc., because it is not machine-readable.

<Bjoern> thinks that absolute times might make sense for us in a surveillance application?

Paolo: in EMMA, there are both kinds of timing, absolute and relative
... but in the end, having absolute timing was not actually useful for emma.

<Ian> http://www.w3.org/TR/SMIL3/smil-timing.html#Timing-ClockValueSyntax

<Ian> 50:00:10.25 = 50 hours, 10 seconds and 250 milliseconds

Felix: I don't see the need to force our users into a specific way of describing time
... it is not relevant for emotion

Marc: this is an example of a very general point: interoperability.

Dylan: for what I can see, we are fine with relative time, e.g. since the start of a video

<Bjoern> Bjoern sees applications for absolute time: broad scale media retrieval, surveillance, ...

Felix: emotional diary would need absolute time

Dylan: disagrees

The question to me is, how complicated do we want to make this?

We see with EMMA how complicated it becomes when we want to make it powerful.

Felix: time is running up

Ian: let's continue discussing via the mailing list.

Links 3: semantics of links

Ian presents.

Ian: felix made the point that this is similar to our discussion on categories.
... we may have too many custom sets if we allow people to bring in their own categories of semantics of links.
... I would suggest to distinguish clearly between the actual link and its semantics.
... they are conceptually distinct.

We need to think about the relation between the three requirements (can we have a time wihtout a link, etc.)

Ian: in a concrete example, which attributes are optional, which are mandatory, what depends on what etc.

Felix: concrete examples will be more complex

Where should this be discussed?

Felix: let's have this in the public list, this is the heart of the matter.

<Bjoern> agrees

Björn: suggests the f2f in Cannes is the time to discuss details,

scribe: lets try to raise all issues by then.

Let's continue by email.

<felix> good bye

<Bjoern> bye

<Dylan01> quit

<Dylan01> logout

<scribe> ACTION: Marc to specify Meta 1 - due 15 August [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-emotion-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-28 - specify Meta 1 [on Marc Schröder - due 2008-08-15].

<scribe> ACTION: Enrico to specify Meta 2 - due 15 August [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-emotion-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-29 - specify Meta 2 [on Enrico Zovato - due 2008-08-15].

<scribe> ACTION: Felix to specify Global 0 - due 15 August [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-emotion-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-30 - specify Global 0 [on Felix Burkhardt - due 2008-08-15].

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133  of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Found Scribe: marc
Inferring ScribeNick: marc
Found ScribeNick: marc

WARNING: No "Topic:" lines found.

Default Present: +049892892aaaa, marc, Bjoern, +035321425aabb, Paolo_Baggia, Enrico_Zovato, Dylan, Felix_Burkhardt, Ian_Wilson
Present: Dylan Ian Bjoern Paolo Enrico Felix Marc
Regrets: Andy Jianhua
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-emotion/2008Jul/0007.html
Got date from IRC log name: 31 Jul 2008
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-emotion-minutes.html
People with action items: enrico felix marc

WARNING: No "Topic: ..." lines found!  
Resulting HTML may have an empty (invalid) <ol>...</ol>.

Explanation: "Topic: ..." lines are used to indicate the start of 
new discussion topics or agenda items, such as:
<dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report