13:53:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #emotion
13:53:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-emotion-irc
13:53:37 <marc> zakim, this will be INC_EMOXG
13:53:37 <Zakim> ok, marc; I see INC_EMOXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
13:55:04 <marc> agenda+ briefly review list of initial spec suggestions that have materialised
13:55:20 <marc> agenda+ start discussing Links to the rest of the world spec suggestions
13:56:38 <Dylan> Hi marc
13:56:47 <Dylan> Hi Zakim
13:57:20 <marc> :-)
13:57:48 <Zakim> INC_EMOXG()10:00AM has now started
13:57:55 <Zakim> +??P3
13:58:15 <Ian> Zakim, I am +??P3
13:58:15 <Zakim> sorry, Ian, I do not see a party named '+??P3'
13:58:16 <Zakim> +??P4
13:58:35 <Zakim> + +049892892aaaa
13:58:35 <Ian> can you hear me?
13:58:46 <marc> zakim, I am ??P4
13:58:46 <Zakim> +marc; got it
13:59:16 <Bjoern> zakim, I am aaaa
13:59:16 <Zakim> +Bjoern; got it
13:59:17 <marc> Ian, I cannot hear you
13:59:21 <marc> can you hear?
13:59:26 <Zakim> + +035321425aabb
13:59:37 <Ian> new mic  same old problems
13:59:46 <Ian> why is this always so difficult?!
14:00:14 <marc> can you connect via plain old phone?
14:01:11 <felix> felix has joined #emotion
14:01:16 <marc> zakim, who is online?
14:01:16 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, marc.
14:01:23 <marc> zakim, who is here?
14:01:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, marc, Bjoern, +035321425aabb
14:01:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see felix, RRSAgent, Zakim, Bjoern, Ian, marc, Dylan, trackbot
14:02:05 <marc> Hi Felix
14:02:13 <Zakim> +Paolo_Baggia,Laura_Ricotti
14:03:17 <paolo> paolo has joined #emotion
14:03:32 <paolo> zakim, who is here?
14:03:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, marc, Bjoern, +035321425aabb, Paolo_Baggia,Laura_Ricotti
14:03:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see paolo, felix, RRSAgent, Zakim, Bjoern, Ian, marc, Dylan, trackbot
14:03:38 <felix> hi marc
14:03:51 <marc> Ian, any chance to have your voice?
14:03:54 <paolo> zakim, Paolo_Baggia,Laura_Ricotti is Paolo_Baggia,Enrico_Zovato
14:03:54 <Zakim> +Paolo_Baggia,Enrico_Zovato; got it
14:04:03 <paolo> zakim, who is here?
14:04:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, marc, Bjoern, +035321425aabb, Paolo_Baggia,Enrico_Zovato
14:04:04 <marc> felix, can you join on the phone please?
14:04:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see paolo, felix, RRSAgent, Zakim, Bjoern, Ian, marc, Dylan, trackbot
14:04:13 <marc> zakim, aabb is Dylan
14:04:23 <Zakim> +Dylan; got it
14:04:48 <paolo> zakim, ??P3 is Ian_Wilson
14:04:53 <Zakim> +Felix_Burkhardt
14:04:55 <Zakim> +Ian_Wilson; got it
14:05:09 <paolo> zakim, who is here?
14:05:11 <Ian> can hear
14:05:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ian_Wilson, marc, Bjoern, Dylan, Paolo_Baggia,Enrico_Zovato, Felix_Burkhardt
14:05:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see paolo, felix, RRSAgent, Zakim, Bjoern, Ian, marc, Dylan, trackbot
14:05:27 <Ian> trying now
14:05:42 <Ian> zakim sees my phone though?
14:05:46 <Ian> hmm
14:07:17 <marc> Scribe: marc
14:07:22 <marc> ScribeNick: marc
14:07:40 <marc> next item
14:08:14 <Ian> ok, last mic was also broken!
14:08:23 <Ian> brand new mic now..
14:09:12 <Ian> 3rd mic!!
14:09:48 <marc> all contributions have materialised except for Meta 1, Meta 2 and Global 0
14:09:56 <marc> so I suggest to re-distribute these
14:10:12 <marc> volunteers?
14:10:33 <marc> I can do meta 1
14:10:49 <marc> Enrico volunteers for meta 2
14:11:09 <marc> Felix volunteers for Global 0
14:11:55 <marc> ... by 15 August
14:12:14 <marc> next item
14:12:49 <felix> General remarks:
14:12:59 <felix> The main question for things that are not directly related to emotion/affect is: shall we specify them ourself or advise the use of similar xml specifications (make or buy)?
14:13:31 <felix> arguments to use existing specifications:
14:13:47 <felix> It is not core to Emotion, so not worth us inventing something new
14:14:06 <felix> Many specifications exist
14:14:15 <felix> Using a format from one of our "neighbors" will help foster closer integration of our groups / standards
14:14:31 <Ian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-emotion/2008Jul/att-0006/00-part
14:15:56 <felix> html is a ML to format docs in browsers [2].
14:16:19 <felix> SMIL (Synchronized Multimedia Integration Language) smil is a markup to format streaming media shows [3].
14:16:45 <felix> EMMA (Extensible MultiModal Annotation Markup Language) emma is a markup describe multimodal interaction [4].
14:17:53 <marc> I suggest to look at InkML for the sampling mechanism
14:20:26 <marc> Ian: suggests not to re-invent the wheel, but use other elements where they exist and are not specific to emotion
14:20:56 <marc> Ian: asks how commonly used SMIL or EMMA are
14:21:20 <marc> Paolo: describes use of EMMA with speech server for semantic recognition results for call centers etc.
14:21:47 <marc> ... but original idea was to use in multimodal environments, and only few projects currently seem to do that.
14:22:34 <marc> Ian: asks what people think of using html:a element
14:22:57 <marc> Felix: states that the element has too many attributes that we don't need
14:23:34 <marc> ...so suggestion by Christian Peter to reuse the names of elements/attributes from existing languages but not the actual elements/namespaces.
14:23:43 <marc> Ian: so that becomes a third option.
14:24:27 <felix>  <emotion> <category name="pleasure"/>
14:24:35 <felix> <media src="file:///mySound.pcm"/ type="audio/basic"> </emotion>
14:27:34 <Bjoern> agrees with "target" over src
14:27:38 <marc> MArc: asks if we can use "target" rather than "src" because it seems to make more sense
14:28:00 <marc> Paolo: if we reuse the element, we should also reuse the attribute names
14:28:20 <marc> ... if we invent our own element, then we are free to choose names
14:28:41 <Ian> i like URI
14:28:48 <Ian> yeah why?
14:28:58 <marc> ... in SSML they had "audio", now switch to "media", and the attribute can be called either "src" or "uri"
14:29:02 <marc> Marc: likes "uri"
14:29:08 <Dylan01> Dylan01 has joined #emotion
14:29:23 <marc> Ian: is "uri" maybe a protected keyword? it seems odd that no-one uses that.
14:29:26 <Bjoern> Bjoern does not consider URI intuitive...
14:30:10 <devans6> devans6 has joined #emotion
14:30:40 <marc> Ian: it seems we like Christian's idea
14:30:53 <Dylan01> Dylan01 has joined #emotion
14:30:53 <marc> Björn: it seems we want to re-use things but not completely stick to them.
14:32:03 <marc> So we could use this as a guideline for the detailed discussion: being inspired by existing specs but only use what we really need.
14:33:11 <marc> Why do we need the mime type?
14:33:35 <marc> Paolo: it brings us the type of data that the URI points to
14:33:49 <marc> Felix: it will be very important for automatic processing, and everybody now has it
14:34:07 <marc> maybe that's true
14:34:35 <marc> agrees it adds value, as long as it stays optional
14:34:39 <marc> Felix agrees
14:35:08 <marc> Ian: that brings up an important point: which things are mandatory and which are optional.
14:35:53 <marc> last time we tried this (with the HUMAINE EARL) we ended up having everything optional.
14:36:08 <marc> Ian: so every tag should have at least one mandatory attribute.
14:36:32 <Bjoern> we certainly have to leave several items optional, non-the-less...
14:37:39 <marc> So felix and ian can work out a concrete example on that basis.
14:37:52 <marc> Can we move on to Links 2?
14:38:00 <marc> Felix presents.
14:38:28 <marc> This also covers Core 8 "Emotion timing".
14:39:15 <marc> Felix: again, we should take the best of EMMA and SMIL that is useful for us, but not take everything.
14:40:42 <felix> <utterance id="utt1" emma:start="1231314123"/>
14:40:56 <felix> <nounPhrase id="np1" emma:start="1231316123" emma:duration="3s"/>
14:41:11 <felix> <emoml:emotion emma:start="2s" emma:duration="5s"> 
14:41:25 <felix>  <emoml:category set="everyday" name="pleasure"/>
14:41:33 <felix> <emoml:start emma:time-ref-uri="#utt1"
14:41:46 <felix>  emma:time-ref-anchor-point="start"
14:41:54 <felix> emma:offset-to-start="2s" />
14:42:50 <felix>  <emoml:end   emma:time-ref-uri="#np1"
14:43:00 <felix>  emma:time-ref-anchor-point="end"
14:43:07 <felix> emma:offset-to-start="0" />
14:43:14 <felix> </emoml:emotion>
14:43:54 <Bjoern> also prefers intuitive dates.
14:44:38 <marc> I find absolute time in milliseconds since 1 Jan 1970 unintuitive
14:44:49 <marc> ... definitely I would like to avoid mixing these with human-readable times.
14:45:10 <marc> Enrico: agrees 
14:45:16 <Zakim> -Felix_Burkhardt
14:45:18 <marc> Felix: couldn't we just leave that to the user
14:45:56 <Zakim> +Felix_Burkhardt
14:46:02 <marc> Ian: my feeling is we do not need to refer to dates
14:46:15 <marc> ... but it shoudl be fine to tie our annotation to a zero-point
14:46:43 <marc> ... so we need only relative times, not absolute times.
14:47:06 <marc> Ian: also, I think we shouldn't use "30s" etc., because it is not machine-readable.
14:47:44 <Bjoern> thinks that absolute times might make sense for us in a surveillance application?
14:47:51 <marc> Paolo: in EMMA, there are both kinds of timing, absolute and relative
14:48:34 <marc> ... but in the end, having absolute timing was not actually useful for emma.
14:48:55 <Ian> http://www.w3.org/TR/SMIL3/smil-timing.html#Timing-ClockValueSyntax
14:49:07 <Ian> 50:00:10.25 = 50 hours, 10 seconds and 250 milliseconds
14:50:10 <marc> Felix: I don't see the need to force our users into a specific way of describing time
14:50:18 <marc> ... it is not relevant for emotion
14:50:58 <marc> Marc: this is an example of a very general point: interoperability. 
14:51:40 <marc> Dylan: for what I can see, we are fine with relative time, e.g. since the start of a video
14:52:16 <Bjoern> Bjoern sees applications for absolute time: broad scale media retrieval, surveillance, ...
14:52:42 <marc> Felix: emotional diary would need absolute time
14:52:49 <marc> Dylan: disagrees
14:54:42 <marc> The question to me is, how complicated do we want to make this?
14:54:59 <marc> We see with EMMA how complicated it becomes when we want to make it powerful.
14:55:07 <marc> Felix: time is running up
14:55:17 <marc> Ian: let's continue discussing via the mailing list.
14:55:55 <marc> Links 3: semantics of links
14:55:58 <marc> Ian presents.
14:56:27 <marc> Ian: felix made the point that this is similar to our discussion on categories.
14:57:25 <marc> Ian: we may have too many custom sets if we allow people to bring in their own categories of semantics of links.
14:58:26 <marc> ... I would suggest to distinguish clearly between the actual link and its semantics.
14:58:36 <marc> ... they are conceptually distinct.
15:01:52 <Zakim> -Paolo_Baggia,Enrico_Zovato
15:03:20 <marc> We need to think about the relation between the three requirements (can we have a time wihtout a link, etc.)
15:03:55 <marc> Ian: in a concrete example, which attributes are optional, which are mandatory, what depends on what etc.
15:04:48 <marc> Felix: concrete examples will be more complex
15:04:58 <marc> Where should this be discussed?
15:05:26 <marc> Felix: let's have this in the public list, this is the heart of the matter.
15:05:59 <Bjoern> agrees
15:07:44 <marc> Björn: suggests the f2f in Cannes is the time to discuss details, 
15:07:53 <marc> ... lets try to raise all issues by then.
15:08:21 <marc> Let's continue by email.
15:08:22 <felix> good bye
15:08:22 <Zakim> -Dylan
15:08:24 <Zakim> -Bjoern
15:08:26 <Zakim> -Ian_Wilson
15:08:27 <Bjoern> bye
15:08:29 <Zakim> -Felix_Burkhardt
15:08:32 <Dylan01> quit
15:08:35 <Dylan01> logout
15:08:40 <Zakim> -marc
15:08:42 <Zakim> INC_EMOXG()10:00AM has ended
15:08:43 <Zakim> Attendees were +049892892aaaa, marc, Bjoern, +035321425aabb, Paolo_Baggia,Enrico_Zovato, Dylan, Felix_Burkhardt, Ian_Wilson
15:08:58 <marc> Chair: Marc, Felix, Ian (changing)
15:09:17 <marc> Meeting: working meeting on EmotionML spec
15:10:04 <marc> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-emotion/2008Jul/0007.html
15:10:58 <marc> Present: Dylan, Ian, Bjoern, Paolo, Enrico, Felix, Marc
15:11:07 <marc> Regrets: Andy, Jianhua
15:11:38 <marc> ACTION: Marc to specify Meta 1 - due 15 August
15:11:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-28 - specify Meta 1 [on Marc Schröder - due 2008-08-15].
15:11:49 <marc> ACTION: Enrico to specify Meta 2 - due 15 August
15:11:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-29 - specify Meta 2 [on Enrico Zovato - due 2008-08-15].
15:12:10 <marc> ACTION: Felix to specify Global 0 - due 15 August
15:12:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-30 - specify Global 0 [on Felix Burkhardt - due 2008-08-15].
15:12:24 <marc> rrsagent, make logs public
15:12:30 <marc> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:12:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-emotion-minutes.html marc
15:12:57 <marc> rrsagent, bye
15:12:57 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-emotion-actions.rdf :
15:12:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Marc to specify Meta 1 - due 15 August [1]
15:12:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-emotion-irc#T15-11-38
15:12:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Enrico to specify Meta 2 - due 15 August [2]
15:12:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-emotion-irc#T15-11-49
15:12:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Felix to specify Global 0 - due 15 August [3]
15:12:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-emotion-irc#T15-12-10
15:13:01 <marc> zakim, bye
15:13:01 <Zakim> Zakim has left #emotion