See also: IRC log
<Steven-eee> I can only participate by IRC
<Steven-eee> (at a conference, in a session)
<Steven-eee> RTP?
<Steven-eee> I wish W3C wouldn't use date space for URI like that...
<John_Boyer> Scribe: Leigh
<John_Boyer> scribenick: klotz
<Steven-eee> s/sca/space/
<Steven-eee> Yes, Shepazu, that was the backplane we were talking about
<Steven-eee> shoulld be announced any day now
<shepazu> sweet, thanks
<John_Boyer> be right there
<Steven-eee> Hi George, which company are you?
<gcowe> Hi - I'm with Origo Services
<John_Boyer> note agenda link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0055.html
John did you get my note that I'd prefer not to minute today?
<unl> i can try, but i fear it will be hard
thank you uli
<John_Boyer> Scribe: Uli
<John_Boyer> scribenick: unl
ok
John: any reports on action items?
<John_Boyer> Steven, were you able to do the triage of your actions?
John: lets try to make pogress
<nick> already done it
John: all, try to find a couple of hours till friday
<John_Boyer> We really need to make progress on the action items we committed to doing on the call
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0052.html
John: we have @target for
instance replacement
... maybe we can reuse it for @replace="all"
<nick> I've hit the send button, forgot to press it. So the updated action item list is on his way
John: there is history in using @target for frame targets in HTML
Leigh: ...
<John_Boyer> 28<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0052.html> rnLeigh: CSS asked us to change repeat "cursor" to "index"
Erik: most xforms implemtations run in browsers today
<John_Boyer> Leigh: to avoid confusion
Erik: so form authors are used to
HTML
... we have apps like Google Docs where clicking on a link
opens in a new window
... we can do this with xf:load but not xf:submission
<John_Boyer> John: (earlier) @target when used for replace="instance" submission seems to do the analogous operation to targetting a replace="all" submission to a new window or to a frame
<John_Boyer> John: (earlier) so we could even look at using target with replace="all" later
Erik: would be natural to have sth. like target on xf:submission
<klotz> +q
Erik: xf:submission replace="all"
target="_blank" would be nice
... or something similar like in HTML
John: confusion is coming from having @target but behaving differently than in HTML
Erik: reusing @target for frame
names is confusing
... because it would have a different content model for
@replace="all"
<John_Boyer> markbirbeck: connected to modularisation
Mark: no reason why we should not
have @target on xf:load and xf:submission in exactly the same
way like in XHTML
... modularization brought back @target, but it is only a
hint
<John_Boyer> markbirbeck: @target is regarded as a hint for replace="all" case
<John_Boyer> markbirbeck: @target is a little confusing because of the different uses between replace instance and replace all
Mark: Erik is right, that reusing/ovrloading @target is confusing
Leigh: two points: agree with
Erik regarding content models for attributes
... we should free ourselves from XML Schema
<nick> it could always be an xpath expression, and then use target="'_blank'"
<nick> hmm maybe it isn't that clear I put single quotes around the _blank
Leigh: a child element for handling @replace="all"
sorry?
<John_Boyer> Ah, I see that Nick. It's hard for users to do that. They'll forget them and then not know why the target isn't working.
<klotz> it's as Raman would say bizzare for us to think that we know everything a host language needs for replace='all' so we should consider a child element instead an allow the host language to specify such attributes as target for frame.
<klotz> also i agree with erik on staying away from covariant attribute constraints until we free the specification from xml schema, which cannot express them
<nick> if _blank doesn't exists the result is the blank string ;)
John: it would be a significant
change, when we change the schema
... can we just change the name?
Erik: what does it take to make such a change?
John: in PR we would have to
provide a rationale for this
... otherwise going back to LC
<John_Boyer> Steven, is it possible to change target attr to some other name without going back to LC?
Erik: why not harmonizing with xf:insert which has @origin
<Steven-eee> I doubt it
<Steven-eee> that would be a pretty big change
<Steven-eee> we could restrict the LC to that feature only
John: wouldn't work since on xf:insert @origin determines the template, binding attributes determine the target
<klotz> +q
<markbirbeck> Also: http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2006/08/using-subforms-in-xforms.html
John: it would make schema validation even harder but we cannot validate xpath expressions anyway
Erik: but it would be the first
time we introduce an attribute being capable of having and id
or an xpath expression
... schema support for this is not important to me
... but we would allow two different types for one
attribute
John: we could use a literal xpath, as nick typed in the IRC
Erik: i understand, but you would
have to write @target="'_blank'"
... everything could be an xpath expression, but my preference
would be AVTs to make things dynamic
Leigh: don't want to overload an
attribute with two different types
... a child element would be better
<klotz> I have no objections to leaving it as it is but. If we want to start adding stuff I would prefer the child element because it can more easily accommodate other host languages.
sorry, Mark i didn't get it
Mark: three use cases: html frames, xforms instances, and parts of document (like subforms)
Erik: we should have clear
attributes for sources and targets
... @target is very general, could be used on actions too
Mark: this is a philosophical discussion
John: take back that discussion to the mailing lists
John: George will tell us about
George: i work for origo services
in UK
... work started 3 years ago
... XML Schema 1.0 caused trouble for users
<John_Boyer> Big variation in how much XML Schema is implemented by different tools
George: especially in Web service tools because of very different coverage of Schema
please STOP! i need a break!
<John_Boyer> scribe: John_Boyer
George: schema patterns detection
service. Feed schema or wsdl in, and it reports whether it
conforms to pattern spec
... basic and advanced pattern specs
... advanced are recognized patterns, but you may not get a
good experience from all toolkits
... last call period extends to end of month
... No impact on XForms.
John: Is there a connection between these schema patterns and *generating* XForms?
George: Not really, Mostly used in construction of good schema and wsdl
Erik: Are you saying something specifically about SOAP?
George: Yes, we're addressing SOAP-based web services because that is the arena for the toolkits
Erik: There are not many tools
that take schema and produces XForms, but that is the interest
from this group
... Is it possible that if someone was following these patterns
that it would facilitate forms generation?
<Steven-eee> Cordys has a schema to xforms tool
George: That would probably be a dangerous thing. We're working on limitations of existing toolkits for web services that don't support schema very well.
<Steven-eee> I can imagine that other companies do too
George: If you want to generate
XForms, you would want to have better schema support than the
limited toolkits we are addressing.
... XForms generation should not be limited to the basic
patterns
Erik: On the one hand, the basic patterns could provide a lowest common denominator, but are you saying the bar is too low?
George: Yes. Pretty much all of
the Origo schemas use advanced patterns
... Most of the schema produced by BT will conform however
John: Could you explain the term 'data binding' in the title?
George: Binding the data in an
XML message with host language programming construct.
... You're binding data in XML to java or C#
<unl> Axis
Leigh: Can you give some examples of the tools that are doing this?
George: Apache Axis 1 and 2
... .Net, WCF
<unl> JAXB, JIBX, etc
George: A data binding is created by a wsdl, and we want to translate that into code. But the schema patterns showing up in the wsdl docs do not always result in an ability to compile into code
<ebruchez> Thanks George
<unl> ok
John: We got the idea that maybe these patterns could be used to generate XForms "code"
<scribe> scribe: unl
<John_Boyer> markbirbeck: Origo schemas are enormous and it is hard to generate XForms from them
<John_Boyer> markbirbeck: Best practices for designing schemas with form use in mind would make a good NOTE
Mark: schemas are created in a schema-driven way
<John_Boyer> markbirbeck: yes. people get driven by schema practices, but those practices are not informed by notions of interactivity common in forms
Mark: ot allow all kinds of
extension points
... but its hard to build forms on top of that
... we rolled out recently
<ebruchez> sorry guys have to step out for a momnet
Mark: i have the permission to write a white paper, especially the xforms aspects of the project
<John_Boyer> ACTION: MarkB to produce some public information about his observations on best practices for schema design with form use in mind and give link to group [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - MarkB
<John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Apr/0025.html
<Steven-eee> I shall try again to get Cordys to come to our meeting in Amsterdam
John: there were three emails
which we should respond to
... it asks for archfirstecture documents for XForms being
available
... anyone feeling guilty?
<scribe> ACTION: Charlie to respond to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Apr/0025.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Charlie
<nick> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Apr/0024.html
John: next is about what Architectural Consistency actually means
<nick> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Apr/0017.html
John: Anne's response is much
more concrete than Maciej's
... we need the high level principles as well as the
specifics
<nick> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0056.html
John: we need to respond to
Anne's and Maciej's emails
... Sebastian indicated that he can't continue to work for
TF
... anyone in the group who wants to join the TF?
... Keith, would you like to join?
... Erik, what about you?
Keith: i could do
Erik: i'm little wary to get into this ...
John: thank you, keith
... you are the face of the Forms WG in the Forms TF but don't
hesistate to put back work to the group
... back to the question of how to respond to Anne and
Maciej
... any volunteer or should i do the first try on
public-forms?
<scribe> ACTION: John to create a strawman for a reponse [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot-ng> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - John
<trackbot-ng> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer)
<nick> If I know the groups standpoint, and I can agree with it, I can do that
Mark: i can do this
John: we got to move forward with the task force, so please respond until friday
Charlie: the Backplane XG
officially kicked off.
... see homepage for signing up
John: Mark, Steven, whate about the message module?
Mark: i already started with it but have to talk back to Steven
<Steven-eee> I'll be home monday
<wellsk> /leave
<markbirbeck> The point I'm making is that the presentation is all. :)
<markbirbeck> The actual mechanics and architecture of the message module is not that difficult.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) FAILED: s/sca/space/ Succeeded: s/sace/space/ Succeeded: s/overlaod/overload/ Succeeded: s/JAX-RPC/JAXB/ Succeeded: s/it/first/ Found Scribe: Leigh Found ScribeNick: klotz Found Scribe: Uli Found ScribeNick: unl Found Scribe: John_Boyer Inferring ScribeNick: John_Boyer Found Scribe: unl Inferring ScribeNick: unl Scribes: Leigh, Uli, John_Boyer, unl ScribeNicks: klotz, unl, John_Boyer Default Present: unl, wellsk, George_Cowe, ebruchez, Susan_Borgrink, John_Boyer, Roger, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Leigh_Klotz, markbirbeck, Charlie Present: unl wellsk George_Cowe ebruchez Susan_Borgrink John_Boyer Roger Nick_van_den_Bleeken Leigh_Klotz markbirbeck Charlie Regrets: Kenneth Joern Steven_(partial on_IRC) Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0055.html Got date from IRC log name: 09 Apr 2008 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-minutes.html People with action items: charlie john markb[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]