IRC log of forms on 2008-04-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:37:19 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #forms

14:37:19 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-irc

14:37:25 [John_Boyer]

rrsagent, make log public

14:37:46 [John_Boyer]

Meeting: Weekly Forms WG Teleconference

14:37:47 [Steven-eee]

I can only participate by IRC

14:37:58 [Steven-eee]

(at a conference, in a session)

14:37:59 [John_Boyer]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0055.html

14:38:18 [Steven-eee]

RTP?

14:38:42 [John_Boyer]

John_Boyer has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0055.html

14:38:49 [John_Boyer]

Chair: John

14:38:49 [Steven-eee]

I wish W3C wouldn't use date sace for URI like that...

14:38:53 [John_Boyer]

Scribe: Leigh

14:38:58 [John_Boyer]

scribenick: klotz

14:39:00 [Steven-eee]

s/sca/space/

14:39:15 [Steven-eee]

s/sace/space/

14:39:23 [John_Boyer]

Regrets: Kenneth, Joern, Steven (partial, on IRC)

14:39:38 [Steven-eee]

Yes, Shepazu, that was the backplane we were talking about

14:39:56 [Steven-eee]

shoulld be announced any day now

14:40:32 [wellsk]

wellsk has joined #forms

14:41:32 [unl]

unl has joined #forms

14:41:58 [shepazu]

sweet, thanks

14:42:24 [Roger]

Roger has joined #forms

14:44:42 [gcowe]

gcowe has joined #forms

14:45:00 [Zakim]

HTML_Forms()10:45AM has now started

14:45:07 [Zakim]

+unl

14:45:17 [unl]

zakim, mute me

14:45:17 [Zakim]

sorry, unl, muting is not permitted when only one person is present

14:45:24 [Zakim]

+wellsk

14:45:27 [Zakim]

-unl

14:45:28 [Zakim]

+unl

14:45:39 [unl]

zakim, mute me

14:45:39 [Zakim]

unl should now be muted

14:46:02 [Roger]

zakim, code ?

14:46:02 [Zakim]

the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Roger

14:46:12 [Zakim]

+George_Cowe

14:46:17 [ebruchez]

ebruchez has joined #forms

14:46:27 [Zakim]

+??P6

14:46:40 [ebruchez]

zakim, ??P6 is ebruchez

14:46:40 [Zakim]

+ebruchez; got it

14:47:35 [wellsk]

zakim, who is here?

14:47:35 [Zakim]

On the phone I see unl (muted), wellsk, George_Cowe, ebruchez

14:47:37 [Zakim]

On IRC I see ebruchez, gcowe, Roger, unl, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, markbirbeck, Steven-eee, nick, shepazu, trackbot-ng

14:47:42 [John_Boyer]

be right there

14:47:50 [Zakim]

+Susan_Borgrink

14:48:25 [Steven-eee]

Hi George, which company are you?

14:48:39 [Zakim]

+John_Boyer

14:48:39 [nic1]

nic1 has joined #forms

14:48:47 [gcowe]

Hi - I'm with Origo Services

14:48:53 [Zakim]

+??P9

14:48:56 [nic1]

zakim, code?

14:48:56 [Zakim]

the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nic1

14:48:59 [Roger]

zakim, ??P9 is Roger

14:48:59 [Zakim]

+Roger; got it

14:49:12 [John_Boyer]

zakim, who is here?

14:49:12 [Zakim]

On the phone I see unl (muted), wellsk, George_Cowe, ebruchez, Susan_Borgrink, John_Boyer, Roger

14:49:15 [Zakim]

On IRC I see nic1, ebruchez, gcowe, Roger, unl, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, markbirbeck, Steven-eee, nick, shepazu, trackbot-ng

14:49:30 [klotz]

klotz has joined #forms

14:49:35 [John_Boyer]

note agenda link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0055.html

14:49:37 [SusanB]

SusanB has joined #forms

14:49:43 [Zakim]

+Nick_van_den_Bleeken

14:49:58 [wellsk]

zakim, mute me

14:49:58 [Zakim]

wellsk should now be muted

14:50:36 [Zakim]

+Leigh_Klotz

14:50:40 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has left #forms

14:50:45 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has joined #forms

14:50:45 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has left #forms

14:51:14 [klotz]

John did you get my note that I'd prefer not to minute today?

14:51:54 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has joined #forms

14:52:06 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has left #forms

14:52:14 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has joined #forms

14:52:14 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has left #forms

14:52:28 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has joined #forms

14:52:43 [markbirbeck]

zakim, code?

14:52:43 [Zakim]

the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

14:52:53 [John_Boyer]

zakim, who is here?

14:52:53 [Zakim]

On the phone I see unl (muted), wellsk (muted), George_Cowe, ebruchez, Susan_Borgrink, John_Boyer, Roger, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Leigh_Klotz

14:52:55 [unl]

i can try, but i fear it will be hard

14:52:56 [Zakim]

On IRC I see markbirbeck, SusanB, klotz, nick, ebruchez, gcowe, Roger, unl, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, Steven-eee, shepazu, trackbot-ng

14:53:11 [klotz]

thank you uli

14:53:25 [John_Boyer]

Scribe: Uli

14:53:33 [John_Boyer]

scribenick: unl

14:53:40 [unl]

ok

14:55:00 [nick]

TOPIC: Action Item List

14:55:23 [unl]

John: any reports on action items?

14:56:09 [John_Boyer]

Steven, were you able to do the triage of your actions?

14:56:42 [unl]

John: lets try to make pogress

14:56:59 [Zakim]

+markbirbeck

14:58:16 [nick]

already done it

14:58:21 [unl]

John: all, try to find a couple of hours till friday

14:58:26 [John_Boyer]

We really need to make progress on the action items we committed to doing on the call

14:58:59 [unl]

TOPIC: Bug Fix Issues

14:59:29 [unl]

TOPIC: Thread for "Unfortunate name choice for target attribute"

14:59:41 [unl]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0052.html

15:00:18 [unl]

John: we have @target for instance replacement

15:00:41 [unl]

... maybe we can reuse it for @replace="all"

15:00:51 [nick]

I've hit the send button, forgot to press it. So the updated action item list is on his way

15:01:38 [unl]

... there is history in using @target for frame targets in HTML

15:02:29 [unl]

Leigh: ...

15:02:50 [markbirbeck]

q+

15:02:54 [John_Boyer]

28<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0052.html> rnLeigh: CSS asked us to change repeat "cursor" to "index"

15:03:01 [unl]

Erik: most xforms implemtations run in browsers today

15:03:07 [John_Boyer]

Leigh: to avoid confusion

15:03:14 [unl]

... so form authors are used to HTML

15:03:59 [unl]

... we have apps like Google Docs where clicking on a link opens in a new window

15:04:20 [unl]

... we can do this with xf:load but not xf:submission

15:04:24 [John_Boyer]

John: (earlier) @target when used for replace="instance" submission seems to do the analogous operation to targetting a replace="all" submission to a new window or to a frame

15:04:49 [John_Boyer]

John: (earlier) so we could even look at using target with replace="all" later

15:04:59 [unl]

... would be natural to have sth. like target on xf:submission

15:06:10 [klotz]

+q

15:06:13 [unl]

Erik: xf:submission replace="all" target="_blank" would be nice

15:06:33 [unl]

... or something similar like in HTML

15:07:44 [unl]

John: confusion is coming from having @target but behaving differently than in HTML

15:08:21 [John_Boyer]

ack markbirbeck

15:08:21 [unl]

Erik: reusing @target for frame names is confusing

15:09:01 [unl]

... because it would have a different content model for @replace="all"

15:09:59 [John_Boyer]

markbirbeck: connected to modularisation

15:10:03 [unl]

Mark: no reason why we should not have @target on xf:load and xf:submission in exactly the same way like in XHTML

15:10:28 [unl]

... modularization brought back @target, but it is only a hint

15:10:31 [John_Boyer]

markbirbeck: @target is regarded as a hint for replace="all" case

15:11:16 [John_Boyer]

markbirbeck: @target is a little confusing because of the different uses between replace instance and replace all

15:11:22 [John_Boyer]

ack klotz

15:11:30 [unl]

... Erik is right, that reusing/ovrloading @target is confusing

15:11:43 [Zakim]

+[IBM]

15:11:56 [unl]

Leigh: two points: agree with Erik regarding content models for attributes

15:12:05 [Charlie]

Charlie has joined #forms

15:12:12 [unl]

... we should free ourselves from XML Schema

15:12:17 [Charlie]

zakim, who is here?

15:12:17 [Zakim]

On the phone I see unl (muted), wellsk (muted), George_Cowe, ebruchez, Susan_Borgrink, John_Boyer, Roger, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Leigh_Klotz, markbirbeck, [IBM]

15:12:20 [nick]

it could always be an xpath expression, and then use target="'_blank'"

15:12:20 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Charlie, markbirbeck, SusanB, klotz, nick, ebruchez, gcowe, Roger, unl, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, Steven-eee, shepazu, trackbot-ng

15:12:25 [Charlie]

zakim, [IBM] is Charlie

15:12:25 [Zakim]

+Charlie; got it

15:13:04 [nick]

hmm maybe it isn't that clear I put single quotes around the _blank

15:13:08 [unl]

Leigh: a child element for handling @replace="all"

15:13:19 [unl]

sorry?

15:13:46 [John_Boyer]

Ah, I see that Nick. It's hard for users to do that. They'll forget them and then not know why the target isn't working.

15:14:20 [klotz]

it's as Raman would say bizzare for us to think that we know everything a host language needs for replace='all' so we should consider a child element instead an allow the host language to specify such attributes as target for frame.

15:14:46 [klotz]

also i agree with erik on staying away from covariant attribute constraints until we free the specification from xml schema, which cannot express them

15:14:53 [nick]

if _blank doesn't exists the result is the blank string ;)

15:15:29 [unl]

John: it would be a significant change, when we change the schema

15:15:45 [unl]

John: can we just change the name?

15:16:06 [unl]

Erik: what does it take to make such a change?

15:16:32 [unl]

John: in PR we would have to provide a rationale for this

15:16:49 [unl]

... otherwise going back to LC

15:17:09 [John_Boyer]

Steven, is it possible to change target attr to some other name without going back to LC?

15:17:51 [unl]

Erik: why not harmonizing with xf:insert which has @origin

15:17:58 [Steven-eee]

I doubt it

15:18:07 [Steven-eee]

that would be a pretty big change

15:18:20 [Steven-eee]

we could restrict the LC to that feature only

15:19:02 [unl]

John: wouldn't work since on xf:insert @origin determines the template, binding attributes determine the target

15:19:13 [klotz]

+q

15:19:47 [markbirbeck]

Also: http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2006/08/using-subforms-in-xforms.html

15:20:03 [unl]

John: it would make schema validation even harder but we cannot validate xpath expressions anyway

15:20:46 [unl]

Erik: but it would be the first time we introduce an attribute being capable of having and id or an xpath expression

15:21:14 [unl]

... schema support for this is not important to me

15:21:56 [unl]

... but we would allow two different types for one attribute

15:22:07 [markbirbeck]

q+

15:22:22 [unl]

John: we could use a literal xpath, as nick typed in the IRC

15:23:16 [unl]

Erik: i understand, but you would have to write @target="'_blank'"

15:24:42 [John_Boyer]

ack klotz

15:24:43 [unl]

Erik: everything could be an xpath expression, but my preference would be AVTs to make things dynamic

15:25:16 [John_Boyer]

ack markbirbeck

15:25:27 [unl]

Leigh: don't want to overlaod an attribute with two different types

15:25:39 [unl]

s/overlaod/overload

15:25:51 [unl]

Leigh: a child element would be better

15:25:56 [klotz]

I have no objections to leaving it as it is but. If we want to start adding stuff I would prefer the child element because it can more easily accommodate other host languages.

15:26:31 [unl]

sorry, Mark i didn't get it

15:27:53 [unl]

Mark: three use cases: html frames, xforms instances, and parts of document (like subforms)

15:29:39 [unl]

Erik: we should have clear attributes for sources and targets

15:30:06 [unl]

... @target is very general, could be used on actions too

15:31:02 [unl]

Mark: this is a philosophical discussion

15:31:16 [unl]

John: take back that discussion to the mailing lists

15:31:33 [unl]

TOPIC: Basic XML Schema Patterns for Databinding

15:31:49 [unl]

John: George will tell us about

15:32:08 [unl]

George: i work for origo services in UK

15:33:03 [unl]

... work started 3 years ago

15:33:21 [unl]

... XML Schema 1.0 caused trouble for users

15:33:54 [John_Boyer]

Big variation in how much XML Schema is implemented by different tools

15:33:56 [unl]

... especially in Web service tools because of very different coverage of Schema

15:34:04 [Steven-eee]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:34:04 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-minutes.html Steven-eee

15:34:31 [unl]

please STOP! i need a break!

15:35:30 [John_Boyer]

scribe: John_Boyer

15:36:06 [John_Boyer]

George: schema patterns detection service. Feed schema or wsdl in, and it reports whether it conforms to pattern spec

15:36:21 [John_Boyer]

George: basic and advanced pattern specs

15:36:39 [John_Boyer]

George: advanced are recognized patterns, but you may not get a good experience from all toolkits

15:37:03 [John_Boyer]

George: last call period extends to end of month

15:37:18 [John_Boyer]

George: No impact on XForms.

15:38:14 [John_Boyer]

John: Is there a connection between these schema patterns and *generating* XForms?

15:38:35 [John_Boyer]

George: Not really, Mostly used in construction of good schema and wsdl

15:38:53 [John_Boyer]

Erik: Are you saying something specifically about SOAP?

15:39:12 [John_Boyer]

George: Yes, we're addressing SOAP-based web services because that is the arena for the toolkits

15:39:39 [John_Boyer]

Erik: There are not many tools that take schema and produces XForms, but that is the interest from this group

15:40:19 [John_Boyer]

Erik: Is it possible that if someone was following these patterns that it would facilitate forms generation?

15:40:46 [Steven-eee]

Cordys has a schema to xforms tool

15:40:50 [John_Boyer]

George: That would probably be a dangerous thing. We're working on limitations of existing toolkits for web services that don't support schema very well.

15:40:54 [Steven-eee]

I can imagine that other companies do too

15:41:20 [John_Boyer]

George: If you want to generate XForms, you would want to have better schema support than the limited toolkits we are addressing.

15:41:43 [John_Boyer]

George: XForms generation should not be limited to the basic patterns

15:42:32 [John_Boyer]

Erik: On the one hand, the basic patterns could provide a lowest common denominator, but are you saying the bar is too low?

15:42:52 [John_Boyer]

George: Yes. Pretty much all of the Origo schemas use advanced patterns

15:43:32 [John_Boyer]

George: Most of the schema produced by BT will conform however

15:43:43 [John_Boyer]

John: Could you explain the term 'data binding' in the title?

15:44:04 [John_Boyer]

George: Binding the data in an XML message with host language programming construct.

15:44:16 [John_Boyer]

George: You're binding data in XML to java or C#

15:44:17 [unl]

Axis

15:44:29 [John_Boyer]

Leigh: Can you give some examples of the tools that are doing this?

15:44:39 [John_Boyer]

George: Apache Axis 1 and 2

15:44:48 [John_Boyer]

George: .Net, WCF

15:44:48 [unl]

JAX-RPC, JIBX, etc

15:46:13 [unl]

s/JAX-RPC/JAXB

15:46:22 [John_Boyer]

George: A data binding is created by a wsdl, and we want to translate that into code. But the schema patterns showing up in the wsdl docs do not always result in an ability to compile into code

15:48:32 [Zakim]

-Susan_Borgrink

15:49:49 [ebruchez]

Thanks George

15:49:51 [Zakim]

-George_Cowe

15:49:56 [unl]

ok

15:50:10 [John_Boyer]

John: We got the idea that maybe these patterns could be used to generate XForms "code"

15:50:15 [John_Boyer]

scribe: unl

15:50:55 [John_Boyer]

markbirbeck: Origo schemas are enormous and it is hard to generate XForms from them

15:51:18 [John_Boyer]

markbirbeck: Best practices for designing schemas with form use in mind would make a good NOTE

15:51:56 [unl]

Mark: schemas are created in a schema-driven way

15:52:05 [John_Boyer]

markbirbeck: yes. people get driven by schema practices, but those practices are not informed by notions of interactivity common in forms

15:52:08 [unl]

.. ot allow all kinds of extension points

15:52:29 [unl]

... but its hard to build forms on top of that

15:53:16 [unl]

Mark: we rolled out recently

15:53:27 [ebruchez]

sorry guys have to step out for a momnet

15:53:52 [unl]

... i have the permission to write a white paper, especially the xforms aspects of the project

15:54:49 [John_Boyer]

Action: MarkB to produce some public information about his observations on best practices for schema design with form use in mind and give link to group

15:54:49 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, couldn't find user - MarkB

15:55:26 [unl]

TOPIC: Forms TF

15:55:44 [John_Boyer]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Apr/0025.html

15:55:47 [Steven-eee]

I shall try again to get Cordys to come to our meeting in Amsterdam

15:55:48 [unl]

John: there were three emails which we should respond to

15:56:39 [unl]

John: it asks for architecture documents for XForms being available

15:56:51 [unl]

s/it/first

15:57:19 [unl]

John: anyone feeling guilty?

15:57:42 [unl]

ACTION: Charlie to respond to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Apr/0025.html

15:57:42 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, couldn't find user - Charlie

15:59:17 [nick]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Apr/0024.html

15:59:46 [unl]

John: next is about what Architectural Consistency actually means

16:00:13 [nick]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Apr/0017.html

16:00:41 [unl]

John: Anne's response is much more concrete than Maciej's

16:01:04 [unl]

John: we need the high level principles as well as the specifics

16:01:30 [John_Boyer]

John_Boyer has joined #forms

16:01:36 [nick]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0056.html

16:03:31 [unl]

John: we need to respond to Anne's and Maciej's emails

16:04:10 [unl]

John: Sebastian indicated that he can't continue to work for TF

16:04:30 [unl]

John: anyone in the group who wants to join the TF?

16:04:45 [unl]

John: Keith, would you like to join?

16:04:58 [unl]

John: Erik, what about you?

16:05:07 [John_Boyer]

zakim, who is here?

16:05:07 [Zakim]

On the phone I see unl (muted), wellsk (muted), ebruchez, John_Boyer, Roger, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Leigh_Klotz, markbirbeck, Charlie

16:05:10 [Zakim]

On IRC I see John_Boyer, Charlie, markbirbeck, klotz, nick, ebruchez, Roger, unl, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven-eee, shepazu, trackbot-ng

16:05:14 [wellsk]

zakim, unmute me

16:05:14 [Zakim]

wellsk should no longer be muted

16:05:39 [unl]

Keith: i could do

16:06:41 [unl]

Erik: i'm little wary to get into this ...

16:07:18 [unl]

John: thank you, keith

16:07:52 [unl]

John: you are the face of the Forms WG in the Forms TF but don't hesistate to put back work to the group

16:08:43 [unl]

John: back to the question of how to respond to Anne and Maciej

16:09:42 [unl]

John: any volunteer or should i do the first try on public-forms?

16:10:31 [unl]

ACTION: John to create a strawman for a reponse

16:10:31 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - John

16:10:31 [trackbot-ng]

Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer)

16:10:43 [nick]

If I know the groups standpoint, and I can agree with it, I can do that

16:11:39 [unl]

Mark: i can do this

16:12:43 [Zakim]

-ebruchez

16:12:47 [unl]

John: we got to move forward with the task force, so please respond until friday

16:13:35 [unl]

Charlie: the Backplane XG officially kicked off.

16:14:31 [unl]

Charlie: see homepage for signing up

16:14:55 [unl]

John: Mark, Steven, whate about the message module?

16:15:15 [unl]

Mark: i already started with it but have to talk back to Steven

16:15:46 [Steven-eee]

I'll be home monday

16:17:26 [Zakim]

-markbirbeck

16:17:27 [Zakim]

-Leigh_Klotz

16:17:27 [Zakim]

-wellsk

16:17:29 [Zakim]

-Nick_van_den_Bleeken

16:17:29 [Zakim]

-John_Boyer

16:17:30 [Zakim]

-Charlie

16:17:30 [Zakim]

-unl

16:17:30 [Charlie]

Charlie has left #forms

16:17:34 [Roger]

Roger has left #forms

16:17:35 [wellsk]

/leave

16:17:48 [John_Boyer]

zakim, who is here?

16:17:48 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Roger

16:17:51 [markbirbeck]

The point I'm making is that the presentation is all. :)

16:17:52 [Zakim]

On IRC I see John_Boyer, markbirbeck, klotz, nick, unl, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven-eee, shepazu, trackbot-ng

16:17:57 [Zakim]

-Roger

16:17:59 [Zakim]

HTML_Forms()10:45AM has ended

16:18:01 [Zakim]

Attendees were unl, wellsk, George_Cowe, ebruchez, Susan_Borgrink, John_Boyer, Roger, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Leigh_Klotz, markbirbeck, Charlie

16:18:08 [John_Boyer]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:18:08 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer

16:18:11 [markbirbeck]

The actual mechanics and architecture of the message module is not that difficult.

16:18:21 [John_Boyer]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:18:21 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer

16:18:27 [John_Boyer]

rrsagent, bye

16:18:27 [RRSAgent]

I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-actions.rdf :

16:18:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: MarkB to produce some public information about his observations on best practices for schema design with form use in mind and give link to group [1]

16:18:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-irc#T15-54-49

16:18:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Charlie to respond to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Apr/0025.html [2]

16:18:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-irc#T15-57-42

16:18:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: John to create a strawman for a reponse [3]

16:18:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-irc#T16-10-31