IRC log of forms on 2008-04-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:37:19 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:37:19 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:37:25 [John_Boyer]
rrsagent, make log public
14:37:46 [John_Boyer]
Meeting: Weekly Forms WG Teleconference
14:37:47 [Steven-eee]
I can only participate by IRC
14:37:58 [Steven-eee]
(at a conference, in a session)
14:37:59 [John_Boyer]
14:38:18 [Steven-eee]
14:38:42 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer has changed the topic to:
14:38:49 [John_Boyer]
Chair: John
14:38:49 [Steven-eee]
I wish W3C wouldn't use date sace for URI like that...
14:38:53 [John_Boyer]
Scribe: Leigh
14:38:58 [John_Boyer]
scribenick: klotz
14:39:00 [Steven-eee]
14:39:15 [Steven-eee]
14:39:23 [John_Boyer]
Regrets: Kenneth, Joern, Steven (partial, on IRC)
14:39:38 [Steven-eee]
Yes, Shepazu, that was the backplane we were talking about
14:39:56 [Steven-eee]
shoulld be announced any day now
14:40:32 [wellsk]
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14:41:32 [unl]
unl has joined #forms
14:41:58 [shepazu]
sweet, thanks
14:42:24 [Roger]
Roger has joined #forms
14:44:42 [gcowe]
gcowe has joined #forms
14:45:00 [Zakim]
HTML_Forms()10:45AM has now started
14:45:07 [Zakim]
14:45:17 [unl]
zakim, mute me
14:45:17 [Zakim]
sorry, unl, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
14:45:24 [Zakim]
14:45:27 [Zakim]
14:45:28 [Zakim]
14:45:39 [unl]
zakim, mute me
14:45:39 [Zakim]
unl should now be muted
14:46:02 [Roger]
zakim, code ?
14:46:02 [Zakim]
the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), Roger
14:46:12 [Zakim]
14:46:17 [ebruchez]
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14:46:27 [Zakim]
14:46:40 [ebruchez]
zakim, ??P6 is ebruchez
14:46:40 [Zakim]
+ebruchez; got it
14:47:35 [wellsk]
zakim, who is here?
14:47:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see unl (muted), wellsk, George_Cowe, ebruchez
14:47:37 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ebruchez, gcowe, Roger, unl, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, markbirbeck, Steven-eee, nick, shepazu, trackbot-ng
14:47:42 [John_Boyer]
be right there
14:47:50 [Zakim]
14:48:25 [Steven-eee]
Hi George, which company are you?
14:48:39 [Zakim]
14:48:39 [nic1]
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14:48:47 [gcowe]
Hi - I'm with Origo Services
14:48:53 [Zakim]
14:48:56 [nic1]
zakim, code?
14:48:56 [Zakim]
the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), nic1
14:48:59 [Roger]
zakim, ??P9 is Roger
14:48:59 [Zakim]
+Roger; got it
14:49:12 [John_Boyer]
zakim, who is here?
14:49:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see unl (muted), wellsk, George_Cowe, ebruchez, Susan_Borgrink, John_Boyer, Roger
14:49:15 [Zakim]
On IRC I see nic1, ebruchez, gcowe, Roger, unl, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, markbirbeck, Steven-eee, nick, shepazu, trackbot-ng
14:49:30 [klotz]
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14:49:35 [John_Boyer]
note agenda link:
14:49:37 [SusanB]
SusanB has joined #forms
14:49:43 [Zakim]
14:49:58 [wellsk]
zakim, mute me
14:49:58 [Zakim]
wellsk should now be muted
14:50:36 [Zakim]
14:50:40 [markbirbeck]
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14:50:45 [markbirbeck]
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14:51:14 [klotz]
John did you get my note that I'd prefer not to minute today?
14:51:54 [markbirbeck]
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14:52:43 [markbirbeck]
zakim, code?
14:52:43 [Zakim]
the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
14:52:53 [John_Boyer]
zakim, who is here?
14:52:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see unl (muted), wellsk (muted), George_Cowe, ebruchez, Susan_Borgrink, John_Boyer, Roger, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Leigh_Klotz
14:52:55 [unl]
i can try, but i fear it will be hard
14:52:56 [Zakim]
On IRC I see markbirbeck, SusanB, klotz, nick, ebruchez, gcowe, Roger, unl, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, Steven-eee, shepazu, trackbot-ng
14:53:11 [klotz]
thank you uli
14:53:25 [John_Boyer]
Scribe: Uli
14:53:33 [John_Boyer]
scribenick: unl
14:53:40 [unl]
14:55:00 [nick]
TOPIC: Action Item List
14:55:23 [unl]
John: any reports on action items?
14:56:09 [John_Boyer]
Steven, were you able to do the triage of your actions?
14:56:42 [unl]
John: lets try to make pogress
14:56:59 [Zakim]
14:58:16 [nick]
already done it
14:58:21 [unl]
John: all, try to find a couple of hours till friday
14:58:26 [John_Boyer]
We really need to make progress on the action items we committed to doing on the call
14:58:59 [unl]
TOPIC: Bug Fix Issues
14:59:29 [unl]
TOPIC: Thread for "Unfortunate name choice for target attribute"
14:59:41 [unl]
15:00:18 [unl]
John: we have @target for instance replacement
15:00:41 [unl]
... maybe we can reuse it for @replace="all"
15:00:51 [nick]
I've hit the send button, forgot to press it. So the updated action item list is on his way
15:01:38 [unl]
... there is history in using @target for frame targets in HTML
15:02:29 [unl]
Leigh: ...
15:02:50 [markbirbeck]
15:02:54 [John_Boyer]
28<> rnLeigh: CSS asked us to change repeat "cursor" to "index"
15:03:01 [unl]
Erik: most xforms implemtations run in browsers today
15:03:07 [John_Boyer]
Leigh: to avoid confusion
15:03:14 [unl]
... so form authors are used to HTML
15:03:59 [unl]
... we have apps like Google Docs where clicking on a link opens in a new window
15:04:20 [unl]
... we can do this with xf:load but not xf:submission
15:04:24 [John_Boyer]
John: (earlier) @target when used for replace="instance" submission seems to do the analogous operation to targetting a replace="all" submission to a new window or to a frame
15:04:49 [John_Boyer]
John: (earlier) so we could even look at using target with replace="all" later
15:04:59 [unl]
... would be natural to have sth. like target on xf:submission
15:06:10 [klotz]
15:06:13 [unl]
Erik: xf:submission replace="all" target="_blank" would be nice
15:06:33 [unl]
... or something similar like in HTML
15:07:44 [unl]
John: confusion is coming from having @target but behaving differently than in HTML
15:08:21 [John_Boyer]
ack markbirbeck
15:08:21 [unl]
Erik: reusing @target for frame names is confusing
15:09:01 [unl]
... because it would have a different content model for @replace="all"
15:09:59 [John_Boyer]
markbirbeck: connected to modularisation
15:10:03 [unl]
Mark: no reason why we should not have @target on xf:load and xf:submission in exactly the same way like in XHTML
15:10:28 [unl]
... modularization brought back @target, but it is only a hint
15:10:31 [John_Boyer]
markbirbeck: @target is regarded as a hint for replace="all" case
15:11:16 [John_Boyer]
markbirbeck: @target is a little confusing because of the different uses between replace instance and replace all
15:11:22 [John_Boyer]
ack klotz
15:11:30 [unl]
... Erik is right, that reusing/ovrloading @target is confusing
15:11:43 [Zakim]
15:11:56 [unl]
Leigh: two points: agree with Erik regarding content models for attributes
15:12:05 [Charlie]
Charlie has joined #forms
15:12:12 [unl]
... we should free ourselves from XML Schema
15:12:17 [Charlie]
zakim, who is here?
15:12:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see unl (muted), wellsk (muted), George_Cowe, ebruchez, Susan_Borgrink, John_Boyer, Roger, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Leigh_Klotz, markbirbeck, [IBM]
15:12:20 [nick]
it could always be an xpath expression, and then use target="'_blank'"
15:12:20 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Charlie, markbirbeck, SusanB, klotz, nick, ebruchez, gcowe, Roger, unl, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, Steven-eee, shepazu, trackbot-ng
15:12:25 [Charlie]
zakim, [IBM] is Charlie
15:12:25 [Zakim]
+Charlie; got it
15:13:04 [nick]
hmm maybe it isn't that clear I put single quotes around the _blank
15:13:08 [unl]
Leigh: a child element for handling @replace="all"
15:13:19 [unl]
15:13:46 [John_Boyer]
Ah, I see that Nick. It's hard for users to do that. They'll forget them and then not know why the target isn't working.
15:14:20 [klotz]
it's as Raman would say bizzare for us to think that we know everything a host language needs for replace='all' so we should consider a child element instead an allow the host language to specify such attributes as target for frame.
15:14:46 [klotz]
also i agree with erik on staying away from covariant attribute constraints until we free the specification from xml schema, which cannot express them
15:14:53 [nick]
if _blank doesn't exists the result is the blank string ;)
15:15:29 [unl]
John: it would be a significant change, when we change the schema
15:15:45 [unl]
John: can we just change the name?
15:16:06 [unl]
Erik: what does it take to make such a change?
15:16:32 [unl]
John: in PR we would have to provide a rationale for this
15:16:49 [unl]
... otherwise going back to LC
15:17:09 [John_Boyer]
Steven, is it possible to change target attr to some other name without going back to LC?
15:17:51 [unl]
Erik: why not harmonizing with xf:insert which has @origin
15:17:58 [Steven-eee]
I doubt it
15:18:07 [Steven-eee]
that would be a pretty big change
15:18:20 [Steven-eee]
we could restrict the LC to that feature only
15:19:02 [unl]
John: wouldn't work since on xf:insert @origin determines the template, binding attributes determine the target
15:19:13 [klotz]
15:19:47 [markbirbeck]
15:20:03 [unl]
John: it would make schema validation even harder but we cannot validate xpath expressions anyway
15:20:46 [unl]
Erik: but it would be the first time we introduce an attribute being capable of having and id or an xpath expression
15:21:14 [unl]
... schema support for this is not important to me
15:21:56 [unl]
... but we would allow two different types for one attribute
15:22:07 [markbirbeck]
15:22:22 [unl]
John: we could use a literal xpath, as nick typed in the IRC
15:23:16 [unl]
Erik: i understand, but you would have to write @target="'_blank'"
15:24:42 [John_Boyer]
ack klotz
15:24:43 [unl]
Erik: everything could be an xpath expression, but my preference would be AVTs to make things dynamic
15:25:16 [John_Boyer]
ack markbirbeck
15:25:27 [unl]
Leigh: don't want to overlaod an attribute with two different types
15:25:39 [unl]
15:25:51 [unl]
Leigh: a child element would be better
15:25:56 [klotz]
I have no objections to leaving it as it is but. If we want to start adding stuff I would prefer the child element because it can more easily accommodate other host languages.
15:26:31 [unl]
sorry, Mark i didn't get it
15:27:53 [unl]
Mark: three use cases: html frames, xforms instances, and parts of document (like subforms)
15:29:39 [unl]
Erik: we should have clear attributes for sources and targets
15:30:06 [unl]
... @target is very general, could be used on actions too
15:31:02 [unl]
Mark: this is a philosophical discussion
15:31:16 [unl]
John: take back that discussion to the mailing lists
15:31:33 [unl]
TOPIC: Basic XML Schema Patterns for Databinding
15:31:49 [unl]
John: George will tell us about
15:32:08 [unl]
George: i work for origo services in UK
15:33:03 [unl]
... work started 3 years ago
15:33:21 [unl]
... XML Schema 1.0 caused trouble for users
15:33:54 [John_Boyer]
Big variation in how much XML Schema is implemented by different tools
15:33:56 [unl]
... especially in Web service tools because of very different coverage of Schema
15:34:04 [Steven-eee]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:34:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven-eee
15:34:31 [unl]
please STOP! i need a break!
15:35:30 [John_Boyer]
scribe: John_Boyer
15:36:06 [John_Boyer]
George: schema patterns detection service. Feed schema or wsdl in, and it reports whether it conforms to pattern spec
15:36:21 [John_Boyer]
George: basic and advanced pattern specs
15:36:39 [John_Boyer]
George: advanced are recognized patterns, but you may not get a good experience from all toolkits
15:37:03 [John_Boyer]
George: last call period extends to end of month
15:37:18 [John_Boyer]
George: No impact on XForms.
15:38:14 [John_Boyer]
John: Is there a connection between these schema patterns and *generating* XForms?
15:38:35 [John_Boyer]
George: Not really, Mostly used in construction of good schema and wsdl
15:38:53 [John_Boyer]
Erik: Are you saying something specifically about SOAP?
15:39:12 [John_Boyer]
George: Yes, we're addressing SOAP-based web services because that is the arena for the toolkits
15:39:39 [John_Boyer]
Erik: There are not many tools that take schema and produces XForms, but that is the interest from this group
15:40:19 [John_Boyer]
Erik: Is it possible that if someone was following these patterns that it would facilitate forms generation?
15:40:46 [Steven-eee]
Cordys has a schema to xforms tool
15:40:50 [John_Boyer]
George: That would probably be a dangerous thing. We're working on limitations of existing toolkits for web services that don't support schema very well.
15:40:54 [Steven-eee]
I can imagine that other companies do too
15:41:20 [John_Boyer]
George: If you want to generate XForms, you would want to have better schema support than the limited toolkits we are addressing.
15:41:43 [John_Boyer]
George: XForms generation should not be limited to the basic patterns
15:42:32 [John_Boyer]
Erik: On the one hand, the basic patterns could provide a lowest common denominator, but are you saying the bar is too low?
15:42:52 [John_Boyer]
George: Yes. Pretty much all of the Origo schemas use advanced patterns
15:43:32 [John_Boyer]
George: Most of the schema produced by BT will conform however
15:43:43 [John_Boyer]
John: Could you explain the term 'data binding' in the title?
15:44:04 [John_Boyer]
George: Binding the data in an XML message with host language programming construct.
15:44:16 [John_Boyer]
George: You're binding data in XML to java or C#
15:44:17 [unl]
15:44:29 [John_Boyer]
Leigh: Can you give some examples of the tools that are doing this?
15:44:39 [John_Boyer]
George: Apache Axis 1 and 2
15:44:48 [John_Boyer]
George: .Net, WCF
15:44:48 [unl]
15:46:13 [unl]
15:46:22 [John_Boyer]
George: A data binding is created by a wsdl, and we want to translate that into code. But the schema patterns showing up in the wsdl docs do not always result in an ability to compile into code
15:48:32 [Zakim]
15:49:49 [ebruchez]
Thanks George
15:49:51 [Zakim]
15:49:56 [unl]
15:50:10 [John_Boyer]
John: We got the idea that maybe these patterns could be used to generate XForms "code"
15:50:15 [John_Boyer]
scribe: unl
15:50:55 [John_Boyer]
markbirbeck: Origo schemas are enormous and it is hard to generate XForms from them
15:51:18 [John_Boyer]
markbirbeck: Best practices for designing schemas with form use in mind would make a good NOTE
15:51:56 [unl]
Mark: schemas are created in a schema-driven way
15:52:05 [John_Boyer]
markbirbeck: yes. people get driven by schema practices, but those practices are not informed by notions of interactivity common in forms
15:52:08 [unl]
.. ot allow all kinds of extension points
15:52:29 [unl]
... but its hard to build forms on top of that
15:53:16 [unl]
Mark: we rolled out recently
15:53:27 [ebruchez]
sorry guys have to step out for a momnet
15:53:52 [unl]
... i have the permission to write a white paper, especially the xforms aspects of the project
15:54:49 [John_Boyer]
Action: MarkB to produce some public information about his observations on best practices for schema design with form use in mind and give link to group
15:54:49 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - MarkB
15:55:26 [unl]
15:55:44 [John_Boyer]
15:55:47 [Steven-eee]
I shall try again to get Cordys to come to our meeting in Amsterdam
15:55:48 [unl]
John: there were three emails which we should respond to
15:56:39 [unl]
John: it asks for architecture documents for XForms being available
15:56:51 [unl]
15:57:19 [unl]
John: anyone feeling guilty?
15:57:42 [unl]
ACTION: Charlie to respond to
15:57:42 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Charlie
15:59:17 [nick]
15:59:46 [unl]
John: next is about what Architectural Consistency actually means
16:00:13 [nick]
16:00:41 [unl]
John: Anne's response is much more concrete than Maciej's
16:01:04 [unl]
John: we need the high level principles as well as the specifics
16:01:30 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer has joined #forms
16:01:36 [nick]
16:03:31 [unl]
John: we need to respond to Anne's and Maciej's emails
16:04:10 [unl]
John: Sebastian indicated that he can't continue to work for TF
16:04:30 [unl]
John: anyone in the group who wants to join the TF?
16:04:45 [unl]
John: Keith, would you like to join?
16:04:58 [unl]
John: Erik, what about you?
16:05:07 [John_Boyer]
zakim, who is here?
16:05:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see unl (muted), wellsk (muted), ebruchez, John_Boyer, Roger, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Leigh_Klotz, markbirbeck, Charlie
16:05:10 [Zakim]
On IRC I see John_Boyer, Charlie, markbirbeck, klotz, nick, ebruchez, Roger, unl, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven-eee, shepazu, trackbot-ng
16:05:14 [wellsk]
zakim, unmute me
16:05:14 [Zakim]
wellsk should no longer be muted
16:05:39 [unl]
Keith: i could do
16:06:41 [unl]
Erik: i'm little wary to get into this ...
16:07:18 [unl]
John: thank you, keith
16:07:52 [unl]
John: you are the face of the Forms WG in the Forms TF but don't hesistate to put back work to the group
16:08:43 [unl]
John: back to the question of how to respond to Anne and Maciej
16:09:42 [unl]
John: any volunteer or should i do the first try on public-forms?
16:10:31 [unl]
ACTION: John to create a strawman for a reponse
16:10:31 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - John
16:10:31 [trackbot-ng]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer)
16:10:43 [nick]
If I know the groups standpoint, and I can agree with it, I can do that
16:11:39 [unl]
Mark: i can do this
16:12:43 [Zakim]
16:12:47 [unl]
John: we got to move forward with the task force, so please respond until friday
16:13:35 [unl]
Charlie: the Backplane XG officially kicked off.
16:14:31 [unl]
Charlie: see homepage for signing up
16:14:55 [unl]
John: Mark, Steven, whate about the message module?
16:15:15 [unl]
Mark: i already started with it but have to talk back to Steven
16:15:46 [Steven-eee]
I'll be home monday
16:17:26 [Zakim]
16:17:27 [Zakim]
16:17:27 [Zakim]
16:17:29 [Zakim]
16:17:29 [Zakim]
16:17:30 [Zakim]
16:17:30 [Zakim]
16:17:30 [Charlie]
Charlie has left #forms
16:17:34 [Roger]
Roger has left #forms
16:17:35 [wellsk]
16:17:48 [John_Boyer]
zakim, who is here?
16:17:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roger
16:17:51 [markbirbeck]
The point I'm making is that the presentation is all. :)
16:17:52 [Zakim]
On IRC I see John_Boyer, markbirbeck, klotz, nick, unl, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven-eee, shepazu, trackbot-ng
16:17:57 [Zakim]
16:17:59 [Zakim]
HTML_Forms()10:45AM has ended
16:18:01 [Zakim]
Attendees were unl, wellsk, George_Cowe, ebruchez, Susan_Borgrink, John_Boyer, Roger, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Leigh_Klotz, markbirbeck, Charlie
16:18:08 [John_Boyer]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:18:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate John_Boyer
16:18:11 [markbirbeck]
The actual mechanics and architecture of the message module is not that difficult.
16:18:21 [John_Boyer]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:18:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate John_Boyer
16:18:27 [John_Boyer]
rrsagent, bye
16:18:27 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in :
16:18:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MarkB to produce some public information about his observations on best practices for schema design with form use in mind and give link to group [1]
16:18:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:18:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Charlie to respond to [2]
16:18:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:18:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: John to create a strawman for a reponse [3]
16:18:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in