14:37:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:37:19 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-irc
14:37:25 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make log public
14:37:46 <John_Boyer> Meeting: Weekly Forms WG Teleconference
14:37:47 <Steven-eee> I can only participate by IRC
14:37:58 <Steven-eee> (at a conference, in a session)
14:37:59 <John_Boyer> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0055.html
14:38:18 <Steven-eee> RTP?
14:38:42 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0055.html
14:38:49 <John_Boyer> Chair: John
14:38:49 <Steven-eee> I wish W3C wouldn't use date sace for URI like that...
14:38:53 <John_Boyer> Scribe: Leigh
14:38:58 <John_Boyer> scribenick: klotz
14:39:00 <Steven-eee> s/sca/space/
14:39:15 <Steven-eee> s/sace/space/
14:39:23 <John_Boyer> Regrets: Kenneth, Joern, Steven (partial, on IRC)
14:39:38 <Steven-eee> Yes, Shepazu, that was the backplane we were talking about
14:39:56 <Steven-eee> shoulld be announced any day now
14:40:32 <wellsk> wellsk has joined #forms
14:41:32 <unl> unl has joined #forms
14:41:58 <shepazu> sweet, thanks
14:42:24 <Roger> Roger has joined #forms
14:44:42 <gcowe> gcowe has joined #forms
14:45:00 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()10:45AM has now started
14:45:07 <Zakim> +unl
14:45:17 <unl> zakim, mute me
14:45:17 <Zakim> sorry, unl, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
14:45:24 <Zakim> +wellsk
14:45:27 <Zakim> -unl
14:45:28 <Zakim> +unl
14:45:39 <unl> zakim, mute me
14:45:39 <Zakim> unl should now be muted
14:46:02 <Roger> zakim, code ?
14:46:02 <Zakim> the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Roger
14:46:12 <Zakim> +George_Cowe
14:46:17 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
14:46:27 <Zakim> +??P6
14:46:40 <ebruchez> zakim, ??P6 is ebruchez
14:46:40 <Zakim> +ebruchez; got it
14:47:35 <wellsk> zakim, who is here?
14:47:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see unl (muted), wellsk, George_Cowe, ebruchez
14:47:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see ebruchez, gcowe, Roger, unl, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, markbirbeck, Steven-eee, nick, shepazu, trackbot-ng
14:47:42 <John_Boyer> be right there
14:47:50 <Zakim> +Susan_Borgrink
14:48:25 <Steven-eee> Hi George, which company are you?
14:48:39 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
14:48:39 <nic1> nic1 has joined #forms
14:48:47 <gcowe> Hi - I'm with Origo Services
14:48:53 <Zakim> +??P9
14:48:56 <nic1> zakim, code?
14:48:56 <Zakim> the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nic1
14:48:59 <Roger> zakim, ??P9 is Roger
14:48:59 <Zakim> +Roger; got it
14:49:12 <John_Boyer> zakim, who is here?
14:49:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see unl (muted), wellsk, George_Cowe, ebruchez, Susan_Borgrink, John_Boyer, Roger
14:49:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see nic1, ebruchez, gcowe, Roger, unl, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, markbirbeck, Steven-eee, nick, shepazu, trackbot-ng
14:49:30 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
14:49:35 <John_Boyer> note agenda link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0055.html
14:49:37 <SusanB> SusanB has joined #forms
14:49:43 <Zakim> +Nick_van_den_Bleeken
14:49:58 <wellsk> zakim, mute me
14:49:58 <Zakim> wellsk should now be muted
14:50:36 <Zakim> +Leigh_Klotz
14:50:40 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has left #forms
14:50:45 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #forms
14:50:45 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has left #forms
14:51:14 <klotz> John did you get my note that I'd prefer not to minute today?
14:51:54 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #forms
14:52:06 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has left #forms
14:52:14 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #forms
14:52:14 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has left #forms
14:52:28 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #forms
14:52:43 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
14:52:43 <Zakim> the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
14:52:53 <John_Boyer> zakim, who is here?
14:52:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see unl (muted), wellsk (muted), George_Cowe, ebruchez, Susan_Borgrink, John_Boyer, Roger, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Leigh_Klotz
14:52:55 <unl> i can try, but i fear it will be hard 
14:52:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see markbirbeck, SusanB, klotz, nick, ebruchez, gcowe, Roger, unl, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, Steven-eee, shepazu, trackbot-ng
14:53:11 <klotz> thank you uli
14:53:25 <John_Boyer> Scribe: Uli
14:53:33 <John_Boyer> scribenick: unl
14:53:40 <unl> ok
14:55:00 <nick> TOPIC: Action Item List
14:55:23 <unl> John: any reports on action items?
14:56:09 <John_Boyer> Steven, were you able to do the triage of your actions?
14:56:42 <unl> John: lets try to make pogress
14:56:59 <Zakim> +markbirbeck
14:58:16 <nick> already done it
14:58:21 <unl> John: all, try to find a couple of hours till friday
14:58:26 <John_Boyer> We really need to make progress on the action items we committed to doing on the call
14:58:59 <unl> TOPIC: Bug Fix Issues
14:59:29 <unl> TOPIC: Thread for "Unfortunate name choice for target attribute"
14:59:41 <unl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0052.html
15:00:18 <unl> John: we have @target for instance replacement
15:00:41 <unl> ... maybe we can reuse it for @replace="all"
15:00:51 <nick> I've hit the send button, forgot to press it. So the updated action item list is on his way
15:01:38 <unl> ... there is history in using @target for frame targets in HTML
15:02:29 <unl> Leigh: ...
15:02:50 <markbirbeck> q+
15:02:54 <John_Boyer> 28<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0052.html> rnLeigh: CSS asked us to change repeat "cursor" to "index"
15:03:01 <unl> Erik: most xforms implemtations run in browsers today
15:03:07 <John_Boyer> Leigh: to avoid confusion
15:03:14 <unl> ... so form authors are used to HTML
15:03:59 <unl> ... we have apps like Google Docs where clicking on a link opens in a new window
15:04:20 <unl> ... we can do this with xf:load but not xf:submission
15:04:24 <John_Boyer> John: (earlier) @target when used for replace="instance" submission seems to do the analogous operation to targetting a replace="all" submission to a new window or to a frame
15:04:49 <John_Boyer> John: (earlier) so we could even look at using target with replace="all" later
15:04:59 <unl> ... would be natural to have sth. like target on xf:submission
15:06:10 <klotz> +q
15:06:13 <unl> Erik: xf:submission replace="all" target="_blank" would be nice
15:06:33 <unl> ... or something similar like in HTML
15:07:44 <unl> John: confusion is coming from having @target but behaving differently than in HTML
15:08:21 <John_Boyer> ack markbirbeck
15:08:21 <unl> Erik: reusing @target for frame names is confusing
15:09:01 <unl> ... because it would have a different content model for @replace="all"
15:09:59 <John_Boyer> markbirbeck: connected to modularisation
15:10:03 <unl> Mark: no reason why we should not have @target on xf:load and xf:submission in exactly the same way like in XHTML
15:10:28 <unl> ... modularization brought back @target, but it is only a hint
15:10:31 <John_Boyer> markbirbeck: @target is regarded as a hint for replace="all" case
15:11:16 <John_Boyer> markbirbeck: @target is a little confusing because of the different uses between replace instance and replace all
15:11:22 <John_Boyer> ack klotz
15:11:30 <unl> ... Erik is right, that reusing/ovrloading @target is confusing
15:11:43 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:11:56 <unl> Leigh: two points: agree with Erik regarding content models for attributes
15:12:05 <Charlie> Charlie has joined #forms
15:12:12 <unl> ... we should free ourselves from XML Schema
15:12:17 <Charlie> zakim, who is here?
15:12:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see unl (muted), wellsk (muted), George_Cowe, ebruchez, Susan_Borgrink, John_Boyer, Roger, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Leigh_Klotz, markbirbeck, [IBM]
15:12:20 <nick> it could always be an xpath expression, and then use target="'_blank'"
15:12:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see Charlie, markbirbeck, SusanB, klotz, nick, ebruchez, gcowe, Roger, unl, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, Steven-eee, shepazu, trackbot-ng
15:12:25 <Charlie> zakim, [IBM] is Charlie
15:12:25 <Zakim> +Charlie; got it
15:13:04 <nick> hmm maybe it isn't that clear I put single quotes around the _blank
15:13:08 <unl> Leigh: a child element for handling @replace="all"
15:13:19 <unl> sorry?
15:13:46 <John_Boyer> Ah, I see that Nick.  It's hard for users to do that.  They'll forget them and then not know why the target isn't working.
15:14:20 <klotz> it's as Raman would say bizzare for us to think that we know everything a host language needs for replace='all' so we should consider a child element instead an allow the host language to specify such attributes as target for frame.
15:14:46 <klotz> also i agree with erik on staying away from covariant attribute constraints until we free the specification from xml schema, which cannot express them
15:14:53 <nick> if _blank doesn't exists the result is the blank string ;)
15:15:29 <unl> John: it would be a significant change, when we change the schema
15:15:45 <unl> John: can we just change the name?
15:16:06 <unl> Erik: what does it take to make such a change?
15:16:32 <unl> John: in PR we would have to provide a rationale for this
15:16:49 <unl> ... otherwise going back to LC
15:17:09 <John_Boyer> Steven, is it possible to change target attr to some other name without going back to LC?
15:17:51 <unl> Erik: why not harmonizing with xf:insert which has @origin
15:17:58 <Steven-eee> I doubt it
15:18:07 <Steven-eee> that would be a pretty big change
15:18:20 <Steven-eee> we could restrict the LC to that feature only
15:19:02 <unl> John: wouldn't work since on xf:insert @origin determines the template, binding attributes determine the target
15:19:13 <klotz> +q
15:19:47 <markbirbeck> Also: http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2006/08/using-subforms-in-xforms.html
15:20:03 <unl> John: it would make schema validation even harder but we cannot validate xpath expressions anyway
15:20:46 <unl> Erik: but it would be the first time we introduce an attribute being capable of having and id or an xpath expression
15:21:14 <unl> ... schema support for this is not important to me
15:21:56 <unl> ... but we would allow two different types for one attribute
15:22:07 <markbirbeck> q+
15:22:22 <unl> John: we could use a literal xpath, as nick typed in the IRC
15:23:16 <unl> Erik: i understand, but you would have to write @target="'_blank'"
15:24:42 <John_Boyer> ack klotz
15:24:43 <unl> Erik: everything could be an xpath expression, but my preference would be AVTs to make things dynamic
15:25:16 <John_Boyer> ack markbirbeck
15:25:27 <unl> Leigh: don't want to overlaod an attribute with two different types
15:25:39 <unl> s/overlaod/overload
15:25:51 <unl> Leigh: a child element would be better
15:25:56 <klotz> I have no objections to leaving it as it is but.  If we want to start adding stuff I would prefer the child element because it can more easily accommodate other host languages.
15:26:31 <unl> sorry, Mark i didn't get it
15:27:53 <unl> Mark: three use cases: html frames, xforms instances, and parts of document (like subforms)
15:29:39 <unl> Erik: we should have clear attributes for sources and targets
15:30:06 <unl> ... @target is very general, could be used on actions too
15:31:02 <unl> Mark: this is a philosophical discussion
15:31:16 <unl> John: take back that discussion to the mailing lists
15:31:33 <unl> TOPIC: Basic XML Schema Patterns for Databinding
15:31:49 <unl> John: George will tell us about
15:32:08 <unl> George: i work for origo services in UK
15:33:03 <unl> ... work started 3 years ago
15:33:21 <unl> ... XML Schema 1.0 caused trouble for users
15:33:54 <John_Boyer> Big variation in how much XML Schema is implemented by different tools
15:33:56 <unl> ... especially in Web service tools because of very different coverage of Schema
15:34:04 <Steven-eee> rrsagent, make minutes
15:34:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-minutes.html Steven-eee
15:34:31 <unl> please STOP! i need a break!
15:35:30 <John_Boyer> scribe: John_Boyer
15:36:06 <John_Boyer> George: schema patterns detection service.  Feed schema or wsdl in, and it reports whether it conforms to pattern spec
15:36:21 <John_Boyer> George: basic and advanced pattern specs
15:36:39 <John_Boyer> George: advanced are recognized patterns, but you may not get a good experience from all toolkits
15:37:03 <John_Boyer> George: last call period extends to end of month
15:37:18 <John_Boyer> George: No impact on XForms.
15:38:14 <John_Boyer> John: Is there a connection between these schema patterns and *generating* XForms?
15:38:35 <John_Boyer> George: Not really, Mostly used in construction of good schema and wsdl
15:38:53 <John_Boyer> Erik: Are you saying something specifically about SOAP?
15:39:12 <John_Boyer> George: Yes, we're addressing SOAP-based web services because that is the arena for the toolkits
15:39:39 <John_Boyer> Erik: There are not many tools that take schema and produces XForms, but that is the interest from this group
15:40:19 <John_Boyer> Erik: Is it possible that if someone was following these patterns that it would facilitate forms generation?
15:40:46 <Steven-eee> Cordys has a schema to xforms tool
15:40:50 <John_Boyer> George: That would probably be a dangerous thing.  We're working on limitations of existing toolkits for web services that don't support schema very well.
15:40:54 <Steven-eee> I can imagine that other companies do too
15:41:20 <John_Boyer> George: If you want to generate XForms, you would want to have better schema support than the limited toolkits we are addressing.
15:41:43 <John_Boyer> George: XForms generation should not be limited to the basic patterns
15:42:32 <John_Boyer> Erik: On the one hand, the basic patterns could provide a lowest common denominator, but are you saying the bar is too low?
15:42:52 <John_Boyer> George: Yes. Pretty much all of the Origo schemas use advanced patterns
15:43:32 <John_Boyer> George: Most of the schema produced by BT will conform however
15:43:43 <John_Boyer> John: Could you explain the term 'data binding' in the title?
15:44:04 <John_Boyer> George: Binding the data in an XML message with host language programming construct.
15:44:16 <John_Boyer> George: You're binding data in XML to java or C#
15:44:17 <unl> Axis
15:44:29 <John_Boyer> Leigh: Can you give some examples of the tools that are doing this?
15:44:39 <John_Boyer> George: Apache Axis 1 and 2
15:44:48 <John_Boyer> George: .Net, WCF
15:44:48 <unl> JAX-RPC, JIBX, etc
15:46:13 <unl> s/JAX-RPC/JAXB
15:46:22 <John_Boyer> George: A data binding is created by a wsdl, and we want to translate that into code.  But the schema patterns showing up in the wsdl docs do not always result in an ability to compile into code
15:48:32 <Zakim> -Susan_Borgrink
15:49:49 <ebruchez> Thanks George
15:49:51 <Zakim> -George_Cowe
15:49:56 <unl> ok
15:50:10 <John_Boyer> John: We got the idea that maybe these patterns could be used to generate XForms "code"
15:50:15 <John_Boyer> scribe: unl
15:50:55 <John_Boyer> markbirbeck: Origo schemas are enormous and it is hard to generate XForms from them
15:51:18 <John_Boyer> markbirbeck: Best practices for designing schemas with form use in mind would make a good NOTE
15:51:56 <unl> Mark: schemas are created in a schema-driven way
15:52:05 <John_Boyer> markbirbeck: yes.  people get driven by schema practices, but those practices are not informed by notions of interactivity common in forms
15:52:08 <unl> .. ot allow all kinds of extension points
15:52:29 <unl> ... but its hard to build forms on top of that
15:53:16 <unl> Mark: we rolled out recently
15:53:27 <ebruchez> sorry guys have to step out for a momnet
15:53:52 <unl> ... i have the permission to write a white paper, especially the xforms aspects of the project
15:54:49 <John_Boyer> Action: MarkB to produce some public information about his observations on best practices for schema design with form use in mind and give link to group
15:54:49 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - MarkB
15:55:26 <unl> TOPIC: Forms TF
15:55:44 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Apr/0025.html
15:55:47 <Steven-eee> I shall try again to get Cordys to come to our meeting in Amsterdam
15:55:48 <unl> John: there were three emails which we should respond to
15:56:39 <unl> John: it asks for architecture documents for XForms being available
15:56:51 <unl> s/it/first
15:57:19 <unl> John: anyone feeling guilty?
15:57:42 <unl> ACTION: Charlie to respond to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Apr/0025.html
15:57:42 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Charlie
15:59:17 <nick> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Apr/0024.html
15:59:46 <unl> John: next is about what Architectural Consistency actually means
16:00:13 <nick> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Apr/0017.html
16:00:41 <unl> John: Anne's response is much more concrete than Maciej's
16:01:04 <unl> John: we need the high level principles as well as the specifics
16:01:30 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
16:01:36 <nick> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0056.html
16:03:31 <unl> John: we need to respond to Anne's and Maciej's emails
16:04:10 <unl> John: Sebastian indicated that he can't continue to work for TF
16:04:30 <unl> John: anyone in the group who wants to join the TF?
16:04:45 <unl> John: Keith, would you like to join?
16:04:58 <unl> John: Erik, what about you?
16:05:07 <John_Boyer> zakim, who is here?
16:05:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see unl (muted), wellsk (muted), ebruchez, John_Boyer, Roger, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Leigh_Klotz, markbirbeck, Charlie
16:05:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see John_Boyer, Charlie, markbirbeck, klotz, nick, ebruchez, Roger, unl, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven-eee, shepazu, trackbot-ng
16:05:14 <wellsk> zakim, unmute me
16:05:14 <Zakim> wellsk should no longer be muted
16:05:39 <unl> Keith: i could do
16:06:41 <unl> Erik: i'm little wary to get into this ...
16:07:18 <unl> John: thank you, keith
16:07:52 <unl> John: you are the face of the Forms WG in the Forms TF but don't hesistate to put back work to the group
16:08:43 <unl> John: back to the question of how to respond to Anne and Maciej
16:09:42 <unl> John: any volunteer or should i do the first try on public-forms?
16:10:31 <unl> ACTION: John to create a strawman for a reponse
16:10:31 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - John
16:10:31 <trackbot-ng> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer)
16:10:43 <nick> If I know the groups standpoint, and I can agree with it, I can do that
16:11:39 <unl> Mark: i can do this
16:12:43 <Zakim> -ebruchez
16:12:47 <unl> John: we got to move forward with the task force, so please respond until friday
16:13:35 <unl> Charlie: the Backplane XG officially kicked off.
16:14:31 <unl> Charlie: see homepage for signing up
16:14:55 <unl> John: Mark, Steven, whate about the message module?
16:15:15 <unl> Mark: i already started with it but have to talk back to Steven
16:15:46 <Steven-eee> I'll be home monday
16:17:26 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
16:17:27 <Zakim> -Leigh_Klotz
16:17:27 <Zakim> -wellsk
16:17:29 <Zakim> -Nick_van_den_Bleeken
16:17:29 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
16:17:30 <Zakim> -Charlie
16:17:30 <Zakim> -unl
16:17:30 <Charlie> Charlie has left #forms
16:17:34 <Roger> Roger has left #forms
16:17:35 <wellsk>  /leave
16:17:48 <John_Boyer> zakim, who is here?
16:17:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roger
16:17:51 <markbirbeck> The point I'm making is that the presentation is all. :)
16:17:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see John_Boyer, markbirbeck, klotz, nick, unl, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven-eee, shepazu, trackbot-ng
16:17:57 <Zakim> -Roger
16:17:59 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()10:45AM has ended
16:18:01 <Zakim> Attendees were unl, wellsk, George_Cowe, ebruchez, Susan_Borgrink, John_Boyer, Roger, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Leigh_Klotz, markbirbeck, Charlie
16:18:08 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
16:18:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
16:18:11 <markbirbeck> The actual mechanics and architecture of the message module is not that difficult.
16:18:21 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
16:18:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
16:18:27 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, bye
16:18:27 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-actions.rdf :
16:18:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: MarkB to produce some public information about his observations on best practices for schema design with form use in mind and give link to group [1]
16:18:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-irc#T15-54-49
16:18:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Charlie to respond to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Apr/0025.html [2]
16:18:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-irc#T15-57-42
16:18:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: John to create a strawman for a reponse [3]
16:18:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-forms-irc#T16-10-31