IRC log of tp on 2007-11-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:41:01 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
13:41:09 [Ralph]
rrsagent, please make record member-visible
13:41:11 [mauro]
mauro has changed the topic to: Technical Plenary Day
13:41:16 [Ralph]
Meeting: Technical Plenary
13:41:25 [Zakim]
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13:41:25 [mauro]
mauro has changed the topic to: Technical Plenary Day - agenda at
13:41:32 [Ralph]
zakim, this will be tp
13:41:32 [Zakim]
ok, Ralph, I see W3C_TP()8:00AM already started
13:41:42 [DanC_lap]
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13:42:56 [raman]
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13:43:06 [DanC_lap]
how about side chat? mix it in here or encourage it to go elsewhere by making #tp-backchannel and noting it in the /topic ?
13:43:23 [Steven]
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13:43:25 [raman]
Morning all
13:43:32 [Steven]
hi Raman
13:43:35 [mauro]
morning raman
13:43:37 [DanC_lap]
morning raman. any opinion about side chat?
13:44:08 [raman]
I'd rather see it all in one place.
13:44:10 [Steven]
zakim, who is in the phone?
13:44:10 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, Steven.
13:44:14 [moshe]
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13:44:18 [Zakim]
13:44:24 [Steven]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:44:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see no one
13:44:31 [Norm]
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13:44:48 [raman]
in the spirit of side-chat == marginal notes, and that margins can often hold important proofs ;-)
13:44:53 [ht]
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13:45:03 [mauro]
+1 to raman
13:45:27 [Zakim]
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13:47:57 [DanC_lap]
I hear pepole who haven't been given the password are gathering in #tpac
13:48:00 [mauro]
mauro has changed the topic to: W3C Technical Plenary Day - agenda at
13:48:15 [barstow]
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13:48:16 [Mez]
well go over there and tell them they're in the wrong place
13:48:19 [maxf]
zakim, who's here?
13:48:19 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Captioner (muted), MeetingRoom
13:48:20 [Zakim]
On IRC I see barstow, Mez, maxf, marie, amy, clc4tts, ht, PGrosso, timbl_, Norm, moshe, Steven, raman, DanC_lap, Zakim, RRSAgent, najib, Ralph, mauro, karl, fsasaki, olivier, ivan,
13:48:22 [Zakim]
... Keeper, Yves, ted
13:48:24 [amy]
what does "given the password" mean?
13:48:43 [ht]
this channel is pw-protected, I was told
13:48:44 [amy]
isn't it available to anyone attending?
13:48:46 [maxf]
it's not on the agenda
13:48:46 [Mez]
normal people needed a password to get here amy
13:49:10 [DanC_lap]
I went over there (#tpac); the topic doesn't suggest they're in the wrong place, and the people there are not just the disenfranchised.
13:49:21 [amy]
sorry, Mez, wasn't questioning who can get on, just questioning where the info should be! sorry, being logistical :)
13:49:34 [Mez]
sorry if I sounded rude; must be my irc voice :-)
13:49:36 [amy]
13:49:46 [raman]
her irked voice;-)
13:49:52 [Mez]
13:50:01 [DanC_lap]
amy, the password hasn't been announced, I'm pretty sure. ah. there. steve is announcing it.
13:50:02 [glazou]
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13:50:28 [amy]
ah, ok, good
13:50:37 [raman]
one web to bind them all
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13:50:44 [raman]
one irc chanel to gather them all
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13:50:48 [Mez]
raman you slay me
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13:52:10 [matt]
zakim, dial matt-voip
13:52:10 [Zakim]
ok, matt; the call is being made
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zakim, mute me
13:52:38 [Zakim]
Matt was already muted, matt
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join #tp beantown
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zakim, drop matt
13:53:37 [Zakim]
Matt is being disconnected
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13:54:11 [mauro]
Steve Bratt welcomes everybody and goes through the agenda of the week
13:54:16 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
13:54:16 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
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13:55:15 [raman]
all it takes is a bad talk to get a lot of boos ;-)
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13:55:22 [Mez]
bad pun man
13:55:40 [Hixie]
anyone know the username/password for the realtime captioning?
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13:55:54 [maxf]
Hi ivan!
13:56:05 [matt]
zakim, dial matt-voip
13:56:05 [Zakim]
ok, matt; the call is being made
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13:56:17 [DS]
help /wave
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13:56:24 [ted]
we are doing an experimental audio broadcast of today @ and includes an ogg vorbis java applet client
13:56:29 [mauro]
-> Feedback on the 2007 Technical Plenary and Advisory Committee meetings week (TPAC2007)
13:56:33 [matt]
zakim, who is talking?
13:56:41 [Eman]
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13:56:51 [Zakim]
matt, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
13:56:52 [AaronGustafson]
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13:57:14 [karl]
hmmmmm steve bratt didn't mention that people could blog about the session today
13:57:22 [Steven]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:57:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Captioner (muted), MeetingRoom, Matt (muted), Ivan (muted)
13:57:26 [karl]
13:57:30 [raman]
he didn't say we couldn't -- so there
13:57:35 [DanC_lap]
no? I thought he just did [encourage blogging], Karl
13:57:43 [Henny]
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13:57:45 [karl]
If you are taking photos, blogging, etc. use one of these tags "tpac, tpac2007, w3c, w3c_tpac07"
13:57:49 [DanC_lap]
Toipc: Session 2: View from the Outside: Real World Perspectives on the W3C
13:57:49 [maxf]
Hixie, any password any login work
13:57:54 [karl]
DanC_lap: then I have to wake up ;)
13:57:59 [maxf]
13:58:02 [maxf]
pretty cool!
13:58:10 [caribou]
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13:58:26 [matt]
zakim, drop matt
13:58:26 [Zakim]
Matt is being disconnected
13:58:27 [Zakim]
13:58:32 [mauro]
13:58:33 [mauro]
Molly E. Holzschlag (Web Standards and Practices Education and Outreach, Molly.Com, Inc.)
13:58:41 [matt]
zakim, dial matt-voip
13:58:41 [Zakim]
ok, matt; the call is being made
13:58:42 [Zakim]
13:58:44 [Hixie]
maxf: cool
13:58:58 [mauro]
Session 2: View from the Outside: Real World Perspectives on the W3C
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13:59:21 [plh]
rrsagent, where am I?
13:59:21 [RRSAgent]
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13:59:25 [matt]
zakim, dial matt-voip
13:59:25 [Zakim]
ok, matt; the call is being made
13:59:27 [Zakim]
13:59:57 [Zakim]
14:00:00 [fantasai]
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14:00:01 [KevinLawver]
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14:00:42 [Mez]
the tower; my least favorite card in the tarot deck
14:01:03 [Julian]
join tp beantown
14:01:15 [matt]
zakim, dial matt-voip
14:01:15 [Zakim]
ok, matt; the call is being made
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14:01:17 [Zakim]
14:01:23 [raman]
how do you build a tower out of ivory ... have always wondered ...
14:01:31 [matt]
zakim, mute matt
14:01:31 [Zakim]
Matt was already muted, matt
14:01:32 [Julian]
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14:01:47 [Mez]
lots of sad, dead elephants (I don't "read" it as an ivory tower; that's Molly's call)
14:02:06 [fantasai]
raman: you'd need some other material to bind it
14:02:12 [raman]
Whos' the large elephant in the room that no one can see;-)
14:02:14 [mauro]
Molly E. Holzschlag introduces Aaron Gustafson (Easy! Designs, Inc.)
14:02:22 [fantasai]
but concrete towers aren't all concrete anyway; they're also part steel
14:02:25 [jo]
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14:02:58 [mauro]
Molly E. Holzschlag introduces Patrick Haney (Harvard)
14:03:16 [raman]
captioning should create better minutes/transcripts
14:03:17 [mauro]
Molly E. Holzschlag introduces Matthew Oliphant (MathWorks)
14:03:18 [maxf]
fantasai, we're trying to show we can do better collaboratively ;)
14:03:50 [s-mon]
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14:04:06 [mauro]
Molly E. Holzschlag introduces Stephanie Troeth (CloudRaker)
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14:04:28 [AaronGustafson]
I am one of the panelists and will be trying to keep an eye on this channel for remote questions during the Q&A period. I can't guarantee we'll be able to get to all of them, but we will certainly try.
14:04:47 [Mez]
I didn't quite follow all the intros, but it looks like several folks are in
14:04:47 [danz]
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14:07:31 [Mez]
steph, my specialty interest is usable security (we're working a standard in that area in WSC). Did I catch right that you are in WaSP? Is there anything going on in an area related to usable security there?
14:08:12 [raman]
would be nice if captioning were available as a simple separate IRC channel.
14:08:41 [steph]
Mez: i was in the WaSP :) perhaps let's catch up after this.
14:08:55 [Mez]
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14:09:33 [raman]
the default on that web site is to refresh transcripts every second --- sounds like overkill
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14:11:04 [raman]
room is echoing -- acoustically not a good room
14:11:05 [MikeSmith]
AaronGustafson - having trouble hearing Molly
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14:12:13 [raman]
w3c specifications were never intended for use by end authors -- they've always been targetted at implementors. Confusing the audience leads to bad specifications
14:12:21 [fantasai]
anne, yeah, I agree that a lot of our specs could be written better but it's very unlikely that we can write them precisely enough for implementors and metaphorically enough for authors
14:12:46 [fantasai]
authors should be reading derived material
14:12:51 [karl]
anne, if web designers and web developers do not have to read the spec. Then there is a missing piece that web developers/designers still needs. I think it is the crux of the comment. "We have to read the spec because there's no other source."
14:12:52 [anne]
i think they should work for pedantic authors, not for average authors
14:13:26 [LeeF]
In reality (well, IME), though, the derivative materials don't exist early enough to let non-implementors participate in the consensus / review process
14:13:26 [raman]
I always compile with gcc --pedantic -- but I've never read the ANSI standard for C
14:13:44 [ivan]
dom, what is the user/password for the captioning?
14:13:45 [karl]
the message is "hey we want to understand your stuff". "your stuff is created at W3C". "where on w3c site can I find help for editing."
14:13:46 [MikeSmith]
KevinLawver - probably the same thing that would happen to the anti-virus industry if ...
14:13:47 [anne]
that said, the technology should be simple enough to use for average authors, obviously
14:14:03 [Steven]
ivan, there is no user/pass
14:14:09 [anne]
intuitive, if you will
14:14:14 [fantasai]
and the terminology in the interface/API/syntax should be targetted at them
14:14:27 [dom]
ivan, you just have to sell your sour^W^W^W enter your name and companie's name
14:14:46 [soonho]
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14:15:16 [anne]
karl, don't people write books and tutorials on how to do stuff all the time?
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14:15:30 [karl]
anne, reference point.
14:15:42 [karl]
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14:15:54 [steph]
anne: often it's a case of too much information, not always consistent
14:16:06 [Ralph]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:16:06 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Captioner (muted), MeetingRoom, Matt (muted), Ivan (muted)
14:16:07 [mjs]
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14:16:08 [AaronGustafson]
please send questions direct to me
14:16:11 [moshe]
I wrote a book that mentions the values of standards... by analogy to 150 years ago, when manufacturers accepted standard sizes for nuts and bolts.
14:16:12 [timbl_]
So W3C should produce materials to he;p developer's *managers* understand why the w3C technology is important
14:16:14 [AaronGustafson]
will make it easier to keep track
14:16:19 [raman]
the stumbling block has not been lack of educational materials -- the problem has been lack of good interoperable implementations that work like what the educational materials try to teach
14:16:33 [Jules]
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14:17:07 [raman]
dont think we should produce things for managers ... Darwin will take care of clueless managers over time;-)
14:17:09 [fantasai]
AaronGustafson: see KevinLawver's comments above
14:17:21 [karl]
raman, that is true. ANd there is also the high variability of quality in books.
14:17:37 [Hixie]
(is there an offtopic irc channel to where we should repair the general chat?)
14:17:40 [klaus_]
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14:18:32 [maxf]
that's how you learn!
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14:19:20 [raman]
and people are still doing browser-specific code -- he's making it sound like that was all in the past...
14:19:23 [anne]
well, interop is certainly a problem
14:19:23 [MikeSmith]
Hixie - #tp ?
14:19:25 [John_Boyer]
Seem to need more participation on the *public* mailing lists. Discussion is invited in the status of the document.
14:19:34 [anne]
testcases anyone?
14:19:42 [s-mon]
+1 to raman.
14:19:49 [Hixie]
MikeSmith: fair enough :-)
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14:21:06 [DanC_lap]
re platform for innovation... that's my motivation for chairing the HTML WG
14:21:14 [hsivonen]
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14:21:27 [tantek]
greetings from San Francisco
14:21:34 [RCutler]
There are multiple levels of indirection between standards and the managers who make the $ commitmeents. That doesn't make them clueless, but it does mean that it is difficult for you to target them.
14:21:36 [raman]
Hey Tantek!
14:21:37 [moshe]
standards do not inhibit innovation. standard nuts and bolts in automobiles let the designers focus on overall form and function instead of creating custom nuts and bolts.
14:22:11 [steph]
moshe: +1
14:22:12 [CharlieW]
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14:22:13 [Mez]
if you have a standards effort that is a response to a vulnerability, there can be innovation that relies on that vulnerability
14:22:22 [tantek]
hey Raman. regrets I could not be there in person.
14:22:30 [timbl_]
tantek, pity you coudn't be herein person
14:22:44 [mjs]
hi tantek
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14:22:56 [Mez]
all those custom bolt people can no longer innovate in bolts
14:23:00 [raman]
tantek: we miss you (':' intentionally used)
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14:23:41 [steph]
our green light appears to be stuck
14:23:54 [KevinLawver]
The general web development community's (of which I'm a part) frustration is NOT with the standard itself. It's with browsers (like TV said). They're tired of waiting for things like multiple backgrounds, border radius, display: table, a "real" layout system, etc.
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14:24:18 [moshe]
Mez, this whole panel discussion sounds like the descriptions of the first meetings when people discussed adopting standardized nuts and bolts. Same arguments.
14:24:27 [John_Boyer]
standards accelerate innovation by increasing aperture of information flow (not just data flow)
14:24:30 [mjs]
KevinLawver: sounds like when you say "browsers" you mean "Internet Explorer"
14:24:39 [KevinLawver]
We mostly understand the benefits, but the definition of "standards" to almost all of my colleagues is "the hacks I have to use to make it work in IE" not the specs themselves.
14:24:52 [Rafa]
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14:24:55 [raman]
browsers should focus on doing standards right -- rather than continuously aiming for bug-compatibility across browsers
14:25:01 [RCutler]
How long ago were nuts and bolts standardized? Is this really in living memory?
14:25:19 [moshe]
no, it was in the 1850's
14:25:24 [moshe]
so we have some reports
14:25:27 [tantek]
timbl_: thanks and agreed. i will do my best to participate thru IRC. i also have an iSight and Skype/iChat with sufficient bandwidth if there is someone near the front of the room willing to share.
14:25:30 [anne]
raman, supporting existing content is important, especially to our end users
14:25:48 [raman]
if nuts and bolts were done today's web-browser way, we'd all carry around bagfuls of wrenches out of fear that you'd run into a badly designed legacy bolt any minute
14:25:49 [Mez],9171,741291,00.html
14:26:01 [John_Boyer]
Anne, existing content is not expressed in the new versions of the language
14:26:04 [mjs]
supporting existing content is the way you get to have enough end users to fund implementing standards
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14:26:21 [John_Boyer]
14:26:27 [steph]
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14:27:02 [DanC_lap]
"very disheartened by the massive gaps". I think we can do better about managing expectations around HTML and CSS schedules. more on that Saturday in the HTML WG meeting.
14:27:04 [raman]
anne -- support existing content all you like -- but as long as that remains the focus, as opposed to say "doing html and css right" --- people will continue to author more junk for you to "support" and that is a death spiral
14:27:20 [MikeSmith]
I'm surprised that Alex Russell is surprised that standards are very good at innovating and inventing.
14:27:21 [raman]
think "support" == "tolerate";-)
14:27:23 [Hixie]
DanC_lap: we're going to adopt my original proposed timetable? :-D
14:27:29 [DanC_lap]
14:27:34 [hsivonen]
does dojo even work in application/xhtml+xml?
14:27:36 [MikeSmith]
s/are very good/aren't very good/
14:27:46 [DanC_lap]
I do think we should talk about your proposed timetable and mine.
14:27:59 [moshe]
During WWII, the US auto companies had to run a separate production line for the Brits, since the US and Brits had separate standards for nuts and bolts. The US standard was better, btw, from a tech standpoint.
14:28:12 [mjs]
standards are better at standardizing things that already exist than at innovating
14:28:13 [ddahl]
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14:28:28 [MikeSmith]
Heresy or naivetè?
14:28:30 [mjs]
(and cleaning off the rough edges)
14:28:37 [John_Boyer]
It is impossible to reach for higher goals without a higher platform.
14:28:45 [KevinLawver]
@hsivonen No, it doesn't, because no one in the "real" web uses application/xhtml+xml. Dojo is very pragmatic.
14:28:48 [Hixie]
(CSS2 would be in candidate recommendation as well if CR had existed back then)
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14:29:07 [anne]
raman, we're actively improving the HTML and CSS standards at the W3C, but there's only so many resources
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14:29:20 [DanC_lap]
I mostly side with mjs re standards and when to start a W3C WG [when you're ready to share test cases, basically], but I think a mix of more optimistic perspectives are also healthy.
14:29:25 [shepazu]
14:29:26 [anne]
(improving them to meet real world constraints)
14:29:30 [tantek]
the processing model of application/xhtml+xml has never been sufficiently defined to provide similar functionality to the de facto processing model of text/html
14:29:33 [DanC_lap]
s/are also/is also/
14:29:34 [shawn]
+1 to open, but not well communicated
14:29:34 [s-mon]
14:29:35 [Mez]
John_Boyer, I'm reminded of the stories of my ex-USSR colleagues back in the late 80's. they said in the USSR they carried tapes of their own tools they wrote (editors, compilers) from job to job
14:29:59 [Hixie]
tantek: html5 is working on that. it'll take a while though.
14:30:03 [shepazu]
the process is open, but we need to clarify how to do that... that's a big push I'll be doing with the new SVG Interest Group
14:30:05 [RCutler]
That sounds like stealing to me.
14:30:16 [DanC_lap]
the "there's only so many resources" line is a pet pieve of mine. It means "I'm tired of recruiting" or something.
14:30:28 [tantek]
Hixie, is that html5 or xhtml5? :)
14:30:32 [maxf]
it's a shame we can't complete the [indiscernible] bits in the live transcript
14:30:33 [Hixie]
tantek: yes. :-)
14:30:34 [MikeSmith]
Fun to play the heretic but not terrifically productive
14:30:43 [Hixie]
tantek: but i meant "html 5" the spec.
14:30:44 [FABLET]
join #tp beantown
14:30:55 [maxf]
14:30:56 [Hixie]
tantek: (as opposed to html5 the serialisation)
14:31:19 [Marcos]
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14:31:38 [raman]
I said it at the time "amsterdam 2000" and I still say it -- forking out the html mime time and creating application/xml+xhtml was just a major mistake. We should have put in the framework in place using the DOM as it existed to help text/html transition smoothly to clean content.
14:32:10 [Henny]
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14:32:22 [karl]
14:32:23 [tantek]
raman: +1
14:32:29 [shepazu]
w3c needs to do more "marketing" of the spec, including tutorials and working more closely with designers and developers
14:32:33 [anne]
14:32:42 [FABLET]
join #tp [beantown]
14:32:52 [Hixie]
FABLET: you're in #tp already :-)
14:32:53 [jo]
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14:33:05 [tantek]
Hixie: +1. (as happened clearly with microformats as well)
14:33:12 [Hixie]
14:33:16 [glazou]
hey tantek :)
14:33:20 [DanC_lap]
re waterfall... yeah... I made that point in public-html ...
14:33:25 [raman]
Today we're heading down the same death spiral that in the mid-90's eventually caused browsers to become incapable of handling correct content given their kluges to handle bad content
14:33:29 [FABLET]
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14:33:39 [anne]
raman, not really
14:33:39 [shepazu]
it depends on what you mean by marketing... it can just be a matter of communication
14:34:00 [Hixie]
shepazu: certainly there should be information available, i just mean push marketing
14:34:01 [anne]
raman, we're getting closer to a model that handles both, CSS has had that for years, HTML is getting it now
14:34:07 [brutzman]
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14:34:08 [tantek]
raman: what makes you say that? from where I sit, we are heading towards browsers that handle more and more semantic content on the Web. a richer experience with every veresion.
14:34:12 [mjs]
to the extent browsers are changing, it's mainly towards more standards-compliance
14:34:21 [moshe]
I dare you to read the Xforms spec and try to figure out, from the intro, just what the spec is supposed to do.
14:34:29 [DanC_lap]
"Concurrent iteration is a bit chaotic, but a strict
14:34:29 [DanC_lap]
waterfall approach seems like a poor use of available resources." --
14:34:34 [shepazu]
Hixie: I agree on the whole, but there can be coordination efforts with our members
14:34:43 [Mez]
reading specs is like reading Shakespeare; it's a specialty kind of thing that only comes with practice
14:34:54 [klaus]
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14:34:57 [AnnBassetti]
and the average person won't do it
14:34:57 [Hixie]
shepazu: there can, my argument is that there shouldn't be.
14:34:59 [Mez]
perhaps we should perform our specs...
14:35:04 [KevinLawver]
Do we need to start doing SCRUM in working groups?
14:35:17 [Marcos]
the specs would be 20 times bigger and would take twice as long to make if we have to cater for designers.
14:35:25 [moshe]
Mez, I think I should be able to pick up a spec and figure out what it's supposed to accomplish. I shouldn't have to go to Wikipedia to figure it out
14:35:27 [glazou]
KevinLawver: agreed (about the 3-5 years)
14:35:28 [shepazu]
KevinLawver: then we'd end up with scrumlords
14:35:34 [DanC_lap]
I find studying things like SCRUM worthwhile
14:35:44 [Hixie]
shepazu: otherwise you create a fake bubble of hype and get caught up in it -- and fail to see feedback from the audience when they say the spec doesn't address their needs. we've seen that before in w3c.
14:35:46 [Mez]
why can't there be an overlay to specs for "normal"people (to Marcos comment)
14:35:47 [moshe]
Just one paragraph, Mez, that's all I ask
14:35:49 [KevinLawver]
@shepazu Isn't that what chars are supposed to be anyway?
14:35:52 [mjs]
specs are not software
14:35:57 [KevinLawver]
Sorry, chairs.
14:35:57 [John_Boyer]
Doing scrum in working groups might clarify who the specs are for (and who they're not for). This panel is illustrating the need for a spec for implementers and a primer for users of the implementations
14:36:05 [mjs]
software development methodologies do not necessarily apply
14:36:06 [shawn]
+1 to considering SCRUM like trial...
14:36:08 [Mez]
ok moshe, I'll try to get that one paragraph in WSC
14:36:11 [LeeF]
+1 to spec & primer
14:36:13 [Mez]
what does it need to address?
14:36:25 [moshe]
"This spec allows me to..."
14:36:31 [Mez]
got it
14:36:33 [KevinLawver]
I'd hate to write Molly, Eric Meyer and others out of a job. ;)
14:36:36 [raman]
I must say the IRC chat is more interesting than the panel ... or is it just me?
14:36:37 [moshe]
Or something else that explains the basic concept
14:36:40 [klaus_]
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14:36:41 [DanC_lap]
"test cases, you know, use cases" . Amen! story telling and test cases.
14:36:46 [shepazu]
Hixie: agreed, it shoudl be communication of real functionality, not hype... things like real-world conformance matrices to show what works where
14:36:47 [anne]
testcases ftw too, indeed
14:36:55 [MSM]
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14:37:14 [dom]
-> agile software development method for project management.
14:37:18 [DanC_lap]
glazou, my lightning talk is about test cases... vote for it, please.
14:37:24 [shepazu]
test suites are becoming much more important, at least in the Interaction domain
14:37:25 [KevinLawver]
We're going to start doing this in CSS - looking at user-based design and coming up with personas and use cases for the specs to provide a good user-base relevant portal to CSS.
14:37:25 [Hixie]
shepazu: yeah that would be very useful
14:37:27 [glazou]
DanC_lap: sure
14:37:40 [DanC_lap]
ooh... Karl, Oliver, how about that for at tile? "Story Telling and Test Cases"
14:37:50 [karl]
14:37:57 [dom]
The mobile web test suites working group has set up a test harness that allows to collect results from test suites: , results at
14:38:06 [clc4tts]
where is the voting anyway?
14:38:19 [s-mon]
but it seems the community is perpetuationg the perception. how do you change a perception that you, yourself, are perpetuationg.
14:38:20 [dom]
(it's primarily targeted at mobile web browsers, but works alright with desktop browsers as wellà
14:38:25 [KevinLawver]
Well, two out of three blames being accurate's not bad. ;)
14:38:41 [karl]
DanC_lap: we still have to do the slides. That will be a lightning Slides Editing from olivier and me, maybe followed by lightning talks :p
14:38:43 [KevinLawver]
I never blame myself. It's always the browser's fault.
14:38:53 [citizenspace]
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14:38:57 [shepazu]
Hixie: specifically, conformance matrices that pull together different specs, like HTML, CSS, SVG, etc... so they just have to look in one place, not a dozen
14:39:02 [Bert]
Too often, when people say {W3C, a WG} doesn't listen to users, they mean it doesn't listen to "them* :-(
14:39:10 [matt]
clc4tts, voting for the Lightning Talk Wild Card was going to be done via IRC during the second session of LTs.
14:39:21 [shepazu]
... obviously, with some filtering available.... ;)
14:39:23 [clc4tts]
thanks matt
14:39:27 [s-mon]
Bert, exactly.
14:39:37 [matt]
No problem. Actually, if I could get a volunteer for tabulating the votes I would appreciate it.
14:39:55 [Mez]
does anyone know of usabiity testing that's integrated with recommendaitons in a standard? we're grappling with that in WSC
14:40:11 [Mez]
and have only found "process" oriented UT standards (this is how you should run a UT)
14:40:12 [RCutler]
I question that common goals and consistent priorities are possible or desirable in an organization like this.
14:40:32 [KevinLawver]
Why hasn't anyone just come out and said this is all Microsoft's fault? ;)
14:40:39 [karl]
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14:40:52 [glazou]
KevinLawver, because everyone knows about it !-) no need to repeat !
14:41:24 [mjs]
KevinLawver: more polite to say "browsers"
14:41:41 [glazou]
mjs: pfffff
14:41:41 [KevinLawver]
But, mjs, it's not accurate. Is it?
14:42:14 [steph]
Mez: i imagine you're thinking of heuristics, but that's a moving target, isn't it?
14:42:15 [Kai]
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14:42:19 [mjs]
KevinLawver: well, there are compat differences and standards compliance bugs in SafOperFox too, but they are much closer to standards and to each other than to IE
14:42:30 [mjs]
it's unclear how to define 100% support
14:42:31 [glazou]
Yves, on our dead bodies !-)
14:42:35 [raman]
Problem started withnetscape;-) in general the dominant browser has always been buggy and everyone has made the problem worse over time by being bug compatible
14:42:56 [mjs]
is there any non-trivial standard that's less than 20 years old and can claim to have 100% support from anything?
14:43:04 [mjs]
even C compilers have standards compliance bugs
14:43:13 [glazou]
mjs: electricity
14:43:18 [anne]
Yves, when they stop "sucking" and come with millions of testcases this might be feasible :)
14:43:24 [raman]
if gcc were like browsers, we would first ask all failing CS students to submit their programs -- and then build a compiler that compiled all the code from the failing student's ;-)
14:43:28 [Mez]
steph, we're trying to figure out both ways to "verify" that our recommendations will be sufficiently "usable", and also what to tell people about ensuring their implementation of our recommendations are suffiiciently "usable"
14:43:34 [MikeSmith]
It seems like there is maybe an expectation among some users/readers that all specs should somehow be understandable/readable by non-implementors or those who don't understand the implementation complexities ... an unrealistic expectation. The answer is maybe: You're not going to understand some specs unless you have certain prior knowledge that it may likely be you don't have unless you're an implementor or or have worked in some way a browser or other U
14:43:34 [MikeSmith]
A or developed complex web apps or whatever.
14:43:41 [mjs]
glazou: I don't think that meets the "non-trivial" standard
14:43:43 [Yves]
anne: well it more than millions of test cases that are needed ;)
14:43:48 [hsivonen]
btw, the model Molly just referred to keeps the test results secret
14:43:54 [mjs]
raman: gcc is different because what's delivered to end-users is binaries, not source
14:44:18 [mjs]
therefore breaking source compat for standards compliance can be livable, after all, users still have the old binaries
14:44:19 [jo]
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14:44:20 [shepazu]
"SafOperFox"... ugh... Mopari, maybe? ;)
14:44:20 [glazou]
mjs: ah ? have you ever been at a CEI standardization meeting about electricity ?
14:44:31 [raman]
gcc delivered as a binary ? wonder what rms would say ...
14:44:32 [citizenspace]
raman: and 10000x more people can write HTML than can write C. surely having a publishing technology that is accessible to more authors is a good thing?
14:44:44 [mjs]
raman: not of gcc itself, of programs it compiles
14:44:52 [mjs]
that's the difference between a complier and interpreter
14:44:52 [anne]
Yves, well, based on impl experience standards prolly have to be fixed
14:45:06 [mjs]
perhaps it's no coincidence that popular interpreted languages have just one dominant implementation and no spec
14:45:23 [glazou]
mjs: standardization in electricity is far more complex than ours, FYI
14:45:26 [shepazu]
CSS is not the whole of W3C
14:45:29 [KevinLawver]
The panel excluded, but a lot of trainers I've seen just don't know the subject. They spread FUD and misinformation instead of teaching the specs, benefits and then work-arounds.
14:45:36 [raman]
it is easier to teach authors simple rules to create correct content, as opposed to today's mess of you can do x, but not y if you've done x ...
14:45:42 [Yves]
anne: it depends on the issue, as always it's only on a case-by-case basis
14:46:03 [mjs]
glazou: I'm sure the standards are way more thorough, but the technical complexity is much less - 120v tri-phase could be described sufficiently on one page with some equations
14:46:09 [anne]
Yves, I suppose, but if the standards don't get implemented they're not really standards imo
14:46:24 [DanC_lap]
re making HTML more accesible to authors, i'm recruiting tutorial writers.. pls see
14:46:32 [Yves]
anne: so not even tcp should be considered as a std then :)
14:46:33 [Marcos]
less whingeing, more specn!
14:46:33 [youenn]
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14:46:43 [shepazu]
MikeSmith: I agree that specs aren't usually adequate for users... that's why we need tutorials
14:46:58 [PHB]
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14:47:01 [Marcos]
Shepazu, are you going to write the tutorials?
14:47:07 [moshe]
electrical code standards are thick, thick books. and there are code inspections. what's the lesson from this difference?
14:47:08 [fantasai]
tantek, there's a transcript somewhere, have you found that yet?
14:47:18 [tantek]
fantasai - no not yet
14:47:27 [SeanP]
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14:47:29 [PHB]
Waterfall models work wonderfully - For consultants!
14:47:36 [Steven]
14:47:37 [anne]
Yves, I'm not familiar enough with it I'm afraid
14:47:43 [glazou]
mjs: bwahahaha. there's so much more than that. for example, electrical control is relayed on electricial wires, that's also standardized there ; +interferences ; exchange between countries ; +fallback ; ...
14:47:46 [shepazu]
Marcos: I wrote SVG tutorials and built the SVG Wiki for years, so yes :)
14:47:54 [ArtB]
What we need is an entirely new Declarative Format for Applications and User Interfaces (DFAUI). Ooops, just remembered We've Been There, Done That :-)
14:47:58 [fantasai]
tantek: ^Steven
14:48:13 [dsinger]
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14:48:23 [PHB]
Watefall model means that at the end of the engagement the customer has the choice of paying for more time or only getting an architecture nobody else can implement for their money
14:48:28 [Marcos]
Shepazu will not officially write all tutorials for all working groups!
14:48:29 [mjs]
glazou: well, TCP/IP is also specced and implemented much more thoroughly than web standards, but I guess for anything sufficiently low-level, if you don't get it right the world stops
14:48:31 [Henny]
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14:48:36 [anne]
Yves, but I do think that at least standards applicable to the Web are not set in stone but evolve with usage and implementations
14:48:37 [Marcos]
14:48:37 [mjs]
the world doesn't stop if you have a float rendering bug though
14:48:53 [shepazu]
Marcos: but now that I'm with the W3C, I'm planning on moving that forward through the SVG Interest Group
14:49:01 [KevinLawver]
mjs, your world doesn't stop, but mine does.
14:49:07 [anne]
Yves, how this maps to the W3C Recommendation track is not exactly clear to me
14:49:09 [hsivonen]
I don't think specs can be precise for implementors and tutorials for authors at the same time
14:49:11 [dorchard]
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14:49:13 [John_Boyer]
But shouldn't the community be responsible for pointing out those ambiguities by actually sending the feedback to the public lists, as they are invited to do?
14:49:15 [s-mon]
that slide is unreadable.
14:49:15 [moshe]
YELLOW on WHITE? who can read this slide?
14:49:19 [Kai]
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14:49:19 [glazou]
mjs: but last time a bug occured in command control at PG&E, 9 western US states had a power outage...
14:49:22 [s-mon]
14:49:22 [mjs]
KevinLawver: it's a lot easier to patch around a browser bug than a power grid bug
14:49:28 [anne]
Yves, then again, all stuff I work on never reached that stage :)
14:49:29 [fantasai]
14:49:33 [hsivonen]
better to have a separate primer doc
14:49:39 [Marcos]
14:49:41 [Rich]
slide lacks contrast - accessibility problem :-)
14:49:46 [Marcos]
14:49:48 [jgraham_]
hsivonen, indeed. You can have specs that make good implementations or specs that are eay to read, not boh
14:49:48 [John_Boyer]
14:49:52 [shepazu]
14:49:59 [dsinger]
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14:50:02 [raman]
but if you patch over a bug, then the bug never gets fixed, and over time you get stuck with buggy content. equivalent to passing all failing students
14:50:15 [Yves]
anne: do you mean that when a std is reasonnably well implemented at time T, then a popular implementation at T+10 years starts implementing the same std badly proves that the spec was bad from day one? It may be then that another std is needed.
14:50:30 [Dennis]
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14:50:41 [mjs]
the web is not a university class
14:50:45 [mjs]
it is an infosystem
14:50:51 [anne]
Yves, if the T+10 impl significantly impacts deployed content, maybe
14:50:53 [mjs]
the goal is to get information from authors to users
14:50:54 [raman]
today, it's not even up to first grade;-)
14:51:03 [mjs]
not to give out marks
14:51:19 [luis]
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14:51:20 [KevinLawver]
Pointing at Dan Connolly, only because he asked for it.
14:51:24 [Yves]
anne: in that case another std defined is ok, saying that old spec was bad is not right as it was proven ok before
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14:51:28 [Marcos]
14:51:36 [moshe]
mjs, impossible to improve process without metrics
14:51:39 [kaz]
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14:51:53 [anne]
Yves, how you solve that problem politically is not really of interest to me
14:52:07 [timbl_]
Molly asks for the TAG (or someone) to make a top-down effort to make more consistency between specs ... but does that mesh with allowing WGs to be more autonomous. ... hmmm . ther is no free coorination. CGs are suppoosed to work in a less centralized way, the TAG watches out for cracks.
14:52:22 [plh]
oh oh, we lost the captioner
14:52:27 [MikeSmith]
amen to what MSM said about if "non-dominant browsers decide NOT to be bug-compatible ... users complain" -- that's the market reality that drives browser vendors ... if a user can get to broken/non-conforming site in browser A but not in browser B, then as far as the user is concerned, browser B is broken and he/she will switch to using browser A instead (at least to get to that site)
14:52:32 [tH]
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14:52:57 [Yves]
anne: if the specs were clearer from day one, then those issues would not even be on the table, so there is a big QA effort to do on specs first
14:53:00 [caribou]
which reality? user reality? market reality?
14:53:03 [jose-lap]
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14:53:09 [clc4tts]
the captioning seems to have stopped
14:53:24 [glazou]
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14:53:32 [mjs]
moshe: agreed, but the metric must be meaningful
14:53:33 [IanJ]
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14:53:40 [anne]
Yves, specs being correct doesn't mean they get implemented correctly
14:53:49 [beowulf]
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14:53:57 [Yves]
specs being clearer helps then being implemented correctly
14:54:04 [anne]
it also depends on how you define correct
14:54:07 [s-mon]
it goes a long way.
14:54:13 [anne]
some people think error handling doesn't need to be part of a spec for instance
14:54:14 [ed]
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14:54:15 [rigo]
anne: then, the technology is dead and will go back fragmentation = pre-standard
14:54:21 [hsivonen]
specs that aren't compatible with market realities fail
14:54:31 [kenny]
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14:54:31 [DanC_lap]
Bert, did you hear that story about tables and that professor?
14:54:34 [anne]
rigo, I'm not saying we shouldn't have standards, I think
14:54:35 [karl]
14:54:36 [citizenspace]
specs that have too high a barrier to implementation fail
14:54:41 [DanC_lap]
"teach your children well" comes to mind, Noah.
14:54:48 [s-mon]
he he.
14:54:54 [mjs]
is tables vs. css interesting technically as anything but a shibboleth?
14:54:54 [raman]
espiranto anyone;-)
14:55:00 [Marcos]
technology are tools?
14:55:16 [ivan]
The university course situation is really bad overall...
14:55:30 [ivan]
maybe W3C should have a separate arm concentrating on Un curriculae?
14:55:53 [glazou]
MikeSmith: patiently ?-)
14:56:03 [rigo]
anne: but after all you generate remarks like the one from hsivonen, where the market does not come together to get consensus on a solution, but where some magicien runs after some cats to write down where the cats currently are .. ;)
14:56:05 [KevinLawver]
There is also a HUGE difference between: the standard, the implementations, and then the best practices. I think the conversation gets confused when we don't call the three out.
14:56:06 [fantasai]
ivan: it would have to be done in conjunction with the community,
14:56:08 [DanC_lap]
yes, connecting W3C to curriculum development is a goal of mine
14:56:13 [kenny]
Is there any way that the w3c specs could be made easier to read and synthesise for developers and designers? Would listing the books describing the respective spec make a difference?
14:56:35 [anne]
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14:56:52 [ivan]
fantasai: of course. But building curriculae requires a special knowledge and talent, not necessarily present in the WG-s
14:57:10 [karl]
tantek: that would be interesting to see for html 5, I think it is one of the biggest spec ever being written
14:57:13 [DanC_lap]
"real world" is an attack phrase; let's find another way to talk
14:57:19 [anne]
rigo, the market is coming together no?
14:57:29 [s-mon]
i can't stand that term.
14:57:29 [MikeSmith]
AaronGustafson - molly got a mike on her left as well
14:57:30 [fantasai]
ivan: I'm not suggesting the WGs do it. :) That wouldn't work, clearly.
14:57:38 [DanC_lap]
I'd like people to talk about "my experience" rather than "the real world"
14:57:42 [tantek]
DanC_lap: s/real world/URLs to real world examples on the public Web
14:57:44 [s-mon]
who lives n the "real world".
14:57:44 [anne]
rigo, I think I'm missing your point
14:57:51 [Hixie]
i don't think molly's answer answered the question
14:57:57 [hsivonen]
you can't deploy in the real world if browser competition has not resulted in something to deploy on
14:58:28 [rigo]
anne: yes it is coming together, but we are talking about the gap (and time-lag) between market and specification and how to fill that gap
14:58:31 [karl]
"My real world is not yours"
14:58:50 [anne]
rigo, not wait for Recommendation level with implementing
14:58:53 [anne]
we're already doing that
14:59:00 [shepazu]
my real world includes Joost and intranets and set-top boxes
14:59:02 [KevinLawver]
The e-mail problem is a really good case of bad implementations.
14:59:04 [Stuart]
mjs mentions shibboleth.... interesting crack in the floor at Tate Modern, London:
14:59:15 [rigo]
anne: and whether the market takes up some things designed by committee and whether the committee is taking up something done in the market and I say it's both :)
15:00:00 [raman]
See the following from Lawrence Lessig: Lawrence Lessig: I have been doing this for about two years--more than
15:00:00 [raman]
100 of these gigs. This is about the last one. One more and it's over
15:00:00 [raman]
for me. So I figured I wanted to write a song to end it. But then I
15:00:00 [raman]
realized I don't sing and I can't write music. But I came up with the
15:00:03 [raman]
refrain, at least, right? This captures the point. If you understand
15:00:06 [raman]
this refrain, you're gonna' understand everything I want to say to you
15:00:10 [raman]
today. It has four parts:
15:00:13 [raman]
15:00:16 [MikeSmith]
kenny - If a spec is intended to be a precise and unambiguous functional specification for implementors, it probably can't also be made easier to read for designers.
15:00:16 [raman]
* Creativity and innovation always builds on the past.
15:00:20 [raman]
* The past always tries to control the creativity that builds upon it.
15:00:20 [raman]
* Free societies enable the future by limiting this power of the past.
15:00:23 [raman]
* Ours is less and less a free society.
15:00:26 [raman]
15:00:29 [DanC_lap]
(I guess a certain amount of venting frustration about history is in order, but I hope we get past it soon, Hakon.)
15:00:33 [Kangchan]
Ivan : W3C can not the building curriculae, but can propose the well organized curriculae (just link the existing curriculae pages) for reffering as outreach activitirs of W3C
15:00:41 [DanC_lap]
yes, ACID2 rocks
15:00:45 [hsivonen]
shepazu: Joost is single client. hence, not client interop standardization issues
15:00:48 [steph]
MikeSmith: I don't think the idea is one all encompassing document :)
15:00:49 [raman]
Lessig's articulation is the best expression I've heard of my unease over bending over backwards to support broken legacy bugs.
15:01:16 [Dennis]
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15:01:21 [raman]
The web is *much* bigger than the browser.
15:01:22 [dom]
oh, I never thought of applying lessig's refrain to our situation with standards, nice, raman
15:01:23 [dglazkov]
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15:01:30 [shepazu]
hsivonen: it uses Web protocols, Web formats, and it's free and open to use...
15:01:39 [ivan]
Kangchan: yes. But that would require specialized groups that know how to build curriculae...
15:01:42 [Kai]
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15:01:43 [kenny]
mike: i agree. However, I have always found books much easier to read than specs. if the spec pages were to have a list of books describing the spec, won't it make it easier for everyone?
15:01:43 [klaus__]
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15:02:00 [MikeSmith]
steph - actually, I seems for some readers that is the expectation; they want to read the core specs and understand them, and if they can't, they feel "dumb" ... at least that is something that I thought one of the panelists was saying
15:02:19 [hsivonen]
karl: do they not needs browsers to deploy web content in bangladesh and singapore?
15:02:22 [glazou]
15:02:28 [raman]
The web was built on http, URIs and HTML that Web is *much* bigger ...
15:02:41 [KevinLawver]
People don't upgrade, which only exaggerates the problem of browsers being slow to implement.
15:02:47 [anne]
huh, no innovation?
15:02:51 [gavin_]
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15:02:51 [Marcos]
yes. lets freeze innovation because companies are not agile!
15:02:55 [mjs]
we can't tolerate innovation?
15:03:00 [kenny]
15:03:03 [steph]
MikeSmith: i think it's because at the moment it's not easy to understand which document is target at whom, so when you're a designer coming to the site to know ... how they are supposed to know more :)
15:03:04 [rigo]
anne: this is the past trying to control you :)
15:03:06 [Marcos]
15:03:06 [mjs]
is this the World Wide Telegraph Consortium?
15:03:20 [kenny]
15:03:22 [raman]
world-wide-waiting consortium
15:03:39 [moshe]
don't shoot the messenger
15:03:40 [plh]
[the captioner lost internet connection, they're trying to set up a new captioner]
15:03:48 [DanC_lap]
I'm glad Anne brings the large enterprise perspective; it's real. But yes, it's only one part of the conversation.
15:03:50 [anne]
maybe Boeing can use curl, that's quite consistent I believe
15:03:59 [DanC_lap]
s/Anne/Ann B/
15:04:00 [KevinLawver]
I hate to say it, but if people implemented their documents the right way the first time, they wouldn't need to mandate an old browser.
15:04:04 [moshe]
the message is: legacy content of 1 zillion web pages can't be re-written every tuesday
15:04:04 [MikeSmith]
kenny - the books are written after the spec, based on the spec ... proper place to list such books is not in the spec itself but at corresponding W3C site for the related working group or whatever
15:04:42 [glazou]
Marcos, mjs: have you any idea what means deploying a next-gen browser into a 140,000 employees company world-wide ?
15:04:45 [plh]
me [the captioners aren't based at the same place]
15:05:06 [mjs]
glazou: do you think an end to innovation would make upgrades less risky?
15:05:06 [Zakim]
+ +1.309.329.aabb
15:05:08 [Zakim]
15:05:14 [rigo]
anne: big corps are part of the market and the picture, so how could we ignore them?
15:05:18 [Bert]
+1 to KevinLawver
15:05:20 [mjs]
if there wasn't any innovation, I guess there wouldn't need to be upgrades at all
15:05:26 [rigo]
...and their needs
15:05:34 [Roland_]
Tantek: not exactly what you asked for, but nonetheless interesting paper : An Empirical Study of Open Standards --
15:05:44 [glazou]
mjs: I'm just saying software developers, software vendors and users do not live in the same time space
15:05:45 [AaronGustafson]
thank you all very much
15:05:53 [Marcos]
glazou, there are billions of people in the world.
15:05:57 [MikeSmith]
AaronGustafson - thank you all. Great panel
15:06:01 [hsivonen]
the conclusion I draw from the enterprise comment is that new specs must not break compat
15:06:04 [AaronGustafson]
thanks MikeSmith
15:06:11 [steph]
thanks everyone
15:06:11 [AxelPolleres]
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15:06:14 [Marcos]
Companies that can't keep up can't stop innovation!
15:06:19 [anne]
hsivonen, that works for me :)
15:06:33 [mauro]
15:06:40 [moshe]
marcos, the problems of big companies concenrate and make visible the problems of small companies
15:06:41 [Ralph]
[break -- 24 mins]
15:06:42 [Zakim]
15:06:43 [mauro]
break until 10:30AM
15:06:51 [glazou]
amazing, truely
15:07:09 [Marcos]
tell it to the facebook people
15:07:21 [beowulf]
well that was interesting
15:07:34 [csma]
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15:09:12 [karl]
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15:25:48 [Zakim]
+ +1.847.925.aacc
15:27:08 [Philip]
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15:27:54 [Zakim]
+Terry_Morris (was +1.847.925.aacc)
15:28:50 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:28:50 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:28:52 [Zakim]
15:30:59 [Marcos]
I wonder why Steven is not on the HTML5 VS XHTML2 panel? Or why none of the (X)HTML Editors are not on the panel?????
15:31:25 [pv]
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15:31:49 [mjs]
marie: I thought it was supposed to be AND, not VS
15:32:03 [karl]
Marcos: there is no editors of HTML 5 as well
15:32:04 [Marcos]
um, yeah right :P
15:32:11 [Marcos]
Can we add a seat for Hixie and Steven up there?
15:32:42 [amy]
can anyone point out John Schneider and Matt Womer to each other?
15:33:23 [karl]
15:33:23 [karl]
Jonny Axelsson, Opera Software
15:33:23 [karl]
Mark Birbeck,
15:33:23 [karl]
Micah Dubinko, Invited Expert
15:33:23 [karl]
Beth Epperson, Websense
15:33:24 [karl]
Masayasu Ishikawa, W3C
15:33:26 [karl]
Shane McCarron, Applied Testing and Technology
15:33:28 [karl]
Ann Navarro, WebGeek, Inc.
15:33:30 [karl]
Steven Pemberton, CWI (HTML Working Group Chair)
15:33:42 [tH]
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15:34:03 [Marcos]
Well, can any of those people please be on the panel?
15:34:17 [herve]
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15:34:25 [Hixie]
Marcos: i'm happy to let henri and anne do their thing, i don't think there's really anything that needs to be said that they won't say
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15:35:35 [Marcos]
I still think Steven should be up there :)
15:36:27 [mjs]
well this is gonna be a fun panel
15:36:27 [Dennis]
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15:36:28 [Zakim]
+ +1.972.296.aadd
15:36:40 [j1]
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15:36:44 [DanC_lap]
"since the web exploded in the big bang" ;-) -- Al G
15:36:56 [Marcos]
It be more fun with Steven :)
15:37:13 [DanC_lap]
yeah, that screen is blurry
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15:37:37 [glazou]
ivan, rotfl
15:37:40 [Martin]
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15:37:50 [brutzman]
might the slides be linked on the agenda page?
15:37:52 [Zakim]
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15:38:00 [Zakim]
- +1.309.329.aabb
15:38:17 [Zakim]
+ +1.309.329.aabb
15:38:46 [glazou]
karl, since you're on last row, can you ask the people behind you to fix the blurry image on left screen ?
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15:39:19 [Kai_]
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15:39:19 [raman]
ssh ou
15:39:34 [MikeSmith]
glazou - will ask
15:39:41 [MSM]
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15:39:46 [glazou]
MikeSmith: thx
15:39:52 [Steven]
What I actually said was that Tantek had agreed to do it. It was his action item
15:40:02 [najib]
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15:40:20 [tantek]
Steve - which action item was that?
15:40:21 [clc4tts]
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15:40:22 [anne]
those minutes:
15:40:32 [glazou]
who's the speaker ?
15:40:44 [anne]
Richard S. from IBM
15:40:44 [dbaron]
Richard Schwertfeger (sp?)
15:40:44 [John_Boyer]
Richard Schwerdtfeger
15:40:44 [aaronlev]
glazou: Rich Schwerdtfeger
15:41:08 [raman]
call him sword weielder
15:41:24 [kenny]
15:41:25 [kenny]
15:41:35 [DanC_lap]
glad to hear Rich feels his time collaborating with W3C was well spent!
15:42:00 [kenny]
appologies for the previous two messages. it was a unsuccessful attempt at clearing the screen.
15:42:10 [DanC_lap]
RS: I'd like to see the two groups merge.
15:42:16 [Hixie]
html5 is not looking to tomorrow?
15:42:19 [anne]
15:42:33 [Marcos]
HTML5 should stop living in the past :P
15:43:13 [John_Boyer]
Good to innovate on html, but never understood why not contribute to the W3C working group?
15:43:29 [mjs]
the strongest objections I've heard to HTML5 are to remove the forward-looking parts like <canvas> and <video>
15:43:39 [anne]
John_Boyer, because that proposal was initially denied
15:43:48 [anne]
John_Boyer, during that workshop, it was voted down
15:43:51 [anne]
we're doing it now though
15:43:57 [Marcos]
and I'm sure the offline stuff will probably get objections too
15:43:58 [mjs]
or the parsing spec which ends the death spiral of bug compatibility reverse engineering
15:44:00 [tlr]
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15:44:02 [DanC_lap]
I think the HTML 5 spec does reasonably well re consuming content, but I'll say again I'm recuriting tutorial writers, to help authors
15:44:07 [John_Boyer]
Denied by whom?
15:44:07 [ChrisL]
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15:44:09 [glazou]
John_Boyer: you mean the xhtml2 wg ?
15:44:19 [John_Boyer]
yes, which was the html wg
15:44:37 [Rich]
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15:44:38 [karl]
Creating "HTML 5 for authors" will make your life healthier. Please join
15:44:38 [kenny]
is html going to be phased out eventually in favour of xhtml?
15:44:43 [glazou]
do you have any idea how many times we said that the successor to html 4 has to be built upon html 4 itself ?
15:44:54 [MikeSmith]
bravo hsivonen
15:45:01 [mjs]
I already know I agree with Henri :-)
15:45:11 [anne]
that's my excuse too :)
15:45:23 [Marcos]
me three :)
15:45:46 [MikeSmith]
Al: "WAP1 was a scandalous failure"
15:45:50 [raman]
a good reflection of why there has been such poor communication across the different camps in this debate. Each person believes he is right and knows the answer alas
15:45:52 [glazou]
John_Boyer: the problem was not on the contributors' side, but on the WG side
15:46:02 [DanC_lap]
I don't think "html 5 for authors" needs to be a book-length tome; maybe it's planethtml5, an edited journal of authoring techinques. (a la a list apart)
15:46:21 [clc4tts]
the captioning is really bad
15:46:22 [glazou]
raman: belief ? right ? can you please tell me where is xhtml 2 on the web ATM ?
15:46:22 [cwiecha]
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15:46:27 [anne]
maybe it's all of that
15:46:31 [John_Boyer]
If one is *within* the working group, then one gets a vote on how it proceeds, so it's only a problem within the WG if you have a priori decided not to join it.
15:46:45 [Rich]
yes. merge the groups and get everyone on the same page. Don't ignore today's browsers, move us forward
15:46:57 [molly]
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15:47:06 [Steven]
Ebay UK Mobile is in XHTML2
15:47:15 [Steven]
I am told
15:47:19 [Hixie]
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15:47:34 [mjs]
Rich: merging groups that disagree is a follow-on to getting on the same page, not a prerequisite for it
15:47:38 [karl]
DanC_lap: an aggregation of content produced by people would be a neat idea
15:47:44 [janet]
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15:47:51 [ChrisL]
steven - authored in or served as?
15:47:59 [Steven]
authored in
15:48:11 [Dennis]
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15:48:17 [glazou]
15:48:19 [Steven]
then transformed to whatever the device accepts
15:48:19 [Rich]
you won't get them to agree if they are in separate groups and allowed ot not collaborate
15:48:29 [shepazu]
"The Web that goes to people"?
15:48:34 [Hixie]
wait, what was the question?
15:48:36 [tantek]
what does "more orthodoxy" mean here?
15:48:48 [DanC_lap]
(I missed the question; I miss the traditional W3C scribe.)
15:49:00 [glazou]
DanC_lap, agreed
15:49:01 [dsinger]
ortho - straight, doxy - opinion
15:49:11 [raman]
there we go with "real world" again. whose real world?
15:49:12 [John_Boyer]
glazou, nice blog. Join the group, contribute solutions.
15:49:17 [jo]
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15:49:22 [DanC_lap]
glazou is a founding member
15:49:32 [glazou]
John_Boyer: that's a joke I presume ?
15:49:39 [KevinLawver]
karl, where would the money come from then?
15:49:44 [MikeSmith]
karl - Let's replace it with "Solve Real Problems"
15:49:50 [s-mon]
hmm, real world again.
15:49:53 [molly]
karl: Is it the nomenclature?
15:50:04 [glazou]
15:50:07 [jose_ma]
sometimes "real world" sounds like "average user" ;)
15:50:09 [DanC_lap]
glazou hasn't been very loud in the public-html coctail party, bu the's been around
15:50:16 [shepazu]
s-mon, stop breaking the web
15:50:17 [MikeSmith]
Keep it Real
15:50:22 [karl]
MikeSmith: I will solve the real world trouble you are just at my left side. If you hear screaming, I just punched MikeSmith
15:50:59 [molly]
I ask for good reasons - if that way of articulating the issue doesn't express well, that's helpful to know for future conversations
15:51:35 [karl]
molly: it is just that real world has no real shared meaning across Web people
15:51:43 [DanC_lap]
"real problems" ... is that still in the TOC? reminds me of "real world", an attack phrase as I noted above
15:52:06 [molly]
what would be better terminology? Suggestions welcome!
15:52:08 [shepazu]
"don't do error handling at all"?
15:52:11 [KevinLawver]
It's the Ivory Tower vs The Plebes! Let them eat markup!
15:52:13 [Hixie]
yeah tim! you didn't define error handling! :-)
15:52:30 [DanC_lap]
hmm... yes, it's still in the TOC.
15:52:33 [Bert]
The audience doesn't ask questions, because they are busy with the real world :-)
15:52:41 [shepazu]
15:52:47 [molly]
15:52:48 [mjs]
where "the real world" means IRC?
15:52:59 [danz]
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15:53:01 [mjs]
I dunno if I can agree with that definition
15:53:06 [Markus]
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15:53:07 [shepazu]
15:53:09 [molly]
how about "practitioners" ?
15:53:09 [kenny]
would it help the conformance to w3c standards if browsers were less fault tolerant with html and css? Would that not force the authors to comply?
15:53:10 [glazou]
the audience has no questions but the speakers are slackers ;-)
15:53:22 [aurelien_levy]
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15:53:29 [MikeSmith]
more questioners up at the microphones would be nice
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15:53:34 [tantek]
kenny, no, it would simply raise barriers to authoring = fewer authors, less content
15:53:37 [Bert]
"The real world" is "my world" for every instance of "my" in this crowd.
15:53:41 [mjs]
css has fault tolerance as a conformance requirement
15:54:11 [KevinLawver]
I expected more boxing gloves for this panel.
15:54:13 [shepazu]
SVG has well-defined error handling (though not perfect... still need to fill in the cracks)
15:54:24 [Hixie]
IanJ: for parsing, for instance, the first implementation of the error handling is html5lib, which is not a browser tool
15:54:40 [shepazu]
CSS has error-handling (though not implemented universally)
15:54:45 [molly]
I agree with Tantek on that. There has to be a way to address Mom's desire to post something to her site versus company XYZ's need to have highly secure, manageable documents
15:55:06 [mjs]
validation should be on the authoring end, not the content consumption end
15:55:14 [KevinLawver]
Molly, that's why we need better authoring tool, and have things like HTML tidy.
15:55:18 [tantek]
the "fragile content" attitude has failed on the Web, why are people still pursuing it seriously?
15:55:23 [srv4661]
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15:55:36 [molly]
Yes Kevin, but as every man knows
15:55:41 [molly]
one must be the master of one's tool.
15:55:57 [IanJ]
I haven't looked closely at the error-handling bits in html 5.
15:56:23 [mjs]
HTML5 has split document and UA conformance
15:56:26 [IanJ]
Just wondering (in my ignorance) how it is going describing error handling in a way that works across big spectrum of apps.
15:56:27 [shepazu]
tantek: sorry, can you explain the "fragile content" attitude?
15:56:30 [karl]
molly: about terminology. "real world" is a way to ostracize people then it creates a community. More than just talking about "issue to solve".
15:56:36 [tantek]
shepazu: XML
15:56:38 [KevinLawver]
Molly, if that's true, then your mom needs to master the tol...
15:56:41 [KevinLawver]
tool, even.
15:57:04 [molly]
Karl, well, for the misuse of terminology I apologize, but I do think the points remain clear
15:57:21 [molly]
and I have tens of thousands of people to point to as examples worldwide
15:57:29 [Hixie]
ht: again just looking at the parsing/syntax section, is the language, and
15:57:29 [IanJ]
Does the error-handling go beyond parsing?
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15:57:31 [shepazu]
tantek: ah, ok... a little spinny, but point taken
15:57:39 [Hixie]
ht: the error handling algorithm
15:57:51 [Hixie]
IanJ: yeah
15:57:53 [tantek]
fragile = error->stop processing
15:57:53 [IanJ]
15:58:04 [Hixie]
IanJ: though it's more obvious in the parsing section
15:58:19 [IanJ]
thanks Hixie
15:58:37 [aurelien_levy]
15:58:51 [raman]
HST's question is not being answered.
15:58:52 [shepazu]
tantek: yes, that restriction could be loosened up in a defined way
15:58:54 [IanJ]
parsing seems like a good area for generic error handling.
15:58:55 [ChrisL]
as opposed to fragile = silent error recovery and thus error accumulation until one small change breaks rendering mysteriously, type of fragiility
15:58:58 [IanJ]
my guess is rendering is not as much.
15:59:40 [karl]
15:59:41 [tantek]
ChrisL - one of those has succeeded on the Web, the other has failed.
15:59:44 [Hixie]
IanJ: e.g. search for "invalid value default". there's also cases where the error handling is automaticly implied by the way the algorithms work
16:00:00 [Hixie]
IanJ: e.g. "take the first foo element" handles the error of what if there are two foo elements
16:00:01 [MikeSmith]
couldn't hear the organization who the current questioner is from ...
16:00:13 [Hixie]
IanJ: (as opposed to "take the foo element", which is ambiguous)
16:00:19 [dsinger]
glenn adams, representing samsung (though his own company is xsfi)
16:00:21 [mjs]
IanJ: it's layered - there's a way to parse even erroneous token streams into a DOM, and a way to render even erroneous DOMs
16:00:25 [karl]
interesting the discussion has became meta
16:00:29 [ChrisL]
Tantek - I would argue which one failed. you mean you never edited a page and got an unexpected result that seemed unrelated to what you just changed?
16:00:32 [karl]
about error handling
16:00:47 [karl]
it is almost a general discussion about all W3C technologies
16:00:55 [karl]
16:01:06 [MikeSmith]
Glenn Adams from Samsung?
16:01:24 [mjs]
MSM: there are ~30 billion HTML documents targeted for display to end users on the public web
16:01:25 [dbaron]
I think the problem was that error handling wasn't defined, not whether or not the error handling was liberal.
16:01:26 [tantek]
ChrisL - any sufficiently complex system will produce unexpected results.
16:01:39 [mjs]
MSM: I think XML is quite a few orders of magnitude off from that
16:01:42 [dom]
+1 to dbaron
16:02:04 [raman]
who will specify the errors in the implementation of the error handling?
16:02:05 [MSM]
mjs, yes -- targeted for one specific use -- and not easily reusable, precisely because people have abused Postel's Law
16:02:41 [mjs]
MSM: "people consuming documents and applications" seems like a pretty broad use to me
16:02:44 [tantek]
it's the difference between the CSS parsing methodology towards error handling vs. the XML parsing methodology towards error handling.
16:03:00 [mjs]
as far as I'm concerned it is *the* use, everything else is implementation details for that
16:03:06 [tantek]
MUST recover vs. MUST fail.
16:03:24 [tantek]
recovery = adoption. failure = abandonment.
16:03:27 [PHB]
If you didn't want xml to resync automatically, why have te start tag repeated in the end tag?
16:03:51 [PHB]
<p> stuff </p> has no point unless you want </p> to allow for resync
16:03:54 [MSM]
[Repeating an off-the-log comment: responding to a remark of Tantek's. I think you get a more pervasive form of fragility from divergent and inconsistent approaches to error recovery -- I note that in the XML community, it has never been necessary to charter a WG to run after the implementations to find out how they do error recovery, so that authors can figure out which errors they must fix and which they can safely leave4 in place.]
16:04:15 [DanC_lap]
re postels law, we just need somebody to take the "be conservative about what you produce" part of the HTML 5 spec and tune it to the authoring audience
16:04:27 [raman]
real world again.
16:04:37 [molly]
"real world" content
16:04:39 [DanC_lap]
and some help from some popular authoring tools like dreamweaver
16:05:02 [raman]
haven't seen imaginary world content ... what does it look like? if you know, then it cant be imaginary;-)
16:05:06 [Liam]
phb - it turns out that </> makes it very ahrd for humans to fix faulty documents
16:05:07 [ChrisL]
phb - you are correct that having the name in the end tag allows better error pinpointing. The aim was to make it easier to fix by the author, not by auto-guessing in the browser
16:05:21 [karl]
DanC_lap: agreed. An authoring document can/should be stricter than the parsing section
16:05:27 [raman]
complex content must have an imaginary part, otherwise it wouldn't be complex, it would be real;-)
16:05:33 [shepazu]
raman: it's the Platonic Ideal of Content
16:05:38 [tantek]
MSM, optimizing for chartering or not a WG, or for adoption of the technology by maximum # of authors? I choose the latter.
16:05:43 [Marcos]
16:05:48 [DanC_lap]
no, the technical content should be the same... or the same negotiation, karl. but the document audiences are different
16:06:02 [MikeSmith]
Melinda Grant from HP
16:06:27 [IanJ]
MG: "Will browsers of the future support both html5 and xhtml2?"
16:06:28 [molly]
with a real world question
16:06:31 [molly]
16:06:33 [Bert]
(Not sure </> makes it hard to fix errors, but </foo> makes it hard to avoid errors.)
16:06:35 [IanJ]
MG: "If not, what are the implications?"
16:06:49 [MSM]
PHB, there was a longish discussion of whether to allow empty end-tags, during the design of XML 1.0. The browser vendors eventually got on their knees and begged the WG to specify draconian error handling, because (they argued) the alternative was the same kind of race to the bottom that was visible in HTML.
16:07:16 [karl]
DanC_lap: ;) not sure about that. I can say hey author you should write <strong class="strict">boo</strong>, and say to browsers You have to be ready to understand clumsy people who write <strong class=strict>boo</strong>
16:07:21 [Marcos]
16:07:22 [MSM]
Tantek, I have never regarded popularity as the true test of truth, beauty, or technical utility. YMMV.
16:07:31 [KevinLawver]
Melinda Grant is my hero.
16:07:42 [tantek]
MSM - evolution would disagree with you.
16:07:55 [tantek]
as would the market
16:08:19 [tantek]
also, popularity = accessibility to more authors.
16:08:28 [MSM]
Tantek, and this means what? Evolution is hardly guaranteed to produce truth, beauty, technical quality, or progress.
16:08:42 [tantek]
evolution has very much produced progress
16:08:46 [jallan]
16:08:47 [Lachy_]
many of the good ideas in XHTML2 have been introduced in HTML5 already
16:08:51 [tantek]
and produces quality, if incrementally, through iteration
16:09:03 [Lachy_]
the rest can be mostly ignored, IMHO
16:09:13 [DanC_lap]
yes, karl, that's what I'm saying
16:09:16 [Hixie]
Rich: i assure you that all innovations developed by the xhtml2wg as well as other wgs (e.g. xforms) are closely studied by the html5 contributors and we've taken many ideas already (e.g. <section>)
16:09:16 [mjs]
xml events don't reduce JavaScript in the markup afaict
16:09:22 [karl]
tantek: do you think that britney spears is singing beautiful songs. (sorry for the fans of Britney, just taking her as an example)
16:09:40 [ed]
mjs: that's what I thought too...didn't get that statement
16:09:47 [raman]
glad I dont have to listen to music that is "evolved" and especially not as it is "evolving"
16:09:51 [karl]
ChrisL, there is a real transcript
16:09:51 [DanC_lap]
16:10:04 [DanC_lap]
(i.e. hixie is using direct address, not attribution)
16:10:11 [ChrisL]
I was just hoping the question being asked would be noted
16:10:22 [karl]
DanC_lap: then we agreed, but expressed it in different ways ;)
16:10:22 [tantek]
karl, marketing != evolution
16:10:27 [DanC_lap]
(I hate the fact that IRC defaults to : for direct address, after the chicago manual of style and such set the standard)
16:10:33 [MSM]
Tantek, I think you are confusing "quality" with "success in reproduction". A common fallacy in the nineteenth century among social Darwinists, but I had thought it was exinct.
16:10:44 [tantek]
raman, most music is evolved / built-upon previous music
16:10:56 [tantek]
as is most art
16:11:00 [tantek]
c.f. Picasso
16:11:13 [anne]
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16:11:15 [mjs]
art or music that wasn't in some way derivative would just be confusing
16:11:42 [DanC_lap]
if you want to see music built upon previous music, I think I'm going to play guitar and ask people to sing along at an HTML WG unconference break-out
16:12:01 [karl]
eeek discussing philosophy on IRC is like discussing politics drunk in a bar
16:12:03 [MSM]
Is spam really the highest quality of email? It seems to be what email has evolved to, and it's way more common that real email.
16:12:09 [tantek]
DanC - really sorry I would miss that ;)
16:12:29 [karl]
+1 to glazou!!!!
16:12:31 [DanC_lap]
lessig said "I can't sing..." and then told a powerful story; well, I can play guitar, and I've got some excellent singers coming along
16:12:37 [tantek]
MSM email is obsolete ;)
16:12:43 [karl]
editor vendors and CMS vendors on the HTML WG
16:12:51 [KevinLawver]
+10 to glazou
16:13:00 [John_Boyer]
+100 to need for editing tools need
16:13:01 [mjs]
Apple is an editor vendor
16:13:05 [DanC_lap]
yes, CMS folks... I need head/@profile support in CMS tools
16:13:21 [mjs]
Mail, Dashcode, iWeb, Aperture, Safari itself...
16:13:27 [glazou]
mjs: so have your editing solution implement html 5 when safari is ready for html 5 too
16:13:29 [glazou]
16:13:39 [DanC_lap]
ah... that reminds me, mjs... the apple mailer doesn't support hyperlink authoring
16:13:56 [MSM]
ah. It would seem then that evolution and popularity are the test of quality sometimes, but not all the time? Is it off base to suggest they are the test of quality when you like their results, but not when you don't?
16:14:14 [DanC_lap]
what is the test of quality, MSM?
16:14:30 [mjs]
DanC_lap: Leopard version does
16:14:37 [DanC_lap]
gold star, mjs
16:14:39 [mjs]
DanC_lap: I don't know about Tiger, haven't run it in a while
16:14:44 [MSM]
I'll borrow Tantek's approach, and say that for some authors, invalid HTML that makes you care about browsers' error recovery strategies is simply obsolete. You don't have to care about it any more. Freedom is just a decision you have to make.
16:14:51 [mjs]
Edit > Link > Add...
16:14:57 [DanC_lap]
tantek, I hope we get to jam sometime. bummer indeed that you're not here this time.
16:15:08 [Lachy_]
the things Stephen is talking about can be done in HTML5, XHTML2 isn't needed for that stuff
16:15:30 [tantek]
MSM, you actually don't. Author valid POSH and browsers will handle it just fine.
16:15:38 [karl]
mjs: why people from iWeb are not participating to the WG
16:15:44 [Marcos]
why author in xhtml2 to serve as html? why not just use html for the whole process?
16:15:48 [cblouch]
Part of evolution is natural selection where some new branches turn out to be bad and die
16:15:55 [Hixie]
the first hit for "ebay xhtml2" on google is an e-mail i wrote. sheesh. -_-
16:15:57 [glazou]
cblouch: exactly
16:16:06 [mjs]
karl: too busy typing?
16:16:08 [raman]
hear hear!
16:16:21 [MikeSmith]
Marcos - perhaps because it attempts to provide another level of abstraction
16:16:28 [mjs]
karl: I will note that I specifically and the Safari team in general talks a lot to other teams at Apple that do web-technology-relevant things
16:16:29 [raman]
hear hear to what Steven said I meant
16:16:32 [John_Boyer]
Unfortunately, the above comment from Marcos is the same as saying that the things Steven is talking about can be done in machine language, so no need for a higher level language.
16:16:34 [MSM]
Tantek, one question that then arises is "Why have a WG worrying about an obsolete problem that no one actually needs to care about?"
16:16:34 [MikeSmith]
... the last part of what Steven mentioned
16:16:39 [shepazu]
16:16:41 [molly]
my question is why isn't he on this panel???
16:16:43 [karl]
mjs: having *real world* authoring tools developers on the group would be more than welcome
16:16:56 [John_Boyer]
+1 molly
16:16:56 [karl]
ooops I did it again
16:17:07 [tantek]
I actually agree with Steven's point. It is worth encouraging various different approaches, and testing them against the market.
16:17:08 [s-mon]
oh karl.
16:17:13 [aaronlev]
someone representing xhtml2 should be on the panel
16:17:14 [s-mon]
16:17:19 [shepazu]
well stated, Steven
16:17:19 [karl]
16:17:27 [Marcos]
John_Boyer, MikeSmith, I don't disagree, I'm just asking.
16:17:30 [s-mon]
+1 Steven.
16:17:35 [raman]
good question: why wasnt Steven on the panel? it's a symptom of the larger problem within the W3C. we've spent six years standing on the "xml" leg; now, we're standing on the "html" leg, and the xml leg is not fashionable any more ...
16:17:36 [molly]
Karl, I'm going to hit you later. I promise.
16:17:46 [glazou]
karl: is that for me ?-)
16:17:57 [molly]
raman: I asked Steven and he said he had no idea why he wasn't on the panel
16:17:59 [tantek]
MSM, perhaps ask the WG - I think browser vendors care about handling invalid HTML. Modern web designers however, are doing just fine authoring valid POSH.
16:18:06 [John_Boyer]
marcos, Steven answered your question though with the anecdote about reducing development time from 150 person years to 10
16:18:11 [shepazu]
raman: he wasn't on the panel because we wanted this to be a member-driven panel, no W3C Team members
16:18:13 [ChrisL]
molly, I was surprised that Steven was not on the panel, given the title and all
16:18:32 [ChrisL]
... although DanC is also not on the panel
16:18:32 [Marcos]
There are plenty of chairs up on the stage, maybe he could go and sit up there?
16:18:51 [mjs]
defining how to handle invalid content is important given the huge amount of existing content on the web and the need to support casual authors
16:18:52 [MikeSmith]
molly - original plan was to not have anybody from the W3C team on the panel
16:18:53 [karl]
glazou: you are one of the rare on the group
16:18:55 [John_Boyer]
shepazu, Roland Merrick is co-chair and not a team member
16:18:58 [anne]
ChrisL, supposedly it's about people in the industry
16:19:01 [aaronlev]
shepazu: why isn't there anyone at all representing xhtml2 though
16:19:02 [karl]
not enough unfortunately
16:19:06 [mjs]
you have to support these things as a loss leader for supporting standards-compliant content
16:19:07 [John_Boyer]
perhaps you should have invited him and Chris Wilson
16:19:17 [MSM]
Raman, it's OK, many XML people are used to making technical decisions based on their technical judgement, and not worrying overmuch about fashion. (Not all, of course, and it's not much fun to be held up as among the World's Worst Dressed. But we can bear being unfashionable, because the technology works for us.)
16:19:20 [raman]
I think the view Steven represents is best articulated by him and losing him because he is a team member is just wrong.
16:19:23 [Bert]
I'm sure if Steven were on the panel, people would complain about it being always the same people on the same panels.
16:19:29 [glazou]
karl: apple has an editor, msft has web expression, adobe has dw
16:19:32 [shepazu]
John_Boyer: I mean for this panel, not all of them
16:19:32 [Marcos]
John_boyer, who is you?
16:19:41 [dbaron]
Those public sites may claim to be XHTML, but they're actually serving XHTML as HTML.
16:19:46 [John_Boyer]
Forms WG Chair and XForms editor
16:19:52 [John_Boyer]
Also not a team member...
16:19:52 [MikeSmith]
was a mistake to not have Steven on the panel I think
16:19:56 [shepazu]
aaronlev: because the guy who was going to be up there had to cancel
16:19:58 [karl]
glazou: yes, but not represented in the group unfortunately
16:20:10 [raman]
if W3Cwere dynamic and agile, we would add Steven to panel *now*;-)
16:20:15 [glazou]
karl: old story
16:20:19 [shepazu]
Rich is on the XHTML2 WG
16:20:19 [raman]
as someone pointed out there are chairs there.
16:20:19 [John_Boyer]
+1000 Raman!
16:20:27 [MSM]
16:20:29 [molly]
Go Raman!
16:20:38 [aaronlev]
i agree with raman for once
16:20:42 [Marcos]
Steven, get up there ;)
16:20:43 [karl]
I want dreamweaver (adobe) on the HTML WG.
16:20:48 [raman]
Go Steven Go
16:20:50 [ted]
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16:20:58 [ChrisL]
Remember that we are missing a panel member (who uses xhtml2 in his business to server to multiple mobile targets) so it was intended to have a commercial, industry user
16:20:59 [glazou]
karl: ping our old friend sho kuwamoto ?
16:21:19 [cwiecha]
or just have all these panel participants sit down and have a conversation among the community
16:21:32 [Bert]
dynamic, agile, without focus and unprepared, yes :-)
16:21:39 [karl]
glazou: I don't know sho kuwamoto but would be happy to be put in contact.
16:21:54 [glazou]
karl: but he could give us a name
16:22:02 [ChrisL]
karl, I know sho but haven't seen him around in nearly a decade
16:22:24 [tantek]
sacrificing accessibility of authoring for accessibility of reading = fewer people authoring = fail.
16:22:34 [Lachy_]
as an author, ARIA isn't a good long term solution. It's a quick fix, band-aid solution
16:22:48 [ted]
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16:22:48 [karl]
Matt May (Adobe) will try too
16:22:52 [glazou]
ChrisL: I pinged him a while ago, he's still around
16:22:53 [ted]
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16:22:57 [Marcos]
I'm going to go home and write a ruby on rail app that creates xhtml2 and then use XSLT to transform it to HTML :P
16:23:03 [raman]
Agree with lachie for a change, ARIA is a papering over the pig solution
16:23:03 [shepazu]
Lachy_: I don't think you understand ARIA, then
16:23:17 [aaronlev]
Lachy_: it's a little more complicated than that
16:23:23 [steph]
Lachy_, raman: is it better not to have a solution at all? :)
16:23:30 [ChrisL]
Marcos, a similar app that converted xhtml2 to html5 would actually be a very nice thing. Care to give it a go?
16:23:33 [raman]
history teaches that such patches survive longer than they deserve to
16:23:38 [ted]
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16:23:42 [mjs]
ARIA is the analogue of low-level accessibility API
16:23:48 [anne]
16:23:54 [mjs]
many high-level toolkits provide built-in AX
16:23:55 [Lachy_]
I understand ARIA just fine. It's just not something that's really well designed for authors to use
16:24:04 [anne]
which is problematic, because authors in general don't care
16:24:08 [aaronlev]
raman: we should remove as much of the need for ARIA as we can, but we still need it
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16:24:18 [anne]
makes sense to support it anyway though, at least as short-term solution
16:24:30 [raman]
today's ARIA will lead to solutions that smell of twenty blind men feeling an elephant and concluding different things.
16:24:42 [mjs]
being able to customize standard controls more than currently is important
16:24:45 [klaus]
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16:24:47 [gavin_]
is it just me, or is the right-channel on the audio feed distorted?
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16:25:20 [aaronlev]
raman: so tell google to stop making google web toolkit, it's not accessible
16:25:25 [mjs]
with Cocoa there is much less need to break out of the standard controls than with HTML
16:25:33 [ted]
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16:26:12 [cblouch]
Are a preponderance of "authors" creating widgets from scratch and therefore need to understand ARIA implementation?
16:26:20 [raman]
aaron, as long as accessibility defines itself as "stopping people doing useful things" you'll fail. I dont live in that world.
16:26:21 [Steven]
+1 to fantasai re constraints
16:26:33 [ted]
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16:26:44 [aaronlev]
raman: you can innovate and be accessible
16:26:55 [Lachy_]
having constraint-based conformance in the spec would be useful for authors, not for implementers
16:27:02 [steph]
development by constraints would probably achieve more consistent end results
16:27:11 [dbaron]
I think constraints vs. algorithms depends on which is simpler / easier to understand for the particular case.
16:27:12 [mjs]
it's hard to write enough constraints to be as specific as an algorithm in terms of conformance requirements
16:27:17 [steph]
there could always be suggested algorithms
16:27:22 [mjs]
depends on for what
16:27:23 [Hixie]
dbaron: indeed
16:27:27 [matt]
The voting for the lightning talk wild-card slot is now open:
16:27:42 [Stuart]
constraints are requirements on alogorithms ie. an expression of what the algorithm is intended to accomplish (maybe)).
16:27:54 [matt]
matt has changed the topic to: W3C Technical Plenary Day - agenda at - lightning talk voting:
16:27:55 [dbaron]
In the particular case of table width balancing, it was simple to describe as a linear combination of bracketing value sets.
16:27:55 [MikeSmith]
matt - is mjs still eligible for wild-card slot for those talks?
16:28:15 [matt]
It's been filled up for weeks and weeks...
16:28:20 [MikeSmith]
16:28:23 [matt]
okay, maybe not weeks and weeks,but a while now :)
16:28:42 [Bert]
Constraints is a way of thinking that some people like, others can't get their head around it. We've got both constraints and algorithms in the CSS spec, dpeending on who wrote that section...
16:28:57 [mjs]
MikeSmith: I dunno if there's enough coffee in this place to make up for my sleep deficit in any case
16:28:59 [IanJ]
[Discussion of "view source" principle]
16:29:26 [Liam]
mjs, you are not alone :)
16:29:32 [s-mon]
Steven's points on abstraction and extraction were presented at apacheconeu 2007 - .
16:29:37 [tantek]
it's not a matter of "should". it's a matter of how "view source"able a technology affects its adoption.
16:29:43 [DanC_lap]
oh! speaking of mjs and slots... will you demo this CSS cool stuff in the "short talks" to the whole HTML WG on Thu, mjs?
16:29:48 [amit]
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16:30:00 [mjs]
DanC_lap: I can do that, though it won't be strictly on-topic
16:30:04 [cwiecha]
quality of this day so far is way down relative to last year
16:30:09 [mjs]
though making demos made me think of things that could be useful in HTML
16:30:18 [Hixie]
mjs: oooh, do tell us
16:30:26 [Hixie]
(ideally in the talk and then by e-mail, not here!)
16:30:26 [mauro]
16:30:28 [mauro]
Session 4: Lightning Talks
16:30:31 [mauro]
16:30:36 [DanC_lap]
it's sufficiently on-topic for my tastes, mjs. I'm sure my co-chair will agree. cool.
16:30:40 [Lachy_]
how long will the lightning talks go for?
16:30:44 [glazou]
someone has my lightning talk countdown page on stage ?
16:30:46 [mjs]
Hixie: mainly a way to have toggles that expose a pseudo-class for CSS styling but can contain arbitrary content
16:31:03 [mauro]
Lachy_, scheduled to last half an hour
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16:31:17 [DanC_lap]
how much time, mjs? is 20 minutes good? more? less?
16:31:20 [mjs]
Hixie: because :hover and :active cover a lot of animation triggers without script, but toggle is also a very common case that shouldn't require script
16:31:24 [mjs]
DanC_lap: less!
16:31:27 [dom]
vote for the last lightning talk at
16:31:30 [DKA]
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16:31:32 [mjs]
but I can try to throw some video in the demo maybe too
16:31:39 [dom]
go directly to if you have a W3C accountt
16:31:53 [DanC_lap]
(we should talk in #html-wg , mjs, though maybe we're done.)
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16:32:01 [Hixie]
mjs: a bit how like <details> toggles its open="" attribute on the fly?
16:32:12 [steph]
notes that the lightning talk login page doesn't have a privacy policy to tell you what they aren't going to do with your email :)
16:34:09 [MikeSmith]
mjs - could also demo the example of client-side DB storage implementation
16:34:24 [mjs]
MikeSmith: sure
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16:34:45 [DanC_lap]
matt, slide 3 now, I think
16:34:56 [DanC_lap]
yes... we're sync'd now.. "Measuring success"
16:35:14 [Chris]
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16:35:14 [molly]
"everyone lives in their own world and defines it as reality" Well said, Raman
16:35:17 [mikko_honkala]
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16:35:58 [DanC_lap]
indeed, molly
16:36:20 [citizenspace]
I'm willing to approximate reality as things you can share public URLs about.
16:36:47 [mjs]
citizenspace, that's a good working definition
16:37:07 [jun]
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16:37:21 [ChrisWilson]
Because nothing happens if it doesn't happen in public?
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16:38:18 [MikeSmith]
citizenspace - If that reality ignores the world of intranets and extranets then I wouldn't call it reality
16:38:26 [tantek]
what timbl_ said
16:38:45 [tantek]
"wonders whether the slides are on the web" - doesn't mean *private* web - means *public* web.
16:38:52 [ChrisWilson]
@tt well, not in my neighborhood except on the summer solstice
16:38:53 [KevinLawver]
This is a thunder talk. It's rolling instead of flashing. 8)
16:38:54 [DanC_lap]
the slides seem to be pdf; I doubt they're in the world-readable web; maybe matt can mail them to www-archive real quick?
16:39:10 [IanJ]
Raman summary: Two measures of success of std - people can build on it; people can do more than what you set out to do initially.
16:39:28 [Steven]
Reality is blue skies and clouds and birds singing, wind in your hair, a ride on your bike.
16:39:29 [MikeSmith]
If the world of public URLs is your only reality, you are missing a lot of important use cases and requirements
16:39:37 [tantek]
let's take it one step further. if it's not on the public Web, in an open standard indexed by search engines, does it really exist?
16:39:49 [MikeSmith]
tantek - yes
16:39:52 [mjs]
private uses of web technologies are interesting, but much harder to talk about meaningfully, since by definition we can't really know their properties
16:39:53 [janet]
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16:40:05 [tantek]
perhaps such things are outside the 80/20
16:40:07 [ChrisWilson]
Well, you have to open the box to see if the cat's dead...
16:40:31 [KevinLawver]
We should extend lightning talks to 3 minutes. 2 minutes for talking, 1 for technical difficulties.
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16:40:42 [MikeSmith]
mjs - we can know their properties by getting people who are using them to participate and represent their use cases and requirements
16:40:46 [ChrisWilson]
KevinLawver - I think you have that backward
16:41:02 [tantek]
mjs: precisely.
16:41:02 [mjs]
MikeSmith: how do we evaluate their claims objectively?
16:41:04 [molly]
kevinlawver: it's not helped by the fact that the folks here at the Hyatt don't have their acts together
16:41:09 [tantek]
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16:41:53 [mjs]
I know how to evaluate claims about the public we objectively - just look
16:41:53 [ChrisWilson]
mjs there is no absolute objectivity. The best we can ever do to approximate objectivity is sum as many subjective opinions as possible.
16:41:54 [MikeSmith]
mjs - I don't have an answer for that. But pretending they don't exist is not a solution.
16:41:57 [ChrisWilson]
Thus, the HTML WG. :)
16:42:01 [srv4661]
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16:42:10 [hsivonen]
molly: the infrastructure works great compared to XTech this year ;-)
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16:42:36 [tantek]
MikeSmith, pretending they don't exist is a prioritization. and a good one.
16:42:41 [molly]
hsivonen: that's true, but we were in Paris ;-) You'd think next to MIT maybe they could get their technical act together
16:42:49 [mjs]
MikeSmith: I don't think we should pretend they don't exist, it's just much harder to address whatever is special about them through a public open process
16:43:18 [molly]
thank you daniel, may I have another?
16:43:21 [ChrisWilson]
tantek, your first phrase is a fact; your second is a subjective statement.
16:43:40 [glazou]
molly: you need food for dinner tonight ?
16:43:54 [ChrisWilson]
no, she now has a trout.
16:43:56 [Bert]
Please use "Foo," is you talk to Foo and "Foo:" if you wuote Foo. It's so confusing to only know what the : means at the end of the sentence.
16:44:02 [Bert]
16:44:06 [molly]
no, I just figured two French trout are better than one
16:44:16 [Bert]
16:44:40 [MikeSmith]
mjs - I agree it's hard. It is a challenge to even get working-group participation from small-shop developers who are creating web apps for deployment in intranets and extranets for clients
16:44:42 [glazou]
two french wet trouts is a synonym to french bureaucracy
16:44:57 [MikeSmith]
because they already think we are way out of touch with their business concerns
16:45:04 [ChrisWilson]
Are lightning talks ever actually three minutes long?
16:45:08 [Steven]
The plural of "trout" is "trite"
16:45:20 [mjs]
MikeSmith: my best suggestion for how to help them is that they get to free-ride on things done for the benefit of the public web
16:45:23 [Dennis]
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16:45:27 [KevinLawver]
Who's keeping the timer?
16:45:32 [tantek]
mjs - that's an excellent summary.
16:45:34 [glazou]
16:45:43 [ChrisWilson]
In Canada, the plural of trout is "troot".
16:46:02 [molly]
ArtB what a great idea
16:46:12 [tantek]
design for the public web, and let the benefits trickle down to those choosing to operate outside of the public web.
16:46:19 [tantek]
much better than the converse.
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16:46:30 [Lachy_]
what the? The plural of trout is trout!
16:46:31 [ChrisWilson]
glazou, thx.
16:46:41 [KevinLawver]
Why do we always use our mothers as examples of "regular" users?
16:46:49 [Steven]
I use my grandmother
16:46:54 [Steven]
my mother is clueless
16:46:56 [DanC_lap]
(that .mobi pitch has people nodding. hmm... what's a good counter-point?)
16:46:56 [moshe]
speaking as a single-person consultancy and invited expert, W3 stuff is expensive and a big committment.
16:47:03 [glazou]
Steven, ROTFL
16:47:35 [molly]
my mom is the perfect example of a "regular" user (and by "regular" I mean "real world" ). Now I shall duck and run for cover.
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16:47:42 [ChrisWilson]
my mother is an excellent example of a user. She's not techno-illiterate, but doesn't like messing with tech for tech's sake.
16:47:42 [KevinLawver]
DanC_lap we need a .huge TLD for gigantic browser-crashing complex sites.
16:47:46 [raman]
I've left the slides here:
16:47:47 [hsivonen]
I use .com sites on Nokia devices. Not .mobi sites
16:47:49 [DanC_lap]
telling stories across generations is a challenge; I take "my grandmother..." as an archtype
16:47:49 [glazou]
molly, don't speak of ducks
16:47:53 [IanJ]
Are people nodding at the idea of mobile-friendly content, or the ".mobi" tld?
16:47:57 [Danny]
I wonder why fathers and grandfathers never get tagged as the ordinary/simplistic user. My father (a mathematician) is a far less sophisticated web user than my mother (a flutist). :-)
16:48:07 [DanC_lap]
ah! counterpoint: One Web
16:48:12 [marie]
+1 danny :)
16:48:12 [Bert]
How about a TLD .real-world ?
16:48:16 [moshe]
google manages to use the tags correctly to give mobile-friendly sites.
16:48:20 [ChrisWilson]
Danny, I think you just answered your own question
16:48:20 [dglazkov_m]
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16:48:23 [cblouch]
Hmmm. I'm not clear. So .mobi is a way to brach the web for mobile devices?
16:48:28 [Lachy_]
I'm having trouble with this speaker's accent. Which web site is he talking about?
16:48:35 [tantek]
DanC_lap, re: counter-point to .mobi:
16:48:47 [plh]
my father never touched a computer, at least my mother tries
16:48:52 [Danny]
I guess it wasn't really a question, Chris.
16:48:56 [ChrisWilson]
20 second warning...
16:48:56 [molly]
Lachy_ he's showing a URL for
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16:49:08 [molly]
ChrisWilson - do you have the gong?
16:49:09 [ChrisWilson]
16:49:18 [Lachy_]
thanks molly
16:49:19 [ChrisWilson]
hey, that was pretty close
16:49:24 [Danny]
:-) MSM
16:49:33 [gsnedders]
my mother doesn't even use computers, which makes her a hard example
16:49:37 [moshe]
at least .mobi is cheap
16:49:46 [IanJ]
zakim is here; zakim could help with timing.
16:50:04 [MikeSmith]
moshe - true that -- what you said about expensiveness of standards participation for single-person consultancy -- or for most small shops
16:50:12 [ChrisWilson]
Zakim isn't going to stand up and shout "siddown, your time's up". :)
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16:50:24 [IanJ]
More on TLD proliferation:
16:50:29 [MikeSmith]
any time you devote to working group participation is time you could otherwise be working and billing to a client
16:50:43 [IanJ]
"New Top Level Domains .mobi and .xxx Considered Harmful" is title of above uri
16:50:43 [steph]
mikesmith: that applies to a small agency too
16:50:46 [KevinLawver]
And .iphone and .blackberry and .palm.
16:50:49 [KevinLawver]
I want lawver.paper
16:50:53 [gsnedders]
ChrisWilson: we could use someone in here as a relay from here :P
16:50:55 [hsivonen]
16:51:11 [KevinLawver]
Chaals++ as well. Because if not, he'll kill us all.
16:51:23 [arun]
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16:51:25 [glazou]
there should NOT be questions now
16:51:35 [MikeSmith]
So do we end up with WG participation too heavily weighted toward involvement from people with too much time on their hands? :)
16:51:49 [moshe]
no, rich crazy people
16:51:53 [Lachy_]
I agree with chaals
16:51:54 [MikeSmith]
16:51:55 [molly]
MikeSmith no, we end up with poor very tired people
16:51:59 [Jonathan]
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16:52:03 [DanC_lap]
applause in reply to CMN who made the "One Web" point better than I ever could.
16:52:08 [molly]
moshe, I wish I had the rich, since I already have the crazy
16:52:12 [tantek]
Chaals do it again!
16:52:28 [moshe]
my nokia mobile has no trouble with properly desinged web site
16:52:53 [tantek]
ok, that was the dumbest answer I've ever heard
16:53:01 [steph]
i think for any kind of involvement, there needs to be key decision makers (who listen)
16:53:07 [KevinLawver]
No one wants to see
16:53:13 [IanJ]
[TBL on the problem of tlds that are topic-specific and the combinatorial problem]
16:53:14 [Bert]
And we need .valid so you know the web site is valid. And .ie6, for stuff that works on IE6.
16:53:19 [steph]
if there are no owners of people who take the resposibility and accountability of decisions made, we spend all the time fighting
16:53:21 [tantek]
go TBL - reductio yeah!
16:53:33 [sandro]
that's actually a good reason: .mobi is a way to signal people that it's worth trying to access on their mobile phone. once every site is mobile is happy, then it will be obsolete. [ of course, then TimBL advocates .nxxx, wai, .lang, too show the site is good with those standards.... :-) ]
16:53:41 [DanC_lap]
16:53:47 [Steven]
Oooh! .w3c to show that they are standards compliant!
16:53:52 [DanC_lap]
TBL _did_ start by saying yes, let's make web sites mobile-happy
16:53:56 [gsnedders]
.nxxx seems useless. surely everything should be assumed they are safe?
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16:53:59 [moshe]
I do *not* want to see the compliance suite for the .xxx domain
16:54:00 [cwiecha]
he just wants to tag them all with RDF
16:54:12 [molly]
moshe, you'd be in the minority I think!
16:54:14 [arun]
LOL Moshe
16:54:16 [gsnedders]
the vast body of the web is not .nxxx
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16:54:16 [ChrisWilson]
Steven, .html to show they're not? :)
16:54:22 [Steven]
16:54:33 [cblouch] makes it all clear.
16:54:52 [raman]
16:54:57 [tantek]
"there is compliance checked" - compliance to *what* test suite?
16:54:59 [DanC_lap]
note CMN is co-editor of
16:55:07 [sandro]
.good for good websites!
16:55:14 [s-mon]
:^) to all.
16:55:15 [IanJ]
AnnBassetti: "It's just not scalable for us." [more tlds]
16:55:16 [DanC_lap]
mjs, the lightning talk was for .mobi
16:55:17 [Lachy_]
.evil for scam sites
16:55:22 [steph]
the problem that's not addressed actually is the usability of a small screen
16:55:29 [mjs]
DanC_lap: I mean anyone but the presenter
16:55:31 [Yves]
dr.evil, nice one ;)
16:55:35 [tantek]
"they are just something convenient that you can use if you want" - so is "" or ""
16:55:37 [steph]
you can't serve something that's meant for a full page onto a small thing without constraining what's being served
16:55:50 [MikeSmith]
mjs - Serge is sorta involved with .mobi
16:56:00 [gsnedders]
spam is bad? oh.
16:56:13 [hsivonen]
tantek,, which is aimed at desktops
16:56:15 [marie]
16:56:16 [raman]
too much ham is bad for you too;-)
16:56:23 [s-mon]
mmm, ham.
16:56:33 [ChrisWilson]
steph, we should all aspire to scalability.
16:56:39 [ChrisWilson]
clock started
16:56:47 [John_Boyer]
too much chocolate is apparently bad for you too, despite being oh so sweet
16:56:52 [KevinLawver]
spam, spam, spam, spaaaaaaaaaaaaam, glorious spaaaaaam.
16:57:15 [ChrisWilson]
KevinLawver, if you break out in song I'll join in
16:57:26 [tex]
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16:57:26 [steph]
ChrisWilson: yes but on the fly, the moment the page is served? :)
16:57:27 [Lachy_]
16:57:28 [KevinLawver]
Someone hold Tantek back. We're talking about RDFa.
16:57:37 [dbaron]
That slide wasn't valid HTML...
16:57:43 [tantek]
16:57:49 [KevinLawver]
16:58:23 [DanC_lap]
(I think the record should include /me comments in the case of this meeting)
16:58:24 [anne]
.me can't read this
16:58:26 [gsnedders]
Lachy_: yes, but that's only links!1!1!!
16:58:40 [Lachy_]
isn't he only talking about link spam?
16:58:46 [gsnedders]
16:58:50 [KevinLawver]
Sorry, that should be Lachy++ on the rel="nofollow"
16:58:51 [DanC_lap]
anne, can you see two colors? I don't think he intends you to read the words
16:59:04 [ChrisWilson]
30 secs left
16:59:08 [anne]
DanC_lap, oh, ok
16:59:08 [gsnedders]
the implication though is that the comments themselves are bad
16:59:20 [gsnedders]
(hi all, BTW)
16:59:24 [Liam]
the slides appear not to be essential to the talk
16:59:28 [ChrisWilson]
and ....
16:59:32 [Lachy_]
ha! This guy is very optomistic
16:59:32 [ChrisWilson]
Ends on time!
16:59:41 [molly]
hey, that was a true lightening talk!
16:59:45 [steph]
16:59:46 [moshe]
i need a technical ref for this solution
16:59:46 [ChrisWilson]
wow. Two in a row
16:59:48 [ChrisL]
"I _don't_ like Spam! Look, do you have anything without
16:59:48 [ChrisL]
Spam in it?" The man sitting at the table asked.
16:59:48 [ChrisL]
The waiter thought about it. "Well, there's the Spam Eggs
16:59:48 [ChrisL]
Sausage Bacon and Spam... That doesn't have much Spam in it."
16:59:48 [ChrisL]
"But I don't want _any_ Spam."
16:59:54 [gregt]
That was good
17:00:04 [ChrisWilson]
I don't like spam!
17:00:05 [KevinLawver]
Wait... he has to then get the search engines to not index and apply those links to their algorithms and explain to my mom (there she is) what the heck RDFa is.
17:00:07 [tantek]
nope, RDFa solution for "stopping link spam" will fail for the same reason rel="nofollow" was not really effective.
17:00:15 [Liam]
Lachy_: yes, rel=nofollow and also HTML comments to turn on and off search-engine indexing for fragments of a page.
17:00:18 [tantek]
link spamming is directed at search engines *and* users
17:00:21 [DanC_lap]
Lachy, PHB is not a dreamer. he lives in criminal drek.
17:00:30 [tantek]
user clicks on links is sufficient incentive to link spam.
17:00:33 [tlr]
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17:00:35 [fantasai]
anne: constraint-based descriptions are easier to understand and easier to test.
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17:00:52 [anne]
fantasai, I guess that depends on who you talk to
17:00:54 [tlr]
+1 to fantasai
17:01:13 [Steven]
+1 to fantasai
17:01:15 [fantasai]
anne: Depending on your context, algorithms can be easier to implement
17:01:18 [mjs]
constraint-based descriptions are harder to implement
17:01:31 [mjs]
it's true that the constraints lead directly to some obvious tests
17:01:32 [PHB]
rel=nofoloow is not a solution to linkspam
17:01:36 [mjs]
but not necessarily more subtle tests
17:01:38 [anne]
fantasai, from experience, implementing an algorithm is trivial
17:01:38 [raman]
mjs, most layout engines are constraint based at the end.
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17:01:46 [fantasai]
anne: So I can't tell you which combination gives you better interoperability
17:01:47 [tlr]
anne, from experience, it isn't
17:01:51 [mjs]
it's easier for something constraint-based to have loopholes or ambiguities
17:01:57 [anne]
I have no experience with implementing constraint-based specifications
17:01:59 [PHB]
rel=nofollow is a procedural statement, we need to go declarative
17:02:05 [fantasai]
anne: But I can tell you which one gives you better tests and better understanding by the people who write tests, write pages, and report bugs
17:02:06 [mjs]
raman, ultimately, the CPU runs an algorithm
17:02:13 [tlr]
17:02:37 [mjs]
the layout engines I know about aren't implemented much like the canonical idea of a constraint solver, but that's neither here nor there
17:02:39 [raman]
but specifying it using constraints allows one to implement it as efficiently as one is capable of.
17:02:47 [anne]
fantasai, you're the first to make that remark
17:02:54 [tantek]
PHB: rel="nofollow" indicates a semantic. see
17:02:57 [mjs]
oh I should also mention that it's easier for a constraint-based definition to be unimplementable
17:02:58 [anne]
although maybe we should ask the people making the HTML 5 tests how they feel about this
17:03:08 [fantasai]
mjs: true, but they are implemented in different ways: an algorithm-based for CSS would be ridiculous
17:03:15 [PHB]
Knowing who posted a comment allows us to use Slashdot style karma techniques
17:03:15 [anne]
(other than myself)
17:03:25 [hsivonen]
fantasai, constraits don't cover error recovery (at least usually)
17:03:25 [ed]
raman: what's stopping you from implementing a more efficient algorithm as long as it delivers the same result? at least there is a reference to compare with
17:03:30 [ChrisWilson]
time's up.
17:03:32 [mjs]
raman, requirements stated as algorithms are implicitly "as if", typically
17:03:40 [fantasai]
hsivonen: I'm not saying everything should be written as constraints
17:03:48 [PHB]
tantek, nofollow sure sounds like an order to me.
17:03:53 [mjs]
fantasai, and the constraint rules for floats in CSS aren't ridiculous?
17:03:56 [fantasai]
hsivonen: but where it's possible and practical, I believe that is the better system.
17:03:58 [tlr]
mjs, the conclusion from your point about implementability above is to insist on a proof of existence
17:04:04 [dom]
17:04:07 [tantek]
PHB - the naming of "nofollow" is suboptimal to be sure. See "issues" section of same URL.
17:04:11 [dom]
voting for lightning talk
17:04:18 [anne]
mjs, they're always "as if"
17:04:20 [anne]
17:04:31 [Al]
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17:04:41 [tlr]
anne, that's not obvious, actually
17:04:46 [KevinLawver]
Woo-hoo, lunch!
17:04:52 [mjs]
anne: it depends on what spec, but I guess it would be weird for a spec to have requirements with no observable difference
17:04:56 [anne]
you just want A -> algo -> B to always be the same, regardless of "algo" (could be implemented by the spec, browser, etc.)
17:05:08 [wellsk]
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17:05:29 [MSM]
ed, I think the experience of people who tried defining programming languages by means of reference implementations was that the method was inflexible as regards level of detail -- it ended up committing the language definition to behaviors that the WG wanted NOT to specify. That's one reason more declarative spec methods ultimately prevailed.
17:05:30 [gsnedders]
heh. every ones goes to lunch.
17:05:34 [DS]
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17:05:34 [fantasai]
anne: right. A constraint-based spec gives you A and B
17:05:44 [gregt]
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17:05:46 [fantasai]
anne: and an algorithm-based spec gives you A and algo
17:05:50 [Ralph]
[lunch break - 1h25m]
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17:06:05 [mauro]
-> Technical Plenary Wild Card Lightning Talk voting
17:06:08 [fantasai]
anne: And since a
17:06:23 [DanC_lap]
mauro, was that announced?
17:06:27 [fantasai]
anne: but algo isn't what we care about, B is
17:06:40 [fantasai]
anne: so if it's not too awkward to give B, give B and let the implementor figure out algo
17:06:40 [jun]
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17:07:05 [fantasai]
-> lunch
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17:07:11 [mauro]
DanC_lap, yes, on this channel by Matt
17:07:18 [chaals]
BOF tables on top floor?
17:07:23 [mauro]
briefly mentioned just a couple of minutes ago also
17:08:30 [gsnedders]
meh. if all you guys in Cambridge are eating, I will too.
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17:14:22 [Zakim]
- +1.972.296.aadd
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17:27:09 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.219.aaee
17:27:58 [Lachy]
what happened to the audio stream? it says not found
17:35:18 [klanz2]
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17:36:29 [tantek]
Lachy, audio dropped for me too. I think they are all out to lunch. Literally.
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18:09:26 [Zakim]
- +1.512.219.aaee
18:10:04 [amy]
the lunch break is until 1:30pm
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+ +1.512.219.aaff
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- +1.512.219.aaff
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18:30:20 [matt]
zakim, who is here?
18:30:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MeetingRoom, Matt (muted), +1.309.329.aabb (muted)
18:30:21 [Zakim]
On IRC I see mofoghlu, amit, kazuhito, mattmay, PGrosso, Norm, Nick, mauro, jresig, RogerC, ed, chaals, Rafa, Vangelis, cblouch_, Kai, tatsuya, fumi, factoryjoe, steve, Katsu,
18:30:25 [Zakim]
... najib, Steven, herve, glazou, Julian, KRosenbl, klanz2, Lachy, hober, gsnedders, Ken, holly, jeffm, sandro, ted, FabienG, dorchard, Keeper, brutzman, tH, Philip, gavin_,
18:30:29 [Zakim]
... dglazkov, kaz, Lachy_, citizenspace, hsivonen, tantek, Jules, vivien, francois, dom, s-mon, Jean-Gui, fantasai, mikko, caribou, matt, anthony, chibao, MikeSmith, Bert, Hixie,
18:30:32 [Zakim]
... maxf, amy, ra
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+ +1.972.296.aagg
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18:33:27 [dom]
don't forget to vote on lightning talks at
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18:33:42 [mauro]
Session 5: Openness of W3C Working Groups
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18:34:22 [MikeSmith]
Laissez les bon ton roulette
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18:40:23 [Hixie]
arun: dude. no flash photography. :-P
18:40:59 [ChrisWilson]
come on, Hixie, that's what you get for being a celebrity. :)
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18:41:46 [Steven]
No seriously, no flash photography for health reasons
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18:43:09 [arun]
@hixie: I use soft, skin friendly light aka Very Expensive Flash. you don't need to wear sunblock even.
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18:43:37 [ChrisWilson]
no, don't use a flash - just shine a spotlight up there. :P
18:44:03 [RogerC]
How about responding to informed but hostile participation from non-members that is motivated to be obstructive?
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18:45:30 [Lachy]
what the? The really technical discussions are where the real work is done, even if some people find them boring and difficult to understand. The rest is often just bikeshedding
18:45:40 [Hixie]
RogerC: you have the same problem with members too, sometimes :-)
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18:46:00 [ChrisWilson]
Hixie - thank you, I didn't want to be the one to say it.
18:46:21 [RogerC]
Yeah, but you've GOT to work with those. Why open oneself up to hostile NON-members?
18:46:24 [molly]
Waves back to ChrisWilson
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18:46:52 [Hixie]
RogerC: i hope my bit will answer that
18:47:21 [KevinLawver]
I think I may have to keep glazou's camera.
18:47:25 [mikko]
what's uri of the audio recording?
18:47:34 [Lachy]
18:47:34 [matt]
Don't forget to vote for the wild card Lightning Talk:
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18:48:26 [molly]
Hey Kevin, you can give that camera to me, in an open, real world way, and I could, in an open, real world way, keep that camera.
18:48:37 [ChrisWilson]
RogerC, in my experience they'll find you anyway. It's really more of a sausage vendor problem.
18:48:42 [mikko]
thanks Lachy
18:48:49 [charlton]
which 'real world' are we in?
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18:49:07 [molly]
my real world, of course.
18:49:14 [raman]
18:49:18 [RogerC]
Sausage vendor??? That's over my head.
18:49:32 [ChrisWilson]
There's a sausage factory in Pike Place Market, where you can watch the manufacture; they never seem to do much business.
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18:49:36 [charlton]
ah, i was frightened i was in lab:socalledrealworld for a second
18:49:50 [cgi-irc]
Those who like sausages shouldn't watch them being made - Bismarck or someone
18:50:01 [RogerC]
Ahhh. Very good.
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18:50:16 [ChrisWilson]
(making standards can be compared to making sausage - examining the process closely may cause disgust, though the results may be tasty)
18:50:26 [tlr]
I think the original quote was something along the lines that laws are like sausages. You don't want to see how they are made.
18:50:46 [raman]
18:50:54 [tantek]
that's completely wrong. standards should be made in the open.
18:51:07 [factoryjoe]
18:51:08 [tantek]
you *do* want to see how they are made
18:51:09 [factoryjoe]
18:51:13 [factoryjoe]
err ipr--
18:51:14 [raman]
and standards should not look like sausages
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18:51:38 [tantek]
sausages are bad for you - too much in saturated fats, higher risk of heart disease etc.
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18:51:50 [KevinLawver]
standards should taste like sausages though. sausages are yummy.
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18:51:55 [karl]
tantek: it's what art is saying.
18:51:56 [molly]
we want lean sausages
18:51:57 [tlr]
tantek, the point in the Bismarck quote is that the process is somewhat messier than what one might expect, and not a very attractive sight.
18:52:10 [dsinger]
I make sausages at home and it is at least as much fun as making standards
18:52:17 [ChrisWilson]
tantek, i didn't make a statement that they SHOULDN'T be made in the open. (Note I'm co-chair of the most open W3C WG.) I said the process may seem disgusting.
18:52:19 [dsinger]
and much more visua;
18:52:20 [tlr]
The quote is actually not a good argument against transparency.
18:52:24 [raman]
authoring web sites shouldn't feel like making sausages either
18:52:34 [tantek]
Bismarck is basically being patronizing - "trust us, we know what we're doing, you don't need to know" - an obsolete attitude.
18:52:42 [ChrisWilson]
And salmon sausage (my favorite) isn't particularly high in fat.
18:52:44 [jerome]
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18:52:45 [factoryjoe]
democracy is a messy process
18:52:46 [raman]
1+ to tantek
18:52:56 [tantek]
if your standards aren't developed in the open, then your standards aren't open.
18:52:57 [molly]
an attitude that SHOULD be obsolete, but alas is not
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18:52:59 [ChrisWilson]
tlr, I didn't intend it to be.
18:53:06 [karl]
democracy is not republic. just for the record.
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18:53:34 [tantek]
and science is not a democracy, also for the record.
18:53:34 [tlr]
ChrisW, I think we're saying the same thing. ;)
18:53:49 [ChrisWilson]
wow, a mis-directed pig pile! Yes, tlr, we are obviously in violent agreement here.
18:53:55 [raman]
except for people's democratic republic
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18:54:13 [gsnedders]
who's talking?
18:54:14 [ChrisWilson]
18:54:21 [ChrisWilson]
Ian Hickson
18:54:21 [dom]
Ian Hickson
18:54:23 [molly]
Hixie is about to teach us
18:54:25 [ChrisWilson]
(is talking)
18:54:26 [molly]
how to make an open working group
18:54:39 [gsnedders]
molly: I can hear the feed. No intro as to who, sadly :(
18:55:00 [MikeSmith]
hmm, tactless
18:55:10 [molly]
"we want to know if our spec sucks"
18:55:11 [molly]
18:55:12 [gsnedders]
Your spec sucks.
18:55:19 [dsinger]
specs always suck for some percentage of the population
18:55:26 [shepazu]
but sometimes contention *isn't* productive
18:55:29 [ChrisWilson]
come on, don't make him laugh in the middle of talking. :)
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18:55:39 [factoryjoe]
i think he's talking about the unwashed masses
18:55:40 [tantek]
as long as that % is < 20, you're probably doing ok
18:55:42 [gsnedders]
ChrisWilson: we'll try not to. maybe fail, though.
18:55:43 [karl]
hmm interesting. Web designers are saying html 5 sucks for them, but people in the WG say "it's not for you to read". :)
18:55:56 [dsinger]
sometimes the contention that results from misunderstandings of incompleteness are truly a nightmare
18:56:03 [gsnedders]
"a lot of work" — it is?
18:56:07 [mikko_honkala]
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18:56:18 [hober]
As a sometimes-web-designer, I have to say I like the draft as it is
18:56:21 [justin]
"an open working group is a community."
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18:56:30 [gsnedders]
I thought it could just be thrown together overnight.
18:56:38 [ht]
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18:56:55 [gsnedders]
There is source-code! HTML!
18:56:59 [MikeSmith]
treating everybody with respect but being tough on people that troll
18:57:08 [gsnedders]
I thought Hixie had only banned one person…
18:57:38 [gsnedders]
the audio feed is getting quiter
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18:57:39 [MikeSmith]
not sure we are doing either of those two things well on public-html ...
18:57:46 [gsnedders]
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18:58:07 [DanC_lap]
I've been sending "please be polite" messages; I haven't seen any repeat offenders
18:58:08 [karl]
18:58:12 [gsnedders]
someone tell Hixie to move back to the mic
18:58:25 [raman]
peoples democratic republics are usually dictatorships
18:58:26 [molly]
he's right on the mic
18:58:31 [molly]
it's not him
18:58:36 [plh]
Hixie didn't move away, might be an issue with the feed
18:58:38 [arun]
FWIW, the HTML5 mailing list is VERY busy. So I have to set up topic watch lists and people watch lists. This isn't bad, but may be a side effect of working in the open.
18:58:38 [gsnedders]
hmm. the feed got quieter half way through.
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18:59:07 [gsnedders]
Distributed SCM ftw!
18:59:08 [molly]
arun - agreed
18:59:13 [arun]
I'll 'fess up and say I don't read everything on the listserv. But Wiki I do read -- and it works well :)
18:59:18 [dom]
karl suggested setting up a DIGG-like system for public-html; I thought the idea is excellent
18:59:21 [KevinLawver]
Did the network just get slower?
18:59:26 [tantek]
arun, exactly. email doesn't scale. Wikis do.
18:59:29 [molly]
but I do think the wikis and even more defining - the F2F meets
18:59:38 [molly]
like this, can make a huge difference
18:59:45 [molly]
as Hixie just said
18:59:54 [cgi-irc]
Would WHATWG work without a benevolent dictator?
18:59:54 [molly]
it'll be interesting to find out as we see the HTML WG meet for the first time tomorrow
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19:00:05 [karl]
hixie forgets to mention that the whatwg has not been always open. It has been a slow process where they open little by little things. When the push was hard from the community and when the crowd became a community.
19:00:11 [DanC_lap]
the wiki/irc combo is pretty nifty.
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19:00:13 [karl]
basically it takes time to create community
19:00:14 [ChrisWilson]
can there ever be such a thing as a benevolent dictator?
19:00:23 [karl]
it is not a "Oh cool let's start a community".
19:00:24 [DanC_lap]
we don't have a bot that notifies #html-wg when the wiki changes
19:00:26 [karl]
19:00:30 [gsnedders]
cgi-irc: you need someone who is willing to do things even when there are still objections to it
19:00:37 [raman]
benevolant to whom? dictators are usually benevolant to themselves first
19:00:41 [gsnedders]
cgi-irc: that's about it, IMO
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19:00:46 [arun]
I'm curious to see the "unconference" in action :)
19:00:56 [rigo]
if everything is open, people will use large cc-lists instead of the archived mailing-list to communicate and organize in a visible way..
19:00:57 [tantek]
arun, unconference--
19:01:00 [ChrisWilson]
raman, that's my point precisely.
19:01:23 [arun]
tantek, you'd prefer structured discussions around agenda, etc.?
19:01:24 [DanC_lap]
sure, ChrisWilson, the internet is full of successful benevolent dictatorships. perl and python certainly started that way. W3C did too.
19:01:26 [tantek]
rigo - in practice that hasn't happened
19:01:34 [karl]
arun: that will be unactions
19:01:36 [dsinger]
there is a middle ground, where you regularly expose your work-in-progress and accept comment
19:01:38 [Kai]
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19:01:41 [tantek]
no arun, the term "unconference" is wrong framing, it's a negative
19:01:54 [s-mon]
really? that would seem to be counter to what we should be doing. who needs police?
19:01:55 [dsinger]
but the very intermediate stages are a litte more proviate
19:01:57 [dsinger]
19:02:00 [DanC_lap]
oh? what's a better term than "unconference", tantek?
19:02:04 [gsnedders]
DanC_lap: sadly, it is also full of unsuccessful ones
19:02:04 [rigo]
tantek, in practice I have seen it happening, perhaps not yet in HTML ...
19:02:09 [factoryjoe]
how to take feedback:
19:02:11 [molly]
open meeting?
19:02:11 [ChrisWilson]
DanC_lap, who is the benevolent dictator of the W3C? Before you say tbl, is he really a dictator?
19:02:11 [arun]
@tantek -- ahhhh gotcha. but what's better terminology?
19:02:18 [arun]
LOL DanC* jinx
19:02:24 [rigo]
but the discussion is hopefully beyond the nombril of HTML
19:02:24 [tantek]
arun, see Wikipedia entry for BarCamp.
19:02:30 [DanC_lap]
tbl had dictator power when W3C started, yes. There's now an appeal process where he doesn't.
19:02:43 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:02:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
19:02:46 [molly]
Paul Cotton is up
19:02:47 [ChrisWilson]
19:02:53 [John_Boyer]
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19:02:57 [molly]
Microsoft, WS-Policy WG co-chaier
19:03:09 [molly]
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19:03:18 [gsnedders]
nice him introducing himself. makes it easier to know :)
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19:03:25 [charlton]
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19:03:27 [s-mon]
i find it odd that anyone would feel assured that they can get away with shenanigans, without reflecting on the need for self-correction.
19:03:42 [charlton]
some don't care
19:03:45 [molly]
s-mon self correction requires self reflection
19:03:52 [sniffles]
i'm quite surprised that all fits on one page
19:03:54 [s-mon]
yes, indeed.
19:03:56 [molly]
most people don't think like that.
19:03:59 [ChrisL]
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19:04:02 [KevinLawver]
And self-correction is more quickly spurred by public humiliation. 8)
19:04:11 [charlton]
s-mon and sincere desire to do more than extract royalties
19:04:15 [molly]
hmmm, I'm not so sure about that
19:04:17 [gsnedders]
I think this summary shows why: it's just too long.
19:04:19 [Dowan]
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19:04:20 [molly]
look at Microsoft, Kevin :P
19:04:37 [charlton]
kplawver some take pride in specs that suck
19:04:46 [charlton]
+1 tantek
19:04:46 [vivien]
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19:04:46 [DanC_lap]
think like what, molly? are you refer to paul's process-on-one-slide? have you seen hixie's chutes and ladders?
19:04:49 [ChrisWilson]
but kevinLawver, public humiliation (of said dictator) doesn't generally happen in a dictatorship
19:05:05 [molly]
ChrisWilson, oh it happens, but then they lop of yer head
19:05:14 [molly]
19:05:35 [charlton]
agreed molly, it happens, but rolls off
19:05:38 [ChrisWilson]
that's not so humiliating. "who else finds that funny?"
19:06:00 [factoryjoe]
who's speaking and is he canadian?
19:06:05 [jkirk2]
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19:06:19 [justin]
amen... not just about being open... also have to engage the community
19:06:20 [KevinLawver]
It's Paul Cotton from Microsoft speaking @ the moment.
19:06:23 [gsnedders]
Microsoft, WS-Policy WG chair
19:06:26 [tantek]
"3-4 hours on the phone" - oh the pain.
19:06:27 [ChrisWilson]
Paul Cotton of Microsoft, and I don't think he's Canadian
19:06:28 [molly]
factoryjoe - hey there chris, it's paul cotton
19:06:32 [ChrisWilson]
19:06:32 [amy]
Paul Cotton is Canadian
19:06:35 [factoryjoe]
19:06:36 [factoryjoe]
19:06:38 [amy]
or he lives in Canada
19:06:41 [herve]
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19:06:41 [factoryjoe]
my canadiar is working
19:06:42 [ChrisWilson]
really? I'd never noticed.
19:06:54 [Henny_]
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19:06:57 [charlton]
har factoryjoe
19:06:59 [ChrisWilson]
he works in Redmond, though
19:07:10 [Liam]
19:07:20 [molly]
listen to his "aboots" dead giveaway
19:07:21 [DanC_lap]
I suspect some people are more comfortable by voice than marathon IRC sessions, tantek
19:07:27 [AnnBassetti]
lives in Ottawa ... travels to Redmond, eh?
19:07:33 [rigo]
Liam, tell me more aboot it ;)
19:07:41 [Liam]
he has an office in Redmond, but works from home, or certainly did during XQuery work
19:07:42 [amy]
"aboot" and "oot" (for en-yank "out")
19:07:54 [gsnedders]
brb — supper
19:08:09 [Henny_]
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19:08:12 [tantek]
DanC_lap - phone doesn't scale as well as IRC.
19:08:13 [raman]
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19:08:36 [tantek]
you can keep up with "cross talk" on IRC. but not on the phone.
19:08:40 [SteveH]
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19:08:41 [Steven]
Redmond is almost Canada
19:08:51 [DanC_lap]
true, but phone isn't as rich
19:09:23 [DanC_lap]
right... IRC isn't as rich
19:09:26 [factoryjoe]
now it's a real word:
19:09:35 [karl]
again, each communications system have benefits and drawbacks depending on the context.
19:09:40 [molly]
a real word in the real world. Yes!
19:09:43 [karl]
Being less binary in discussions helps
19:09:44 [DanC_lap]
I think people's stresses in response to "lots of phone" vs "lots of IRC" is different.
19:09:56 [Yves]
well phone is not that great to share URIs, both irc and phone have their strong points
19:10:07 [hal_]
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19:10:38 [raman]
when I proposed using IRC during teleconferences in early days of multimodal, people said "we cant concentrate on both" and I said "then multimodal will fail";-)
19:10:39 [tantek]
irc is easier to archive, index, search.
19:10:46 [Liam]
XQuery was slow to start using IRC, but later found it useful
19:10:52 [tantek]
ooh good one Yves. irc has better i18n.
19:10:54 [karl]
rigo: and less dangerous for physical aggression
19:10:57 [DanC_lap]
raman... hah!
19:10:58 [Liam]
raman: :-)
19:11:05 [charlton]
19:11:07 [caribou]
but IRC does not convey all the tone of the discussion
19:11:08 [arun]
LOL Raman :)
19:11:18 [charlton]
chad does carine
19:11:21 [charlton]
19:11:22 [DanC_lap]
tantek, you like to archives, index, search. some people don't. though yes, those tasks can be delgated to the machine
19:11:30 [soonho]
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19:11:30 [tantek]
caribou - some might characterize such "tone" as "emotional noise" as well.
19:11:32 [factoryjoe]
"release early, release often" FTW
19:11:39 [sniffles]
Yves: i don't think that's always a given :)
19:11:45 [DanC_lap]
sorry, _I_ like to archive, index, search.
19:11:49 [DanC_lap]
I presume you do too.
19:11:51 [tantek]
if you cannot archive, index, search, then you are doomed to repeat the same conversations over and over
19:11:53 [ChrisWilson]
tantek, emotional noise is rarely noise.
19:12:11 [DanC_lap]
"doomed"? repeating stories is the way group memory has been preserved since pre-history
19:12:13 [tantek]
= waste time at best, go in circles at worst
19:12:14 [molly]
emotional noise, from one who makes a lot of it
19:12:21 [shepazu]
I think you need to archive, index, and search... why isn't anyone talking about this topic?
19:12:22 [molly]
often extends from passion and frustration
19:12:24 [Yves]
sniffles: suivre une teleconference en anglais a 23h est plus dur que de suivre des conversations sur irc a la meme heure :)
19:12:28 [karl]
tantek: what you are exactly doing now, repeat the same thing over and over ;) give me this URI
19:12:28 [DanC_lap]
"waste" time telling stories? I don't think so. not always.
19:12:28 [ChrisWilson]
Or more to the point, a loud banging noise when you're driving your car is something to pull over and look under the hood about.
19:12:31 [tantek]
DanC, I prefer to paste a URL to a story than the story itself.
19:12:36 [MikeSmith]
amen to making introductory/tutorial docs for specs
19:12:42 [janet]
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19:12:45 [Yves]
(now if I spoke french instead of typing it, it would have been worse for most people ;) )
19:12:45 [Bert]
Most people don't have that much conversation anyway. Depriving them of the ability to repaeat themselves is cruel :-)
19:12:54 [DanC_lap]
myth of reusable content. re-purposing stories, and re-telling them, is part of humanity. a big part.
19:12:54 [MikeSmith]
but not to the word "primer"
19:12:59 [molly]
Bert :D
19:13:00 [raman]
only way I understood xml schema was by reading David F's schema primer, and I'm no novice ...
19:13:02 [justin]
MikeSmith: i like introductory docs just not in the TR format
19:13:16 [factoryjoe]
the w3c is kind of like nasa -- doing cool and pretty important stuff, but the outer membrane around the organization is not porous and is hostile to the uninitiated
19:13:20 [rigo]
Bert: :-))
19:13:29 [molly]
Daniel Glazman is up btw
19:13:29 [MikeSmith]
word "primer" kind of goes hand-in-hand with the word "schoolmarm"
19:13:37 [molly]
for those listening in
19:13:38 [sniffles]
Yves: c'est quandmême difficile pour une anglophone :P
19:13:46 [charlton]
pr-i-mer, prehmer. tomeyto, tomahto
19:13:54 [MikeSmith]
justin - aye
19:14:06 [Hixie]
19:14:09 [Hixie]
harsh words, dom
19:14:14 [MikeSmith]
19:14:14 [rigo]
factoryjoe, would you like to let the scriptkiddies program the rocket that you take to the moon?
19:14:37 [Kai]
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19:14:38 [DanC_lap]
(I wanna take the mic and ask for to be projected and assigned to everybody for reading ;-)
19:14:40 [raman]
question is DOM, is it also getting as well ignored as public-html;-)
19:14:41 [Yves]
sniffles :)
19:14:43 [MikeSmith]
19:14:43 [charlton]
rigo same result, less time
19:14:45 [IanJ]
Speaking of Nasa:
19:14:47 [IanJ]
19:14:51 [IanJ]
"Web Standards to the Rescue"
19:15:03 [Kai]
19:15:04 [fsasaki]
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19:15:07 [molly]
IanJ - that site is mind-blowing
19:15:08 [factoryjoe]
i would appreciate their input and especially be interested in recruiting the next generation to participate in its future
19:15:11 [Yves]
ann ^
19:15:16 [judy]
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19:15:27 [factoryjoe]
if my attitude is that everyone outside is a bunch of scriptkiddies, sorry, but they'll team up with richard branson
19:15:29 [IanJ]
Molly, I've not looked closely. Are they on target or off?
19:15:43 [sniffles]
actually in working with people who are not native english speakers, it's not always true that they would feel comfortable contributing to open lists
19:15:48 [pbaggia]
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19:15:52 [molly]
they have the right attitude, if not all the right details
19:16:00 [cla]
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19:16:01 [rigo]
factoryjoe, to listen does not need open WGs, it needs outreach and open ears
19:16:04 [IanJ]
ok. I see first link to
19:16:09 [kenny]
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19:16:19 [Yves]
sniffles: yes, using english is a barrier, but spoken english is a much higher barrier than written english
19:16:20 [shepazu]
I wonder if there should be a third classification for openness... Open, Closed, and Open Technical
19:16:32 [factoryjoe]
open != transparent
19:16:32 [karl]
19:16:33 [charlton]
nice one molly
19:16:35 [molly]
what's powerful about that site, at least for advocates/evangelists, is that it is extremely valuable in the "selling" of standards
19:16:45 [factoryjoe]
open == transparent + agency
19:16:57 [hal_]
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19:16:58 [raman]
ref: BBC:Yes-Minister -- the civil service hides things from the Minister by flooding him with lots of red boxes.
19:17:08 [molly]
factoryjoe just because something is transparent and you can see through it doesn't mean that what you're seeing is true.
19:17:17 [DanC_lap]
3 classifications isn't going to cover the space of fractal possibilities. but yes, when the Hypertext CG discussed it, we found 3 or 4 patterns; I don't know if I got around to putting them into the esw wiki. :-/
19:17:18 [gsnedders]
who's now speaking?
19:17:19 [sniffles]
Yves: unlike French? ;) mostly i was trying to say that many non-native speakers are shy to post in a public space in case they are misunderstood
19:17:30 [Hideki]
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19:17:30 [raman]
If you could see through everything you would see nothing.
19:17:32 [sniffles]
or they feel their language capabilities aren't up to par
19:17:44 [sniffles]
molly: +1
19:17:47 [Hideki]
19:18:16 [hsivonen]
sniffles: they need to get over their embarrassment
19:18:25 [factoryjoe]
truth and trust are somewhat orthagonal
19:18:45 [Yves]
sniffles: well english for non-native english speakers, s/english/whatever language people are forced to work with/ . It's not only about being misunderstood, it may also be about not sounding stupid in public
19:18:45 [molly]
henri - I think that could be misconstrued as a socially inaccurate statement
19:18:48 [sniffles]
hsivonen: i guess it'd be like all of us trying to talk in another language we're not so familiar with :) it's not about embarrassment
19:18:55 [factoryjoe]
opaqueness doesn't guarantee trueness either
19:18:56 [molly]
it's not always embarassment
19:19:00 [sniffles]
exactly what i'm saying, Yves
19:19:02 [karl]
trust is a delegation mechanism
19:19:04 [sniffles]
so we agree :D
19:19:05 [hsivonen]
sniffles: everyone writing their own language does not scale
19:19:06 [Yves]
hsivonen; this is mostly a cultural issue
19:19:29 [sniffles]
when is the BabelFish WG happening?
19:19:31 [Yves]
sniffles yes :)
19:19:32 [olivier]
some live blogging of this session at
19:19:41 [KevinLawver]
Steve Zilles from Adobe is asking the current question.
19:20:07 [holly_]
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19:20:29 [fantasai]
19:20:36 [DanC_lap]
re traffic on www-html, it's turning a corner; Anne told the story well... "The W3C HTML WG is a lot less active these days than in the beginning. ... "
19:20:44 [Kai_]
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19:21:00 [DanC_lap]
the "coctail party" phase is perhaps wrapping up. I'm not sure what's a good metaphor for the next phase.
19:21:11 [myakura]
s/www-html/public-html/ ?
19:21:19 [DanC_lap]
sorry, right, public-html
19:21:21 [raman]
Dan, unclear if it's turning a corner, or sufficiently many people have been turned away.
19:21:39 [KevinLawver]
Not to be completely off-topic, but is there a werewolf game going on tonight?
19:21:41 [DanC_lap]
each of us chooses how to see things.
19:22:00 [holly__]
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19:22:02 [gregt]
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19:22:07 [tantek]
Paul Cotton: "We have to moving the errata process out into the open as much as possible"
19:22:10 [IanJ]
Paul Cotton: Handle errata in public.
19:22:16 [molly]
DanC - back to our individual real worlds
19:22:17 [molly]
19:22:17 [Norm]
Like Ken said, eventually you get down to a core group that actually does the work
19:22:21 [tantek]
Paul Cotton ++
19:22:43 [karl]
19:22:50 [r12a]
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19:23:00 [s-mon]
public-html is significantly less busy the last three months. sept/576 posts, oct/398 posts, nov/113 posts so far. before spetember, > 1000 popsts a month.
19:23:02 [MikeSmith]
Tex Texin at the mike
19:23:03 [molly]
the word I like is authenticity
19:23:05 [karl]
I have secretly unsubscribed people to diminish my work load. - kidding
19:23:10 [dom]
re werewolf game, it's always possible to set one up if enough people are interested, KevinLawver
19:23:18 [hal_]
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19:23:26 [dom]
I'm happy to "chair" one provided with enough players :)
19:23:30 [Danny]
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19:23:50 [DanC_lap]
transparency and accountability. see also and TAMI
19:23:53 [karl]
dom: will it be an open group game?
19:23:57 [KevinLawver]
dom, I'm in.
19:24:02 [karl]
19:24:11 [karl]
dom: will it be an open real world group game?
19:24:18 [MikeSmith]
mob rule and not engaging the international community
19:24:19 [couderk1]
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19:24:26 [IanJ]
Tex: Open does not imply inclusion. Issues: language barriers, not reaching communities you need to reach.
19:24:29 [Markus]
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19:24:30 [factoryjoe]
this is a good point
19:24:36 [factoryjoe]
for example
19:24:39 [sniffles]
19:24:42 [hober]
Sometimes I think public-html actually *is* a werewolf game
19:24:43 [sniffles]
great point
19:24:47 [factoryjoe]
the ajax experience conference had an "open call" for papers
19:25:02 [factoryjoe]
and *somehow* ended up with 4 minority speakers out of 53 or something
19:25:22 [maxf]
if public-html is a werewolf game, then I'm a villager ;)
19:25:26 [KevinLawver]
How does the W3C keep up with translations then, and who's responsibility is it to localize specs?
19:25:27 [factoryjoe]
open often leads to monocultures if you don't work to enculturate an appreciation for diversity
19:25:36 [tantek]
Ian Hickson notes Polish posts on WhatWG blog.
19:25:36 [molly]
factoryjoe - the one I spoke at I was one of two women and one of three "minorities"
19:25:36 [ChrisWilson]
well, factoryjoe, that's definitely a minority. :P
19:25:49 [factoryjoe]
molly: yes, that one
19:26:03 [factoryjoe]
i guess the increased the diversity quotient 20% if they added one more
19:26:12 [s-mon]
dorcahrd, i was thinking that.
19:26:15 [s-mon]
19:26:17 [MikeSmith]
waiting for PHB's question ...
19:26:27 [CharlieWiecha]
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19:26:29 [karl]
christophe ducamp++ for translating into french
19:26:34 [MikeSmith]
wonder if he heard the "short" part
19:26:47 [tantek]
more open = more translations.
19:26:52 [molly]
MikeSmith: he's verbose
19:26:57 [tantek]
= more access to more people worldwide
19:27:07 [KevinLawver]
MikeSmith - I think you missed the "corporate spokesperson" part of his intro. He's paid not to keep it short. ;)
19:27:09 [MikeSmith]
19:27:12 [ChrisWilson]
tantek, isn't that more translations = more open?
19:27:19 [molly]
tantek ideally that's true. on the other hand, look to the challenges that WaSP has had with that
19:27:28 [molly]
Sniffles can certainly speak to that issue
19:27:31 [KevinLawver]
Poulet or the huevo?
19:27:39 [tantek]
molly, that's because WaSP held too tight a control
19:27:42 [rigo]
tantek, so lets hire the EU Commission translation service just for one week
19:27:44 [caribou]
Specification translations are done by volunteers
19:27:46 [tantek]
who could edit what etc.
19:27:55 [hsivonen]
really people need language education so that they can communicate in English
19:27:57 [sniffles]
you have an issue with maintaining changes when you translate
19:28:06 [rigo]
tantek, would drain the budget of W3C for 2 years
19:28:09 [karl]
plus the fact that spec -> translation -> people doesn't mean that feedback is coming back in a language easy to understand
19:28:09 [sniffles]
and some times it also has to do with how english is written
19:28:25 [tantek]
rigo - not sure how you conclude that
19:28:33 [shepazu]
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19:28:34 [karl] example
19:28:39 [caribou]
19:28:41 [molly]
again, when it's a voluntary effort, too, you have the need for editorial backup for accuracy
19:28:47 [hsivonen]
translation is no substitute for learning the interoperable language
19:28:49 [caribou]
(list for coordination)
19:28:51 [molly]
just "making" a translation isn't sufficient
19:28:58 [tantek]
molly, really? Wikipedia seems to do "ok"
19:29:05 [molly]
making it sensible means being sensitive to cultural and linguistic variegations
19:29:13 [Vangelis_Karkalet]
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19:29:16 [rigo]
....and they have really tried hard to have translation into the 25 languages used with _lots_ of money
19:29:20 [factoryjoe]
vendors == lobbyists?
19:29:28 [tantek]
molly, sounds like you are sacrificing the 80 for the 20.
19:29:30 [John_Boyer]
access to 'private' conversations is by far not the only benefit of membership
19:29:40 [molly]
Tantek quite the opposite
19:29:41 [Liam]
it's about when "mediocre" is OK again.
19:29:48 [karl]
hsivonen: scary real world you are proposing. Everyone with the same clothes, everyone with same car, everyone with the same idea. Everything is a lot more interoperable suddenly
19:29:56 [arun]
IPR question on the floor.
19:29:57 [raman]
may be membership shouldn't cost so much;-) Hixie pointed out that he ran whatwg on a shoestring
19:29:58 [John_Boyer]
the commitment to membership naturally cultivates subject matter experts in technical areas that have proven busines value to one's company
19:30:00 [mjs]
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19:30:09 [ChrisWilson]
karl - and all with a microsoft logo.
19:30:10 [molly]
thank you Karl ++
19:30:10 [ChrisWilson]
19:30:12 [hal_]
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19:30:14 [karl]
19:30:26 [John_Boyer]
membership costs a lot less for smaller companies (which is my own heritage even if not my current situation)
19:30:27 [shepazu]
the SVG WG is looking at setting up a test program of a Japanese-specific (and maybe Korean and Chinese equivalents) local focus group
19:30:35 [sniffles]
tantek: you might notice that wikipedia does not have straight translations of everything
19:30:52 [tantek]
sniffles, of course it doesn't. that's why i said "ok"
19:30:56 [hsivonen]
karl, well we are having this discussion in English as opposed to Finnish or French
19:31:03 [tantek]
some translations > no translations due to editorial paranoia
19:31:21 [ChrisWilson]
r12a, as the most multilingual person I know, have you ever found one worth a damn?
19:31:22 [molly]
John, how about independents like myself? This trip is costing me a fortune, but here I am because the value of education and relationship and community is more than worth it
19:31:23 [John_Boyer]
Back to subject matter experts, when you sit in a working group, you learn stuff from other experts that inherently gives you an advantage.
19:31:27 [karl]
hsivonen: yes but not sure we understand each other ;)
19:31:40 [sniffles]
tantek: well, fair enough
19:31:44 [John_Boyer]
Yes, molly, it is worth it. Well said.
19:32:05 [chaals]
karl, indeed
19:32:35 [molly]
I'm not so sure I'd call it editorial paranoia
19:32:36 [John_Boyer]
Also, in atttending the working group, you are there to represent the set of requirements that you know about from your own marketspace context.
19:32:40 [molly]
one poor cultural mistake
19:32:42 [mjs]
Apple has weird issues about public statements and no one's given me static for posting publicly on standards-related mailing lists
19:32:45 [molly]
can alienate an entire culture!
19:32:47 [dsr]
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19:32:52 [tantek]
sniffles, in fact, it seems that most arguments in this forum are between folks that push "good enough" 80/20 solutions, and those who would rather not have the 80 if it means they can't have the 20 also.
19:32:53 [mjs]
if Apple's level of PR paranoia can handle it, I think any company can
19:33:01 [John_Boyer]
And you learn an incredible amount about the overlapping marketspace context that others in your general area have.
19:33:44 [chaals]
mjs, apple seems inclined to talk about HTML in the Patent-policy-free WHATWG in strong preference to the open list in the HTML-WG. Is this just a coincidence?
19:33:55 [John_Boyer]
It really makes better specs to include the perspectives of multifarious participants... as long as everyone comes to the table with the understanding that their ideas *will* be morphed by a consensus process.
19:34:07 [r12a]
chrisWilson, gist translation can sometimes help you decide what you need to read in more detail, but then it gets more complicated
19:34:11 [MikeSmith]
19:34:20 [charlton]
tantek, there are other angles to the that
19:34:28 [KevinLawver]
We need an interoperable definition of "brief"
19:34:29 [ChrisWilson]
mjs, that's because no one has gone all National Enquirer on YOU yet. :)
19:34:39 [sniffles]
tantek: that might be a bit of a binary summary :)
19:34:39 [molly]
Bert uri?
19:34:41 [mjs]
chaals: no, it's because barriers to posting on the WHATWG list are lower
19:34:49 [r12a]
国際化 = 'internationalization'
19:34:56 [mjs]
chaals: Apple is subject to the patent policy regardless of where we comment afaict
19:34:57 [tantek]
charlton the market prefers good solution iterated, rather than perfect solutions that never ship.
19:34:59 [Bert]
Sorry, molly, the translation of the URI doesn't work yet :-)
19:35:04 [charlton]
e.g. starting with 80/20 as a beta and proceeding with subsequent drops to manage that 20
19:35:08 [charlton]
agreed, tantek
19:35:09 [ChrisWilson]
mjs whaaaa?
19:35:14 [mjs]
chaals: if it's in the spec, it's under the patent policy
19:35:15 [aaronlev]
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19:35:15 [MikeSmith]
KevinLawver - we need an enforcer
19:35:18 [molly]
Bert ha!
19:35:22 [mjs]
since we are members of the working group
19:35:30 [dom]
19:35:31 [charlton]
some vendors are happy with 80/20 without ever addressing the 20
19:35:44 [Steven]
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19:35:44 [mjs]
the patent policy has no provision for where the idea came from
19:36:05 [mjs]
Apple is subject to the patent policy even for Apple-patended ideas suggested for the spec by someone who has no Apple affiliation
19:36:06 [KevinLawver]
Dr. Hixenstein
19:36:14 [KevinLawver]
You've created a MONSTER!!
19:36:26 [janet]
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19:36:28 [mjs]
(feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but that is my best understanding of the patent policy)
19:36:41 [molly]
"say a prayer for the HTML WG"
19:36:44 [dom]
I agree with your reading, mjs
19:36:45 [molly]
19:36:47 [kenny]
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19:36:49 [molly]
I'm prayin for you Chris
19:37:12 [ChrisWilson]
mjs, I know that - I was wondering about your statement that the bar is lower to communicate on the whatwg list
19:37:29 [gsnedders]
ChrisWilson: I was going to send you an email about what I was told at school yesterday having got into a discussion about religion: "You're Geoffrey. You're not allowed to have an opinion."
19:37:39 [mjs]
ChrisWilson: no need for additional people to ask Apple's AC Rep to make a w3c account and add the person to the HTML WG
19:37:45 [plinss]
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19:37:46 [gsnedders]
ChrisWilson: sometimes it feels like that for you: "You work for MS. You're not allowed to have an opinion."
19:37:53 [mauro]
19:37:53 [mjs]
ChrisWilson: lots of Apple folks are on the whatwg list but not members of the HTML WG
19:37:54 [mauro]
Session 6: URI-Based Extensibility: Benefits, Deviations, Lessons-Learned
19:37:57 [chaals]
I agree with the reading too. I am glad to hear that we agree.
19:38:03 [Dowan]
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19:38:10 [anne]
this will be interesting
19:38:20 [gsnedders]
what is "this?"
19:38:21 [molly]
Tim, Dan, Ian and David on stage
19:38:26 [gsnedders]
I heard the names, but we got nothing more
19:38:28 [dom]
I wonder if the "nominating someone" part of our patent policy system should be made easier
19:38:29 [shepazu]
I think that the openness of the HTML WG might not have been more smooth if it had started in W3C, rather than having a huge following already suddenly jumping into the fray
19:38:31 [molly]
and chris
19:38:39 [mauro]
-> Session 6
19:38:49 [dom]
i.e. making it possible for an AC Rep to say "allow anyone from my org to join any group where we've made the PP commitment"
19:38:55 [Vangelis]
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19:38:56 [shepazu]
no, wait... strike that, reverse it
19:39:14 [raman]
company lawyers will not be happy with that for any company.
19:39:14 [shepazu]
the openness of the HTML WG would have been more smooth if it had started in W3C, rather than having a huge following already suddenly jumping into the fray
19:39:16 [glazou]
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19:39:40 [charlton]
openness + consistency = greater level of moderation>
19:39:41 [matt]
19:39:46 [matt]
glazou++ even
19:39:53 [charlton]
19:39:56 [PGrosso]
See for this agenda item description
19:39:57 [gsnedders]
looks like the only talk I'll have to miss is the final session
19:39:57 [ArtB]
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19:40:07 [anne]
gsnedders, URI-based extensibility
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19:40:11 [molly]
Dan and Tim are standing and stretching
19:40:16 [molly]
Simon Says everyone!
19:40:19 [anne]
as far as I can tell
19:40:23 [gsnedders]
anne: yeah, I looked seeming the URI has gone around
19:40:24 [mofoghlu]
glazou ++ very good session
19:40:33 [marie]
yes, +1 glazou!
19:40:34 [raman]
hope that doesn't mean that uri-based extensibility is a stretch ...
19:40:50 [tantek]
raman, it is far more than a stretch ;)
19:40:50 [Bert]
19:40:51 [molly]
very well done, Daniel. Bravo!
19:40:56 [anne]
19:40:57 [mikko_honkala]
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19:41:03 [matt]
Don't forget to vote for the wild card Lightning Talk: -- Once this session is over the next lightning rounds begin, at the end of that we're going forward with whoever wins!
19:41:31 [raman]
URIs stretch --- they're long ugly unspeakable strings ...
19:41:51 [jallan]
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19:41:55 [sniffles]
yay glazou
19:42:22 [gsnedders]
who is speaking?
19:42:25 [mikko_honkala_]
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19:42:26 [matt]
Currently leading the pack is: "What comes after Web 2.0?" by T.V. Raman
19:42:32 [PGrosso]
David Orchard is speaking
19:42:33 [matt]
David Orchard from BEA
19:42:41 [raman]
following your nose on the Web quickly goes bad --- either you end up with a bloody nose or .... much worse ...
19:42:48 [Noah]
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19:43:20 [KevinLawver]
Nooooo, I love the profile attribute!!
19:43:30 [chibao]
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19:43:36 [Lachy]
the profile attribute is effectively useless in practice
19:43:47 [dom]
19:43:56 [dom]
GRDDL is built on top of the profile attribute
19:43:58 [raman]
effectively ... in practice .. you forgot to add real-world;-)
19:44:05 [Ralph]
if someone knows where David's slides are, I can project them from back here
19:44:16 [Lachy]
grddle is over-engineered
19:44:19 [gsnedders]
dom: in the real world, too many people leave it out already. impls have to ignore it.
19:44:20 [KevinLawver]
I love the potential of the profile attribute, maybe not the practice.
19:44:27 [tantek]
re: XFN
19:44:29 [tantek]
19:44:31 [tantek]
19:44:34 [tantek]
ssee step 3
19:44:40 [tantek]
3Reference the XFN profile
19:44:51 [raman]
aha real-world showed up too...
19:44:59 [tantek]
I'll do my best that I can in IRC.
19:45:04 [molly]
real world Tantek!
19:45:06 [marcospod]
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19:45:13 [raman]
19:45:24 [charlton]
the real, real world (where standards exist)
19:45:27 [tantek]
microformats have committed to having public URLs for profiles for all microformats
19:45:43 [molly]
I love taking a dead horse and beating it to a pulp.
19:45:45 [glazou]
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19:45:46 [tantek]
whether they *matter* is another issue
19:45:50 [dom]
I'm not sure what you mean over-engineered, Lachy; either it gets used in the future, or it doesn't, but it seems a bit early to judge to me
19:45:52 [clc4tts]
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19:45:55 [molly]
by the end of the day, we will all be in another world
19:45:57 [dom]
(although I'm obviously biased)
19:46:02 [raman]
then the dead-horse has a lean profile;-) (after you've beaten it to a pulp)
19:46:07 [charlton]
good show glazou
19:46:13 [s-mon]
19:46:16 [dom]
great panel, idneed
19:46:21 [charlton]
as long as it is not lab:realworld, molly
19:46:34 [Ralph]
anyone know where David's slides are?
19:46:37 [KevinLawver]
Or MTV's Real World.
19:46:41 [Ralph]
(other than on his laptop)
19:46:58 [raman]
question is: are his slides uri-addressable
19:47:00 [molly]
Ralph, if they're not linked from the agenda they aren't up yet
19:47:00 [cblouch_]
I'm living vicariously through my own virtual real world.
19:47:44 [Ralph]
19:47:50 [molly]
slides not up yet, no
19:48:08 [KevinLawver]
I built a whole product around a microformat with a profile - and it worked quite well. Just because people aren't using it ALL over the "real world web" doesn't mean it's not valuable.
19:48:15 [Liam]
there were seo pepole saying you get more money for dc.title
19:48:26 [sniffles]
actually, quite a lot of the real world doesn't have access to the web ...
19:49:38 [raman]
19:49:47 [sniffles]
19:50:00 [sniffles]
r3@l w0rld?
19:50:02 [KevinLawver]
To paraphrase Dan, "You'll have to pry my profile attribute from my cold dead fingers" a la Charlton Heston.
19:50:20 [shepazu]
ChrisWilson should follow that comment by implementing namespaces in IE
19:50:39 [Julian]
I think the "if it works anyway" is the actual problem.
19:50:42 [dom]
s/<raman> s/<raman> /
19:50:42 [dsr]
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19:50:53 [MikeSmith]
CharltonHeston++ for Moses and Planet of the Apes (but not for yee-hah gun-nut phase)
19:50:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate dom
19:51:10 [molly]
loves the word "disambiguate"
19:51:12 [anne]
I didn't know that about namespace support in text/html from IE
19:51:20 [anne]
That it's not there, basically :)
19:51:21 [marcos]
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19:51:22 [Mark]
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19:51:39 [ChrisL]
love ChrisWs description of a "bastardized namespace". Also known as "magic prefixes"
19:51:51 [charlton]
strong accent? now, now...
19:51:52 [raman]
Dom, apologies for that global substitute I ended up executing
19:52:00 [anne]
ChrisL, yeah
19:52:28 [clc4tts]
captioning was imaginarytime anyway
19:52:29 [raman]
a good reflection of the day;-)
19:52:45 [molly]
raman welcome to my imaginary captioned world?
19:53:00 [raman]
incidentally charles pointed out to me that the transcription had earlier called a spec speck ...
19:53:09 [molly]
is it real if it's imaginary but captioned?
19:53:17 [DanC_lap]
if you can't understand timbl's voice, read
19:53:34 [raman]
fortran programmers believed that god was real unless declared an integer ...
19:53:40 [KevinLawver]
A good explanation of profile:
19:54:20 [molly]
so if god = # then !god?
19:54:29 [Hixie]
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19:54:33 [charlton]
captioned text needs some work
19:54:47 [charlton]
!god = babel fish
19:54:51 [IanJ]
TBL: To interoperate with smaller communities, you need to provide hooks.
19:54:55 [molly]
so does my syntax, but that's besides the point. I'm so glad that someone (Tim) speaks faster than I do
19:54:58 [sandro]
timbl: it's smaller communities ( eg not all-HTML) where you need namespace extensibility.
19:55:15 [raman]
sounds like the existence proof out of HHG ... the one after which man proves as a follow-up that black is white and gets killed on the next zebra crossing
19:55:40 [DanC_lap]
(note to self... URIs are like real estate... my back yard is 0% of the global real-estate market ...)
19:56:03 [gsnedders]
that David speaking?
19:56:10 [raman]
but we cant have one rule for smaller communites and a different incompatible one for bigger communities; if we do, the smaller communities will be doomed to be small
19:56:20 [IanJ]
DanC_lap: Support in dreamweaver for "profile" please!
19:56:25 [ChrisL]
yes, thats David Orchard speaking
19:56:42 [tantek]
someone asked for profile attribute support in Dreamweaver
19:56:56 [ChrisL]
19:56:58 [dsinger]
URIs are a temporal artifact; when a URI is http://<domain>/ it is implicitly scoped by the owner of the domain at teh time the URI was made, but neither that owner nor the time are explicit in it
19:56:59 [LeeF]
DanC asked for it
19:57:09 [molly]
Dan Connolly asked
19:57:09 [MSM]
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19:57:15 [tantek]
namespaces in *code* is NOT the same as namespaces in *data*
19:57:24 [raman]
when Microsoft wrote jaa they put their code in is morgan stanley;-)
19:57:26 [KevinLawver]
It's because java programmers like type.
19:57:33 [sandro]
DanC: is it a bug or a feature that java package names are based on DNS names?
19:57:35 [KevinLawver]
like TO type.
19:57:36 [tantek]
code *needs* to be silo'd. data, when silo'd leads to Babel, and non-interoperability.
19:57:44 [hsivonen]
it is a bug
19:58:01 [sandro]
DanC: it's a bug when you have a merger; it's a feature when people don't play nice.
19:58:01 [hsivonen]
code outlives organizations
19:58:03 [Kai]
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19:58:25 [molly]
ooh Chris said "disambiguation" again
19:58:26 [KevinLawver]
"It's a bug inside a feature"
19:58:28 [tantek]
data outlives code
19:58:35 [tantek]
code turns over all the time
19:58:37 [KevinLawver]
A bug in a yummy pastry shell.
19:58:46 [raman]
if data outlives code it's even more important to qualify it.
19:58:57 [ChrisL]
a bug wrapped up in a feature enclosed in a conundrum
19:59:05 [tantek]
no it is even more important to agree on the meaning of data
19:59:08 [raman]
sounds like a sausage Chris;-)
19:59:09 [dsinger]
you can never outlive (or completely eradicate) a design format choice; some files will haunt you for ever
19:59:12 [tantek]
not qualify it
19:59:17 [JerryCarter]
Molly, it's quite common in speech for sorting through possibilities. As in does 'jaguar' refer to the large feline, the car, or the Apple operating system?
19:59:32 [molly]
ChrisL: The Red Queen syndrome applies
19:59:46 [molly]
JerryCarter that's called "Semantics"
19:59:52 [Andrew]
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20:00:01 [anne]
Hixie, what mechanism did you propose?
20:00:06 [IanJ]
TBL: The thing I like about web architecture is that I can follow my nose.
20:00:17 [hal_]
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20:00:19 [anne]
the captioners missed it too
20:00:42 [raman]
IanJ, but the following your nose sadly doesn't work on the Web. it's got a broken nose ...
20:00:43 [IanJ]
I believe Hixie found compelling the use of dns bits for disambiguation rather than full URIs, since shorter to write.
20:01:01 [marcos]
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20:01:28 [raman]
part of the problem with long URIs is that the unique bits are at the end, and it's really bad from a human interface point of view.
20:01:35 [marcos]
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20:01:44 [amit]
20:01:52 [Hixie]
IanJ, right, exactly
20:02:08 [Hixie]
come to think of it, name="dc.title" is similar
20:02:10 [ChrisL]
raman, we couldsolve that by typing the URI just once, and associating a short user-specified token to stand in its place and using that token as a prefix
20:02:13 [Hixie]
the "dc" disambiguates it
20:02:17 [charlton]
do the URIs need to be human-readable, raman?
20:02:17 [ChrisL]
... no wait, we already did that
20:02:21 [raman]
The only reason I can write xml ns decls correctly is because emacspeak has a pronunciation dictionary that knows to pronounce the namespace URIs as shortnames ... if I find that useful, I assert it's valuable for more than just me.
20:02:24 [charlton]
or nicely readable
20:02:31 [karl]
TBL: giving pointers, give context to things
20:02:33 [charlton]
they are human-readable
20:02:38 [mjs]
the problem with the URIs is that they are a magic string you have to look up to cut and paste every time
20:02:44 [Steven]
dc=Dan Connolly, right ChrisL?
20:02:46 [mjs]
much like doctype strings
20:02:52 [JerryCarter]
that's what google is for (so you don't need to remember any URIs)
20:02:55 [Hixie]
mjs: they're also long and hard to type
20:03:00 [mjs]
it's nice to be able to write a document without having to look up magic strings
20:03:04 [charlton]
and tinyurl
20:03:04 [Andrew]
and meant for machines, not poeple
20:03:07 [charlton]
and others
20:03:09 [ChrisL]
steven, absolutely. dublin core needs to find a different name
20:03:14 [mjs]
Hixie: yeah, that's the cause of the problem I'm reporting
20:03:18 [mjs]
hard to type, hard to remember
20:03:22 [Hixie]
20:03:29 [charlton]
meant for machines
20:03:30 [mdean]
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20:03:31 [MichaelC]
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20:03:38 [raman]
this is why URNs were proposed in the mid-90's.
20:03:41 [hal_]
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20:03:44 [hsivonen]
I have to copy and paste ns URIs way too often. lots of wasted time
20:03:50 [anne]
we're not talking OS-level though
20:03:56 [PHB]
It is one reason URNs were proposed Raman
20:04:01 [tlr]
human-readable strings are difficult.
20:04:05 [PHB]
thats why they are such a problem
20:04:06 [dsinger]
urls are easier to handle than osi labels (such as used in snmp) which are strings of numbers separated by dots
20:04:24 [raman]
php, we ended up saying the same things simultaneously. You must be another great mind;-)
20:04:38 [dom]
20:04:45 [ChrisL]
20:04:50 [charlton]
illustrative of how URIs can be aliased
20:05:00 [charlton]
nowhere near perfect
20:05:15 [charlton]
ideally s/b something logically recognisable
20:05:16 [j1]
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20:06:39 [dsinger]
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20:06:42 [timbl_]
2. If microformats are developed without URIs which my code can look up and learn about at runtime, (microformat developers don't use GRDDL profiles) do I have to add new code to a client every time a new microformt is OK'd by Tantek? :-)
20:06:46 [KevinLawver]
That's why microformats are supposed to have profiles. XMDP is a machine-parsable version of the microformat.
20:06:56 [dsr]
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20:06:58 [karl]
20:06:59 [charlton]
lol tantek
20:07:04 [amy]
20:07:07 [raman]
humans disambiguate by context. software doesn't, and especially hard at a global scale.
20:07:10 [dom]
s/me s/'s//
20:07:15 [DanC_lap]
Q: doe microformats developers have to stand by for broadcasts from and update when they come out?
20:07:21 [dsr]
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20:07:25 [factoryjoe]
we're actually working on profiles now...
20:07:25 [KevinLawver]
No, you shouldn't have to write new code. You should look for a profile. If there's no profile, you can ignore it.
20:07:26 [IanJ]
Raman, good point.
20:07:26 [charlton]
good show dom, excellent example
20:07:31 [tantek]
two options perhaps:
20:07:33 [shepazu]
dom, and the shortname is also shared with a technology... among other things
20:07:35 [factoryjoe]
because of SREG and attribute exchange types in OpenID
20:07:47 [ChrisL]
I'm reminded of the television URI scheme proposal. tv:abs obviously stands for one particular channel, right?... australian boroadcast corporation, perhaps
20:07:51 [tantek]
1. decide to support a snapshot static set of microformats. apps are doing this now.
20:07:52 [factoryjoe]
see this:
20:07:59 [IanJ]
So, following Raman's comment: URIs are good for machines and antisocial for people.
20:08:00 [ChrisL]
20:08:07 [charlton]
my name is shared by two other persons on the planet, but so many cannot manage it that i'm forced to 'tiny' it
20:08:10 [IanJ]
Which is why people say URIs are meant to be parsed but not heard, or something like that.
20:08:12 [factoryjoe]
20:08:20 [charlton]
+1 IanJ
20:08:22 [matto]
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20:08:23 [tantek]
2. only support content with explicit profile declarations, and follow-your-nose with those URLs, and only look for those microformats defined in those URLs.
20:08:40 [tantek]
20:08:46 [IanJ]
DC: My problem is that microformats community has claimed eminent domain on <some space>
20:08:49 [IanJ]
20:08:51 [sniffles]
ok, when you're a phone talking to your mum, and want to tell her how to your fav blogpost, how do you tell her?
20:08:52 [JerryCarter]
URIs are like directions. They tell you how to get there, but it's not clear where you're going to end up until you've reached the destination.
20:08:54 [KevinLawver]
DanC, if you want to use it, use a different profile URI.
20:08:57 [IanJ]
DC: I think it's cost effective to put a profile at the top.
20:08:58 [tantek]
very unlikely that anyone else will use "vevent"
20:09:18 [dom]
vevent means "pretty" in polish
20:09:18 [tantek]
root class names are chosen deliberately like that
20:09:21 [dom]
20:09:25 [dom]
but it could have been
20:09:44 [KevinLawver]
If we didn't do HTML classes, how would people learn it? ;)
20:09:56 [ChrisL]
tantek, lets consider audio events, video events - but video event is kinda long and has a space - how about aevent, vevent ...
20:10:10 [Lachy]
regardless of whether microformats are declared with profile URIs or not, new code would have to be added to support them. I don't see how that issue is at all relevant to the question of whether or not profile URIs are useful
20:10:17 [IleanaLeuca]
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20:10:38 [dom]
Lachy, with a profile URI, software could use GRDDL to process microformatted pages
20:11:08 [marcos]
HTML pages?
20:11:11 [factoryjoe]
having some semantics are better than none
20:11:11 [kenny]
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20:11:34 [burn]
big list in the sky is what IANA provides
20:11:41 [factoryjoe]
20:11:45 [raman]
The world wide Web works because its underlying design doesn't prevent others from doing things that one person may not like. I've heard the refrain "anything I dont like is `over-engineered'" too often today
20:11:52 [KevinLawver]
The wiki doesn't have to be. The profile is supposed to be how you follow your nose to the meanings.
20:11:52 [Hideki]
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20:11:54 [MikeSmith]
I think what DanC was just mentioning ain't actually in the HTML5 spec anymore
20:12:06 [MikeSmith]
what Hixie just said
20:12:10 [Lachy]
dom, generic processing based on URIs isn't really useful. Apps need to have internal knowledge of a format to do anything at all useful with them. The URI, if used, is effectively just an opaque identifier string. It doesn't matter where it points
20:12:19 [marcos]
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20:12:34 [DanC_lap]
html5 has a registry of rel values but not classes, I gather
20:12:38 [factoryjoe]
tantek is on skype
20:12:42 [tantek]
what was the question?
20:12:47 [Lachy]
it used to have a registry of classes, but that was dropped
20:12:52 [glazou]
tantek, GO AHEAD
20:12:56 [glazou]
20:12:59 [DanC_lap]
20:13:00 [DanC_lap]
20:13:01 [KevinLawver]
We have multi-modal tantek!
20:13:07 [dom]
Lachy, agreed that at some point their needs to be a match between a given URI and a given processing model
20:13:07 [ChrisL]
apollo to houston, we have touchdown
20:13:08 [Steven]
[speaker/audio not clear]
20:13:13 [IanJ]
20:13:17 [Hixie]
tantek: you're breaking up too much
20:13:18 [shepazu]
20:13:19 [DanC_lap]
paste it again
20:13:20 [MikeSmith]
radio check radio check
20:13:21 [tantek]
2-3 second delay. must be the ISS.
20:13:22 [dom]
but GRDDL makes it possible not have to have as many parsers as people have ideas about microformats
20:13:23 [glazou]
ChrisL: wasn't it "Houston, we have a problem ?"
20:13:31 [timo]
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20:13:36 [karl]
Liam: lol
20:13:39 [IanJ]
Or "watson, come quickly"?
20:13:40 [tantek]
what was the question?
20:13:45 [IanJ]
20:13:47 [olivier]
20:13:47 [IanJ]
what was the question?
20:13:58 [IanJ]
20:14:03 [Julian]
fun fun fun
20:14:07 [ChrisL]
glazou yes, but thats so pass
20:14:07 [glazou]
20:14:08 [arun]
@tantek: tantek, Molly is reading your "two-point" answer to timbl's question.
20:14:08 [mofoghlu]
Or "Not now Cato"?
20:14:25 [Ralph]
if Tantek would phone us on the Zakim bridge, we'd be able to hear him just fine, please
20:14:26 [charlton]
20:14:31 [glazou]
I love the molly implementation of multimodal internet :)
20:14:40 [tantek]
you can choose which of those two you want basically
20:14:45 [tantek]
thanks timbl!
20:14:48 [Markus]
@glazou lol
20:14:59 [molly]
ooh, channeling Tantek! That was thrilling :D
20:15:05 [plh]
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20:15:07 [Julian]
So Tantek says we need to keep @profile, right?
20:15:07 [AaronGustafson]
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20:15:19 [charlton]
@Julian that is option 2
20:15:22 [DanC_lap]
did tantek's remark get into this channel? or a pointer?
20:15:34 [charlton]
they are in the channel
20:15:45 [tantek]
yes, I would prefer that we keep @profile
20:15:48 [tantek]
however, lacking that
20:15:55 [tantek]
we can work with rel="profile"
20:16:04 [molly]
it's in the channel DanC - that's where I read it from
20:16:11 [charlton]
20:16:18 [karl]
20:16:18 [charlton]
20:16:18 [charlton]
two options perhaps:
20:16:18 [charlton]
1. decide to support a snapshot static set of microformats. apps are doing this now.
20:16:18 [charlton]
2. only support content with explicit profile declarations, and follow-your-nose with those URLs, and only look for those microformats defined in those URLs.
20:16:20 [DanC_lap]
what I heard via molly was "clients should check for profile attributes before inferring stuff from microformat content" .
20:16:20 [plinss]
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20:16:20 [sandro]
-> PXFIM - general XML extensibility draft developed for RIF
20:16:22 [KevinLawver]
The answer is "create a profile"
20:16:33 [glazou]
Markus: please note the process and implementation of molly-multimodal are damn fast :)
20:16:53 [tantek]
answer: create an XMDP profile for your POSH classes
20:16:53 [KevinLawver]
And then publish that profile.
20:17:10 [charlton]
sneaker-net is fast @glazou
20:17:19 [DanC_lap]
ah; so I listened selectively and heard only tantek's 2nd point ;-)
20:17:32 [charlton]
:-) @DanC_lap
20:17:47 [tantek]
no no, that's not what happened
20:17:49 [burn]
why not IETF/IANA -- they already have a process for registries that encompasses individual through broad use registries
20:17:51 [tantek]
album:title etc. was dropped
20:17:55 [tantek]
"fn" was all you needed
20:17:58 [raman]
in fact for a while they tried to kill the title attribute.
20:18:06 [charlton]
@chaals ahm no Spanishhh, ahm Egypshhian
20:18:19 [DanC_lap]
who did PHB credit with that quote/
20:18:20 [DanC_lap]
20:18:23 [tantek]
re: the multimedia question
20:18:30 [KevinLawver]
20:18:57 [marcos]
a, what
20:19:01 [tantek]
identifier equivalence is actually insufficient. differences in granularity also cause problems.
20:19:22 [molly]
dom not an army, just a big stick to keep beating the dead horse with will be sufficient
20:19:25 [raman]
careful to make sure that folksonomy doesn't fox us into fauxonomy
20:19:25 [JerryCarter]
agreed tantek
20:19:27 [DanC_lap]
I'll take the wiki/irc process over IANA any day.
20:19:34 [PHB]
David Wheeler
20:19:35 [DanC_lap]
and I think I have experience with both
20:19:41 [JerryCarter]
I've seen the granularity problem quite a bit in GIS.
20:19:46 [PHB]
Butler Lampson attributes it to Wheeler
20:20:10 [raman]
Molly, that'll fix the horse's profile;-)
20:20:16 [tantek]
rel= what?
20:20:21 [tantek]
I couldn't hear the audio
20:20:22 [anne]
20:20:37 [anne]
I believe I already suggested they registered that value on the Wiki page
20:20:42 [tantek]
see for how to define an XMDP profile to define rel="powder"
20:20:42 [matt]
20:20:43 [karl]
20:20:47 [anne]
on the ietf-http-wg mailing list though, which may be a mistake
20:20:55 [mauro]
20:20:58 [anne]
(it was an off-topic remark)
20:21:04 [molly]
there is no contest, Chaals. You're the most popular.
20:21:12 [mauro]
break until 3:50pm
20:21:16 [dom]
vote for lightning talks!
20:21:27 [laurent]
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20:21:41 [mofoghlu]
indirection... Steve Bellovin of AT&T Labs? (
20:21:58 [Julian]
anne: would you please stop beating HTTPbis until it actually gets started properly? Thanks.
20:22:03 [sandro]
DanC_lap, Wikipedia agrees with PHB, so it must be true.
20:22:13 [Zakim]
+ +1.720.519.aahh
20:22:23 [Chris]
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20:22:52 [sniffles]
20:24:22 [Steven_]
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20:28:39 [matt]
Vote early vote often: Raman currently running away with it!
20:29:14 [matt]
(OK, it's too late to vote early and you can only vote once)
20:29:20 [matt]
Vote late, vote just once!
20:30:39 [kenny]
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20:31:27 [Enric]
Is "Session 8: Making Video a First-Class Citizen of the Web" still coming up or has it already happened?
20:31:35 [Steven_]
not yet happened
20:31:39 [Enric]
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20:35:22 [Zakim]
- +1.720.519.aahh
20:37:18 [Zakim]
+ +1.720.519.aaii
20:43:43 [Enric]
how soon until the sessions start again?
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20:48:06 [mauro]
Enric, agenda is at
20:48:19 [mauro]
we will resume in 5 mins approx.
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20:50:10 [dom]
I have posted a registration list on the BOF board for a Werewolves game tonight, for those interested (just outside of the room)
20:50:14 [youenn]
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20:50:21 [matt]
Did I mention that there's a vote going on?
20:50:26 [Steven]
20:50:32 [Steven]
What for Matt?
20:50:47 [karl]
20:50:57 [karl]
Steven: lightning talk
20:51:03 [Steven]
20:51:11 [matt]
Why thanks for asking Steven! You should vote for your favorite lightning talk:
20:51:33 [Steven]
How can I know which is my favourite until I have heard it Matt?
20:52:21 [jerome_]
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20:52:37 [karl]
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20:53:14 [amy]
werewolves BOF :)
20:53:30 [edm]
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20:53:46 [dom]
+1 re game room
20:54:00 [amy]
yeah, ,the werewolves could branch out and start killing mau players :)
20:54:02 [dom]
happy to bring down the wii if we have access to the room (which I doubt indeed)
20:54:20 [amy]
unfortunately, this room will need to be re-set tonight
20:54:27 [mauro]
20:54:28 [mauro]
Session 7: Lightning Talks
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20:55:05 [MikeSmith]
lightning talkers
20:55:12 [MikeSmith]
wonder if that is like wind talkers
20:55:30 [dom]
vote for lightning talk at
20:55:39 [PGrosso]
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20:55:42 [Norm]
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20:56:11 [anne]
AKA binary XML
20:56:15 [PHB]
Lets replace XML
20:56:32 [ddahl]
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20:57:09 [molly]
XML as a species
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20:57:20 [KevinLawver]
Let's replace it with HTML
20:57:25 [Chris]
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20:57:33 [s-mon]
quack quack.
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20:57:45 [ChrisWilson]
20:57:45 [MikeSmith]
KevinLawver, PHB - S-expressions
20:57:58 [MikeSmith]
that is how we should have done it to begin with, obviously
20:58:04 [JerryCarter]
Keep it even more simple: Whitespace. <>
20:58:07 [PHB]
XML is just S-Expressions with fat parentheses
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20:58:14 [Yves]
20:58:15 [matt]
Please start queuing up questions now!
20:58:26 [PHB]
Actually I use a personal XML markup without angle brackets
20:58:38 [PHB]
Saves a lot of time editing
20:58:45 [caribou]
EXI is not just a different tokenization
20:58:46 [vivien]
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20:58:50 [raman]
xml is God's punishment to the C programmer. They complained about the close ) in Lisp, so they got XML as their punishment; today they get to write down the name of the paren they're closing
20:59:05 [IanJ]
20:59:16 [PHB]
Indentation to denote scope
20:59:19 [ArtB]
did he say more binary formats than mobile devices? :-)
20:59:34 [PHB]
Get rid of the {} and ; from C
20:59:48 [caribou]
assembly language is great
20:59:53 [raman]
people do write } //closes while
20:59:58 [matt]
Question queues are empty...
21:00:04 [Steven]
that's what Python did, right PHB?
21:00:32 [DanC_lap]
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21:00:36 [anne]
if there's room, can mjs maybe do his animation presentation?
21:00:37 [PHB]
It did? should I use python?
21:00:39 [KevinLawver]
I think I have a question, but it's about a TV show. Can I get in line?
21:00:40 [marcos]
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21:00:46 [PHB]
Actually I think occam did it first
21:00:54 [Andrew]
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21:00:57 [matt]
Yes, any questions ta all.
21:00:58 [John_Boyer]
Caribou, assembly language is an abstraction. If assembly language is great, shouldn't you just byte the bullet and use binary?
21:01:09 [Hideki]
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21:01:15 [ChrisWilson]
hmm. I thought Douglas Crockford told me E4X was dead? :P
21:01:23 [shepazu]
"I'm still John Schneider, and now I'm going to talk about why EXI is bad."
21:01:31 [mjs]
its zombie corpse still lives
21:01:51 [matt]
I can answer questions from seasons 2-4 of Good Times KevinLawver, my lightning talk wasn't voted in though.
21:01:59 [jkirk2]
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21:02:03 [gsnedders]
ChrisWilson: re: opinions: I was going to send you an email about what I was told at school yesterday having got into a discussion about religion: "You're Geoffrey. You're not allowed to have an opinion". sometimes it feels like that for you: "You work for MS. You're not allowed to have an opinion."
21:02:13 [marie]
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21:02:47 [ChrisWilson]
gsnedders - sounds pretty familiar, yes.
21:02:55 [PHB]
Everyone is allowed to have an opinion, some people are allowed to have their own opinion
21:03:01 [Steven]
No PHB, The B programming language predated Occam
21:03:06 [matt]
Can it really be that no one has questions?!
21:03:14 [gsnedders]
PHB: according to what I was told at school, I'm not allowed an opinion.
21:03:15 [ferraiolo]
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21:03:34 [KevinLawver]
You know what else works really well on XML? jquery.
21:03:53 [ChrisWilson]
PHB. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion, and furthermore they are allowed to keep it to themselves. :)
21:03:59 [DanC_lap]
e4x looks like aaronsw's xml tramp
21:03:59 [JerryCarter]
Matt, you can always ask when the first full implementation of E4X will be available. So fare as I know there are none today.
21:04:04 [Enric]
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21:04:05 [ChrisWilson]
KevinLawver or control-f!
21:04:11 [PHB]
Steven, actually occam is a direct descendant of CPL, BCPL and B are descendants
21:04:23 [DanC_lap]
hmm... anybody know how e4x compares to xquery?
21:04:27 [fantasai]
that's really cool
21:04:28 [sniffles]
jquery even does css3 selectors
21:04:28 [PHB]
of CPL as well
21:04:28 [Steven]
No, another B programming language
21:04:50 [gsnedders]
To a lesser extent, the opinion can be seen in the HTML WG: You're view is the same as WHATWG, therefore you are infected with blindingly believing Hixie
21:05:24 [gsnedders]
Oddly enough, most of the things got into the draft from consensus, so some of us actually agree with the things in it.
21:05:26 [ChrisWilson]
oh, gsnedders, don't get me started with that, or I'll have to expound the opposing problem.
21:06:10 [molly]
suddenly has a headache "infected with blindingly believing" anyone is an example of non self-reflexive thinking
21:06:16 [gsnedders]
ChrisWilson: well, I was doing antithesis in English today :P
21:06:24 [r12a]
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21:06:27 [Lachy]
is e4x fully backward compatible with existing javascript?
21:06:40 [AaronGustafson]
jQuery even implements :contains() which CSS3 seems to have dropped (ifi I understood that conversation correctly on Monday)
21:06:42 [Hixie]
Lachy: except for comments, yes
21:06:50 [sniffles]
hey AaronGustafson
21:06:52 [Hixie]
Lachy: but it does screw up if you want <!-- --> comments in there
21:06:53 [notasausage]
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21:06:58 [anne]
does it support the internal subset?
21:07:01 [mjs]
Lachy: it needs a mode switch in mozilla I think
21:07:03 [Lachy]
21:07:10 [raman]
>isn't self reflexive?
21:07:11 [mjs]
I dunno if that's only for reason of comments like Hixie mentions
21:07:13 [anne]
and that Mozilla's support doesn't do DOM is sort of a showstopper imo
21:07:20 [Lachy]
yeah, it needs text/javascript;e4x=1
21:07:24 [karl]
talking about jQuery, John Resig was here around a few minutes ago
21:07:34 [mjs]
the interesting script comparison is how it looks when manipulating a DOM
21:07:34 [AaronGustafson]
hey sniffles
21:07:35 [ChrisWilson]
AaronGustafson! Does the train have wireless, or are you home already?
21:07:38 [AaronGustafson]
I'm on the train
21:07:42 [ferraiolo]
Does JavaScript2 include support for E4X?
21:07:43 [AaronGustafson]
I am on my phone
21:07:45 [mjs]
which I think is not currently workable in any browser
21:07:50 [AaronGustafson]
tethered to the laptop
21:08:00 [Hixie]
yeah i don't know why mozilla hasn't implemented DOM() and XML() or whatever they're called
21:08:02 [JerryCarter]
Lachy, ECMAScript 4 will include E4X natively. AFAIK, E4X can be bolted onto ECMAScript 3 without issue.
21:08:04 [Hixie]
the spec defines how it should work
21:08:04 [Philip]
anne: E4X doesn't do doctypes at all, as far as I remember
21:08:06 [mjs]
ferraiolo: the syntax is reserved but it's not planned to be mandated in ES4
21:08:11 [AaronGustafson]
I may come in and out as coverage wavers
21:08:29 [mjs]
it seems like e4x would be confusing using with elements that have a rich DOM API
21:08:30 [anne]
Philip, good
21:08:38 [molly]
ChrisWilson: Got yer sock puppet out?
21:08:44 [anne]
I believe in theory it does have DOM support
21:08:45 [anne]
21:08:47 [Lachy]
would be nice if I didn't need to use the switch to turn it on and if there were a compatible way to do <!-- --> comments, though comments aren't essential anyway
21:08:53 [dom]
I'm not supporting it
21:08:57 [anne]
I'm not sure why Mozilla didn't support it
21:09:03 [anne]
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21:09:23 [dom]
oh, I thought you were saying you believed in a theory only if it had dom's support
21:09:28 [dom]
21:09:37 [molly]
Hakon showing problems with image replacement on CSS Zen Garden
21:09:37 [ChrisWilson]
molly, i'm never without my sock puppet.
21:09:40 [Philip]
Lachy: The switch is just to enable support for comments - Mozilla does the rest of E4X in normal scripts
21:09:41 [hal_]
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21:09:51 [Lachy]
oh cool
21:10:01 [raman]
there was a W3C Web Fonts meeting at Adobe in 1996 I think. I didn't go to the meeting, but I remember going to dinner with howcome and chirsL after ...
21:10:23 [glazou]
raman: RIGHT and nothing changed
21:10:28 [molly]
raman the conversation passionately continues. I think several chairs were thrown yesterday
21:10:32 [ChrisWilson]
yeah, it was about them that I put @font-face support into IE...
21:10:52 [matt]
Everyone who wants to ask about Web Fonts should get on queue now...
21:10:56 [anne]
dom, with respect to E4X I just care about uppercase DOM
21:10:59 [KevinLawver]
I did, but glazou found it under the table and gave it back to me.
21:11:08 [shepazu]
You can use SVG Fonts in HTML+CSS
21:11:16 [karl]
take this chair in your font-face
21:11:21 [hal__]
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21:11:32 [Kai]
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21:11:39 [shepazu]
... in Opera ;)
21:11:42 [ChrisWilson]
21:11:51 [karl]
mwarrrrffff at glazkrak
21:12:03 [karl]
always known that glazou was on crack!
21:12:19 [glazou]
21:12:23 [anne]
that is CSS 2.0 not CSS 2.1
21:12:26 [Liam]
typically I want to use professionally-designed OpenType fonts that are sold commercially; there are IPR/license issues here.
21:12:35 [anne]
(there's also css3-webfonts)
21:12:46 [molly]
Liam - oh yes, that's a main point of contention, clearly
21:13:00 [matt]
Looks like TV is winning....
21:13:21 [KevinLawver]
++1 web fonts
21:13:25 [IanJ]
I am surprised Hakon didn't select text to show real text.
21:13:28 [ChrisWilson]
Liam - umm, yes, as a representative of one of the 3 font foundries in the room yesterday, that point was made.
21:13:32 [IanJ]
Not that I'm suspicious or anything...
21:13:33 [anne]
IanJ, yeah
21:13:37 [DanC_lap]
if karl and olivier and I don't do our talk today, we'll probably do it at the HTML WG meeting Thursday or Friday
21:13:57 [MikeSmith]
for trying out Webkit, there's also Nightshift ... which makes it slightly more convenient to download and install nightly Webkit builds
21:14:05 [ChrisWilson]
DanC_lap, I think you should.
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21:14:19 [MikeSmith]
21:14:22 [anne]
IanJ, works though, he demonstrated it earlier
21:14:39 [IanJ]
thanks anne. :)
21:14:47 [molly]
Charleton Barreto takes the stage
21:15:04 [Liam]
ChrisWilson: good
21:15:07 [caribou]
21:15:31 [KevinLawver]
If Charleton says Flash, I'm throwing a chair.
21:15:34 [Liam]
ChrisL and I were at TypeCon this year for a discussion on Web fonts, it was interesting.
21:16:02 [KevinLawver]
And don't think I won't. Bert is sitting right next to me. I think I could throw him a good 6-8 inches.
21:16:15 [Liam]
some of the font foundries are talking about EULA changes to accommodate this, too
21:16:17 [Lachy]
it's nice to hear yet another definition of Web 2.0
21:16:23 [molly]
Lachy hahaha
21:16:29 [shepazu]
21:16:37 [JerryCarter]
KeinLawver, <>
21:16:45 [ChrisWilson]
Liam, we've been there, done that with Embedded OpenType.
21:16:51 [Liam]
yes, I know
21:16:58 [Lachy]
I'm still waiting for Web 3.14
21:17:13 [glazou]
that's web pi
21:17:15 [rigo]
have you signed the EULA for it?
21:17:17 [klaus]
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21:17:24 [Yves]
Web Pi, going in circles
21:17:26 [gsnedders]
ah, I'm waiting for the maintenance release Web pi
21:17:31 [s-mon]
doesn't tex use version numbers based in pi?
21:17:35 [gsnedders]
should fix bugs in Web 3.14 by then
21:17:46 [marcos]
21:17:46 [s-mon]
mmm, pi.
21:17:48 [gsnedders]
No rounding needed
21:17:59 [KevinLawver]
I think I smell Air coming.
21:18:03 [ChrisWilson]
rigo, nobody reads those eula things anyway. :)
21:18:09 [shepazu]
Lachy, surely you mean Web 2.718
21:18:10 [rigo]
21:18:11 [molly]
But he hasn't said Flash yet :D
21:18:12 [karl]
web 2pi and you are eating your tail?
21:18:13 [John_Boyer]
Will it take infinitely long to fix the bugs in web pi, or is that circular logic?
21:18:32 [gsnedders]
John_Boyer: they will never be fixed totally
21:18:35 [marcos]
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21:18:39 [gsnedders]
John_Boyer: there will always be more to find
21:18:53 [dom]
the good news is that the whole of Web architecture is encoded somewhere in Pi
21:18:54 [molly]
I suggest just accepting that we're all in a real-world Möbius strip
21:18:54 [John_Boyer]
bugs will randomly show up everywhere...
21:18:56 [Lachy]
shepazu, is that Web e?
21:19:04 [shepazu]
Lachy, yes
21:19:07 [ht]
simon, lol
21:19:16 [gerald]
foo.ttf in one of hakon's slides makes me wonder if anyone here can explain these bizarre requests to W3C's site: "GET /TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd HTTP/1.1" 503 730 "file:///C:/WINDOWS/fonts/set.ttf" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322)"
21:19:31 [marcos]
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21:19:36 [gerald]
(how could set.ttf be the HTTP referrer?)
21:19:57 [caribou]
gerald, how many requests/day?
21:20:01 [plinss]
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21:20:04 [ted]
503 is deliberate btw on our part as we haven't been able to figure out what this excessive traffic is
21:20:23 [ted]
s/503/http 503/
21:20:30 [PIon]
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21:20:31 [olivier]
web 2.0 2.0
21:20:34 [rubys]
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21:20:37 [gerald]
maybe 2 million of those/day
21:20:38 [molly]
T.V Raman takes the stage
21:20:39 [JerryCarter]
web 2.1?
21:20:45 [myakura_]
web 5 then
21:20:46 [ferraiolo]
ChrisWilson: regarding been there done that, Adobe SVG also invented a web font format based on OpenType subsettgin called CEF which had compacted Type1 glyph data
21:20:46 [gsnedders]
21:20:54 [JerryCarter]
web 2.0 SP 1?
21:21:03 [s-mon]
21:21:06 [marcos]
21:21:24 [shepazu]
21:21:25 [csma]
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21:21:26 [s-mon]
make sure to read the EULA before using.
21:21:32 [gsnedders]
no, need the new security features in Web 2.0 SP2
21:21:33 [KevinLawver]
Web 2.0 Home Edition
21:21:35 [IanJ]
raman: Poor Web Applications
21:21:39 [charlton]
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21:21:42 [ChrisWilson]
ferraiolo cool, never heard of that. got a reference/timeframe?
21:21:47 [gsnedders]
KevinLawver: Home Edition? that's _so_ 2001.
21:21:58 [DanC_lap]
"have you ever seen a poor web application?" <chuckle />. but yes... in-your-face URIs suck.
21:22:03 [IanJ]
How about "Web Bob"?
21:22:04 [KevinLawver]
Web 2.Xtreme (now with lime!)
21:22:09 [molly]
"the Web is more than screen deep. I have the advantage over you in not having to see things jumping all over the place"
21:22:10 [molly]
21:22:18 [JerryCarter]
Kevin, you're on to something.
21:22:21 [ChrisWilson]
IanJ - Heck yeah!
21:22:25 [IanJ]
21:22:28 [ferraiolo]
Adobe never documented it, but it was just OpenType headers with one of the tables removed so that the font could not easily be used within an editing app
21:22:30 [gsnedders]
Web 2.0 Ultimate (with Ultimate Extras!)
21:22:44 [ferraiolo]
The compacted Type1 format is documented on the Adobe site
21:22:44 [Liam]
I think there's actually a spec for CEF somewhere... speaking of Adobe and Web Fonts, Thomas Phinney blogged about it recently,
21:22:44 [Bert]
Web Too eXtreme? Try FTP!
21:22:56 [IanJ]
I'm surprised that Anne has not suggested W5C yet.
21:23:22 [ferraiolo]
But Adobe isn't pushing it. Go with EOT instead.
21:23:42 [shepazu]
IanJ, lol
21:23:42 [Liam]
we need Type5 fonts of course!
21:24:09 [molly]
oh that slide just does it all
21:24:17 [Philip]
gsnedders: I think I'll stick with Web 2.0.21-r5 plus a small patch-set to make my hardware work properly
21:24:17 [PHB]
I already have bags on Web 3.14....
21:24:17 [Lachy]
what's on the slide?
21:24:18 [molly]
you guys on the audio stream are missing it
21:24:20 [JerryCarter]
yes, presentations are much better with formula
21:24:34 [gsnedders]
Philip: from what Web distro?
21:24:42 [Liam]
the message is that Web 2.0 is Web 1.0 + MathML I think. :)
21:24:43 [charlton]
a series denoting sets of Web content
21:24:43 [r12a]
lachy, mathematical integral equation
21:24:52 [Lachy]
quick, someone flickr a photo of the slide
21:24:53 [caribou]
"Let W denote set of all Web content"
21:24:57 [Philip]
gsnedders: Whichever one has the coolest mascot
21:25:03 [molly]
with the intent of calculating which Web version we're in :D
21:25:08 [KevinLawver]
Web 2.0 "Wooly Wombat"
21:25:09 [gsnedders]
Philip: Wubuntu?
21:25:13 [DanC_lap]
"2 to the Web".
21:25:14 [charlton]
the series = 2^w
21:25:20 [ChrisWilson]
Liam, thanks for the link to Thomas Phinney's blog post.
21:25:21 [IanJ]
I like "2 to the Web"
21:25:25 [charlton]
total perspective vortex
21:25:27 [molly]
I think we all need to start drinking. Very soon.
21:25:37 [gsnedders]
Soft drinks.
21:25:37 [sniffles]
the formula on the slide is combinatorics
21:25:38 [gsnedders]
21:25:39 [Liam]
21:25:40 [karl]
u2 to the web
21:25:43 [sniffles]
21:25:50 [ChrisWilson]
u to the webth?
21:25:52 [mjs]
I hate to admit it but I think that might have been too nerdy for me
21:25:53 [dom]
the "web-as-you-want-it" initiative?
21:26:00 [charlton]
2 to the web-th
21:26:04 [Steven]
GUI mess?
21:26:14 [ChrisWilson]
molly, maybe we already have started?
21:26:17 [tantek]
ok, who messed up the timeline?
21:26:20 [Steven]
mashups are a GUI mess
21:26:36 [charlton]
loosey-goosey HTML
21:26:37 [molly]
so you caught us doing those shots at breakfast, Chris? ;-)
21:26:41 [shepazu]
tantek, this is Lineup 2.0
21:26:42 [MikeSmith]
Steven - messups
21:26:43 [molly]
I charged it to Markus' card.
21:27:07 [molly]
gsnedders you have just made my head explode.
21:27:23 [KevinLawver]
URIs on a Plane "Get these mother-effin' URIs off this mother-effin' plane!"
21:27:24 [gsnedders]
molly: why? is the STC entity too great for you?
21:27:36 [tantek]
21:27:42 [gsnedders]
KevinLawver: s/Plane/Web/
21:27:43 [molly]
too great? Too contradictory to hold in the same vessel
21:27:47 [MikeSmith]
photo of Raman's dog flying in the pilot's seat
21:27:58 [charlton]
aeroflot mashup
21:27:59 [IanJ]
Title: "Hey, there's a dog in my plane."
21:27:59 [molly]
Bye AaronGustafson
21:28:07 [molly]
thank you so much
21:28:11 [gsnedders]
DanC_lap: Steven said mashups are a GUI mess
21:28:14 [judy]
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21:28:22 [gsnedders]
DanC_lap: so I mashed up the last three people to speak
21:28:23 [IanJ]
RogerC: Don't you have to pay for fonts?
21:28:24 [molly]
Raman rocks!
21:28:36 [KevinLawver]
21:28:37 [shepazu]
raman's good value
21:28:44 [IanJ]
Hakon: We can find ways to deal with cost of fonts.
21:28:45 [John_Boyer]
Raman is 2^rocks!
21:28:46 [mauro]
21:28:46 [caribou]
vote for Raman :)
21:28:47 [mauro]
Session 8: Making Video a First-Class Citizen of the Web
21:29:20 [Steven]
Actually Raman said "Mashed potato is a gooey mess"
21:29:21 [gsnedders]
molly: true. they should speak ore separated out :)
21:29:24 [Zakim]
21:29:39 [mauro]
-> Session 8
21:29:45 [JerryCarter]
we already have youtube, what other video do we need?
21:29:48 [AaronGustafson]
KevinLawver FTW!
21:29:49 [DS_]
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21:30:03 [Lachy]
we need <video> to replace flash-based media players
21:30:04 [dsr]
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21:30:13 [molly]
Hey, Charlton gets props, he didn't mention AIR or Flash or Flex!
21:30:23 [Lachy]
who's speaking?
21:30:34 [gsnedders]
"I can't believe the news today/I can't close my eyes and make it go away"
21:30:35 [shepazu]
Lachy, SVG also has video, and it's well-defined in SMIL
21:30:35 [matt]
zakim, dial matt-voip
21:30:35 [Zakim]
ok, matt; the call is being made
21:30:37 [Zakim]
21:30:39 [IanJ]
"Open panel"
21:30:40 [KevinLawver]
molly, i know! I was so looking forward to throwing bert...
21:30:44 [Steven]
Philip Le Hegaret
21:30:47 [matt]
zakim, mute matt
21:30:47 [Zakim]
Matt was already muted, matt
21:30:49 [charlton]
har molly
21:30:51 [charlton]
21:30:57 [caribou]
21:31:01 [IanJ]
Help Philippe! Video pirates have taken over his panel.
21:31:03 [charlton]
it ool aboot patterns
21:31:11 [molly]
KevinLawver: The idea of throwing Bert is a bit frightening, but if anyone can do it, you can.
21:31:14 [marcos]
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21:31:18 [KevinLawver]
Who's vlogging this panel?
21:31:20 [ht]
Danny says: "Flash mob on stage!"
21:31:27 [karl]
this is a bittorrent panel
21:31:46 [Bert]
bits are coming in in random order?
21:31:46 [brutzman]
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21:31:50 [KevinLawver]
karl, does that mean we get it one bit at a time and it will take 12 hours to get 1 hour of content
21:31:52 [KevinLawver]
21:31:56 [IanJ]
All fonts on the screen now look like crud after Håkon.
21:32:22 [karl]
KevinLawver: in real world yes.
21:32:24 [charlton]
double plus good
21:32:59 [KevinLawver]
I forgot that the plenary is the Magical Land of Pixies and Interoperable Implementations.
21:33:00 [molly]
is tossing Karl the beat the dead horse stick
21:33:05 [ChrisWilson]
caribou, I actually prefer using my pc to present (over my mac).
21:33:31 [karl]
molly: it is still moving. shoot it
21:33:37 [molly]
no no no
21:33:50 [molly]
no geeks w/ guns. very dangerous.
21:33:51 [olivier]
it is *not* easier to create video than music
21:34:00 [olivier]
might be easier to create crap video than noise
21:34:02 [olivier]
but that's different
21:34:03 [ChrisWilson]
"the shallow end of the bitstream" sounds like "the shallow end of the gene pool". Coincidence?
21:34:16 [JerryCarter]
Instead of <video/>, wouldn't <ascii-animation/> be much simpler?
21:34:20 [raman]
that's also largely true of the blogosphere.
21:34:51 [marcos]
aalib for the web!
21:35:29 [karl]
olivier: I guess differences lie between recording and creating. recording audio and video are quite the same, creating as in creation process is difficult.
21:35:38 [Liam]
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21:35:42 [ChrisWilson]
IanJ well Phillipe is USING opera, you'd think he'd use fonts...
21:35:52 [Zakim]
- +1.720.519.aaii
21:35:54 [karl]
music requires often skills
21:35:59 [raman]
font of all knowledge ...
21:36:32 [matt]
JerryCarter, that's what the alt tag is for!
21:36:34 [IanJ]
[Jason Gaedtke]
21:36:35 [raman]
writing good text is hard. Writing good hypertext is harder.
21:36:36 [Kangchan]
ITU-T FG IPTV ( is related to Video on the Web
21:36:40 [matt]
raman++ great talk!
21:36:50 [karl]
JerryCarter: for ascii-animation, the CSS working group is getting there with the marquee property
21:37:00 [raman]
blink blink marquis!
21:37:03 [KevinLawver]
video on the web is easier than holding down the button on the mic?
21:37:07 [Liam]
... bitstream... font of all knowledge... hmmm.
21:37:16 [Liam]
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21:37:25 [Bert]
If I point <video> at an animated GIF, will it play? What if I point it at single-frame GIF? Or, indeed, if I point it at an HTML file with a marquee?
21:37:27 [anne]
so who's presenting besides howcome and ed?
21:37:59 [charlton]
@Bert what is *should* do...
21:38:19 [DanC_lap]
protocol... cultural [what?] missed it... Harold, are you following?
21:38:25 [DanC_lap]
sounds close to pragmatics
21:38:28 [anne]
(ed being Erik Dahlström sitting next to howcome)
21:38:32 [raman]
lachy, my slides are temporarily here:
21:38:33 [jerome]
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21:38:47 [Bert]
Good to hear that, charlton. Now I hope your idea of should is the same as mine :-)
21:38:51 [timo]
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21:38:55 [Lachy]
thanks raman
21:39:17 [gsnedders]
ergh! I haven't done integration yet!
21:39:28 [DanC_lap]
raman, that talk rocked. there were no questions from me cuz I'm still absorbing 2^W
21:39:52 [DanC_lap]
ah... protocol citation... Galloway, MIT Press 2004
21:40:05 [molly]
raman okay with you if I post a screen shot of this slide to Flickr?
21:40:06 [raman]
thanks for all the compliments all ! Need it so I can survive the total perspective vortex by sufficiently inflating my ego.
21:40:07 [Dowan]
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21:40:09 [anne]
Bert, I'd hope it stays consistent with <img> in a way (I'm not sure if that excludes animated image formats such as GIF and APNG or not, though I believe it currently does)
21:40:19 [marcos]
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21:40:29 [sniffles]
proof by induction, Bert? :)
21:40:37 [KevinLawver]
We need a CDN for raman's ego.
21:40:39 [Philip]
gsnedders: It's easy, it's just like differentiation but backwards
21:40:40 [karl]
for the inflating ego
21:41:08 [charlton]
@Bert as 0, 1, 2 define order, straightforward proof, that
21:41:24 [raman]
bert w atop 0 + w atop 1 ... not "over"
21:41:37 [gsnedders]
Philip: but differentiating something is a lossy process!
21:42:07 [raman]
you'll never finish counting, because the document you publish with your count will be on the Web, thereby increasing w
21:42:19 [charlton]
@jgraham_ that's the nub
21:42:20 [ht]
URI for this set of slides????
21:42:25 [Dennis]
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21:42:42 [DanC_lap]
I'd use the URI in the /topic, ht, with a "to appear" qualification
21:43:00 [DanC_lap]
21:43:21 [charlton]
@DanC_L sniffles alluded to how such theorems are proved
21:43:42 [ht]
DanC, just that he just said "look at this deck on the web" . . .
21:43:43 [Philip]
jgraham_: Integration only matters in theory, because in practice you just ask your computer for a numerical approximation :-)
21:44:03 [gsnedders]
Philip, jgraham_: peh. I'll do it this year sometime :P
21:44:16 [jgraham_]
Philip, if only it were really that simple
21:44:54 [gsnedders]
Mr Computer, what is the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything?
21:45:00 [Lachy]
21:45:06 [jgraham_]
gsnedders, you can generally regain the lost information via boundary conditions or somesuch (for physical problems)
21:45:08 [gsnedders]
Thank you, Mr Computer
21:45:25 [jgraham_]
21:45:27 [gsnedders]
(wow, asking your computer really does work)
21:45:43 [raman]
Molly, yes, on posting a screenshot to flickr.
21:45:56 [raman]
dont ask your computer, ask Google (it's a bigger computer)
21:46:00 [s-mon]
darn, flash mentioned in the wrng context.
21:46:19 [gregt]
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21:46:23 [molly]
thanks Raman!
21:46:39 [marcos]
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21:46:40 [gsnedders]
Why am I writing on paper, and talking in two IRC channels, and on IM at once? I thought men can't multitask. Oh, yeah, sorry. I forgot. I got called a girl five times today.
21:46:41 [charlton]
@raman that's the nub
21:47:00 [mjs]
I think this presentation needs better fonts
21:47:02 [ferraiolo]
Hakon didn't mention that IE supports video within HTML since IE5
21:47:04 [chaals] - it's windows only for the moment, but being developed cross-platform
21:47:21 [Lachy]
damn patents! :-(
21:47:26 [DKA]
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21:47:50 [JerryCarter]
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21:48:07 [raman]
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21:48:24 [dsinger]
an open standard doesn't describe ogg, as it's not a standard, alas
21:48:46 [KevinLawver]
I thought we built this city on rock and roll?
21:48:47 [molly]
"moral obligation in the web community to find an open standard on this"
21:48:48 [Lachy]
Just support the video element with the API and let third partys ship OGG Theora/Vorbis and Dirac codecs that can plug-in and work with the media player
21:49:08 [rigo]
dsinger, but Howcome is doing really good preaching
21:49:27 [Lachy]
then that's problem solved for MS and Apple, since they avoid the legal hassels of shipping Theora and it can still become widely used
21:50:00 [dsinger]
sure, the principle is good; we merely need to find the answer
21:50:09 [marcos]
i believe!
21:50:11 [dsinger]
convergence and interop are quite desirable, really
21:50:11 [raman]
21:50:13 [MikeSmith]
"The Day of Cross-Browser Demos"
21:50:26 [KevinLawver]
Can I get an <amen/> from the congregation?!
21:50:28 [anne]
you can have custom controls if you don't do <video controls>
21:50:37 [anne]
and implement them yourself basically
21:50:45 [gsnedders]
21:51:07 [KevinLawver]
Hmmmm, how will the EOLAS patent ruling ruin the video element?
21:51:10 [MikeSmith]
talk really fast ed
21:51:12 [dsinger]
21:51:18 [raman]
does the video tag have a ff attribute?;-)
21:51:37 [raman]
ff==fast-forward, not firefox
21:52:04 [Lachy]
raman, what would a fast-forward attribute do in the markup?
21:52:12 [tantek]
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21:52:14 [Lachy]
There are ways to seek using the javascript api
21:52:17 [raman]
was a joke, re: make him talk faster
21:52:22 [Lachy]
21:52:33 [dsinger]
I thought you meant fontface
21:52:46 [anne]
3D <canvas> + SVG is not about <video> fwiw
21:52:58 [gsnedders]
dsinger: "I've heard there was a secret cord…"
21:52:59 [karl]
filter + svg is just awesome
21:53:00 [raman]
who said only pictures can replace a thousand words;-)
21:53:02 [MikeSmith]
anne - still, it's cool
21:53:05 [KevinLawver]
Oh no, we need attribute disambiguation!
21:53:10 [anne]
MikeSmith, definitely, just clarifying
21:53:13 [raman]
21:53:15 [anne]
otherwise people might get confused
21:53:20 [gsnedders]
raman: video can replace more than 1k
21:53:33 [Yves]
24 pictures per second replace 24 thousand words per second? ;)
21:53:43 [kazuhito]
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21:53:53 [raman]
video can replace 1k of text with 1mb of bandwidth
21:53:58 [Yves]
21:54:21 [MikeSmith]
hmm, that experimental Opera build is Windows only?
21:55:11 [marcos]
opera has a secret deal with microsoft
21:55:31 [raman]
yes, that explains Howcome's outward bluster;-)
21:55:32 [ChrisWilson]
Lachy, shipping a plugin api (and we already do) doesn't solve the problem of interoperability, because content developers will want the codec on the machine to build with.
21:55:43 [ChrisWilson]
marcos - hahahahahahaha
21:55:45 [ed]
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21:55:59 [gsnedders]
Opera 9.5 _is_ IE8
21:56:08 [IanJ]
Soylent Green is People
21:56:08 [myakura]
21:56:20 [karl]
IanJ: yummy!
21:56:28 [Lachy]
ChrisWilson, that's why the spec includes <source> so multiple formats can be included
21:56:44 [gsnedders]
anne: I can't see that!
21:56:46 [Lachy]
it's not hard to release an MPEG4, OGG and WMV file, since they can all be easily generated from the same source
21:57:03 [gsnedders]
anne: besides, it's just IE8/Mac
21:57:06 [anne]
gsnedders, I believe next year there will be streaming video, though I may have just made that up
21:57:07 [karl]
Det. Thorn: Who bought you?
21:57:07 [karl]
Hatcher: You're bought as soon as they pay you a salary.
21:57:20 [karl]
-- soylent green
21:57:21 [ChrisWilson]
Lachy, I understand, but 1) Hakon is talking about required baseline fmt - we wouldn't support the spec if we didn't ship -
21:57:22 [kenny]
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21:57:25 [gsnedders]
anne: if it is in France next year, I should be able to get there in person anyway
21:57:37 [dsinger]
the set of <source> in each <video> is indeed one amelioration of a lack of universality, but it is is a work-around
21:57:42 [ChrisWilson]
and 2) content developers don't want multiple copies for no super-good reason.
21:57:42 [anne]
ChrisWilson, legal reasons are good enough to ignore a SHOULD prolly
21:57:54 [mjs]
there's no required baseline currently
21:57:57 [Lachy]
I don't think a required baseline format will work. The spec currently doesn't require OGG, it only recommends it
21:58:00 [mjs]
there's a recommended baseline
21:58:09 [DanC_lap]
hmm... "your process". our process?
21:58:10 [mdean]
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21:58:16 [anne]
yeah, what mjs says
21:58:21 [mjs]
(which I'm not sure is helpful)
21:58:25 [janet]
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21:58:29 [raman]
remember, w3c used to recommendations, not standards. "recomended" baseline will turn"rrnterp.
21:58:35 [marcos]
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21:58:46 [chaals]
MikeSmith, we have demonstrated video on Mac and Linux in other places, and they too will be made available "in the near future"...
21:59:05 [Lachy]
the only other solution would be to get all the members of the MPEGLA to give up their patent licences, which doesn't seem likely till they expire in about a decade
21:59:26 [MikeSmith]
chaals - give me the source and I will just build it myself
21:59:27 [shepazu]
metadata in media spec:;%20charset=iso-8859-1
21:59:30 [dsinger]
I think the availability/nature of what is already in the spec. for accessibility is not obvious (even to Hakon)
21:59:34 [shepazu]
work in progress
21:59:57 [ChrisWilson]
mjs, anne - I understand. I'm sympathetic to the real goal - baseline fmt that just works. I don't see how to make it happen, since I've been advised the likelihood Ogg Theora is really unencumbered approachs zero. TINLA, IANAL.
22:00:25 [rigo]
this needs a lot of work, let's wait for the video workshop
22:00:26 [ferraiolo]
My opinion is to don't waste time on trying to specify a required codec. It's futile to think that the Japanese consumer electronic devices will switch to a different format just because a W3C spec makes a recommendation.
22:00:41 [ChrisWilson]
Lachy - hey, I like your solution. Can you ring up MPLA? :)
22:00:47 [JerryCarter]
TINLA = I'm wearing a tin hat with my fingers in my ears chanting 'La, la, la, la...'?
22:00:47 [anne]
it's so broad
22:00:52 [Lachy]
sure :-)
22:00:58 [gsnedders]
ChrisWilson: I don't see how either, but I think there should be a recommendation, even if it is ignored by most
22:01:03 [ChrisWilson]
"This Is Not Legal Advice"
22:01:13 [dsinger]
there are a lot of interesting markup, dom, styling issues we can usefully spend our time on before the baseline format becomes the only problem to discuss
22:01:13 [IanJ]
22:01:14 [kenny]
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22:01:18 [MikeSmith]
ferraiolo - so we also make it a JIS specification
22:01:19 [molly]
raman's slide Flickr'd for your amusement:
22:01:32 [rigo]
anne, it will take some time, but it is not hopeless
22:01:40 [mikko_honkala_]
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22:01:40 [JerryCarter]
ChrisWilson, same thing.
22:01:41 [anne]
dsinger, sure, but that kind of needs solving too :)
22:01:59 [ChrisWilson]
JerryCarter lalalalala I can't hear you. :)
22:01:59 [anne]
rigo, hmm, isn't it a workshop for just two days?
22:02:00 [rigo]
patent is protection over time only and e.g. MP3 was patented in 1993 or so
22:02:09 [raman]
may be the patents will expire by the time the specs are done through the process (hixie's timeline )
22:02:24 [DS]
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22:02:25 [ChrisWilson]
raman, well there is that approach.
22:02:36 [KevinLawver]
IRC = shared experience w/out the bandwidth.
22:02:48 [anne]
at that point it's likely you want something better though, but maybe not
22:02:50 [Enric]
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22:02:52 [Bert]
IRC is the new Web 2.0 ?
22:03:05 [rigo]
raman, if we are on Ian's timeline, we don't have to worry about codecs
22:03:09 [KevinLawver]
Chat 2.0 - this time it's personal
22:03:09 [molly]
IRC was web -1.0!
22:03:11 [sniffles]
irc is web 0.09
22:03:21 [anne]
Bert, if Web 2.0 is a distraction :)
22:03:22 [JimM]
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22:03:26 [ChrisWilson]
No, sniffles, that's gopher
22:03:38 [ChrisL]
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22:03:42 [Hideki]
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22:03:42 [sniffles]
ChrisWilson: fair poitn :)
22:03:45 [sniffles]
uh point
22:03:55 [raman]
irc is definitely a core part of the Web. calling it 0.9 is confusing interface with funionality
22:04:05 [KevinLawver]
No wonder standards take so long. We're all worried about the singularity
22:04:06 [charlton]
@Bert IRCr :-) - IRC with the ability to utilise URLs and RSS feeds beyond what we're presently doing
22:04:08 [ChrisL]
Erik, got a link to the source of the svg video demos?
22:04:10 [raman]
22:04:17 [karl]
22:04:30 [DanC_lap]
I wonder if we'll move to jabber/XMPP; the IETF uses it institutionally
22:04:34 [ed]
ChrisL: the has a link to demos I think
22:04:35 [molly]
IRC is a core internet technology
22:04:37 [charlton]
IRC is a core service
22:04:46 [molly]
prior to the web, and if I'm correct, prior to gopher by at least a bit
22:04:48 [anne]
just refer to SMIL from <video>
22:04:54 [charlton]
but should anyone beyond those in the know even realise they are using it?
22:05:11 [raman]
wish individual utterances in irc were url addressable ... would make 2^w grow really really fast
22:05:31 [Steven]
rrsagent, pointer?
22:05:31 [RRSAgent]
22:05:35 [ChrisL]
Thanks Erik
22:05:36 [Steven]
There you go Raman
22:05:37 [anne]
raman, if you count fragment identifiers
22:05:40 [anne]
this may work
22:05:49 [ed]
ChrisL: so, the bottom of
22:05:50 [MikeSmith]
IRCPath ... IRC Selectors
22:05:57 [KevinLawver]
twitter = irc 2.0
22:05:57 [raman]
22:05:59 [charlton]
that's the nub, exactly @raman
22:06:08 [molly]
IRC was developed in late 1988
22:06:09 [charlton]
snitter = irc 2.0
22:06:11 [ferraiolo]
I strongly agree with the SMIL chair about not reinventing SMIL. SVG uses SMIL. People are implementing SVG in SMIL. Just also add it to HTML just like IE5 did with HTML+SMIL
22:06:15 [marcos]
how many namespaces in smile?
22:06:18 [Bert]
+1 to Dick Bulterman
22:06:21 [shepazu]
SVG uses the SMIL tech
22:06:21 [gsnedders]
[IRC age] > [gsnedders age]
22:06:24 [Steven]
+1 to DCAB
22:06:37 [gsnedders]
bleh. that's a parse error.
22:06:43 [ferraiolo]
SVG uses 70% of the SMIL spec
22:06:51 [DanC_lap]
(somebody take a photo of dave singer? maybe I can find one somewhere else)
22:06:54 [KevinLawver]
charlton, you're only saying that because snitter = Air.
22:06:55 [ChrisWilson]
maybe html5 should use the other 30%
22:06:56 [molly]
gopher was late spring 1991
22:07:04 [gsnedders]
gopher is older than me too :\
22:07:07 [shepazu]
ChrisWilson, lol
22:07:10 [anne]
maybe we should avoid SMIL
22:07:10 [molly]
so both are negative web values
22:07:16 [gsnedders]
molly: can we get to my lifetime yet?
22:07:17 [molly]
but positive internet values
22:07:19 [anne]
just a thought
22:07:20 [ChrisL]
Erik, yes it does at the end. Maybe tag the article 'svg' as well in that case?
22:07:28 [molly]
gsnedders don't scare me like that
22:07:28 [ChrisL]
22:07:30 [mjs]
SMIL hasn't shown itself to be author-friendly
22:07:33 [ferraiolo]
svg uses pretty much the same pieces of SMIL as HTML+SMIL
22:07:33 [charlton]
@KevinLawver - not really.... :-) snitter is an example (happens t/b AIR) of how to combine feeds with Twitter
22:07:34 [KevinLawver]
Whatever we do, the next working group needs to be called FR0N to balance out SMIL.
22:07:45 [mjs]
HTML5 <video> is not a SMIL replacement, it's a replacement for Flash-based video players
22:07:46 [Lachy]
oh, I like Opera's video implementation. It works well
22:07:52 [Lachy] (test cases)
22:07:55 [gsnedders]
molly: heh. I've had several people in the WG say they though I was middle-aged from my contributions :)
22:07:59 [rigo]
mjs, is this worth another 6 years development in the trashbin?
22:08:13 [mjs]
rigo: sunk costs fallacy
22:08:28 [MikeSmith]
DanC_lap - Dave Singer photo -
22:08:30 [MikeSmith]
22:08:31 [marcos]
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22:08:36 [jallan]
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22:08:38 [gsnedders]
molly: (I'm 15 — born 1992-04-20)
22:08:49 [ed]
ChrisL: that sounds like a good idea, and note the blurb about further articles coming for svg:video and the 3d canvas
22:08:49 [dsinger]
i think much of the point of the simplicity of what is in html5 in terms of synch is precisely to defer those issues to a (potentially embedded) smil file
22:09:18 [molly]
gsnedders - so are you teaching your teachers a thing or two?
22:09:18 [shepazu]
mjs, another way of stating what you said is, "SMIL has not shown itself to be author-unfriendly"
22:09:33 [aaronlev]
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22:09:45 [tantek]
"metadata around video is a problem"
22:09:47 [ChrisL]
Erik, yes i read that so it meant I didn't scroll down to the end and find the SVG bit the first time I read it :)
22:09:50 [gsnedders]
molly: what I can persuade them is right, only, sadly :(
22:10:15 [gsnedders]
molly: I have a habit of using ISO8601 dates everywhere, though. All but one teacher was confused by them.
22:10:16 [mjs]
shepazu: no, I definitely mean the opposite of that
22:10:31 [glazou]
is there a doctor in the room ?-)
22:10:32 [molly]
gsnedders I feel for you. Don't know if you were listening during the opening panel this a.m., and I brought up that very issue - that often, students are far ahead of their instructors
22:10:34 [Rich]
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22:10:35 [molly]
it must be so frustrating
22:10:40 [shepazu]
mjs, ok, but that's not what you said...
22:10:49 [gsnedders]
molly: I was at school when those sessions were on, so no
22:10:55 [karl]
mjs: in which ways SMIL is not user friendly?
22:10:59 [jgraham_]
video seems to come with a lot of stop energy through over-complication
22:11:02 [JerryCarter]
molly, that was a good example...and a sad note.
22:11:03 [karl]
how do you think it could be improved
22:11:05 [gsnedders]
molly: the sad part is having to learn what is wrong for the exams
22:11:10 [mjs]
well, it's had more than enough time to prove itself to be author-friendly
22:11:19 [molly]
gsnedders: that was exactly my point
22:11:20 [mjs]
SMIL has support for static images
22:11:28 [mjs]
that doesn't mean every spec to include images has to use SMIL
22:11:40 [molly]
a story about a college student who was failed for writing a site in valid markup and CSS
22:11:45 [karl]
mjs: how would you improve SMIL to make it user friendly?
22:11:59 [molly]
because the criteria was to follow the instructor's guidelines to build in tables
22:12:05 [mjs]
karl: author-friendly != user-friendly
22:12:21 [gsnedders]
molly: I was discussing with Hixie a while back in #html-wg (I think, it may have been #whatwg) about writing a whole paragraph long answer for a one-word-answer question, giving what they want, then explaining why it is wrong
22:12:24 [hal__]
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22:12:25 [molly]
JerryCarter I know, I actually have more stories like that. It's very frustrating from an educational point of view.
22:12:34 [klaus]
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22:12:36 [karl]
SMIL is used a lot in Real player for example. When I tried to use it, the trouble was not that it was not author friendly to me, but that implementations like real and quicktime were very partial
22:12:37 [KevinLawver]
My visual metaphor for the 18-inch experience (the one that caused glazou's psy-team comment).
22:12:39 [KevinLawver]
22:12:42 [ChrisWilson]
hakon: we all have video cameras in our pockets these days.
22:12:50 [ChrisWilson]
how many of those generate Ogg Theora?
22:12:51 [Hixie]
is jason here? (on irc)
22:12:59 [mjs]
karl: it might be an interesting problem to improve SMIL, but I don't see that as the same problem as video embedding in HTML
22:13:03 [karl]
mjs: how would you improve SMIL to make it *author-friendly*?
22:13:09 [gsnedders]
molly: <>
22:13:10 [dsinger]
video cameras tend to use avi, raw audio and motion jpeg
22:13:13 [plinss]
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22:13:22 [karl]
mjs: you are avoiding the answer ;)
22:13:27 [Hixie]
karl: drop all the namespaces, for one...
22:13:30 [ChrisWilson]
and quicktime, right?
22:13:31 [KevinLawver]
Yes, interoperable video = world peace!
22:13:34 [mjs]
karl: because I don't care about the question
22:13:35 [dsinger]
all of which have the advantage of being RF (ish)
22:13:40 [KevinLawver]
equal rights for motion pictures!
22:13:49 [Hixie]
for those of you interested in seeing the HTML5 API, btw, it's at
22:13:50 [ChrisWilson]
22:13:51 [danz]
hixie: SMIL3.0 now has a single namespace
22:13:57 [PHB]
Took me 2 hours to shoot a 4 minute podcast, and another 2 hours to get it to compress acceptably
22:13:58 [mjs]
karl: my opinion on SMIL is that it doesn't seem like the best solution to simple video embedding
22:13:59 [tantek]
what company is going to be the "Compuserve" of video?
22:14:00 [karl]
mjs: then I don't know how you can make the comment :) CQFD
22:14:07 [tantek]
(i.e. what happened with GIF0
22:14:08 [tantek]
22:14:09 [shepazu]
mjs, SMIL (especially SMIL video) is author-friendly
22:14:11 [charlton]
molly: the anecdote is a good case for how lack of information dissemination combined with a difficult environment creates problem
22:14:16 [Hixie]
danz: uri?
22:14:26 [dsinger]
smil is excellent at what it's for: media integration
22:14:32 [danz]
hixie: give me a second to find it
22:14:33 [mjs]
and the HTML5 API is actually more useful for interesting and useful playback
22:14:36 [PHB]
Getting it compressed to a codec that would work on a mac was an issue
22:14:48 [dsinger]
if I only have one media (medium) i probably don't need it
22:14:56 [anne]
so SMIL went from 111 to 1?
22:15:00 [anne]
I wonder how that went
22:15:00 [PHB]
We need a standard, what the standard is matters much less than that there is a standard
22:15:01 [mjs]
if the problem at hand is "embed a video in my blog", then SMIL doesn't meet the criteria of "as easy or easier than using Flash"
22:15:02 [dsinger]
and even with smil we need a normal way to embed it in html
22:15:04 [ferraiolo]
The key thing that SMIL provides is the timing model which explains how multiple time-based elements are kept in sync
22:15:05 [ChrisWilson]
tantek - well, as an employee of the company with the biggest dollar sign target painted on it, that is what concerns me.
22:15:05 [molly]
charlton agreed. And you get smart young folks such as gsnedders here, and they are put into the profoundly uncomfortable position of being more authoritative than the person who is meant to be the authority
22:15:05 [anne]
(111 to 1 namespace)
22:15:10 [shepazu]
mjs, there's nothing stopping us from merging the HTML5 video APIs to the SMIL model
22:15:20 [skw]
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22:15:22 [shepazu]
... best of both worlds
22:15:24 [rigo]
tantek, they will continue to exist as <defunct> companies collecting royalties :)
22:15:25 [charlton]
the nub is approaching video content as equal to other media - rules/profiles expose the capabilities and requirements
22:15:25 [mjs]
shepazu: feel free to do so, it's a free spec
22:16:00 [ChrisWilson]
phb - the problem is that I don't see a really safe freely implementable codec.
22:16:02 [mjs]
<video> should be as easy as <img> for basic cases
22:16:06 [charlton]
worse @molly, they are often being judged by people who are quite angry at that and other aspecs of their situation
22:16:06 [gsnedders]
molly: </modest> But there again, very few people my age are quite so involved in standards, and quite so knowledgeable of such things. <modest>
22:16:09 [shepazu]
mjs, that's my intent
22:16:10 [jgraham_]
22:16:13 [ChrisWilson]
(video tag, apis, etc - all obvious good)
22:16:29 [dsinger]
chriswilson: try motion jpeg, uncompressed audio, and an avi wrapper
22:16:41 [marcos]
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22:17:08 [danz]
hixie and anne: still looking. it may be in a yet-to-be-published draft. bottom line is your input was accepted
22:17:10 [gsnedders]
charlton: that's very true, and also why I tend not to answer any question given to the class. I'll give a totally correct answer, in a way too technical for anyone else to understand.
22:17:15 [ChrisWilson]
yeeeesh. are you talking consumer video cameras, or what a P&S camera emits, or both?
22:17:19 [JerryCarter]
For basic cases, why not just use <img> to point to video? Hell, animated GIFs aren't far from it.
22:17:25 [Liam]
hmm, where's that animated ascii-art telnet interface for the Star Wars film gone?
22:17:30 [Hixie]
danz: cool
22:17:30 [anne]
danz, I think Simon Pieters actually made the comment
22:17:46 [KevinLawver]
Man, I wish my TV was 8 feet wide.
22:17:50 [dsinger]
point and shoot (still) cameras; though DV is very like m-jpeg, and dv audio is raw also
22:17:53 [mjs]
JerryCarter: because videos images and sounds are different media
22:17:56 [gsnedders]
Man, I wish I was in Cambridge.
22:17:57 [ChrisWilson]
JerryCarter - heh. Do a web search on "dynsrc".
22:17:59 [Hixie]
danz: i'd be interested in seeing how simple it is to have a video element like html5's using smil
22:18:10 [karl]
anne: not ranting would be new :p
22:18:14 [hal__]
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22:18:32 [Hixie]
danz: i closely examined smil (and svg, and <t:video>, and others) before speccing the html5 api -- none of them really seemed to match our requirements
22:18:41 [anne]
karl, might scare away readers, so I try not to
22:18:45 [JerryCarter]
ChrisWilson, looked up dynsrc. That's frightening.
22:18:47 [charlton]
@gsnedders - indeed; other experiences I have witnessed - uni students being failed on work judged by TAs simply due to the TAs wanting to silently require a certain impl
22:18:50 [ferraiolo]
Hixie: My opinion is invent an html video tag but define its behavior relating to other time-based elements using the SMILtiming model
22:19:00 [gsnedders]
charlton: TA?
22:19:08 [ht]
Teaching assistant
22:19:10 [molly]
gsnedders true you are in a minority, but there are certainly teens that are far more advanced in technology and particularly the Web than the teachers who don't get it, didn't have it, etc.
22:19:22 [ChrisWilson]
anne - i see no rant?
22:19:39 [anne]
I think you can't find it because it contains 111 URIs which is considered as spam by search engines
22:19:43 [tantek]
Håkon: "$100 laptop can't show video"
22:19:45 [Hixie]
ferraiolo: that would be useful, yes, if it's possible
22:19:48 [dsinger]
re: smil; I am not at all sure we should attempt to merge smil into html in the first iteration; embedding it is a good start
22:19:53 [tantek]
Håkon, but can it do animated GIF? ;)
22:19:55 [gsnedders]
molly: knowing how some teachers are, there are often a lot of pupils far dumber than me who are still far more knowledgeable than the teacher
22:20:06 [shepazu]
howcome, who fronts the money?
22:20:08 [Hixie]
tantek: he said it could do video, just not the more modern codecs, as i understand it
22:20:09 [DanC_lap]
is there any way to find out how free ogg is? reliably? what would it cost? are the members willing to pay it?
22:20:12 [ferraiolo]
Hixie: anyone who has implemented SVG, such as Opera, already has the SMIL timing model implemented
22:20:15 [Bert]
tantek, howcome said it *can* show video.
22:20:15 [anne]
22:20:17 [charlton]
@gsnedders, @molly - many TAs are worse
22:20:26 [gsnedders]
charlton: that's part of the reason why I'm not intending on doing CS at uni
22:20:26 [Lachy]
I thought H?kon just said the $100 laptop could play video, or did I hear incorrectly?
22:20:29 [shepazu]
howcome... for the patent search and due diligence?
22:20:34 [charlton]
due to how they tend to be abused at uni
22:20:38 [ChrisWilson]
Tantek - actually, I think animated GIF could be our baseline format... :)
22:20:39 [Hixie]
ferraiolo: indeed
22:20:50 [DanC_lap]
can we get the USPTO to say definitively that ogg isn't covered by patents for some fee?
22:21:03 [rigo]
take mpeg4 and mpeg21 and we are all done, but unfortunately ..... [...]
22:21:04 [ferraiolo]
Hixie: but note that SVG doesn't use SMIL markup
22:21:05 [JerryCarter]
DanC, don't think so.
22:21:05 [dsinger]
svg is also time-based, and therefore had to have a timing model, and so smil issues arose; html is not (yet) time-based (much)
22:21:09 [molly]
charlton I think that's political though, not always a statement of knowledge
22:21:10 [charlton]
@gsnedders it is one of the intangibles w.r.t. taking uni
22:21:12 [Hixie]
danz: there's more than one patent office
22:21:13 [Hixie]
22:21:14 [glazou]
ChrisWilson: you heard about the eye-fi SD card btw ?
22:21:18 [Hixie]
22:21:18 [Lachy]
DanC_lap, I doubt it, but you could try
22:21:26 [charlton]
@molly it is a combination of the two
22:21:26 [sniffles]
charlton: there's also the issue of the academic ego ...
22:21:28 [JerryCarter]
DanC, the cheaper tactic is to buy a few legislators.
22:21:44 [Hideki]
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22:21:56 [mjs]
I don't think the USPTO makes rulings of that kind
22:21:57 [Lachy]
Yay! No DRM :-)
22:21:57 [ChrisWilson]
danC_lap - 1) not really (you can do lots of patent searches, but there's nothing certain), 2) that's legal advice anyway, and 3) i think you'd find people wouldn't want to fund it.
22:22:00 [anne]
gavin_, sorry for the confusion, I meant that that's the only thing I did, I didn't actually provide feedback
22:22:07 [molly]
no DRM ++
22:22:13 [DanC_lap]
sorry, right, never mind my USPTO question.
22:22:14 [ChrisWilson]
glazou - yeah. I think I'm going to order one.
22:22:27 [dsinger]
username/password is hardly a drm system :-)
22:22:28 [glazou]
ChrisWilson: me too ; and I already have the CF-SD adapter
22:22:32 [Hixie]
DanC_lap: my understanding from speaking to lawyers is that the only way to get a real ruling is to implement the codec, put it out there, and have a multibillion dollar company backing it and liable for patent problems in it.
22:22:41 [mikko_honkala_]
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22:22:42 [gsnedders]
sniffles: academics have egos? *looks at father* ah yeah.
22:22:44 [molly]
anne you're too progressive for me!
22:22:46 [Hixie]
DanC_lap: and then wait 20 years.
22:22:50 [DanC_lap]
that makes sense, hixie
22:22:53 [gavin_]
anne: yeah, I figured it out once you pointed to a post from 2006 :)
22:22:59 [ChrisWilson]
anne - ahh. I read your note the same as gavin
22:23:01 [JerryCarter]
DanC / ChrisWilson. The lawyers become legislators and write the laws. The lawyers become judges who interpret the laws. The deck is stacked.
22:23:16 [marcos]
yeah, not paying for great content is ggrest:p
22:23:17 [ChrisWilson]
hixie: NOT IT. :)
22:23:29 [rigo]
DanC, it takes another 5 years to get something decent we can live with IMHO
22:23:30 [ChrisWilson]
or would that be DO NOT WANT!
22:23:32 [Hixie]
ChrisWilson: :-)
22:23:39 [sniffles]
gsnedders: ;)
22:23:40 [marcos]
great. even
22:23:40 [mauro]
22:23:41 [mauro]
Session 9: Discussion with the Director, Tim Berners-Lee
22:24:06 [mauro]
-> Session 9
22:24:07 [molly]
gsnedders anytime!
22:24:08 [gsnedders]
sniffles: (that said, my father's area is Olde French :))
22:24:13 [glazou]
ChrisWilson: was in stock yesterday, 100% out of stock everywhere today
22:24:14 [Steven]
TV Raman speaking
22:24:29 [gsnedders]
molly: anytime there? or just anytime? :P
22:24:31 [marcos]
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22:24:32 [dsinger]
talking of timing models, has anyone ever thought about something as simple as a seek in smil or svg? read the specs and see if you can find two people who agree what they mean
22:24:34 [sniffles]
molly: we should probably grab rob dickerson on the conversation with gsnedders
22:24:46 [gsnedders]
rob dickerson?
22:24:50 [sniffles]
gsnedders: there's an EduTF at the web standards project with whom i was active for a long while
22:24:54 [ChrisWilson]
glazou - saw one at Amazon this afternoon; am sure they'll restock soon
22:25:21 [danz]
hixie: i can't find the uri now, and i want to hear the new talk...i'll email you later
22:25:26 [aaronlev]
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22:25:34 [IanJ]
By the way, folks with slides: please send me URIs of your slides or your slides so I can link from agenda.
22:25:35 [IanJ]
22:25:58 [Hixie]
danz: cool, thanks
22:26:43 [scottv]
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22:26:56 [Al]
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22:27:09 [shepazu]
clever analogy with expansion gaps
22:27:13 [ChrisWilson]
glazou i don't think so
22:27:24 [karl]
hmm the slides were at ?
22:27:24 [anne]
(so actually live search and yahoo find "smil namespace documentation" just fine, it's just Google that likely considers it to be spam based on the URIs)
22:27:37 [anne]
(i guess that tells what search engine I use)
22:27:48 [Liam]
glazou: I doubt it. My father also speaks quickly, and got faster. When his hardware can no longer keep up with his CPU, his audio output has skips in it.
22:27:48 [shepazu]
glazou, no, as TimBL approaches infinity, he will speak faster and faster relative to our timeframe
22:27:55 [Dennis]
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22:28:11 [Enric]
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22:28:20 [gsnedders]
molly, sniffles, charlton: I'm off for the night. <> is my email if you do want to put me in contact with anyone (or just yourselves :))
22:28:26 [greg]
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22:28:43 [sniffles]
bye gsnedders !
22:28:53 [JerryCarter]
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22:29:59 [hal__]
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22:30:06 [IanJ]
[TBL shows a diagram/flow chart of web arch]
22:30:12 [IanJ]
[starting with URIs]
22:30:31 [karl]
obscure poet sometimes ;)
22:30:44 [sniffles]
but what is poetry, without obscurity?
22:30:46 [olivier]
poe tim
22:31:04 [PaulC]
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22:31:12 [rigo]
tales of mistery for me :)
22:31:18 [Kai]
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22:31:21 [molly]
bye gsnedders!
22:31:28 [glazou]
#timbl:active { speech-rate: slower ! important ; }
22:32:01 [IanJ]
"flexibility points in the architecture"
22:32:01 [PaulC]
Is this IRC channel archived somewhere?
22:32:16 [IanJ]
zakim, pointer?
22:32:17 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, IanJ.
22:32:18 [molly]
glazou: First time I saw Tim speak back some WWW confs ago, he had an assistant that sat in front with SLOW and CLEARER signs
22:32:24 [IanJ]
rrsagent, pointer?
22:32:24 [RRSAgent]
22:32:29 [IanJ]
Paul, there you go.
22:32:30 [molly]
me tooooo
22:32:50 [molly]
I just like to pass it off as a sign of intelligence. Wouldn't you agree, Arun? ;)
22:33:05 [glazou]
molly: the first time I met timbl was in 1992 at Grif when he came to make turn us Grif into a browser (mentioned in Weaving the Web) ; he was speaking MUCH faster
22:33:06 [rigo]
#timbl:active {hop 3} :)
22:33:18 [caribou]
hyperlink thinking certainly requires high intelligence
22:33:27 [arun]
@molly: yep :) us fast talkers (with speed ~ IQ)
22:33:35 [DanC_lap]
the hardest part of conneg, for me, is offline use, i.e. file:
22:33:45 [molly]
glazou I believe he's been slowed down as much as is possible for the time being
22:33:48 [rigo]
ok #timbl:active {hop:3} :)
22:34:10 [glazou]
rigo: the smiley is part of the rule ?-)
22:34:28 [rigo]
no, that's part of the defensive DRM system
22:34:28 [DanC_lap]
22:34:38 [molly]
josema - I don't think it's the accent
22:34:40 [molly]
it's the speed
22:34:47 [DanC_lap]
"make sure the html is generated from the data" <- timbl knows full well it works the other way just as well.
22:34:50 [fantasai]
glazou: it gets ignored; the first part is still valid
22:34:58 [molly]
and the mental hyperlinking
22:35:02 [caribou]
"mind types"
22:35:04 [caribou]
22:35:06 [molly]
22:35:08 [rigo]
glazou, I might have a closer look at your camera o:-)
22:35:10 [molly]
that's great caribou
22:35:19 [caribou]
it's not me, it's the captioner:)
22:35:29 [molly]
really? Oh classic
22:35:41 [hal__]
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22:35:43 [glazou]
rigo: private property, no trespassing, violators will be prosecuted
22:35:50 [maxf]
poor captioners. /me doesn't dare look
22:35:53 [anne]
fwiw, we can still support new image types by instead of supporting a new MIME type add a new first bytes sniffing rule
22:35:54 [josema]
molly, you're right, but I think that's the fallback text the captioner use when cannot understand
22:35:57 [sniffles]
caribou: i think i liked "Mike crow formats" best :)
22:36:00 [tantek]
problem: .ics lacks a SOURCE property (unlike .vcf which does have a SOURCE property)
22:36:02 [ChrisWilson]
glazou sounds like me about my camera
22:36:04 [glazou]
fantasai: I think you're a geek :)
22:36:06 [IanJ]
TBL: Please, os designers, hand off URIs to helper apps.
22:36:09 [RogerC]
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22:36:15 [anne]
or accepting the MIME type for the new one
22:36:22 [molly]
Oh I missed the Mike Crow formats. Did Tantek see that?
22:36:28 [glazou]
ChrisWilson: rigo has a leitmotiv : personal image property
22:36:30 [tantek]
ironically, no Address Book application makes use of the SOURCE property of vCard - if it did, it could subscribe to vCards.
22:36:31 [KevinLawver]
tag soup is the end of my world
22:36:31 [anne]
(i think the latter is how we do <img src=svg> in Opera, not sure)
22:36:37 [fantasai]
glazou: You're the one who made the speech-rate rule :) :)
22:36:37 [ChrisWilson]
IanJ despite that being a bad user experience?
22:36:56 [anne]
KevinLawver, without it your world might have been less interesting
22:36:57 [ChrisWilson]
kevinLawver - end of one world, beginning of the next.
22:37:01 [tantek]
"It's the tag soup world and I feel fine."
22:37:02 [klaus]
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22:37:08 [glazou]
fantasai: I'm the one who told the css wg the values for keyword values for speech-rate were language-dependant, actually
22:37:08 [ChrisWilson]
arun is that a statement abou tim's talk? :)
22:37:12 [IanJ]
CHris, why is handing URI to a handler a bad user experience?
22:37:24 [LeeF]
ChrisWilson: passing a URI to a handler doesn't mean it needs to show up on the screen
22:37:26 [KevinLawver]
chriswilson - the beginning of the aforementioned "real world"? ;)
22:37:34 [LeeF]
22:37:38 [molly]
now my head really hurts
22:37:40 [molly]
thanks Kevin
22:37:41 [ChrisWilson]
thanks, tantek, now I'll be having REM in my head the rest of the night. Must apply alcohol soon.
22:37:59 [glazou]
fantasai: 180-200 words/minute is medium for english, but very fast for french for instance...
22:38:10 [ChrisWilson]
LeeF - that's true.
22:38:14 [glazou]
22:38:22 [molly]
it is chilly in here
22:38:23 [marcos]
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22:38:25 [caribou]
french words are usually longer
22:38:28 [IanJ]
TBL clearly states: "Ok for html wg to document tag soup; but we need to find a way to incrementally move to well-formed content."
22:38:29 [ChrisWilson]
IanJ - if it's not a seamless, in-frame experience, users find it distracting.
22:38:43 [glazou]
especially since the hotel took my cashmere sweater after they put butter on it
22:38:46 [IanJ]
Hand-off of URI seems independent of in-frameness of experience.
22:38:47 [s-mon]
i can clearly sense cool air next to the left wall.
22:38:51 [marcos]
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22:38:52 [caribou]
the "valid dater"
22:38:53 [ChrisWilson]
IanJ that's easy, pay off the content tools authors.
22:38:53 [amit]
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22:38:55 [IanJ]
but I should not keep discussing this; I was just quoting tbl..
22:38:57 [Lachy]
there are validator extensions for various browsers. But they're useless for most users, so will never ship by default
22:39:01 [tantek]
"Problem with validation is that it only checks against DTDs"
22:39:13 [Liam]
"never" is a long word.
22:39:20 [Lachy]
there are more advanced techniques for validation beyond DTDs
22:39:27 [molly]
I have never met a valid dater i my life
22:39:31 [molly]
22:39:33 [marcos]
I like badges
22:39:33 [Lachy]
s/validation/conformance checking/
22:39:34 [glazou]
we should have a special validator checking if a web page is useful :)
22:39:36 [sniffles]
molly: i only date people who validate
22:39:46 [Liam]
molly, never been to LA? lots of Valley daters there.
22:39:49 [molly]
sniffles that's a bar set quite high
22:39:49 [caribou]
molly :)
22:39:55 [karl]
it would be a bit like having voltage controller on every plug, and each time the frequency goes wrong having an alert for the user.
22:39:57 [ChrisWilson]
anne I think one of the lightning talks missed mentioning WHATWG
22:40:02 [karl]
not sure it would solve anything
22:40:05 [DanC_lap]
valid dater... badump bump... psh. will you be here all week, molly? ;-)
22:40:08 [rigo]
who has touched the accelerator
22:40:11 [molly]
Liam that makes me want to say OHMIGOD!
22:40:15 [rigo]
22:40:17 [Liam]
22:40:20 [anne]
ChrisWilson, I think that's a fair point
22:40:21 [rigo]
22:40:23 [glazou]
rigo: lol
22:40:24 [kingryan]
kingryan has joined #tp
22:40:34 [tantek]
essentially, validators were never updated to support namespaces. indeed.
22:40:36 [molly]
DanC yep, all week. But it's not me, it's the caption writers doing this
22:40:37 [gerald]
zakim, they're both next to .
22:40:37 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'they're both next to', gerald
22:40:40 [anne]
ChrisWilson, though I suppose it depends on how you define "panel"
22:40:50 [sniffles]
karl: there are better tools now that makes it easier to write valid code, you check as you go, rather than checking after everything is done
22:40:54 [KevinLawver]
"That tag fills me with only mild revulsion"
22:40:55 [olivier]
I wonder what percentage of the web content authors Tim thinks are using extensions, versus typos, or just bad code
22:41:01 [Hixie]
ChrisWilson: i'm gonna count the lightening talks as one panel. :-P
22:41:03 [tantek]
TimBL - how do you validate a document against multiple namespaces? where is that defined?
22:41:10 [molly]
so far we have Mike Crow Formats, Valid Dater and Mind Type
22:41:12 [chaals]
opera:config#UserPrefs|XMLValidate - but as Liam says,you have to be brave to turn it on...
22:41:24 [ChrisWilson]
hixie, anne - well then none.
22:41:27 [glazou]
molly: actually, there was
22:41:31 [chaals]
(or debugging)
22:41:33 [dom]
(the mobileOK checker does some of the tests TimBl is mentioning - e.g. checking that an image served as GIF is indeed gif)
22:41:34 [Liam]
chaals: cool, never is now!
22:41:35 [caribou]
mind sight?
22:41:36 [Hixie]
ChrisWilson: how times change
22:41:42 [karl]
sniffles: you are still talking about developers :)
22:41:53 [karl]
which is a very vocal minority
22:41:56 [fantasai]
tantek: hm.. take the projection of each indvidual namespace's tree and validate that?
22:42:06 [karl]
:) validation for web developers, I'm full for it
22:42:08 [chaals]
Liam, well, it was also a year ago...
22:42:21 [sniffles]
homages, wow (for home pages)
22:42:30 [molly]
I was worried about Mike Crow's Format, but what concerned me more was his mind type. It definitely did not bode well for a valid date.
22:42:34 [glazou]
hey, it's still a BIG tp meeting; howcome mentioned CSS versions on monday and he showed safari today :-)
22:42:40 [ChrisWilson]
he's actually speeding up. Noticeably
22:42:40 [Al]
eXtensible validation -- anybody for NVDL? Schematron?
22:42:58 [anne]
you actually want way more than simply DTD/RNG validation btw; for HTML you want to check for instance whether a table is done correctly (columns / rows are correct)
22:42:59 [KevinLawver]
Feel really bad for Pat Haney right now. ;)
22:43:06 [anne] does that for HTML 5
22:43:19 [anne]
(and attributes with special syntax, etc.)
22:43:21 [sniffles]
karl: well it's like understanding why the width of the car is what it is, right?
22:43:22 [tantek]
ChrisWilson, drink more caffeine. I can understand TimBL over here in PST no problem.
22:43:22 [notasausage]
KevinLawver: did I miss something?
22:43:26 [karl]
Al: the issue is ill-formed. It is not about validation in tools but more how validation is defined by the specification.
22:43:37 [dsinger]
has anyone validated tbl's own pages :-)?
22:43:41 [karl]
The troubles right now is that the specification are not written for authors.
22:43:48 [tantek]
22:43:49 [marcos]
serialization is not the DOM
22:43:51 [rigo]
dsinger, constantly
22:43:54 [s-mon]
captions uri again -
22:43:56 [tantek]
(both prev karl remarks)
22:43:59 [Steven]
All of tbl's pages get validated automatically, me thinks
22:44:04 [DanC_lap]
hear hear "view source" should give XML WF code.
22:44:05 [s-mon]
see if captioner can keep up.
22:44:08 [ChrisWilson]
tantek they suffered from a distinct shortage of non-decaf coffee at the break.
22:44:12 [Liam]
yes, although not fixed automatically :)
22:44:30 [ChrisWilson]
glazou - YES! Know anywhere?
22:44:32 [DanC_lap]
XML WF by default.
22:44:37 [Lachy]
49 errors!!!
22:44:38 [IanJ]
what is xml wg?
22:44:42 [IanJ]
xml wf?
22:44:44 [dom]
[I don't know if that's still the case, but Mozilla/Firefox used to do the contrary: save clean XHTML as tag soup, by removing closing tag in empty elements]
22:44:45 [shepazu]
we should right a validating tidy virus... ;)
22:44:48 [DanC_lap]
XML well formed.
22:44:49 [anne]
Lachy, lol
22:44:50 [IanJ]
22:44:56 [karl]
browsers - save as… not very useful for flickr
22:44:59 [glazou]
ChrisWilson: we had a good one with markus at legal sea food but that's not a very cool bar
22:45:02 [notasausage]
pointing out that while I work at Harvard, I don't work on
22:45:05 [rigo]
Speaker audio not clear due to accent ....
22:45:06 [Philip]
How would a reserialising 'save as' work with e.g. document.written ad scripts?
22:45:12 [cla]
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22:45:16 [anne]
DanC_lap, one webpage at a time? :)
22:45:23 [rigo]
poor captioners, to some guy from Oxford :)
22:45:34 [dsinger]
lachy: thx, lol
22:45:37 [arun]
@glazou @ChrisWilson: liked the place on Harvard Square.
22:45:38 [glazou]
chaals: COME ON, we don't need to push you for that :)
22:45:48 [ChrisWilson]
DanC_lap - I wrote a right-click context menu addin for IE_4_ that generated WF HTML (with XML-style end tags, this pre-dated XHTML 1.0) from the current page. In Javascript. Even did fixups.
22:45:51 [molly]
oh so classic!
22:45:55 [IanJ]
The captioner has fallen over sideways.
22:45:56 [marcos]
marcos has joined #tp
22:46:02 [myakura]
22:46:02 [molly]
Judy "The captioner cannot keep up with you"
22:46:07 [MikeSmith]
Janet scolding TimBL
22:46:08 [molly]
Tim "I was going slowly!"
22:46:11 [ChrisWilson]
glazou well I need dinner too
22:46:11 [dom]
22:46:16 [molly]
22:46:19 [ChrisWilson]
arun, where on Harvard square?
22:46:20 [Lachy]
someone point out those validation errors to Tim
22:46:22 [glazou]
JANET !!!!! Nobel Prize of DeTimblization :-)
22:46:26 [molly]
Janet "what are you gonna do, fire me?"
22:46:31 [dsinger]
we have a captioner validation error
22:46:39 [maxf]
let's see how long timbl speaks slowly this time.
22:46:46 [KevinLawver]
one man's overload is one man's happy medium
22:46:52 [maxf]
ooh, he's beating his record
22:46:54 [anne]
this is awesome :)
22:46:55 [ChrisWilson]
molly - :) She doesn't have any fear left. Not that she had much to begin with.
22:46:57 [plh]
plh has joined #tp
22:46:59 [glazou]
hey this is not tbl, it's an imposter !!!!
22:47:07 [IanJ]
22:47:09 [josema]
tim, the storyteller :)
22:47:09 [notasausage]
this doesn't feel right at all... TBL needs to speed up and ignore the captioner
22:47:11 [LeeF]
I feel like I've entered an alternate universe.
22:47:12 [ChrisWilson]
oww, tim, my brain hurts.
22:47:14 [marcos]
they work fine for mivroformsts too
22:47:15 [KevinLawver]
This is why the descendent selector is so important.
22:47:17 [JimM]
Hey, I can follow this now!
22:47:18 [DanC_lap]
it's by design that microformat class names are in the same space as css. quite handy, in fact.
22:47:21 [rati]
rati has joined #tp
22:47:22 [molly]
okay, is Tim in the real world
22:47:22 [ht]
Glazou, right, who is this guy, and what has he done with TimBL!!!
22:47:32 [jgraham_]
jgraham_ has joined #tp
22:47:33 [molly]
i mean NO ONE speaks this slowly ;-)
22:47:37 [r12a-again]
janet, tell him to speed up a bit
22:47:42 [maxf]
22:47:46 [PHB]
Actually, there is a remote control slider widget for Tim, I just dialed it down
22:47:47 [sniffles]
i'm having trouble stringing the sentences together
22:47:48 [DanC_lap]
oh... now he's into the pragmatics of it... author's choice vs consumer's choice
22:47:51 [molly]
" a special holy place " - that's your wiki, Tantek
22:47:51 [Dennis]
Dennis has joined #tp
22:48:00 [plh]
that's Tim at 100fps played at 30fps
22:48:09 [Al]
Kark, fantasai's remark about putting expectations in declarative, constraint form makes specifying more subtle and effective
22:48:21 [skw]
we should try Timbl on speed as well!
22:48:29 [tlr]
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22:48:34 [karl]
there's a missing bullet in this slide: The XHTML specs defined a strict validation
22:48:36 [tlr]
rrsagent, pointer?
22:48:36 [RRSAgent]
22:48:45 [karl]
extensibility is great
22:48:55 [karl]
but if it is not defined in the spec
22:49:13 [Lachy]
canvas and svg aren't competing technologies
22:49:18 [KevinLawver]
Bi-canvas-svg curious?
22:49:19 [DanC_lap]
oh... "no dtd" is the 1st error on timbl's home page. that might be a little bit of civil disobedience, so I'm not going to undo without checking with timbl
22:49:27 [dsinger]
what's all this with vs.?
22:49:40 [shepazu]
all browsers but one.......
22:49:49 [anne]
yeah, I'm not sure why it's vs either
22:49:54 [molly]
dsinger baiting for combative communication?
22:49:55 [anne]
<canvas> is bitmap after all
22:50:03 [glazou]
ChrisWilson: i was serious about the mojito
22:50:06 [IanJ]
Anne, how about a blog entry on why it's not svg v. canvas?
22:50:20 [IanJ]
It seems there's a perception of "v."
22:50:27 [IanJ]
but if that's not the case, would love to have some discussion on that.
22:50:33 [IanJ]
thanks anne
22:50:33 [dbaron]
some algorithms process trees bottom-up, I'm sure
22:50:34 [chaals]
There have been some pretty fanboy-ish discussions around from time to time about SVG vs Canvas. I think they have mostly faded though, no?
22:50:44 [ChrisWilson]
glazou so am i
22:50:44 [dbaron]
(maybe instruction selection in a compiler?)
22:50:48 [shepazu]
no reason for not using both, the SVG WG has use cases for canvas
22:50:53 [Lachy]
IanJ, someone has already written a comparrison of canvas and svg
22:50:56 [karl]
v. is for luV.
22:50:57 [Lachy]
I'll see if I can find it
22:50:57 [danz]
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22:50:57 [IanJ]
ok, great
22:51:03 [IanJ]
would love pointers for the meeting record on that.
22:51:08 [DanC_lap]
IanJ, indeed, I invited SVG folks to look at canvas when canvas discussion came up in public-html, and I didn't hear the slightest "you're doing it all wrong" gripe.
22:51:10 [Philip] ?
22:51:11 [ChrisWilson]
Lachy and it probably says "they're for different purposes," right?
22:51:18 [IanJ]
thanks DanC
22:51:24 [Steven]
He's getting faster
22:51:28 [IanJ]
So I wonder where TBL is getting his sigh from.
22:51:33 [anne]
IanJ, address that
22:51:34 [Lachy]
22:51:37 [anne]
22:51:41 [Lachy]
22:52:01 [anne]
all from WHATWG fanboys too
22:52:02 [IanJ]
thanks muchly for the uri
22:52:24 [DanC_lap]
what do the html5 validators say about timbl's homepage?
22:52:48 [shepazu]
that blog entry is pretty biased...
22:53:09 [anne]
22:53:15 [anne]
DanC_lap, 13 errors
22:53:22 [karl]
shepazu: would you like to write one "unbiased" on the Q&A weblog?
22:53:25 [shepazu]
.... it actually says nice things about SVG ;)
22:53:27 [KevinLawver]
He's speeding up.
22:53:30 [anne]
(with HTML5 override set btw)
22:53:33 [IanJ]
Or replying in the other blog
22:53:43 [fantasai]
KevinLawver: yeah, I think he's at about normal-people speed now
22:53:46 [marcos]
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22:53:48 [glazou]
KevinLawver: only because of the gesture
22:53:50 [mjs]
mjs has joined #tp
22:53:52 [KevinLawver]
He's normalized!
22:54:21 [IanJ]
Tim loses his super-powers at this speed, however. Please nobody hit him with a steel bar in the neck.
22:54:23 [anne]
DanC_lap, I think he disagrees with the errors though, because he's proposing that these don't flag errors
22:54:31 [glazou]
IanJ: lol
22:54:34 [molly]
he really does seem to lose his super powers when slowed down
22:54:43 [Hideki]
Hideki has joined #tp
22:54:46 [sniffles]
quick, someone, a red cape!
22:54:47 [molly]
I prefer him in his natural manner
22:55:16 [danz]
danz has joined #tp
22:55:17 [molly]
tantek that would be INSANE
22:55:17 [KevinLawver]
I think the complaint is that his normal speed makes on-the-fly translation difficult.
22:55:19 [anne] also compares <canvas> and SVG
22:55:28 [tantek]
molly, that's basically what TimBL just theorized.
22:55:30 [Norm]
Norm has joined #tp
22:55:31 [PHB]
its the first thing you get taught at media school... rate control
22:55:58 [John_Boyer]
Ian, I can't see anyone hitting him with a steel bar in the neck because they would be in too much pain due to the steel bar in the neck to hit TimBL.
22:56:14 [John_Boyer]
22:56:18 [glazou]
the 1st thing you get taught at CS school is how to put a max of data in the shortest burst :)
22:56:49 [Philip]
Works quite well until the audio buffer runs out
22:56:59 [janet]
phb, the first thing you learn at media school is to stop talking without intent.
22:57:26 [karl]
tantek: how the OpenDoc system was working in Mac OS 8 ?
22:57:26 [ChrisL]
wow janet, can we send politicians to media school, then?
22:57:28 [vivien]
DBPedia ->
22:57:28 [John_Boyer]
The one that distinguishes hitting him in the neck with a steel bar! :-)
22:57:31 [molly]
the first thing I learned at media school was know your audience
22:57:38 [molly]
the second thing was know yourself
22:57:42 [janet]
chrisl, if only :)
22:57:50 [glazou]
did not
22:57:50 [ChrisWilson]
Philip so what you do is you hit pause and go get a mojito first, then you increase playback speed
22:58:12 [tantek]
karl, and we all know how well that worked out (not).
22:58:12 [myakura]
cdf,,, channel definition format ?-)
22:58:21 [chaals]
22:58:26 [KevinLawver]
The third is never get in front of a camera with parsley in your teeth.
22:58:39 [shepazu]
Compound Document Format
22:58:40 [IanJ]
foaf plus openid wiki page:
22:58:41 [ChrisWilson]
glazou is right
22:58:58 [molly]
KevinLawver or mint leaves, to keep in step with the mojito theme
22:59:09 [glazou]
ChrisWilson: I am an early adopter :)
22:59:12 [DanC_lap]
re foaf+openid...
22:59:16 [shepazu] <- CDF and WICD
22:59:22 [judy]
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22:59:37 [glazou]
caribou: moi franais moi do not know pas understand :)
22:59:41 [KevinLawver]
"Double bus" - so you can get hit TWICE.
22:59:58 [ChrisL]
22:59:59 [dsinger]
brits and double-deckers, sigh :-)
23:00:28 [molly]
but this isn't a double decker, but a side by side
23:00:38 [glazou]
ChrisL: took me a while to understand when my first son kept saying "Keskifsbi ?"
23:00:41 [molly]
bus + bus
23:00:55 [IanJ]
TBL: Give me the data raw.
23:01:01 [glazou]
ChrisL: qu'est-ce qui fait ce bruit ?
23:01:17 [KevinLawver]
The wheels on the bus2 go "RDF, RDF, RDF", the wheels on the bus2 go "RDF, RDF, RDF" aaaaall through the town.
23:01:25 [ChrisL]
23:01:30 [DanC_lap]
re "multiple namespaces works in RDF", the tipping point for me personally was and
23:01:31 [molly]
okay, Kevin, I think it's time we officially 86'd you from the room
23:01:35 [molly]
go set up the bar for us
23:01:38 [glazou]
ChrisL: he was really young
23:01:47 [charlton]
the web is the bus
23:01:52 [dsinger]
two-bus, is that Bus2.0?
23:01:53 [KevinLawver]
23:02:05 [glazou]
two layers of bus, that's a british imperial bus
23:02:07 [DanC_lap]
yes, verifyable is critical, tantek.
23:02:09 [molly]
no, no, bus<sup>2</sup>
23:02:14 [LeeF]
dsinger, weren't you listening to raman? It's Bus^2
23:02:21 [tantek]
HTML blog posts tend to be more reliable than RSS entries.
23:02:30 [KevinLawver]
a mashup using data from one source is not mashup.
23:02:32 [dsinger]
i thought maybe 2^^bus
23:02:32 [Steven]
double-decker in en-en
23:02:33 [tantek]
(empirical results of studying millions of blogs/feeds at Technorati)
23:02:46 [Liam]
tantek: more reliable in the sense of more likely to say true things?
23:02:47 [DanC_lap]
that's why timbl's working to make RDF browsable; i've been a naysayer for generic RDF browsing, but I have to admit I'm starting to get it.
23:02:51 [glazou]
Steven: ah yes, thx
23:02:54 [tantek]
Liam, correct.
23:02:57 [molly]
if you get on the web 2.0 bus and miss a turn, do you end up in the real or unreal world?
23:02:58 [Liam]
23:03:02 [r12a-again]
23:03:10 [tantek]
more likely to be accurate, to not be out of date, to not be corrupted, etc.
23:03:19 [wellsk]
wellsk has left #TP
23:03:22 [tantek]
*because* more human eyes have had a chance to look at it
23:03:22 [Steven]
23:03:22 [DanC_lap]
timbl's working to make RDF browseable (tabulator) and I've been working to get RDF out of HTML (GRDDL).
23:03:37 [tantek]
just like more eyes on open source find more bugs in the code as compared to closed source
23:03:39 [Liam]
so I should make an HTML version of my RSS feeds to become more trustworthy?
23:03:49 [glazou]
#timbl:not(:active) { speech-rate: initial; }
23:03:51 [molly]
23:03:52 [ChrisWilson]
Liam it might help.
23:03:56 [kingryan]
23:04:44 [DanC_lap]
go raman! let's stick with text/html
23:04:59 [KevinLawver]
20-20 hindsight = the rearview mirror on bus2
23:05:01 [tantek]
23:05:13 [molly]
oh boy talk about going to the heart of the matter
23:05:21 [molly]
re: MIME types
23:05:22 [dbaron]
I agree with raman that it was a mistake, but I think it's too late to fix.
23:05:23 [tantek]
XML mime types for the public web were wishful thinking
23:05:27 [Rich]
Rich has joined #tp
23:05:39 [IanJ]
TBL: Based on the philosophy of a smooth slope, my current feeling is to encourage people, that when they serve text/html, that it be valid.
23:05:46 [Lachy]
XML doesn't need to use XML, it just needs sensible and lenient error handling introduced into the XML mime types
23:05:50 [DanC_lap]
go timbl too... serve XML well-formed stuff as text/html
23:05:52 [danz]
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23:05:56 [dbaron]
It would have required that browsers parsed following XML rules before authors started writing XML content.
23:05:57 [Lachy]
s/use XML/use text/html/
23:06:00 [plh]
me would argue it should be application/soup
23:06:09 [glazou]
or drink/mojito
23:06:12 [sniffles]
23:06:13 [molly]
encourage browsers to recognize all mime types +++
23:06:18 [IanJ]
TBL: And we should encourage browsers to recognize all mime types defined in w3c specs.
23:06:19 [ChrisWilson]
23:06:21 [KevinLawver]
23:06:32 [jkirk2_]
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23:06:32 [dsinger]
mime-type + plugin-dispatch -> registration wars, alas
23:06:32 [ChrisWilson]
well, molly, we say Accept:*/*
23:06:34 [Liam]
if HTML is a "rendering language', image/html
23:06:35 [tantek]
application/xhtml+xml has not been well adopted by browsers because the processing model for it is insufficiently defined as compared to the de facto processing model for text/html.
23:06:57 [glazou]
I accept drink/* at this moment
23:07:03 [chaals]
tantek, eyes on bugs don't necessarily find them.
23:07:09 [ht]
"Heaping scorn is good" TimBL
23:07:10 [IanJ]
TBL: We should get ISPs to serve content with proper mime types.
23:07:16 [glazou]
and i refuse totally food/chicken !
23:07:18 [charlton]
@molly it doesn't matter where w/web 2.0 ;-)
23:07:23 [tantek]
chaals, more on eyes = higher probability of finding bugs = higher quality in the macro
23:07:28 [ChrisWilson]
tantek, I'd argue a/x+x has not been well adopted by browsers because few people serve it, because IE doesn't accept it.
23:07:40 [Liam]
+1, Chris
23:07:42 [KevinLawver]
application/xhtml+xml completely violates the "be liberal in what you accept" ideal.
23:07:42 [plinss]
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23:07:49 [IanJ]
23:07:51 [r12a-again]
s/Heaping scorn is good/Heaping scorn is good in this case/ ht
23:07:56 [ChrisWilson]
kevinLawver yeah, that was a mistake.
23:08:04 [tantek]
ChrisWilson, IE doesn't accept it because we *tried* to implement it and ran into *numerous* areas where its processing model was unspecified, and eventually gave up.
23:08:04 [ChrisWilson]
I mean the ideal
23:08:04 [Liam]
(should we clap s l o w l y ?)
23:08:10 [DS]
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23:08:11 [ChrisWilson]
23:08:11 [Lachy]
XML5 should fix the error handling :-)
23:08:12 [glazou]
Liam: lol
23:08:22 [KevinLawver]
Which is why no one who has markup from other sources will eeeever serve content with it.
23:08:22 [glazou]
23:08:24 [mauro]
23:08:30 [dbaron]
So how does MIME type dispatch interact with top-down tree-based dispatch?
23:08:33 [marie]
23:08:50 [ht]
DBaron, yes, that is the tricky question
23:08:52 [Liam]
dbaron: poorly
23:08:53 [charlton]
23:08:56 [ChrisL]
marie ++
23:08:58 [glazou]
marie: you drink pizzas ?
23:09:01 [rigo]
23:09:09 [charlton]
@marie or daisies?
23:09:10 [Dennis]
Dennis has left #tp
23:09:15 [ChrisWilson]
left hand mojito, right hand margarita
23:09:17 [mauro]
-> post meeting survey
23:09:27 [DanC_lap]
re now or later.. you can do both.
23:09:27 [ChrisL]
yes she drinks bloody cheezy maries
23:09:28 [RogerC]
Where was Raman sitting??
23:09:31 [molly]
ChrisWilson pitchers, right?
23:09:33 [DanC_lap]
re now or later.. you can do both, with WBS
23:09:35 [tlr]
+1 on caipirinha
23:09:36 [MikeSmith]
see you on 16th floor friends
23:09:39 [molly]
RogerC: right behind Tim on the dais
23:09:39 [PHB]
PHB has left #tp
23:09:39 [ChrisWilson]
molly yar
23:09:42 [glazou]
23:09:45 [tlr]
s/+1 on caipirinha//
23:09:50 [dsinger]
raman was by left mike
23:09:53 [RogerC]
No -- where was he sitting before his talk?>
23:10:00 [RogerC]
Where is his computer?
23:10:06 [tantek]
thanks to everyone for enabling the remote participation so much with the audio stream, IRC channel, and of course the surprising Skype call from TimBL.
23:10:16 [molly]
awesome to have you here Tantek
23:10:18 [molly]
Thank you!!!
23:10:27 [glazou]
yves j'ai connu une polonaise qui en prenait au petit-djeuner ;-)
23:10:29 [molly]
(and fun to channel you for a moment, what an honor :))
23:10:33 [Yves]
glazou ;)
23:10:39 [KevinLawver]
See those here corporeally upstairs in a little bit.
23:10:42 [ChrisL]
tantek, sorry you couldn't be here irl
23:10:55 [dsinger]
by the mike stage right or auditorium left, correct?
23:11:01 [couderk1]
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23:11:07 [dsinger]
the floor mike, that is
23:11:15 [RogerC]
That's where Raman was?
23:11:19 [molly]
raman is just behind me, I'm to the left facing the stage he's in the second row
23:11:34 [RogerC]
23:11:36 [tantek]
for the next couple of days
23:11:41 [charlton]
hear hear
23:11:52 [dsinger]
yes, raman was sat with his dog and his backpack adjacent to the mike stand on our left
23:12:01 [dsinger]
if I have the right guy :-)
23:12:06 [FabienG]
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23:12:10 [glazou]
23:12:11 [caribou]
s/his dog/hubbell
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23:12:21 [mauro]
23:12:22 [molly]
he's w/ tim now
23:12:23 [janet]
thanks, tim
23:12:26 [mauro]
TPAC adjourned
23:12:26 [Zakim]
23:12:38 [mauro]
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23:12:49 [John_Boyer]
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23:12:52 [fantasai]
so tantek, can you point me in the right direction on collecting blog posts?
23:13:02 [Lachy]
is there going to be audio stream for tomorrow as well?
23:13:03 [s-mon]
23:13:09 [Zakim]
- +1.309.329.aabb
23:13:10 [tantek]
fantasai - what do you mean by collecting blog posts?
23:13:12 [dom]
(or ping Dom)
23:13:19 [s-mon]
23:13:33 [charlton]
cheers s-mon
23:13:38 [fantasai]
tantek: I want to pull together blog posts that talk about css spec development
23:13:41 [kingryan]
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23:13:46 [dom]
werewolves game will in Revere B room, FWIW
23:14:03 [fantasai]
tantek: and I'm too techno-illiterate to know how to do it :)
23:14:16 [gregt]
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23:14:22 [fantasai]
tantek: I want to aggregate, CSSWG blog, together with individual posts from other people
23:14:33 [tantek]
fantasai start with
23:14:39 [laurent]
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23:14:50 [tantek]
that will give you all blog post references to all W3C specs/drafts
23:15:01 [tantek]
and from there you can filter for references to CSS specs in particular
23:15:34 [fantasai]
tantek: that'll give me people discussing how to use CSS
23:15:39 [fantasai]
tantek: tutorials, etc
23:16:01 [fantasai]
tantek: and not posts like
23:16:17 [Zakim]
- +1.972.296.aagg
23:16:38 [fantasai]
tantek: searching for css3 on technorati also has problems: posts missing, duplicates, lots of noise
23:16:42 [tantek]
fantasai, you can also try:
23:16:51 [Kai]
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23:17:37 [fantasai]
tantek: search is fine if I'm looking for things to read myself
23:17:55 [fantasai]
tantek: but not if I want to present a running blog conversation for the world to participate in
23:18:06 [tantek]
fantasai, that's what tags are for
23:18:17 [tantek]
so pick a tag, like CSS3, blog about it, then use it
23:18:34 [tantek]
23:20:04 [Zakim]
23:21:28 [Zakim]
W3C_TP()8:00AM has ended
23:21:30 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.727.541.aaaa, Captioner, MeetingRoom, Matt, Ivan, +1.309.329.aabb, Terry_Morris, +1.972.296.aadd, +1.512.219.aaee, +1.512.219.aaff, +1.972.296.aagg,
23:21:32 [Zakim]
... +1.720.519.aahh, +1.720.519.aaii
23:22:14 [fantasai]
tantek: k, I'll look into that :)
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