XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference -- 19 Sep 2007

Announcements

<scribe> ACTION: Steven to make a reg page for Boston FtF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/19-xhtml-minutes.html#action01]

Steven: Note we are meeting Wed/Thu/Fri

<scribe> ACTION: Steven to ensure there is a chair for next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/19-xhtml-minutes.html#action02]

Steven: I can't be here next week, at a W3C.de day

Do not deprecate the profile attribute (request from GRDDL WG)

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Sep/0008

Steven: The GRDDL people would rather we kept @profile
... but the problem is that even if we kept it, people would still be able to use rel="profile"

Shane: I'm not willing to give up rel="profile"; that would be a mistake
... there is also a problem is they are co-opting @profile

Steven: Do the different uses, like microformats and GRDDL, bite each other?
... can they work in combination?

Mark: I think they have their own URL in the profile attribute as one of the urls
... and then seeing that they know they need to process the document
... then they use rels (maybe) to discover the transformation
... They use namespaces
... there's no use of profile at all in the example I'm looking at

<markbirbeck> http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/#grddl-xml

<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
     xmlns:grddl="http://www.w3.org/2003/g/data-view#"
     grddl:transformation="glean_title.xsl">
<head>

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/getAuthor.xsl

(2. Adding GRDDL to well-formed XML)

Mark: It just happens that they used xhtml for their xml example

http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/#grddl-xhtml

4. Using GRDDL with valid XHTML

href="http://www.w3.org/2000/06/dc-extract/dc-extract.xsl" />

Shane: If we were nice, we would add 'transformation' to our list of rels

Steven: Good idea
... and @grddl:transformation to the html element
... Why not use the grddl namespace declaration to detect a grddl document?

Mark: At the least we should be saying that @profile is too flaky
... it doesn't give you the connection between the profile url and the rel values
... it doesn't give you anything actually

Shane: We ought to have worked with them to produce a rel="grddl"
... But it is already a Rec

Mark: Are we going to preserve this in XHTML2
... they argue yes for backwards compatibility
... but it is not an issue really

Shane: Let me play devil's advocate
... they want the same processor to work on HTML and XHTML2

Mark: But other document types don't have the profile attribute
... why should we?
... We should use the other technique in XHTML2
... We should reply "Given you have another mechanism, why should we use the legacy mechanism, which is flaky anyway?"

Shane: Say it in a different way. "Hey, we are generic XML, and we'll even build a GRDDL module for you, so you can use the generic mechanism"

Mark: We need to think about this for RDFa too

Shane: Since rdfa takes a CURIE in rel, it just works
... you have to devclare the GRDDL namespace, but they do that anyway

Mark: And in XHTML+RDFa they should be using the generic method too
... rel="grddl:transformation"

Steven: But isn't their pain point that they want to be able to identify a GRDDLE doc from the root, or otherwise head element?

Shane: The GRDDL namespace should be good enough for them

<scribe> ACTION: Steven to reply to GRDDL people about techniques for identifying GRDDL docs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/19-xhtml-minutes.html#action03]

<markbirbeck> The spec says "This method [using @profile] is suitable for use with valid XHTML documents which are constrained by an XML DTD." In other words they are saying that this is _not_ the preferred method.

<markbirbeck> So it seems legitimate to me to say that we feel no need to try to support the @profile technique, in situations where the @xmlns technique is supported.

Mark: Their doc does seem to say that the profile technique is a fallback when the XML technique isn't suitable, so that backs up our position

<markbirbeck> For example: "To accomodate the DTD-based syntax of XHTML[XHTML], which precludes using attributes from foreign namespaces, we use http://www.w3.org/2003/g/data-view as a metadata profile (cf. section 7.4.4.3 Meta data profiles of [HTML4])."

Missing element declarations from XHTML Modularization 1.1

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0029

Shane: These are defined as far as I know. Let me check
... Yes, in the frame module

Mark: Maybe they are missing in the schema, but not in the spec

Shane: Oh, he's right
... we need to reissue ruby
... oh wait
... they are in here too
... oh, he maybe right

<scribe> ACTION: Shane to fix missing elements in M12N [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/19-xhtml-minutes.html#action04]

<scribe> ACTION: Shane to reply to ht [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/19-xhtml-minutes.html#action05]

<scribe> ACTION: Group to reissue Ruby with schema additions [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/19-xhtml-minutes.html#action06]

XHTML Basic 1.1 DTD declares hr but it cannot be included in any element

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0030

Steven: The abstract says that the poresentation module is included

Shane: And we list hr too

<!ENTITY % InlPres.class

"| %tt.qname; | %i.qname; | %b.qname; | %big.qname;

| %small.qname; | %sub.qname; | %sup.qname;" >

<ShaneM> b, big, hr, i, small, sub, sup, tt

Shane: I'll link it in

Steven: This will have to be a CR comment

<scribe> ACTION: Shane to link hr into Basic 1.1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/19-xhtml-minutes.html#action07]

<scribe> ACTION: Steven to reply to hr comment, and make it a CR comment [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/19-xhtml-minutes.html#action08]

Steven: Didn't you have a testfest revently Yam?

Yam: Starting tomorrow
... and November in Slovenia
... but I'll check

Error in http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-xhtml1-20020801

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0031

http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-xhtml1-20020801/#h-4.8

Shane: Well, this is a technique to get round bugs in browsers
... we shouldn't document that
... we use this technique too
... but it shouldn't be part of a spec

<yamx> OMA test fest 20 was from Sep 7 to Sep 14, so I will check the test reports.

<scribe> ACTION: Steven to reply to script+cdata mail, saying we don't want to document it [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/19-xhtml-minutes.html#action09]

role

Steven: I have requested a last call publication
... awaiting a reply about a suitable date
... when that comes in, we can publish with that date

Modularization

Steven: We have gone through last call, so we should move to CR with this
... do we have a DoC?

<scribe> ACTION: Shane to ensure we have a M12N DoC [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/19-xhtml-minutes.html#action10]

<scribe> ACTION: Steven to take M12N to CR [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/19-xhtml-minutes.html#action11]

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XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference

19 Sep 2007

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